AVP Also Out
- Thread starter NDame616
- Start date
Interesting. Usually you fire the HC, maybe a Coordinator and let the new coach tell you who he wants to keep. But seems like they'll clean house and take the chance.
The only coaches who survive would be ones the incoming coach wants to keep, they won’t force anyone on the new guy.
Maybe, Stefanski gave up some playcalling this year. But also... most fired OCs don't get a pro-OC job right away, they either go to college or take a job with another team as an analyst or the like.
The QB.s look good. He probably got a raw deal but with a new HC coming in there was no chance of him being retained.
I liked AVP, but there was no doubt he was gone ever since we saw Jon Kraft mouth "horrible playcalling". He knows Mayo doesn't call offensive plays, do it can only be directed in one place.
Yeah the whole staff is gonna be swept out. I don’t think there’s a Dante on the staff who a new HC would want to stick around.
They both do, but part of it is that both Maye and Milton have spoken glowingly about how much AVP has helped them
I’m guessing a lot of contracts might be expiring anyways with some of the holdovers like Brian Belichick and Mike Pellegrino who will follow Bill to UNC.
Just my opinion: AVP was a lousy OC. Too conservative, no imagination, no feel for the game as it's being played. (He loved that wide receiver screen that did not work once this year that I can recall) I suppose you could make a case that he was a good QB coach in Cleveland and other spots, and that he helped Maye develop.
You could also make the case that Maye is just good and would be just as good or better with another coordinator. The lousy OC hire didn't help Mayo at all.
You could also make the case that Maye is just good and would be just as good or better with another coordinator. The lousy OC hire didn't help Mayo at all.
More than fair, but I think it severely limits the play-calling when the offensive line is the worst in the league, and the receivers never get separation down field. AVP wasn't the biggest problem (and he sure deserves some credit for developing Maye), but I'm ok with him going.
It was the 12th of 12 interviews. How many true offensive guys did he really know outside of Nick Caley who turned they down.
I thought he was fine. He had no O-line bad WRs, a rookie QB and a very conservative HC in his ear. I watched every Patriots and every Bears game... I can tell you the number of plays that gave the rookie QB easy reads and options for NE was really high, for CHI it was really low. AVP knew what his job was, he was here to keep Maye on track, and that's what he did.
I think situation is key. When he briefly called plays for the Browns he was really aggressive, lots of play action deep shots on the perimeter. He's not Ben Johnson, but I think a lot of what he did this year was dictated by O-line talent and HC preferences.
Only the Giants and Browns scored less points, and they had a significantly worse QB situation. He's terrible and never should have been hired for anything beyond qb coach.
COnversely.... 2 teams scored less points and they had significantly better O-line and WR situations
Feel bad for the guy. Both QBs blossomed but it seemed anytime they tried a play that was chess-not-checkers the OLine or a WR would let them down sure as the sun rises.
Would’ve liked to keep him as a QB coach under the next guy, but I understand that’s just not how stuff works.
Covington best be next and I’ll keep my Wolf rant to the other thread
Would’ve liked to keep him as a QB coach under the next guy, but I understand that’s just not how stuff works.
Covington best be next and I’ll keep my Wolf rant to the other thread
Van Pelt had the worst OL personnel in the NFL, bottom-3 WR personnel, and a rookie QB who everyone called a project coming into the season. Most of the critiques about Maye involved the quick game and his footwork. Both were VASTLY improved from what Maye showed at UNC.
This offense had ZERO easy buttons and the rookie QB still looked competent. Van Pelt deserves credit for that.
I understand the offensive line issues and the shit receivers didn't help. What I don't understand is how AVP escapes any blame for the offensive line issues and the shit receivers. They are part of his offense. Again, just my opinion.
It will be interesting to see if any other teams take a flyer on AVP as an OC. I tend to doubt it.
I'm sure he will find a spot as a QB coach somewhere.
Agree with this take.
That said, it also never felt like AVP and Mayo were on the same page. The reality is that this season was a complete lost one so aside from a select few players they can get rid of everyone and not suffer for it.
Its hard to say how good AVP is relative to others in the NFL but he kind of feels league average. Maybe AVP will prove to be tough to replace but if so it will be kind of a surprise.
I'm not suggesting he is blameless but the OL issues are considerable and very much a personnel issue over coaching problem. I'd be willing to bet several of the starting OL for the 2024 Pats won't be on NFL rosters next season.
Maye's strengths in college were the intermediate and deep passing game. Those were not consistent options with this OL for Van Pelt. The OL struggled in the run game to boot...
Maye had a good rookie year being forced to work almost exclusively in quick game because the OC didn't really have a choice to play to his strengths (QB run game notwithstanding).
Is it possible Maye is so good he can overcome average OCs? Sure, not likely, but sure. Phil Longo was fired in midseason in Wisconsin.
I think it's more likely that SVP and Maye made chicken salad out of chickenshit and both deserve credit.
Not that it makes a huge difference in the final rankings, but the offense a couple of PPG better with Maye than Brissett who started five games and played most of the Jets game (roughly 35% of the season). Also what OC could have done anything with this OL crippling the offense? Its amongst the worst I can remember the Patriots having going back to when Zolak was playing QB...
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I thought AVP was about what I expected - a bit meh to solid. I think he ended up being solid across the year and was the one I would have likely kept another year.
