Ben Simmons wants out of Philadelphia

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Cellar-Door

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Showing up and being difficult was always the path to forcing Morey's hand re timing of a trade. The question in my mind was whether Simmons could be that confrontational given his personality.

Sounds like he tried it for one day, albeit in his own style, by being "disengaged." Then, the team responded quickly and publically in an effort to nip it in the bud. If Simmons can keep it up, he will get out of their sooner rather than later. By being present he has the opportunity to be a constant ongoing distraction, in a way that can torpedo a season.
Also, he has a good shot to get paid. They can suspend and fine him, but the union is gonna file a grievance, he shows up to practice, there isn't really a clear way to determine what "adequate effort in practice" is under the CBA, so he'll argue that they just don't want to pay him because he wants to be traded and they haven't agreed to a deal yet.
 

Swedgin

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Simmons is handling it perfectly for a guy who wants to get traded. He's going to force their hand by playing coach killer.

How can you really prove a guy isn't "engaged" or "dogging it?" Keep suspending him for a game? The union will fight it eventually.

It will get to the point where his relationship with Doc can't be fixed, so it's him or Doc. They CAN"T have him undermining Doc Rivers. Doc will lose the team very f'n quickly.
Proving it is not the issue. Nor is the Union fighting it. Practices are recorded pretty routinely. I cannot imagine the Sixers aren't doing it in this context.

The issue for the Sixers is the distraction and disruption. If he can keep it up (which will include doing it in games - not just practices), then he gets traded or paid to stay home.
 

Cellar-Door

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Who would give up a king's ransom for this guy, tho?
I mean, plenty of players have forced their way out of places they didn't want to be, and the team that got them was happy with it (Harden, Kawhi, AD) his replying to the PHI attempt to play hardball with hardball of his own isn't going to scare off a team that likes him, if anything it might make them think they can get a bargain. And that's Morey's issue, he thinks he can get the most for Simmons if he is playing, but misses that Simmons causing problems makes him less valuable than Simmons doing nothing because teams interested think that the longer he's there getting suspended and lazing through practice, the more it hurts the team.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Proving it is not the issue. Nor is the Union fighting it. Practices are recorded pretty routinely. I cannot imagine the Sixers aren't doing it in this context.

The issue for the Sixers is the distraction and disruption. If he can keep it up (which will include doing it in games - not just practices), then he gets traded or paid to stay home.
I'd be shocked if the union didn't file a grievance over "disengagement." It would have to be some damning video.
 

djbayko

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They did, but part of that seems to be because of how PHI handled it. PHI could have quietly traded him this offseason. They didn't because they thought his value was at it's lowest, and that they had some kind of leverage, so Simmons is showing them that... nope you don't have any... okay, you want to fine me... I'll show up, but you can't force me to practice or play hard, and we both know it, and for all the talk about how you want me here, if I went out and played 100% and got hurt, you're in even worse shape.
Yup. And now - amazingly - their leverage is even lower than before. What a stupid mess Morey has caused. Whatever offers they had during the summer may have taken 20% haircuts at this point.
 

johnmd20

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I mean, plenty of players have forced their way out of places they didn't want to be, and the team that got them was happy with it (Harden, Kawhi, AD)
Those guys didn't famously come up really small in important playoff games.

Simmons was a liability against Atlanta. I don't know, I just can't imagine a team would want to lay out for a guy unwilling to shoot or dunk in the most important games. And a guy who can't hit FTs either.
 

EvilEmpire

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Also, he has a good shot to get paid. They can suspend and fine him, but the union is gonna file a grievance, he shows up to practice, there isn't really a clear way to determine what "adequate effort in practice" is under the CBA, so he'll argue that they just don't want to pay him because he wants to be traded and they haven't agreed to a deal yet.
They probably don't have a choice, but I'm not sure the union really wants a ruling on something like that when everyone knows that Simmons is screwing around. Better not to ask questions that you really don't want answers to. But again, they probably won't have a choice.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Those guys didn't famously come up really small in important playoff games.

