Astros Ass't GM Brandon Taubman: Asshole (and Now He Is a Fired Asshole)

Tyrone Biggums

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Astros are a scumbag organization. They stand behind intimidating women and misogynist behavior. Horrible. Any team with half a conscience would have done the right thing by now and sent this guy to the unemployment line and deactivate/release Osuna asap.
 

Spacemans Bong

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I agree with you that this is a subject that has a lot of nuance. Of course, this is also why I find the first portion of your post troubling.

You are specifically right that no one can ever prove that someone slaps their significant other because of the case of one specific ballplayer. But, IMO, you are generally wrong about the fact that lots of abusers act the way they do because they believe they are more powerful than the individual they are abusing. And the societal reluctance to punish abusers is a big part of that.



There should absolutely be more material support to woman and their abuser to change the status quo.

However, I am firmly of the opinion that abusers who ignore a mandate to attend counseling or who handle their legal problems by arranging (through payoffs and/or threats) for their wife/girlfriend to refuse to cooperate and/or leave the jurisdiction should be dealt with harshly.
I'll respond to this backwards: I one thousand percent agree about abusers ignoring counselling. What bothers me most in Moskowitz's article is how Chapman faced no sanction for blowing off counselling. 75 games off for a closer throwing 104 is probably a good thing for his team, and Chapman's made plenty of money, so who is really being penalized here? Instituting a DVPP and tying it to being allowed to stay on the field seems like a very good carrot for abusive players. Let an independent professional or professionals judge when or if somebody is ready to return, and when they have completed treatment.

Societal reluctance to punish abusers is real (unfortunately, I am experiencing this first-hand with a member of my extended family), but I don't see where it's MLB's place to imitate the functions of the justice system. For one, like all sports organizations, they are transparently not very good at it. Two, they're not impartial. Their interest is in preserving their own reputation and placating stakeholders, not justice. Three, if the inability of prosecutors to secure convictions from domestic violence arises because of a reluctance to testify or a reluctance to report abuse, then the obvious and right place to start addressing that is in the legal system. If women don't want to testify because they don't want their partner's career ruined or them imprisoned, and we believe them to genuinely want this outcome, then who are we helping here? It might be that places like family court are a more appropriate jurisdiction for some cases, or that using avenues outside of the legal system would be more effective in some instances.

What I am absolutely certain of is zero-tolerance policies designed by a sports league to, effectively, do the justice system's work for it are gonna be a disaster. An intervention program might be one too, but by its very nature is going to be more holistic and carefully designed and would therefore have a chance of working better.
 

singaporesoxfan

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One of the purposes of punishment is deterrence for society at large. Part of what your position misses is that people seeing Chapman and Osuna and others being celebrated and paid millions of dollars sends a very clear message to would-be abusers. The other thing your position misses is the very clear message their success and celebrity gives to women - domestic abuse isn't that serious, especially if the perpetrator is good at something.
I think your point here contradicts your point that it’s “easy and proper” to criticize Taubman but that all who cheer for Osuna are complicit, which I think overly minimized Taubman’s actions and also elides the differences in level of complicity between a front office and fans. Many other teams by all accounts decided that Osuna was not worth it, whether because of a moral stance or just bad PR. One team, in part because of the decisions of people like Taubman, made the decision to put Osuna in a position where he could be celebrated and paid millions. And then they gloated about getting him at a discount.

If your goal is to stop seeing abusers be celebrated, I’d say the current shit being rained down on the Astros front office is far more likely to be an effective deterrent, since it affects people making hiring decisions, than trying to ask millions of fans to stop cheering for their team.
 

Mueller's Twin Grannies

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The problem is MLB’s therapy requirements for abusers are minimal. Chapman went to one therapy session, blew off the rest of them, and didn’t receive any sanction for it. I doubt anybody else has gone to anything. Therapy for abusers is surprisingly effective, provided they actually do it. Tying that to continued eligibility seems like a good idea going forward.
How prevalent is therapy, especially anger management or couples counseling, in Latin American countries? I've been under the impression that it is more something seen in, for lack of a better term, western white culture than elsewhere. For Latin American players, it might not be something they would even treat seriously, especially if they didn't grow up here. For Chapman, therapy might be seen as an affront to his culture and his machismo and that may be why he washed his hands of it after one session, for which he likely should have been punished even further, especially if he agreed to do it as part of his way back to reinstatement.. With a large concentration of Latin players, many of whom may have been taught since birth that they will always be more important simply because of their sex, be it for cultural or even religious-based rationale, and may balk at the idea of someone outside of their culture telling them they're doing it wrong. And, sure, we can tell them that's what is required of them to play baseball for MLB, but that doesn't mean they will actually change and, speaking to your point about the perils of zero tolerance, may also drive them to try to keep their partners quiet at all costs rather than lose out on game checks.

