Belichick and Saban: The Art of Coaching (HBO Doc)

[Marciano490]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocYCFlsTJac


Did we know this was a thing already, because I just got home and saw the trailer on HBO for the first time.

Wasn't sure which forum to post it in because it probably applies to every forum on every site ever created, but seemed best here.

 

[wiffleballhero]

Funny week for it.

 

[snowmanny]

Now that they’ve both fallen off the cliff.

 

[Buck Showalter]

I love Belichick. I think we are watching the greatest coach in the history of American "professional" sports. I will listen to whatever he says and take it all in.

Saban?

I see failure at the professional-level in a colossal manner. And a complete bullshit artist who is being funneled with future NFL-talent via sources that are against the rules.

I'll pass on this airing.

 

[JMDurron]

And a complete bullshit artist who is being funneled with future NFL-talent via sources that are against the rules.

This is true, and yet Saban is still king of the tribe of coaches that you just collectively described. His dominance of the smaller pond is comparable to Belichick’s dominance of the NFL ocean, regardless of how much less impressive the system Saban operates in happens to be.

Also, curse you for making me defend College Sauron this way. No type of fan wants to see Saban fail more than my fellow Auburn fans do, but to deny his dominance of the SEC/NCAA cesspool because he’s a more competent dirtbag than his dirtbag competitors strikes me as dishonest. I need a shower now.

 

[Mugsy's Jock]

Disclaimer: I don’t follow college football much, so maybe this is way out of character...

Saw a clip of Saban’s postgame after the dramatic Egg Bowl and the distinction between how he handled a tough loss versus how Belichick does was clear.

Saban called Auburn’s clever trickeration of lining the punter up as a WR “kind of an unfair play at the end of the game”. Fact is, it’s a total legal play designed to induce confusion for the Alabama coaches....which is exactly what happened. Sorry...you got totally beat on that and your Jon Harbaugh whining doesn’t deflect the blame.

Moreover throughout the comments, he blames his players for the penalties and specifically calls out his QB for throwing a pick six. One indirect reference to having to coach better, but overwhelming message was his players committed too many penalties and his players didn’t execute well. BB would always take much more of the blame in public to take pressure off the players...then get after them and fix things starting with the next practice.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1gluIW_0tI

 

[snowmanny]

I heard that as he thought it was "unfair" the refs didn't give him time to do a another substitution, not that Auburn did something unfair.

 

[PedroKsBambino]

Meanwhile, Belichick not only likely told his special teams coach to be ready for it tonight he likely also practiced doing it in a hotel walk-through.

Saban is a spectacular coach, among the greatest ever at the college level. But it is a very different gig than NFL head coach

 

[Mugsy's Jock]

I heard that as he thought it was "unfair" the refs didn't give him time to do a another substitution, not that Auburn did something unfair.

Ah...you’re probably right. But the point holds — BB would never characterize a zebra call he didn’t like as “unfair”... at worst, you’d get maybe “we didn’t see it that way” followed by “that was the call and our coaching staff needs to prepare for that situation”.

 

[JMDurron]

The Egg Bowl is between the Mississippi schools. The Iron Bowl is between Auburn and Alabama.

 

[johnmd20]

Meanwhile, Belichick not only likely told his special teams coach to be ready for it tonight he likely also practiced doing it in a hotel walk-through.

Saban is a spectacular coach, among the greatest ever at the college level. But it is a very different gig than NFL head coach

Saban is particularly impressive at having his roster filled with NFL talent. Turns out, if your players are much better than everyone else's players, coaching is not that hard.

Saban would suck in the pros. He's monumentally overrated. And he's an asshole.

 

[luckiestman]

Saban is particularly impressive at having his roster filled with NFL talent. Turns out, if your players are much better than everyone else's players, coaching is not that hard.

Saban would suck in the pros. He's monumentally overrated. And he's an asshole.

The NE head coach would disagree with this analysis.

 

[johnmd20]

The NE head coach would disagree with this analysis.

What does he know?

 

[InstaFace]

The NE head coach would disagree with this analysis.

Which part, other than calling him an asshole?

 

[luckiestman]

Which part, other than calling him an asshole?

It is my understanding that they are pretty good friends:

From Lombardis book about a dinner the 3 of them had


”Nevertheless, Belichick was eager to understand how Saban planned his counterattack. Between bites, Saban went into all of it in depth. Trying not to sound like too much of a fanboy, I have to say that his discourse was amazing: not just the scheme but the way he could make even the most complicated pieces of this puzzle seem simple and easy to digest. Belichick wasn’t particularly interested in the micro, the countless adjustments to each of the calls. What he wanted to hear more about was Saban’s broad philosophy. Belichick would figure out the particulars himself. That was how they always did things when they worked together. In 1991, when Belichick became the head coach in Cleveland, he inherited a team that allowed 462 points (28.8 points per game). In just one year, he and Saban dropped that number to 298. And in 1994, the last time Cleveland won a playoff game, the Belichick/ Saban defense gave up just 204 points (12.7 per game). They did it with a defense they invented called Red 2. Red 2, which is often credited to Saban but was truthfully a joint creation, was a “match coverage.” Depending on the pass routes, receivers would be defended man to man or passed off as they crossed into and through different areas of the field.“

 

[InstaFace]

yes, they're very good friends, insofar as each is capable of friendship. but do you think Belichick would think Saban should be head coaching in the pros? Or that he isn't winning mostly by recruiting NFL-level talent better than anyone else, vs (say) better complementary roster construction or game planning or in-game tactics and preparation, or whatever?

 

[Red Averages]

yes, they're very good friends, insofar as each is capable of friendship. but do you think Belichick would think Saban should be head coaching in the pros? Or that he isn't winning mostly by recruiting NFL-level talent better than anyone else, vs (say) better complementary roster construction or game planning or in-game tactics and preparation, or whatever?