Simmons was a liability against Atlanta. I don't know, I just can't imagine a team would want to lay out for a guy unwilling to shoot or dunk in the most important games. And a guy who can't hit FTs either.
Yeah, Miami sure hated getting Shaq for Odom and friends because he couldn't hit FTs.

And didn't Harden come up small in important playoff games?
 

Cellar-Door

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They probably don't have a choice, but I'm not sure the union really wants a ruling on something like that when everyone knows that Simmons is screwing around. Better not to ask questions that you really don't want answers to. But again, they probably won't have a choice.
I think they might be pretty okay with it, because I think they'll win, Bobby Marks is saying that owners have been talking about how to address hold-in situations like this in the next CBA, which tells me they aren't at all confident they can stop it. And the union will get concessions for adding those rules, so really they're fine.

lol, Embiid be a good recruiter of FAs.
Embiid and Doc are gonna be AMAZING as they rush to throw each other under the bus when they don't win a title the next two years.
 

Swedgin

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I'd be shocked if the union didn't file a grievance over "disengagement." It would have to be some damning video.
My guess is that if Doc went so far as to throw him out of practice, it's pretty damning. Moreover, any arbitrator is going to be aware of the larger context in which Simmons' behavior is occurring.

But honestly I think this is besides the point. Either Simmons or the Sixers will back down. Either Simmons does the bare minimum or the Sixers pay him to stay at home. Or perhaps most likely of all, he will begin to experience some hamstring tightness in the very near future.
 

johnmd20

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Yeah, Miami sure hated getting Shaq for Odom and friends because he couldn't hit FTs.

And didn't Harden come up small in important playoff games?
Your argument is Shaq?

And Harden at least tried in the playoff games he failed in. Simmons gave up.

Did I watch a different Atlanta Philly series than other people?
 

Mooch

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This is the most glorious trainwreck pre-season for Celtics opponents that I can ever remember. If Embiid takes a swing at Simmons sometime this year, I would not be at all surprised.
 

Cesar Crespo

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My guess is that if Doc went so far as to throw him out of practice, it's pretty damning. Moreover, any arbitrator is going to be aware of the larger context in which Simmons' behavior is occurring.

But honestly I think this is besides the point. Either Simmons or the Sixers will back down. Either Simmons does the bare minimum or the Sixers pay him to stay at home. Or perhaps most likely of all, he will begin to experience some hamstring tightness in the very near future.
Yeah, he's hitting the DL or being traded. If he's going to be "disengaged" (which to me sounds like tuning out the coach and other players), they can't have him around. He would be toxic.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Your argument is Shaq?

And Harden at least tried in the playoff games he failed in. Simmons gave up.

Did I watch a different Atlanta Philly series than other people?
You didn't. You just think it's far more predictable/meaningful than most.
 

djbayko

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"At this point, I don't care about that man"

The NBA media is so fortunate. The content that Simmons and Irving create is unparalleled.
Sounds like there is an important missing comma in that quote. But he's obviously been fed up with Simmons for a long time, so it's not like it makes much of a difference.
 

Cesar Crespo

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The guy is toxic. Present tense.
Well, he's done it once. I'm assuming he's going to do it again and the suspension means shit to him, so yeah.

I've said all along he's going to be traded. Players hold all the power. Although now we are close to/at the point where even if he wanted to come back, he couldn't.
 

Cellar-Door

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My guess is that if Doc went so far as to throw him out of practice, it's pretty damning. Moreover, any arbitrator is going to be aware of the larger context in which Simmons' behavior is occurring.

But honestly I think this is besides the point. Either Simmons or the Sixers will back down. Either Simmons does the bare minimum or the Sixers pay him to stay at home. Or perhaps most likely of all, he will begin to experience some hamstring tightness in the very near future.
Maybe this time, just to show he could, but there are lots of ways to make practice suck and clearly make less effort than is of any use to the team and get paid. Sounds like this time he was just like... yeah I don't want to do that drill. But next time he'll just go and do the drill at 1/3 speed, making it useless for the others involved but not refusing, which means he likely gets paid, and honestly disrupts practice just as much.
 

johnmd20

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You didn't. You just think it's far more predictable/meaningful than most.
Simmons was on a middling LSU team that did nothing. He put up numbers in an environment that didn't matter.