Unfortunately, disgusting as it is, sports will always care more about results and performance than character, especially for teams desperate to win. This means that shitty people are going to work in sports, play on professional teams, and even officiate contests. There were even shitty people in Pleasantville. I'm all for going with character over skill, but it doesn't seem like a recipe for financial success and that's probably a nonstarter for any pro sports league or franchise. It's all about the money and they will only do what they have to do to keep the money flowing in. Going back a few years, MLB was clearly aware of the steroid issue long before it became a Congressional matter but sat on their hands because tickets were selling like hotcakes and they wanted to fully recover from the strike-shortened year that killed a lot of public interest in the game. It's why teams like the Chiefs still employ Tyreek Hill and their fans will bend over backwards to defend him: he can catch balls and they want to win, so he will always likely have a job in football until he can't play anymore unless he's involved in a murder and even that might be okay if he makes a deal with law enforcement to shift any culpability to another party involved in the murder like that walking caricature that used to play for Baltimore and is now a talking head.

So long as we value entertainment over the lives of others, these issues are going to continue to raise their ugly heads. How do we fix that?
 

Plympton91

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Taubman insulted people. He’s clearly an asshole and should be punished. Chapman and Osuna assaulted women, served a minor penalty, are getting paid again and are supported my millions of fans while no one complains about them. Marciano is on to something.
Is the role of Major League Baseball and other private employers to enforce rules against domestic violence, or is it the government’s job to enforce rules against domestic violence?

Isn’t there a massive movement afoot to “ban the box!” That is, prevent employers from asking about a potential employee’s prior criminal history? Doesn’t that fly in the face of what people are writing here?

Also, suppose the local convenience store hired a convicted abuser to be the manager. Would you boycott that store as a result? In which case, are you basically arguing for something only marginally less punitive than la life sentence?

We should have very, very harsh criminal and civil penalties for abusers (and do a better job of tying length of sentence to evidence of reform and remorse). After the courts are through with them though, we need to let them work again as long as they don’t screw up again.

Neither Chapman nor Osuna spent a day in prison to my knowledge. That’s where Marciano is hitting the nail on the head.
 

Tyrone Biggums

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Yes!!!

Thank god! Ownership and MLB most likely were the ones to push this. Hope this guy doesn't get a job in the game for a while. He needs to get with the program and the times. Any place he goes next which will hopefully be in a few years he should be on automatic final warning.

This is a win for women everywhere.

Next they need to Release Osuna Immediately. Lets not forget the root of this issue.
 
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Cesar Crespo

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It's not totally the same but it sorta reminds me of the Jason Kidd/Bob Ryan thing. I think what Ryan did isn't really comparable to Taubman though.
 

BigSoxFan

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Just so we're clear, Taubman's comments don't reflect the values of the Astros' organization but Osuna's actions apparently do?
 

InstaFace

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Osuna was arrested and charged with physically assaulting the mother of his 3-year-old kid.

Taubman verbally harassed and intimidated one or more female reporters. (It’s not clear to me whether he was targeting the reporter with the purple bracelet or all three.)

The acts are obviously connected and part of the same misogynist culture, but they’re not the same thing. It‘d be ironic if Taubman’s punishment is more severe than Osuna’s. I’m not defending Taubman. I think the Astros should fire him. But he’s much easier for the team and fans to sacrifice than players like Osuna and Chapman.
Now that we've hit a resolution: Of course it's easier. But Taubman is just an employee. Osuna is The Product, or an integral part of it. Taubman is expendable, Osuna isn't. Much harder to do that for any business in the entertainment industry, up until you get to conduct like Kevin Spacey or Matt Lauer.
 

nattysez

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So what about whoever wrote the initial tweet essentially saying that he'd done nothing wrong? Or the tone-deaf press statements the next day? This issue goes a lot deeper than him.
 

dhappy42

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Now that we've hit a resolution: Of course it's easier. But Taubman is just an employee. Osuna is The Product, or an integral part of it. Taubman is expendable, Osuna isn't. Much harder to do that for any business in the entertainment industry, up until you get to conduct like Kevin Spacey or Matt Lauer.
Exactly. Every other class I took in b-school had the word “value” in it and to put it bluntly: Osuna is valuable to the Astros and Taubman isn’t. His behavior made him a net liability. Good riddance even if for the wrong reasons. Sets the right example.
 