Do you have anything to suggest that Bill doesn't highly value Saban's football intelligence?

 

[InstaFace]

Do you have anything to suggest that Bill doesn't highly value Saban's football intelligence?

Just the opposite, we know they consult each other on tactical trends, scouting, management, etc. I just didn't think we knew much about his views on the points johnmd20 raised.

 

[Red Averages]

Just the opposite, we know they consult each other on tactical trends, scouting, management, etc. I just didn't think we knew much about his views on the points johnmd20 raised.

Just seems like a weird take to make it seem like Saban isn't a good coach and BB should see through that, despite all available evidence that would highlight the mutual respect these two have, including the documentary that this thread is about, but also their shared coaching, weekly consultations with each other, etc etc. There are plenty of big name programs that have churned through coaches that have done a poor job. That Saban has dominated with Alabama for so long shouldn't be thrown out because he's able to recruit & coach top talent. Otherwise we should throw out any other team that gets talented players to come play for the coach... in which case we can just throw out all of the top teams that consistency dominate their sport. But I guess it's more fun just to have baseless claims and try to make other people refute the nonsense.

 

[Super Nomario]

yes, they're very good friends, insofar as each is capable of friendship. but do you think Belichick would think Saban should be head coaching in the pros? Or that he isn't winning mostly by recruiting NFL-level talent better than anyone else, vs (say) better complementary roster construction or game planning or in-game tactics and preparation, or whatever?

You're aware Saban was Belichick's first hire when he became a head coach, right? There are few coaches whose acumen Belichick holds in such high regard.

 

[lexrageorge]

When all the evidence points to Belichick respecting Saban's coaching abilities, the default assumption should be that Belichick thinks Saban is a great coach, college or pro.

Succeeding in the NCAA is obviously a different animal than succeeding in the NFL. But the NCAA is not for everyone, so we shouldn't just assume that Saban is a mediocre coach because he recruits well.

 

[JMDurron]

Saban, like every other coach on the damned planet, is no Belichick. That doesn't suddenly make him a bad coach. Some years, the players just don't make the plays, but his level of success is still unprecedented in the scholarship-equalized era of college football.

Now, screw all of you for forcing this Auburn fan to type that. FFS.

 

[Mugsy's Jock]

The Egg Bowl is between the Mississippi schools. The Iron Bowl is between Auburn and Alabama.

I told you I don’t know college football so good!

 

[JMDurron]

I told you I don’t know college football so good!

Understand, but if some CFB fan confused Tom Brady with Tony Eason, I bet you’d speak up too!

 

[Soxy]

There's a good write up on this from Richard Deitsch at The Atheltic. Says it's more focused on leadership and their relationship with each other over the years, and isn't specifically about football. Don't go into this looking for X's and O's.

Great quote here from Carl Banks, who played for both:

The film’s title, “The Art Of Coaching,” was born from a sound bite from Carl Banks that didn’t make the film. Banks played for Saban at Michigan State and then for Belicheck (sic) with the Giants, and Belichick and Saban together in Cleveland.

“They’re both masters in their art, but they approach it completely differently,” Rodgers explained. “Michelangelo, like Belichick, was simple, approachable and the master of fundamentals. Every single line is important and done to the utmost scrutiny. Da Vinci, like Saban, was a tinkerer and always thinking about a new invention or a new scheme or a new way to see the world. That’s the way Saban’s always looked at his defensive philosophy. When they combined in Cleveland, they really had an effect on each other. It opened up Belichick’s viewpoint on defense as much as it opened up Saban’s viewpoint on overall football philosophy. So they learned so much during those years and we thought, wow, they are artists. At one point it was actually called in our heads, “Zen and the Art of Coaching.”

 

[RoDaddy]

Hate to say it but it's kinda boring.

 

[JMDurron]

Hate to say it but it's kinda boring.

Pretty fitting, given what they talked about so often. There is no secret ingredient.

I could have done without seeing BB wearing a Bama shirt at their pro day, though. Ugh.

 

[SMU_Sox]

Pretty fitting, given what they talked about so often. There is no secret ingredient.

I could have done without seeing BB wearing a Bama shirt at their pro day, though. Ugh.

Take solace in that iron bowl win this year which was a great game.

 

[Red Averages]

Hate to say it but it's kinda boring.

I liked it. I think it depends on your expectations heading into it.

The big takeaway is that for these guys 90% of their life is football. Really reminded me of some people at work, where their way of connecting with you (similar to BB and Nick sitting down initially without the cameras) is through football. They aren't talking much about their personal lives because frankly, their personal life IS football. Even during BB's speech at his daughter's wedding, the beginning is about the Giants football game that occurred before the birth.

It was cool to see them take ownership for some poor coaching decisions, and highlight even with their success they are determined to avoid making similar mistakes in the future. How they've grown as coaches and teachers, and how they are both so driven. Really, it is going to take a lot for these guys to walk away from the game at this point because their entire lives are built around it and the enjoyment/drive is clearly still there.

 

[j-man]

i dont mean to be a smartass but i could win 9 games with saban talent

 

[luckiestman]

i dont mean to be a smartass but i could win 9 games with saban talent

Sabayon is not a legend because he wins 9 games

 

[Ale Xander]

Sabayon is not a legend because he wins 9 games

He's a legend because he gets his friend BB to draft Cyrus Jones and Damien Harris

 

[Dehere]

Hate to say it but it's kinda boring.

It needed to be a lot more football talk and a lot less narration. The biographical “then he got this job, then he got that job” stuff is already pretty well understood by anyone who would sit down to watch this.

The part about BB and Saban beating a great Cowboys team in Dallas was more what I was looking for. More memories of specific games and players.