BBtL Discussion: Slated for Off-season

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TheoShmeo

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Jul 19, 2005
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The “fuck people in GA” thing was absurd but it was one post in a GT.

I don’t really have any complaints about this place. Matter of fact, I kind of like it. Is it biased? Yeah, no shit. Still better than elsewhere.

Pats fans as a species hardly existed pre Kraft, and now you’ve won so much that you’re tired of winning.

Posting in a sociology of Pats fans thread because there is nothing to discuss about the upcoming ass kicking less than a weak out from the Brady invitational.

I just changed my mind. Fuck you guys.
I love the spirit of your post and that last line gave me a full on guffaw.

But the first bolded clause assumes that all Pats fan are under 50 or so. For those of us on the other side of the coin, I can assure that we existed. We weren't as fashionable or numerous as we are now, but the days of Plunkett, Grogan, Fairbanks, Jumbalaya and Squish the Fish have not been forgotten. Either have 1-15, Rod Rust and getting screwed by Ben Dreith. Some here have memories that include the pre-Plunkett era (or error), such as @bernardsamuel. Hell, I broke my right knuckle on the eve of a law school exam when Tony Eason threw a pick to lose to the Dolphins in Miami, again, during a Monday Night game. Dumbass pick, dumbass punch.* The point is that there were a lot of passionate fans back then, just as all teams -- even the bad ones -- have them.

* Though I was allowed to dictate the exam, which pissed off some of my more competitive classmates. Bad fans.
 
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Blue Monkey

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Mar 23, 2006
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Seriously. Wawa is the pinnacle of life. The best part of going to college in PA was Wawa. The best part about going to Philly is Wawa. There is almost nothing else good in Philly but Wawa. And maybe Dietz and Watson.
Yeah WaWa’s is no joke. But you have to say it right. You don’t go to WaWa, you go to “The WaWa”. At least that’s what I noticed in my 3 years in eastern PA.
 

Leather

given himself a skunk spot
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Jul 18, 2005
27,246
I have no problem with Yankee fans...
If the Yankees fail, *shrug*. Statistical anomalies. David Wells wasn’t in shape. Kevin Brown not a true Yankee. Although no one player emblemized them more, but I digress.

If the Pats lose, it’s because of a call. The league is against us. The commish willed it to reward Manning (either).
This is an example of taking the way the majority of Yankees fans (and fans of any team) act and comparing it to a minority of how Patriots fans act.

Take any fan base, particularly a successful one that has attracted a large amount of people that would not be fans, otherwise (namely: front runners, band wagoners, people who know nothing of team or league history, etc...) and of course there will be a segment that says stupid, embarrassing stuff. That people buy into this notion that such nonsense is representative of the fan base as a whole is a reflection on the people making such judgements, more than anything else.

Even on SoSH, which is a sampling of largely heavily-invested sports fans, the “League rigged the game!” people are a minority.

Sure, it’s fun to caricaturize fan bases as part of the pseudo-tribalisitic nature of sports fandom, but once people start really believing that other fans can be accurately summed up because of the sports team they root for, well, they should take a big step back and reconsider their own frame of mind. Drew Magary is a humorist, not a historian, and Bill Simmons is shtick.
 
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Hagios

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Dec 15, 2007
672
Contrast this to Drleather trying to get people to stop saying Minny. All he succeeded in doing was increasing the production of Minny by about 5000%. He laughed it off. Because we're talking about sports.
What if DrLeather’s true goal was to SoSH to say Minny more?
 

PedroKsBambino

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I could have quoted a lot of other folks in this, so I'm not picking on you two specifically. But these had some points I wanted to talk about.

1. One thing that I think needs to be remembered, and this is a relatively minor point, while this board is 99% Red Sox fans, since that's the primary reason it was set up in the first place, the percentage of Red Sox fans that are also Patriots fans is less. Maybe not a lot less, but a significant enough percentage. There are fans for many of the other teams here and some teams have multiple fans contributing to their team threads. I think that gets a little lost in the discussion.

2. I agree with Theo that for the most part non-Pats fans are treated decently. It took a major overhaul in BbtL in terms of membership and moderation to get it to a point where it was someplace worth contributing to. It's easy to forget the issues from years ago. However, it's not all punch & cookies out there and the last two Super Bowl wins by the Pats have seen standards slip. I expect a lot more garbage in the game threads; hell, that's pretty much what they are for. But, in my opinion, a lot of Pats fan arrogance sneaks into the other team threads too. The biggest way is the constant comments about how this or that would never happen under Belichick and how every other team is stupid. This happens in pretty much every thread and it's annoying to read over and over and over and over again. We get it; your team is the best and worth bragging about. I don't think any non-Pats fan would think otherwise.

The Steelers thread is the first team example. I mean, the constantly demeaning thread titles, which while humorous at times, are cringeworthy more often than not. I get that there is a rivalry there and there's going to be more venom, but it gets ridiculous. Eventually it got to the point where the Steelers fans have completely bailed on their own thread because of all of the domination of their thread by Pats fans reliving games and plays over and over again. I mean, when a couple of posters ask why the Steeler fans haven't chimed in after 3 pages of posts rehashing the Pats-Steelers game, and a mod has to come into the thread telling people to knock it off (and even after a pre-warning BEFORE the game), you can see why it would get old after awhile and people don't want to contribute. Next, the Cowboys thread. The crap about Deflategate when talking about Zeke's suspension. Totally unnecessary. Then the Dolphins thread. That I get is a bigger rivalry. But the Jarvis Landry talking stuff? Shitting on Ryan Tannehill's injury? Shitting on the Fins fans after the win over NE? Raiders thread, someone claiming they were "broken" by the Pats. I could go on, you can find examples in pretty much every team thread. And it may be one or two people in a thread, but across all of the threads, it adds up.