Here's what we don't know, however: We don't know whether AVP schemed the offense to maximize what they could out of their talents, and they just couldn't execute. At some point, no matter how many buttons the coaches push, it comes down to the ability of the players
Yep. The fact that the offense went from putrid to looking almost functional the second Maye stepped in makes me think there was only so much AVP could do. He didn’t have a functional OL, anything resembling a dynamic receiver or a RB who didn’t fumble constantly. He had Maye, rubber bands and paper clips.
I keep coming back to this too. I am pretty sure I posted before something like Bill Belichick himself would win 0 games taking 53 random SoSH posters and coaching the living hell out of us for an entire year. In other words,the players are ultimately the ones on the field and if they are largely garbage, all the coaching in the world won't help. If that wasn't true, we would all be enjoying the Mac Jones era right now.
AVP seems like a good guy, and handled his media responsibilities professionally. I don’t mean to kick him on his way out - it was obviously a terrible situation. AVP seems to have been a good QB coach and helped rookie QBs develop. That’s great, and an important skill — frankly, probably the single most important thing that happened this season. I'm sure he'll catch on somewhere, either as a QB coach in the NFL or an OC in college.
Still, I don’t think you can watch the film and come away that the problems on this offense were solely on the players. Based on the limited film I've seen of this year’s Pats offense, I've seen a scheme — not just players, but scheme — that left WRs hopelessly stacked and bunched into tiny windows, and playcalls that at times were too simple (not letting Maye sneak for a yard) and at other times far too complicated (calling a backward pass when backed up to their own end zone in Buffalo, for example, or the disastrous fumbled toss against the Chargers when the o line was already getting killed). If others have watched film and come away with a different impression, I'm interested to hear it. Would love to be wrong.
While AVP did well with the QBs, according to them, an OC is responsible for the entire offense. The offensive line never gelled and looked functional, and AVP has to bear some of the responsibility no matter how terrible the personnel, for never figuring out how to manage a bad o line -- bringing in extra blocks, playing to their strengths, etc. The wide receivers -- apart from Boutte, who improved from "unplayable" to "serviceable" -- were awful. As a team, they never had more than 257 passing yards in a game (I note here that one of the first games I remember watching is Bledsoe's 329 yard, 4 TD game and win in OT to end his rookie season against Miami in '93 -- my brother was pumped). 31 years later, and Maye never approached that kind of stat line. Heck, the Pats only scored 20+ points 7 times, never more than 25.
Ultimately, the NFL is a deeply unfair, brutally hard bottom line business. Yes, AVP was dealt a terrible hand, and I will be forever grateful that he helped mentor Maye in a lost season. But you can't have results as terrible as his and expect to keep your job.
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So this in particular is a great example of how we have no idea what the play is supposed to be. AVP was asked about this play and.... it wasn't supposed to be a backwards pass... Maye cut his drop short and threw it too early, Rham looped the route too deep. (also Jacobs 100% whiffed on the block). So where you see a decision to throw a backwards pass in the EZ, what was called was a nice safe swing pass where getting anything at all on the DE guarantees a positive play and maybe a big one. As to the rest, hard to tell. I remember one play everyone here pointed to as a terrible concept, got analyzed on QB school, and..... the WR got the snap count wrong, so instead of clearing the zone he and the TE end up in the same place...another play the WR was asked why he was so close and admitted he ran the wrong depth.
Now don't get me wrong, AVP was not running the most inventive and unique offense out there, but we just could not execute plays correctly on any level, whether that be routes, blocks, snap counts, nothing.
I hear you, and you’re certainly right — I’m not listening to the play calls, I’m not at practice, I’m not watching the All 22 and breaking down every play, nor would I really know what I was looking at even if I did.
I guess I just think some of that is on the OC as well. This was late in the season, when he knew his guys and they should have known the offense. If Jacobs is getting run over, get him help or call plays that don’t depend on him not getting run over, especially deep in your own territory. If Rham isn’t running the right route, that’s partly a practice / in-game issue. Etc.
I guess I just think some of that is on the OC as well. This was late in the season, when he knew his guys and they should have known the offense. If Jacobs is getting run over, get him help or call plays that don’t depend on him not getting run over, especially deep in your own territory. If Rham isn’t running the right route, that’s partly a practice / in-game issue. Etc.
Volin backtracks on his X from yesterday. Lock the thread?
Ben Volin
@BenVolin
38m
Jerod Mayo is the only person told by Robert Kraft that he was fired. But most of the coaching staff is not expected to be retained, from @nicolecyang
Ben Volin
@BenVolin
38m
Jerod Mayo is the only person told by Robert Kraft that he was fired. But most of the coaching staff is not expected to be retained, from @nicolecyang
I would think the new coach should give AVP an interview, for informational purposes if nothing else. But the vast majority of them will be gone. The special teams guys probably have the most chance of sticking.
I would guess the guys who get offered to stay are...
Springer
McCartney
Pellegrino
Belichick
MAYBE Peters
Mark Daniels
@ByMarkDaniels
9m
Alex Van Pelt is moving on after one season in New England. The Patriots offensive coordinator won’t return to Foxborough next fall, according to multiple sources
@ByMarkDaniels
9m
Alex Van Pelt is moving on after one season in New England. The Patriots offensive coordinator won’t return to Foxborough next fall, according to multiple sources
I was hoping he would be offered the QB coach role. Wondering if he never was, or if he turned it down
I doubt he was, you can't demote a coordinator, it just doesn't work out... you'll end up with AVP guys versus Josh guys. Every times someone is unhappy with how Josh does things they'll go to AVP.... and AVP by all accounts is a really good guy, can't imagine he'd want to undermine the next guy like that. If they kept somebody it was always going to be McCartney because they can just keep him in his current role.