Now he's been on a Philly team that always underachieves. Simmons can't shoot and won't shoot. He took 0 shots in the 4th quarter of the last four games of the season.

I feel like his resume is stacking up as a guy who is unbelievably talented but not hat interested in competing and winning. I don't see why a team would pay up for this toxicity. Philly is stuck.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Simmons was on a middling LSU team that did nothing. He put up numbers in an environment that didn't matter.

Now he's been on a Philly team that always underachieves. Simmons can't shoot and won't shoot. He took 0 shots in the 4th quarter of the last four games of the season.

I feel like his resume is stacking up as a guy who is unbelievably talented but not hat interested in competing and winning. I don't see why a team would pay up for this toxicity. Philly is stuck.
Only one team can win the title so I don't know what underachieving really means.

Simmons reminds me of another guy personality wise who did just enough to get paid. Put up the 20/10. Derrick Coleman.

I don't think any team is going to "pay up" for Simmons. I think he's going to be traded for 50 cents to the dollar and the team getting him will be pretty happy. His return will be similar to what Seattle got for Ray Allen or the Cavs got for Kyrie (essentially a lottery pick).
 

moondog80

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Philly doing what they have to do, I guess, but they're not exactly helping his trade value. I feel like I'd just say he had the flu, call up whoever has the biggest offer on the table at the moment, and see if you can get maybe one more protected pick before just accepting whatever they will give.
 
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Van Everyman

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"At this point, I don't care about that man"

The NBA media is so fortunate. The content that Simmons and Irving create is unparalleled.
Though I wouldn’t say it’s particularly good for the league to have multiple superstars refusing to play for stupid and/or selfish reasons. I’m all for players reshuffling the power disparity with shithead owners and pulling some of the strings. And players have been holding out for money for years. But sooner or later the increasing drumbeat of NBA players acting like entitled divas will have an effect on how the league is perceived which I don’t think will be helpful for anyone in the sport.
 

the moops

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There is shit going south, and then there is whatever the hell is going on in Philly.

I still think plenty of teams will line up to trade a pick and an overpriced shooter for him
 

EvilEmpire

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Yeah. I said it before, but the best thing Simmons could have done was to show up and play hard until a deal got done some time after December. I wonder what Klutch is telling him.

Edit: Yeah, he'll still get traded, but being professional probably increases the trade options some and makes it just a little bit easier for Philly to work out a deal a bit faster.
 

Cellar-Door

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View: https://twitter.com/SIChrisMannix/status/1450510592926752770?s=20


This is exactly how I feel. How in the world is this HELPING Ben Simmons get to another team while he's torpedoing interest around the league with this act?
Remember, when a league exec texts a reporter with a quote that he then publishes, he did it for a reason. Anonymously talking about how a guy has no value is exactly what you do when you're trying to get a distressed asset for cheap. There are plenty of teams who would be happy to get Ben Simmons tomorrow for the tight price.

Yeah. I said it before, but the best thing Simmons could have done was to show up and play hard until a deal got done some time after December. I wonder what Klutch is telling him.
Definitely don't agree with that, he wants out, he wants out badly, coming in and playing the good soldier makes it easier for Morey to turn down deals, maybe even the whole year long.
In reality, if you are a good player who wants to get traded, the best thing for you is to force a trade and lower the price it costs. Superstars do it by saying they'll only go to certain teams, Simmons is doing it by saying.. "oh you thought Harden loafing was a distraction...I can top that". If Simmons' goal is to get traded, being a pain in the ass is the best way to force it.

Edit- to be more clear. The more of a pain Simmons is the more fan pressure is there to trade him, the more coach pressure there is to trade him, the more star (Embiid) pressure there is. And eventually, as the season and story continue to be all about him there will be owner pressure to just get a deal done.
 