I know I don't go into Pats threads pretty much at all because, particularly in the past couple of years, because I have found them more boasting and mocking than having actual information, analysis and discussion. Let me make it clear, it's not everyone doing this. And some of it may be folks being subconsciously unaware that these things are being done. But it creates an environment that people DON'T want to contribute in.

3. This attitude isn't limited to this board by any stretch of the imagination. As someone who lived in Maine for 20 years, I have lots of friends who are Pats fans and a lot of them are guilty of this. It's going to be the nature of rooting for a team that's had an extended run of success. And the younger generation hasn't had to deal with adversity, so a lot of it comes from there. So I get where it comes from. But I would think we'd all expect things to be better on this board than the general public. It's still a good place. I just think the whole attitude needs to be toned down some, unless you really want to alienate the fans of other teams here. I think we all have a lot to contribute, and the community as a whole would do better with more participation.

I don't think CP's point should be lost in the fact that he brought his feelings up w/r/t game threads. It's pervasive everywhere on the board. And it's seemed to have picked up this year. I was going to start my own thread earlier in the year when I was reaching my own frustration point, but didn't because of the attitude I expected (and see) in this thread. I would hope if other non-Pats fans feel the same way, they also speak up.

And some "LOL BOO HOO, you're a Seahawks fan, of course, you're still mad about XLIX" comments wouldn't surprise me either. But I'm not standing up for me. I'm standing up for the community as a whole. Because it's worth it to make this a better place for all.
I 80-90% agree with this.

One element that I think should be noted is that there are absolutely a lot of Pats fans who behave poorly in other team threads (and we're all worse off for it, I think) if we're going to explore that we should be candid about a few fans of other teams who behave poorly, too, and exacerbate (or in some cases, imo cause) some of the homerism. I'm not sure it's productive to name names---many of us know who these people are and in some cases they've been excised, in other cases they are no longer active in this forum, and in others they are still around. I'm not equating these things in volume---clearly there's more Pats fans than any other team, and thus more poorly behaving Pats fans--but we should recognize there's some different elements that should be addressed, too.

The second item that i think all need to think through is (to quote DanooooME's very good post): "The biggest way is the constant comments about how this or that would never happen under Belichick and how every other team is stupid" The second part of that ("every other team is stupid") there is no question some say, and is silly...there's plenty of good organizations. The first part, though, is about application in my mind...we can debate whether it is true that this or that thing wouldn't happen in New England (and should, it is a message board after all) and I also think it's fair to acknowledge that there's some (not all) things the Pats have done at a highly unusual level, too. I think on that sub-issue we'd do well to focus on the merits of the specific claim and not generalize it to 'it's always wrong to say so-and-so wouldn't happen here" just as we shouldn't always apply the standard "BB is never wrong, must have been a good decision" either. The Jimmy G thread is interesting in this regard---there's plenty of criticism and doubt of the team in there, which is not always true.
 

Leather

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Jul 18, 2005
27,246
To really have merit, this “Steelers threads are demeaning” stuff should be compared to how Pats fans get treated in a, say, Penguins forum. Or a Mariners forum. Or a Yankees forum.

Somehow I doubt Pats fans in SoSH would seem so bad, after all.

Not that they/we couldn’t be better, but come on.
 

johnmd20

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To really have merit, this “Steelers threads are demeaning” stuff should be compared to how Pats fans get treated in a, say, Penguins forum. Or a Mariners forum. Or a Yankees forum.

Somehow I doubt Pats fans in SoSH would seem so bad, after all.

Not that they/we couldn’t be better, but come on.
This is really the crux of the matter. This is a Boston Website. Your team down south doesn't matter. And, more important, it shouldn't matter. I will never understand how a fan of another team expects special treatment on a site devoted to specific area. I'm a NY Rangers fan and never once did I enter a Bruins game thread against the Rangers(2013 playoffs, for example) and even think to complain about how my team was being mocked. I expected nothing less.

You want to commiserate with like minded fans? Go to the Sons of Billy Johnson. You're coming to a fruit and vegetable store and expecting a haircut.
 

Ralphwiggum

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Jun 27, 2012
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To the point that Pats fans didn't exist as a species before Belichick, while this is obviously an over-exaggeration, growing up in the metropolitan Boston area in the 80s, I had more friends who were Cowboy and Dolphin fans than Pats fans. The Pats had only existed for about 25 years or so at that time and were largely a joke franchise with very little history. So while I firmly disagree with the notion that Pats fans are Yankee fans, it is true that there are way, way more Patriot fans now than 30 years ago.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

posts 18% useful shit
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Nov 17, 2010
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I could have quoted a lot of other folks in this, so I'm not picking on you two specifically. But these had some points I wanted to talk about.

1. One thing that I think needs to be remembered, and this is a relatively minor point, while this board is 99% Red Sox fans, since that's the primary reason it was set up in the first place, the percentage of Red Sox fans that are also Patriots fans is less. Maybe not a lot less, but a significant enough percentage. There are fans for many of the other teams here and some teams have multiple fans contributing to their team threads. I think that gets a little lost in the discussion.

2. I agree with Theo that for the most part non-Pats fans are treated decently. It took a major overhaul in BbtL in terms of membership and moderation to get it to a point where it was someplace worth contributing to. It's easy to forget the issues from years ago. However, it's not all punch & cookies out there and the last two Super Bowl wins by the Pats have seen standards slip. I expect a lot more garbage in the game threads; hell, that's pretty much what they are for. But, in my opinion, a lot of Pats fan arrogance sneaks into the other team threads too. The biggest way is the constant comments about how this or that would never happen under Belichick and how every other team is stupid. This happens in pretty much every thread and it's annoying to read over and over and over and over again. We get it; your team is the best and worth bragging about. I don't think any non-Pats fan would think otherwise.

The Steelers thread is the first team example. I mean, the constantly demeaning thread titles, which while humorous at times, are cringeworthy more often than not. I get that there is a rivalry there and there's going to be more venom, but it gets ridiculous. Eventually it got to the point where the Steelers fans have completely bailed on their own thread because of all of the domination of their thread by Pats fans reliving games and plays over and over again. I mean, when a couple of posters ask why the Steeler fans haven't chimed in after 3 pages of posts rehashing the Pats-Steelers game, and a mod has to come into the thread telling people to knock it off (and even after a pre-warning BEFORE the game), you can see why it would get old after awhile and people don't want to contribute. Next, the Cowboys thread. The crap about Deflategate when talking about Zeke's suspension. Totally unnecessary. Then the Dolphins thread. That I get is a bigger rivalry. But the Jarvis Landry talking stuff? Shitting on Ryan Tannehill's injury? Shitting on the Fins fans after the win over NE? Raiders thread, someone claiming they were "broken" by the Pats. I could go on, you can find examples in pretty much every team thread. And it may be one or two people in a thread, but across all of the threads, it adds up.

I know I don't go into Pats threads pretty much at all because, particularly in the past couple of years, because I have found them more boasting and mocking than having actual information, analysis and discussion. Let me make it clear, it's not everyone doing this. And some of it may be folks being subconsciously unaware that these things are being done. But it creates an environment that people DON'T want to contribute in.

3. This attitude isn't limited to this board by any stretch of the imagination. As someone who lived in Maine for 20 years, I have lots of friends who are Pats fans and a lot of them are guilty of this. It's going to be the nature of rooting for a team that's had an extended run of success. And the younger generation hasn't had to deal with adversity, so a lot of it comes from there. So I get where it comes from. But I would think we'd all expect things to be better on this board than the general public. It's still a good place. I just think the whole attitude needs to be toned down some, unless you really want to alienate the fans of other teams here. I think we all have a lot to contribute, and the community as a whole would do better with more participation.

I don't think CP's point should be lost in the fact that he brought his feelings up w/r/t game threads. It's pervasive everywhere on the board. And it's seemed to have picked up this year. I was going to start my own thread earlier in the year when I was reaching my own frustration point, but didn't because of the attitude I expected (and see) in this thread. I would hope if other non-Pats fans feel the same way, they also speak up.

And some "LOL BOO HOO, you're a Seahawks fan, of course, you're still mad about XLIX" comments wouldn't surprise me either. But I'm not standing up for me. I'm standing up for the community as a whole. Because it's worth it to make this a better place for all.
In short, you miss my term as moderator in that forum from a few years ago?

Iron fist. Always the way to go.
 

Adrian's Dome

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Aug 6, 2010
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This is really the crux of the matter. This is a Boston Website. Your team down south doesn't matter. And, more important, it shouldn't matter. I will never understand how a fan of another team expects special treatment on a site devoted to specific area. I'm a NY Rangers fan and never once did I enter a Bruins game thread against the Rangers(2013 playoffs, for example) and even think to complain about how my team was being mocked. I expected nothing less.

You want to commiserate with like minded fans? Go to the Sons of Billy Johnson. You're coming to a fruit and vegetable store and expecting a haircut.
This guy gets it.

The unreasonable man is the one that expects the world to conform to him.

Also, fuck the Colts.
 

SeoulSoxFan

I Want to Hit the World with Rocket Punch
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Jun 27, 2006
21,280
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...it got to the point where the Steelers fans have completely bailed on their own thread because of all of the domination of their thread by Pats fans reliving games and plays over and over again... Then the Dolphins thread. That I get is a bigger rivalry. But the Jarvis Landry talking stuff? Shitting on Ryan Tannehill's injury? Shitting on the Fins fans after the win over NE? Raiders thread, someone claiming they were "broken" by the Pats
This is a struggle for me, as one of the mods here.

What I'd like to see happen is to have the team threads essentially be:
  • Places where fans of the respective teams feel good about contributing
  • Pats fans can read from the "other" PoV
  • Try to elevate the "signal/noise" post ratio, like any other threads here
  • Post as if you were a Pats fan in an opposing fan forum and how you'd like to be "treated"
Easier said than done, of course, there are fine lines in where "you're goading" starts and "you're being sensitive" ends. My current take on team-specific threads is this:
  • Can/should the posts be elsewhere and not impact the "signal/noise" ratio? (i.e., there are plenty of threads here to post the "28-3" memes, as an obvious example)
  • Are the posts going to encourage or discourage other fans from posting?
  • How much ownership do other fans currently have in the thread? (i.e., I'm more willing to be "heavy-handed" in the Phins thread due to the active nature there)
  • Even if I earn the ire of some posters, I'm more likely to side with the other fans' than not
  • If the overall quality of them improves, I'm willing to risk them being "safe spaces" (for a lack of a better term)
  • Crapping on a team is half the fun -- it can be done elsewhere other than each team thread
One idea I had considered is to have a member be a "mini-mod" for each thread and keep a regular conversation going to help out. If anyone is interested, I'd love to hear from you. If you have other ideas, like drafting a general guideline, I'd also be very interested.
 

mauf

Anderson Cooper × Mr. Rogers
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I judge them. I find SEC mania off-putting, because the pros are the pinnacle of the sport and Atlanta has professional sports. They're not Alabama where SEC is the only game in town. I'll never forgive Atlanta for 1993, and I don't forgive them for taking that Braves team for granted and not showing up to playoff games.