Swedgin

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Maybe this time, just to show he could, but there are lots of ways to make practice suck and clearly make less effort than is of any use to the team and get paid. Sounds like this time he was just like... yeah I don't want to do that drill. But next time he'll just go and do the drill at 1/3 speed, making it useless for the others involved but not refusing, which means he likely gets paid, and honestly disrupts practice just as much.
Based on the details of Sham's report, this seems more like Simmons' going rogue, than part of a coordinated strategy by Klutch/Rich Paul. Doing a hold-in is not all that complicated. It is just what you described above. But instead of doing that (according to Shams) Simmons' flat out refused to participate. While it does serve to create a distraction (ultimate goal) it does so in the worst possible way for Simmons. Given that, I can't help but wonder if this was his way of trying to get out of playing in front of Sixer's fans.
 

Mooch

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Remember, when a league exec texts a reporter with a quote that he then publishes, he did it for a reason. Anonymously talking about how a guy has no value is exactly what you do when you're trying to get a distressed asset for cheap. There are plenty of teams who would be happy to get Ben Simmons tomorrow for the tight price.
Maybe. But who wants a "distressed asset" with that level of toxicity and lack of guts for $30+M per?
 

Cellar-Door

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Maybe. But who wants a "distressed asset" with that level of toxicity and lack of guts for $30+M per?
Plenty of teams, because he's toxic because he wants out, he gets to you he's a flawed but incredibly talented player, and perhaps one who feels like he has something to prove.
Butler was incredibly toxic, he did fine for 2 later teams, Harden was toxic and lazy, but fine once traded, Kawhi went on paid strike, did well in TOR, now some players love being toxic, like Kyrie, but Simmons seems more like the former than the latter.
$30M isn't bad for Simmons' talent, warts and all, the question is asset cost, and if that goes down because of his feud with Doc and Morey, that's good for a potential acquiring team.
 

EvilEmpire

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Definitely don't agree with that, he wants out, he wants out badly, coming in and playing the good soldier makes it easier for Morey to turn down deals, maybe even the whole year long.
We've been well past the "good soldier" part of the show for quite some time. He's getting traded and I'm sure Morey would love to do it sooner rather than later. Even if Simmons plays ball he's a distraction. He's already done enough to force a trade.
 

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Butler is a terrible example. He went toxic because his teammates were too soft. Guy wanted to win too much. Not that Butler is not a grade A jerk, but Simmons is the cream puff here.
 

ManicCompression

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You didn't. You just think it's far more predictable/meaningful than most.
Simmons reminds me of another guy personality wise who did just enough to get paid. Put up the 20/10. Derrick Coleman.

I'm not sure what your point is here. I think most people understand that Ben Simmons is a good basketball player. What he is not is James Harden, AD, or Kawhi. Those guys can do whatever the fuck they want because they're top ten players and if you drop them on a team, they will get you into playoff contention on their own. If you have another star, you're in finals contention. So them being pissy and holding out is acceptable because they're still worth the risk.

Ben Simmons is a top 30 player (maybe?) whose shine disappears in the playoffs because he refuses to shoot. He's been paired with a top ten player for years and hasn't shown improvement despite that luxury. He does not possess the gravitas to act pissy and still retain trade value or have the team bend over for his own personal needs. As much as the Sixers don't have leverage, Simmons, too, also doesn't have leverage.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Maybe. But who wants a "distressed asset" with that level of toxicity and lack of guts for $30+M per?
Minnesota, Sacramento. Maybe Cleveland. Non FA hot spots.

A lot depends on the asking price. Morey isn't going to get the return he thinks.

There's a lot of crappy salaries around the NBA that teams would love to move attached with a pick or two.

People don't think the GSW would take Simmons for Draymond or the Wolves wouldn't trade DLo for him?

Simmons is an incredibly easy asset to move. He's an incredibly hard asset to move for value.
 