Whether Patriot fans are the new Yankee fans is hard to say. The test will be when Brady and Belichick retire and the Pats suck for a few years. I'm sure some fans will throw a tantrum about it (I would say this would be the Yankee fan reaction), I'm sure some fans will not follow football at all, I'm sure some fans will take it in stride and soothe the losses with copious consumption of America's Game episodes like I've done with the 49ers for years. I tend to think the last group will be the biggest, the Patriots have been good for so long they've etched themselves into the fabric of New England and we're not going to return to the days of Foxboro having 25,000 empty seats and the team struggling to get above the fold of the Globe. But I would have said the same for the Celtics and my perception is they definitely fell off the radar at times in the 90s and 2000s.

I guess the only thing I'll say is, as somebody who remembers the 2nd half of the 49er dynasty about as well as it's possible for a kid to remember, it'll never get better than this. You will never love and respect the Patriots as much as you do now, so enjoy it.

Also, fuck the Dallas Cowboys. They could go 1-15* for a decade and it would not stop the loathing I have for them.

*this would be better than 0-16, because watching the Cowboys and their dipshit fans celebrating their last second field goal over the Cardinals or Browns would be much funnier than them going 0-16.
Your perception re: the bolded is correct — when the Celtics suck, you wouldn’t know Boston even had an NBA team unless you sought out news about it. Some of that has to do with the nature of the NBA (when two below-average teams play, it’s unwatchable), but it shows Boston fans are at least capable of being fair-weather.

But I think you’re right that the current run of success has permanently altered the relationship between the team and its fan base. New England is not a football hotbed, and I think that will show itself as relative disinterest when the team has down years (as compared to the Red Sox and Bruins, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth during lean years), but we’re not going back to the bad old days of empty seats in Foxborough unless the post-Brady Pats have a run comparable to what the Browns have had.
 

singaporesoxfan

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I concur with your assessment of the Philly accent. However, the bolded marks you as an enemy of the people.
To clarify - I was posing a hypothetical. As someone who lived in Philly for 2 years, I actually really like the use of "jawn" and the fact that Philly maintains a distinct accent, and I love Wawa and am weirdly excited that it's coming to DC.

Just meant to say it was weird that Conig's initial post didn't really account for city or region-specific hate. I think it's actually less absurd than many of the other reasons given.
 

bankshot1

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Feb 12, 2003
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where I was last at
To Theo's point

I can assure that we existed. We weren't as fashionable or numerous as we are now, but the days of Plunkett, Grogan, Fairbanks, Jumbalaya and Squish the Fish have not been forgotten.


Nor have the days of Babe Parilli, Gino, Nick Buoniconti, and the real Jim Nance.

And how is John Hannah forgotten by Theo!

And some of us are still pissed at Ben Dreith

HARUMPH!
 

Leather

given himself a skunk spot
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Jul 18, 2005
27,246
There is a small part of me that still regards Ben Coates' 1994 as the best year a New England TE has ever had.
 

Stitch01

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Jul 15, 2005
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2. I agree with Theo that for the most part non-Pats fans are treated decently. It took a major overhaul in BbtL in terms of membership and moderation to get it to a point where it was someplace worth contributing to. It's easy to forget the issues from years ago. However, it's not all punch & cookies out there and the last two Super Bowl wins by the Pats have seen standards slip. I expect a lot more garbage in the game threads; hell, that's pretty much what they are for. But, in my opinion, a lot of Pats fan arrogance sneaks into the other team threads too. The biggest way is the constant comments about how this or that would never happen under Belichick and how every other team is stupid. This happens in pretty much every thread and it's annoying to read over and over and over and over again. We get it; your team is the best and worth bragging about. I don't think any non-Pats fan would think otherwise.
I think you hit on the one real messageboard quality issue here. Taking shots at other teams, whatever, its part of sports messageboarding. I didnt think any of the Atlanta stuff was over the top. I have noticed occasional shots at Atlanta (and I think posted once) that I dont really understand why a Pats fan would hate Atlanta, but OK, sort of a personal decision and seems fine given BBTL is a Pats-focused forum, other teams are gonna catch shit.. Some of what you mentioned in the team specific threads gets exacerbated by poster personalities as happens on messageboards. Some of it I dont totally agree with (Deflategates seemed relevant to the Elliott discussion) But the bolded for sure gets tiring, and Im sure its worse for non Pats fans. Im probably guilty of too, but It is noticeable on here sometimes. Ive joked in the past that that the official SOSH QB rankings are 1) Tom Brady 2) Who gives a shit. Although to be fair now its 1) Tom Brady 2) Jimmy G 3) who gives a shit, so we're working on it. Its fair criticism, but its also how every fan messageboard everywhere works so Im not sure there's a solution.

Its sort of funny that we are having this sort of discussion on a Red Sox fan forum and its basically based around the central tenet that Yankee fans are a unique brand of assholes and using that as a pejorative.
 

Bergs

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Jul 22, 2005
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I think you hit on the one real messageboard quality issue here. Taking shots at other teams, whatever, its part of sports messageboarding. I didnt think any of the Atlanta stuff was over the top. I have noticed occasional shots at Atlanta (and I think posted once) that I dont really understand why a Pats fan would hate Atlanta
This thread got me about 70% there.
 

Royal Reader

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Sep 21, 2005
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I just don't feel like 28-3 jokes say anything about the Patriots fans, or fans here, in particular, because it's a nationwide meme. Like the Pats being "Cheaters" (and being a Pats fan on legitimately any general football forum gets you far worse than anything said here) or the Eagles having no Superbowls or the Browns being a horrible pit of misery or Bills fans throwing each other through tables. It would be noteworthy if this were the only non-Falcons forum that was entirely free of 28-3 jokes. Any sufficiently large forum, you're going to find a couple of fans with a particular animus for any given other franchise. I'm sure when they go to Soldier Field next season there will be two to three people who particularly despise everything about Chicagoland posting in the game thread.

I've never gotten "arrogance" from Pats fans noticing other teams being egregiously stupid. It's always struck me as being like "Damn, we're blessed." We follow a league where it's both true that Andy Reid is in the top five coaches and is dreadful at clock management. Sean Payton couldn't put together an adequate defense for five seasons. Jeff Fisher lasted seventeen seasons in one gig and five in another, and Marvin Lewis is somehow still employed. Pretty much every non Patriots staff seems to have five or six moments as bad as the Pats' onside kick in Miami per season, and so yes people notice the difference.
 

RFDA2000

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Nov 16, 2005
363
I think any reveling in the misery of Falcons fans that Patriots fans take part in is more about the national reaction to the first half of the Super Bowl than anything about the Falcons or Atlanta. Sort of wrong place at the wrong time, but you can sort of see why some people would have that national pig-pile and Atlanta intertwined in their minds, even if I'm not sure that connection is actually merited.
 

Ralphwiggum

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Jun 27, 2012
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I have a 28-3 coffee mug sitting in front of me on my desk. I don't have it sitting there to offend any Atlanta Falcon fans who might walk into my office. I have it because it reminds me of the absolutely incredible comeback from last year's Super Bowl. Of course if I were a Falcon fan I'd want to throw up in the mug, but me having that mug in plain view isn't because I want to revel in the misery of Falcon fans. I think the same is true of 28-3 jokes and memes, they aren't designed to rub Falcon fan's faces in the Comeback per se, and only operate as such if you use them that way.

Of course if I lived in Atlanta surrounded by Falcons fans and I made sure the mug was prominently displayed that might be a different story, but then we get back to the fact that this is a message board largely populated by Patriot fans (just as my office is mostly filled with Pats fans).
 
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allstonite

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Oct 27, 2010
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I just don't feel like 28-3 jokes say anything about the Patriots fans, or fans here, in particular, because it's a nationwide meme. Like the Pats being "Cheaters" (and being a Pats fan on legitimately any general football forum gets you far worse than anything said here) or the Eagles having no Superbowls or the Browns being a horrible pit of misery or Bills fans throwing each other through tables. It would be noteworthy if this were the only non-Falcons forum that was entirely free of 28-3 jokes. Any sufficiently large forum, you're going to find a couple of fans with a particular animus for any given other franchise. I'm sure when they go to Soldier Field next season there will be two to three people who particularly despise everything about Chicagoland posting in the game thread.

I've never gotten "arrogance" from Pats fans noticing other teams being egregiously stupid. It's always struck me as being like "Damn, we're blessed." We follow a league where it's both true that Andy Reid is in the top five coaches and is dreadful at clock management. Sean Payton couldn't put together an adequate defense for five seasons. Jeff Fisher lasted seventeen seasons in one gig and five in another, and Marvin Lewis is somehow still employed. Pretty much every non Patriots staff seems to have five or six moments as bad as the Pats' onside kick in Miami per season, and so yes people notice the difference.
I agree with this post 100%. The 28-3 thing became a national thing replacing "the Warriors blew a 3-1 lead" and it would show up on signs in random crowds like NBA games and college game day. The Saints ended up adopting it in a malicious manner, I thought

As for the Belichick stuff, I'm sure it can get tiring but I thought there was a great discussion after the NE-Pitt game about how Tomlin handled the end of the game and the media after and comparing it to Belichick. It did take place in the Steelers thread and had a few people leaning toward crowing than discussing but I thought it was moderated well and was an interesting contrast for Tomlin who is generally thought of as one of the better coaches.
 

Hoodie Sleeves

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Nov 24, 2015
1,204
If the Pats lose, it’s because of a call. The league is against us. The commish willed it to reward Manning (either).
This seems like a really strange claim in the context of the current narrative - which is that the refs are throwing calls to the Patriots. Every Patriots game for the last couple weeks the narrative has been that calls either outright determined the game, or put the team in a position they couldn't get out of (Tennessee). Even Mike Tomlin used the excuse (in the 'I'm not saying just sayin' form)

Isn't the simplest answer that most sports fans get too emotionally involved in their teams losing?

(Also, the league literally is against the Patriots. There's not really any other rational way to read the outcome of deflategate)
 

nighthob

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Jul 15, 2005
10,685
Perhaps if anything more than a handful of fans here had said they were quitting when Belichick and Brady did that would sound "Yankee-ish"...but I would be stunned if there's a single regular reader of this subforum who would agree any number close to that have said anything like that.
I think most of us that have said that (and I am one, at least I'm done when Brady and Aaron Rodgers are done) have made it clear that it was more related to the sort of nauseating organization the NFL as a whole is. To be brutally frank the more CTE stories that emerge the guiltier I feel for even watching New England and Green Bay.