Mooch

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Plenty of teams, because he's toxic because he wants out, he gets to you he's a flawed but incredibly talented player, and perhaps one who feels like he has something to prove.
Butler was incredibly toxic, he did fine for 2 later teams, Harden was toxic and lazy, but fine once traded, Kawhi went on paid strike, did well in TOR, now some players love being toxic, like Kyrie, but Simmons seems more like the former than the latter.
$30M isn't bad for Simmons' talent, warts and all, the question is asset cost, and if that goes down because of his feud with Doc and Morey, that's good for a potential acquiring team.
The problem is that the flaws in his game are so significant that Simmons falls WAY short of the guys you mentioned in terms of on-court productivity.
 

djbayko

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Maybe. But who wants a "distressed asset" with that level of toxicity and lack of guts for $30+M per?
Everyone saw the post-playoff game interviews with coach and Embiid. Everyone heard about Simmons' unfulfilled trade demand earlier in the offseason. They know what's going on here. It didn't have to be like this. Sure, Simmons could have played good soldier., but the 76ers helped create this environment. He obviously won't be this toxic after he's traded.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I'm not sure what your point is here. I think most people understand that Ben Simmons is a good basketball player. What he is not is James Harden, AD, or Kawhi. Those guys can do whatever the fuck they want because they're top ten players and if you drop them on a team, they will get you into playoff contention on their own. If you have another star, you're in finals contention. So them being pissy and holding out is acceptable because they're still worth the risk.

Ben Simmons is a top 30 player (maybe?) whose shine disappears in the playoffs because he refuses to shoot. He's been paired with a top ten player for years and hasn't shown improvement despite that luxury. He does not possess the gravitas to act pissy and still retain trade value or have the team bend over for his own personal needs. As much as the Sixers don't have leverage, Simmons, too, also doesn't have leverage.
Why does Ben Simmons care what his trade value is? There will be some teams that want Ben Simmons. The lower the price they have to pay, the better it is for Ben Simmons.

The 76ers won't have a choice but to move Ben Simmons for 50 cents or they can try suspending him for 4 years and get no value at all. If they have the balls to do the latter, awesome. I'd love to see it.
 

Fishy1

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A digression from the current discussion, but it kind of astonishes me the position the Sixers have found themselves in. All these picks, and for what? Embiid was a great pick, but there's been so much waste and missed opportunity. From disasters like Okafor and Fultz to missed opportunities like Noel. And now this Simmons situation. It's brutal.
 

Cesar Crespo

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What is the 76ers leverage besides 4 year suspension? If they terminate the contract, someone gives Ben the max next off season.
 

Mooch

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Everyone saw the post-playoff game interviews with coach and Embiid. Everyone heard about Simmons' unfulfilled trade demand earlier in the offseason. They know what's going on here. It didn't have to be like this. Sure, Simmons could have played good soldier., but the 76ers helped create this environment. He obviously won't be this toxic after he's traded.
Until the next time he disappears in a playoff series?
 

Cesar Crespo

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A digression from the current discussion, but it kind of astonishes me the position the Sixers have found themselves in. All these picks, and for what? Embiid was a great pick, but there's been so much waste and missed opportunity. From disasters like Okafor and Fultz to missed opportunities like Noel. And now this Simmons situation. It's brutal.
Heh, if they picked Tatum instead of Fultz, I doubt any of this is happening now and the 76ers might have a title or two.
 

Cellar-Door

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The problem is that the flaws in his game are so significant that Simmons falls WAY short of the guys you mentioned in terms of on-court productivity.
THe point wasn't that he's similar on-court, the point was that being toxic to get traded doesn't mean you'll be toxic at your new location and teams know that. Simmons' behavior in PHI after they tried to play hardball with him won't change any other team's opinion on him, because they know what brought it to this point. He's not a guy who was toxic his whole career, so it isn't going to effect much. The quality of the return for Simmons will likely be lower, because he's not as good a player, but the thought process on how to assess the player doesn't really change.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Until the next time he disappears in a playoff series?
And what if he doesn't?

There were plenty of people on this board talking about how Giannis would never win a title because he's not made for playoff basketball.

A lot of teams will never have the chance to acquire a talent like Ben Simmons, and at a pretty decent price. Gambling on Ben Simmons would be wise even if it didn't work out.
 

djbayko

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Until the next time he disappears in a playoff series?
Disappearing in the playoffs is one possible outcome. But even if that happens, as long as the coach doesn't throw him under the bus, then they'll work through it.

I think some people are discounting what a big fucking deal that is. As soon as Doc Rivers spoke, he forced Morey's hand. But Morey didn't act on it in a timely manner.
 
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