Anyway there might be an exception, but I'm pretty sure that for most of us it's the character of the billionaire boys' club that makes us uneasy. (And as I always grant, my watching of Brady and Rodgers to the end is purely hypocritical, but I'm too attached to them as players to walk away during their careers.)
 

bankshot1

Member
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Feb 12, 2003
21,003
where I was last at
With all due respect, the 28-3 thing was the most dramatic comeback most Americans have ever seen (with apologies to Frank Reich). That it also happened in the Super Bowl witnessed by most Americans, and most of the English-speaking world, makes it more than fair game to comment on, or make fun of. To expect that Pat fans on a Pats thread who saw their team survive a possible ass-kicking with a historic, for the ages epic come from behind win, would not make mention of said comeback, and have some fun with it, seems a little unrealistic.
 

pappymojo

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Jul 28, 2010
5,692
This is really the crux of the matter. This is a Boston Website. Your team down south doesn't matter. And, more important, it shouldn't matter. I will never understand how a fan of another team expects special treatment on a site devoted to specific area. I'm a NY Rangers fan and never once did I enter a Bruins game thread against the Rangers(2013 playoffs, for example) and even think to complain about how my team was being mocked. I expected nothing less.

You want to commiserate with like minded fans? Go to the Sons of Billy Johnson. You're coming to a fruit and vegetable store and expecting a haircut.
Would it change your mind/posting if you considered this not a Boston website, but instead considered it a Red Sox website with discussions about other topics and sports? When I am engaging with, for example, a Steelers fan on SOSH, I consider them to likely be Red Sox fans who also root for the Steelers.

As to the Yankees/Patriots comparisons, I don't think it is valid. The Yankees are representative of an organization that has (1) financial resources unavailable to a large majority of other teams (regardless of whether the Red Sox also have financial resources), (2) historic relevance spanning multiple generations of players and managers, and (3) cultural relevance beyond America (to the point where kids in other countries grew up dreaming about playing for the Yankees).

The Patriots don't have any of those characteristics. The Patriots success has happened within the career of one owner, one coach, one player (TB12). Further, while Patriots fans may be insufferable, the Yankees fans never had to deal with anything as stupid and/or as malicious as deflategate.
 

Curt S Loew

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Would it change your mind/posting if you considered this not a Boston website, but instead considered it a Red Sox website with discussions about other topics and sports?
You are posting in the Patriots forum under the "Boston Sports" section.
 

Quiddity

lurker
Oct 14, 2008
189
(reply to the opening post, I haven't read the whole thread yet) For me personally, I just don't feel bad about saying bad things about other teams or their fans anymore because every other team's fan reactions to practically anything the Pats do these day is "cheaters!". After YEARS of fans of other teams saying that over and over and over again the ability to be civil becomes quite tough. You get the mindset of "screw them" and become happy with rubbing it in their faces. Especially when you have the opinion that at most the Patriots committed a minor infraction with Spygate (wrong location) and didn't do anything wrong with Deflategate. Yes, for years and years I hated the Yankees with a passion, but it was because they were our rivals and better than us, not because I considered them cheaters in any way.
 

scott bankheadcase

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Nov 1, 2006
1,487
hoboken
Just to clarify one thing being pushed a couple times in this thread. Not all 31 other fan bases are completely rooting against the Patriots winning the SB this year. Suddenly, a large portion of the 49ers fan base has become mainly ok with it.
 

DanoooME

Member
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Mar 16, 2008
17,313
Williamsburg, VA
Seriously. Wawa is the pinnacle of life. The best part of going to college in PA was Wawa. The best part about going to Philly is Wawa. There is almost nothing else good in Philly but Wawa. And maybe Dietz and Watson.
Wawa is amazing and anyone who travels into this area has to experience one. Dietz and Watson makes great cold cuts and are definitely worthy of mention.

I 80-90% agree with this.

One element that I think should be noted is that there are absolutely a lot of Pats fans who behave poorly in other team threads (and we're all worse off for it, I think) if we're going to explore that we should be candid about a few fans of other teams who behave poorly, too, and exacerbate (or in some cases, imo cause) some of the homerism. I'm not sure it's productive to name names---many of us know who these people are and in some cases they've been excised, in other cases they are no longer active in this forum, and in others they are still around. I'm not equating these things in volume---clearly there's more Pats fans than any other team, and thus more poorly behaving Pats fans--but we should recognize there's some different elements that should be addressed, too.
I don't disagree here. Everyone should be better across the board.

This is really the crux of the matter. This is a Boston Website. Your team down south doesn't matter. And, more important, it shouldn't matter. I will never understand how a fan of another team expects special treatment on a site devoted to specific area. I'm a NY Rangers fan and never once did I enter a Bruins game thread against the Rangers(2013 playoffs, for example) and even think to complain about how my team was being mocked. I expected nothing less.

You want to commiserate with like minded fans? Go to the Sons of Billy Johnson. You're coming to a fruit and vegetable store and expecting a haircut.
It's a Red Sox site. We're united by that one thing. Everyone else aren't going to have exactly everything else in common. It just so happens most of the fans are in the Boston area and most are Pats fans. I don't go into any thread expecting any special treatment, but you would expect a general level of decency, especially if you started a Rangers thread, right? (I don't go into RMPS much at all, so I don't know)

In short, you miss my term as moderator in that forum from a few years ago?

Iron fist. Always the way to go.
Sir, yes sir!

This guy gets it.

The unreasonable man is the one that expects the world to conform to him.

Also, fuck the Colts.
I don't expect anyone or anything to conform to anything. But I do expect a certain level of decorum.

This is a struggle for me, as one of the mods here.

What I'd like to see happen is to have the team threads essentially be:
  • Places where fans of the respective teams feel good about contributing
  • Pats fans can read from the "other" PoV
  • Try to elevate the "signal/noise" post ratio, like any other threads here
  • Post as if you were a Pats fan in an opposing fan forum and how you'd like to be "treated"
Easier said than done, of course, there are fine lines in where "you're goading" starts and "you're being sensitive" ends. My current take on team-specific threads is this:
  • Can/should the posts be elsewhere and not impact the "signal/noise" ratio? (i.e., there are plenty of threads here to post the "28-3" memes, as an obvious example)
  • Are the posts going to encourage or discourage other fans from posting?
  • How much ownership do other fans currently have in the thread? (i.e., I'm more willing to be "heavy-handed" in the Phins thread due to the active nature there)
  • Even if I earn the ire of some posters, I'm more likely to side with the other fans' than not
  • If the overall quality of them improves, I'm willing to risk them being "safe spaces" (for a lack of a better term)
  • Crapping on a team is half the fun -- it can be done elsewhere other than each team thread
One idea I had considered is to have a member be a "mini-mod" for each thread and keep a regular conversation going to help out. If anyone is interested, I'd love to hear from you. If you have other ideas, like drafting a general guideline, I'd also be very interested.
You and the other mods have done a great job getting this place to where it is and you guys deserve a lot of credit for that. And so do the majority of posters. I think some of what CP and I are talking about comes subconsciously and people may not realize they are doing it. Others (and we know who they are) are antagonists and that's their MO. The signal/noise piece is a good point. When you see a huge run of comments in a row in a game thread about an opposing team, that's one thing. But when similar comments are spread out amongst multiple threads, that's when it gets to be more of a problem. And it's hard to police everything. From my perspective, there was one day where I went into about a dozen different threads, none of them Pats centric, and it was a lot of the same crap spread across those threads. It felt like I was in the Pats threads and it was frustrating. I go out of my way to avoid those threads and yet I felt like it was inescapable that day.

I'll PM you my thoughts about your idea later.

I think you hit on the one real messageboard quality issue here. Taking shots at other teams, whatever, its part of sports messageboarding. I didnt think any of the Atlanta stuff was over the top. I have noticed occasional shots at Atlanta (and I think posted once) that I dont really understand why a Pats fan would hate Atlanta, but OK, sort of a personal decision and seems fine given BBTL is a Pats-focused forum, other teams are gonna catch shit.. Some of what you mentioned in the team specific threads gets exacerbated by poster personalities as happens on messageboards. Some of it I dont totally agree with (Deflategates seemed relevant to the Elliott discussion) But the bolded for sure gets tiring, and Im sure its worse for non Pats fans. Im probably guilty of too, but It is noticeable on here sometimes. Ive joked in the past that that the official SOSH QB rankings are 1) Tom Brady 2) Who gives a shit. Although to be fair now its 1) Tom Brady 2) Jimmy G 3) who gives a shit, so we're working on it. Its fair criticism, but its also how every fan messageboard everywhere works so Im not sure there's a solution.

Its sort of funny that we are having this sort of discussion on a Red Sox fan forum and its basically based around the central tenet that Yankee fans are a unique brand of assholes and using that as a pejorative.
I agree that it's okay for people to take shots at other teams. Where the problem comes in is when there are dozens of posts across multiple threads, none of whom on the surface have anything directly to do with the Pats, in non-Pats threads. I don't have a problem dealing with the occasional dig, it's part of the territory. I took 4 days off from the board after XLIX, but I eventually came back and read back through those threads (since I wasn't home for the SB that year) and appreciated some of the comments from some of the posters here. Others, well, no further comment needed.

I guess the best suggestion I can make is if you think the 197th version of a 28-3 meme, or how gung-ho Mike Tomlin is, or anything like that, ask yourself if it's really necessary.

You are posting in the Patriots forum under the "Boston Sports" section.
If there was another place to post football items, I'm sure we'd be happy to post them there instead. It's a football catch-all that happens to be labeled "Boston Sports". I mean, if you want it to be Pats exclusive, I'm sure Nip and the mods can arrange that if it's really necessary and you can have your own little fiefdom. Or the rest of us can just bail.
 

reggiecleveland

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Mar 5, 2004
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This is really the crux of the matter. This is a Boston Website. Your team down south doesn't matter. And, more important, it shouldn't matter. I will never understand how a fan of another team expects special treatment on a site devoted to specific area. I'm a NY Rangers fan and never once did I enter a Bruins game thread against the Rangers(2013 playoffs, for example) and even think to complain about how my team was being mocked. I expected nothing less.

You want to commiserate with like minded fans? Go to the Sons of Billy Johnson. You're coming to a fruit and vegetable store and expecting a haircut.
I am still shocked we have a Yankee fan moderator and Yankee forums. Mind you if somebody is making money off them, fine.
 

Curt S Loew

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If there was another place to post football items, I'm sure we'd be happy to post them there instead. It's a football catch-all that happens to be labeled "Boston Sports". I mean, if you want it to be Pats exclusive, I'm sure Nip and the mods can arrange that if it's really necessary and you can have your own little fiefdom. Or the rest of us can just bail.
No need for bail. I was merely pointing out that this IS a Boston sports site first and foremost. There is no need to restrict discussion to that.
 

wnyghost

lurker
Aug 8, 2010
149
I live in Western NY and my 11 year old takes more shit in school for being a Pats fan than any poor soul on this board.

Any discussion about the NFL starts with the Patriots being cheaters. School kids and adults... it would be one thing if it was a rivalry thing but any comment referencing cheating is cheap and a troll job. At some point credit is due. He smiles and tell them how lucky he is to be a fan of such a good team.

The boy and I will circle the wagons and I will eventually have to break it to him that Patriot football might not always be played in late January.
 

johnmd20

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Dec 30, 2003
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It's a Red Sox site. We're united by that one thing. Everyone else aren't going to have exactly everything else in common. It just so happens most of the fans are in the Boston area and most are Pats fans. I don't go into any thread expecting any special treatment, but you would expect a general level of decency, especially if you started a Rangers thread, right? (I don't go into RMPS much at all, so I don't know)
The point is, I wouldn't start a Rangers thread during the playoffs when the Rangers are playing the Bruins. I think that would be absurd, despite the Red Sox specificity to this website. Instead, I go to HF Forums and gripe with angry Rangers fans there. And my wife is from Cleveland, so obviously she is a Cavs fan. So I stay out of the Celtics game thread if they are playing the Cavs and go to RealCavsFans.

I don't go to a WaWa for a haircut. I go to a barber shop.
 

snowmanny

Member
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Dec 8, 2005
12,542
I can't speak for all Patriot fandom but I will say my mind has changed in one respect. Twenty-five years ago I felt most Pats fans knew very little about football, compared to say, the average Eagles or Giants fan and compared to how much the average Red Sox fan knew about baseball.

I don't feel that way anymore. Also, because of spygate and deglategate, I come in contact with way more fans of other teams who immediately come off as idiotic and obnoxious. Now, if one defends oneself there's a risk of coming across as defensive, arrogant or, because of the Patriots' success, punching down. But so what? When you read about crap like wnyghost's son getting abuse - and that happens all the time everywhere and is much worse than making fun of another team's play selection on a Pats message board - all bets are off.
 

dcmissle

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Aug 4, 2005
28,269
To Theo's point

I can assure that we existed. We weren't as fashionable or numerous as we are now, but the days of Plunkett, Grogan, Fairbanks, Jumbalaya and Squish the Fish have not been forgotten.


Nor have the days of Babe Parilli, Gino, Nick Buoniconti, and the real Jim Nance.

And how is John Hannah forgotten by Theo!

And some of us are still pissed at Ben Dreith

HARUMPH!
Colorful history with more twists and turns than the Steelers' 180 degree transformation almost a half century ago. There is no point in getting into it in detail here; so few lived the earlier years, it doesn't impact behavior.

Interestingly, the 1970s were a decade of underachievement. Pats had a first rate front office; the drafting was superb. With the addition of Fairbanks, there was every reason to be very optimistic. It then blew up as the Sullivans Sullivanned.

It was an empty feeling most closely approximated by the massive squander years of Bobby Grier and Pete Carroll.
 

DanoooME

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Mar 16, 2008
17,313
Williamsburg, VA
The point is, I wouldn't start a Rangers thread during the playoffs when the Rangers are playing the Bruins. I think that would be absurd, despite the Red Sox specificity to this website. Instead, I go to HF Forums and gripe with angry Rangers fans there. And my wife is from Cleveland, so obviously she is a Cavs fan. So I stay out of the Celtics game thread if they are playing the Cavs and go to RealCavsFans.

I don't go to a WaWa for a haircut. I go to a barber shop.
That makes sense. But the team threads are up year-round, so it's not a case where anyone is trying to antagonize Pats fans. They are there more to share information.
 

54thMA

Member
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Aug 15, 2012
8,302
Westwood MA
I live in Western NY and my 11 year old takes more shit in school for being a Pats fan than any poor soul on this board.

Any discussion about the NFL starts with the Patriots being cheaters. School kids and adults... it would be one thing if it was a rivalry thing but any comment referencing cheating is cheap and a troll job. At some point credit is due. He smiles and tell them how lucky he is to be a fan of such a good team.

The boy and I will circle the wagons and I will eventually have to break it to him that Patriot football might not always be played in late January.
Been a Patriots fan since the late 1960's; suffered through the early 1970's, Ben Dreith in 1976, Fairbanks bailing out on the team in 1978, John Smith missing a chip shot vs Miami that would have put them in the playoffs the night John Lennon was shot, the sure handed Mosi Tatupu fumbling in 1984 in Denver as the Patriots drove down the field for the game winning TD that would have put them in the playoffs, losing their three best defensive players for the season in the last preseason game in 1981 or 1982, finally getting to the Super Bowl only to get demolished by the Bears, Rod 1-15 Rust, Dick MacPherson, Parcells bailing on the team in 1996 and coming close to the Packers in the Super Bowl, then pissing away Super Bowl level talent with Pete Carroll.

Then Belichick showed up; 17 strait years of having a winning record, 12 trips to the AFCC including 7 in a row and 5 Super Bowl wins (so far), an incredible run, a long suffering fan's dream come true.

Fans around the league feel differently; Spygate, Deflategate, "Belicheat", the "Cheatriots" (my personal favorite, it beats the shit out of the "Patsies"...........), or the new refrain, now this year the refs are being paid off to throw games for the Patriots and they get all the calls.

I travel a lot with my business and when someone finds out I'm a Patriots fan, the smirk on their face is priceless, no comment of "Wow, what a dynasty, great team, you're a lucky guy", it's "Oh yeah, they cheated their way to 5 Super Bowl wins.", so speaking just for myself, yeah, I'm a bit thin skinned over the constant, not stop barrage of cheater comments that get thrown around concerning the Patriots.

I shrug it off, but it's still monumentally annoying to hear it constantly. No credit for what they've accomplished, just distain, they have the greatest QB and coach in NFL history, but they're both viewed as cheaters by opposing fans.

No matter how this run ends (and it's going to end sooner than later), they will always be looked at by fans of other teams as cheaters. As a long time fan, this run will always be special to me, let them say whatever they want, whatever helps them sleep at night.
 
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