Tyrone Biggums

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Exactly. Every other class I took in b-school had the word “value” in it and to put it bluntly: Osuna is valuable to the Astros and Taubman isn’t. His behavior made him a net liability. Good riddance even if for the wrong reasons. Sets the right example.
Its a good start but no one should be fully satisfied with the outcome until Osuna is gone and has to sit out a long time. Yankees should do the same with Chapman and eat the money. People that threaten and abuse women are scum. Its 2019. You're either getting with the program or you aren't. If you aren't then you no longer have the privilege to be apart of this great game.

Lundhow needs to be given a choice by MLB. He keeps his job and cuts Osuna immediately or he gets fired. Then his replacement will have to cut Osuna immediately. Clean out this trash front office.
 
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Red(s)HawksFan

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Its a good start but no one should be fully satisfied with the outcome until Osuna is gone and has to sit out a long time. Yankees should do the same with Chapman and eat the money. People that threaten and abuse women are scum. Its 2019. You're either getting with the program or you aren't. If you aren't then you no longer have the privilege to be apart of this great game.
They made their bed and have been lying in it with regard to Osuna for 15 months now. It's unrealistic to expect that they'd now throw him out because something someone else did brought his old transgressions back into the limelight. Osuna sat for 75 games last year. He's done his time, whether you agree with that punishment being appropriate or not. They're not going to re-litigate it.

Same with Chapman. I think they're both scumbags, but you're going to be screaming into the void forever if you think they're going to be put out of work at any point prior to them becoming inadequate baseball players. Unless something new comes to light about them, they're going to continue to be employed as long as they're still getting big league hitters out.
 

Marciano490

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I think your point here contradicts your point that it’s “easy and proper” to criticize Taubman but that all who cheer for Osuna are complicit, which I think overly minimized Taubman’s actions and also elides the differences in level of complicity between a front office and fans. Many other teams by all accounts decided that Osuna was not worth it, whether because of a moral stance or just bad PR. One team, in part because of the decisions of people like Taubman, made the decision to put Osuna in a position where he could be celebrated and paid millions. And then they gloated about getting him at a discount.

If your goal is to stop seeing abusers be celebrated, I’d say the current shit being rained down on the Astros front office is far more likely to be an effective deterrent, since it affects people making hiring decisions, than trying to ask millions of fans to stop cheering for their team.
None of that is what I was saying. My point was more that the real sin was taking Osuna on in the first place. Gloating about it in front of women reporters, especially one who’d been critical of the decision, is also really shitty - but it’s also just basically them spelling out their thought process in public.

It’s like getting mad at a murderer because he got off on a technicality then screamed at the victim’s parents how glad he was he made the kill.

What did we think the Houston FO really thought - that Osuna was actually a sweet guy that’d been reformed and rehabilitation is an important tenet of society? That’s just people deluding themselves and being upset Taubman pulled back the curtain and made it harder for them to root for the Astros or other teams that employ abusers.
 

JimD

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Good riddance to Taubman. What an idiot - he was on track to either move up to the GM seat in Houston or land a gig elsewhere paying millions and he blew it. His name will likely be toxic in MLB circles for a long time (and rightfully so).
 

joe dokes

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What did we think the Houston FO really thought - that Osuna was actually a sweet guy that’d been reformed and rehabilitation is an important tenet of society? That’s just people deluding themselves and being upset Taubman pulled back the curtain and made it harder for them to root for the Astros or other teams that employ abusers.
My guess is the Astros thought something along the lines of "he did his time."
 

Ale Xander

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Fantastic. I really through they would have waited until they lost. Better late than never.
 

Marciano490

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My guess is the Astros thought something along the lines of "he did his time."
So did the pedophile pitcher, but they demurred there.

And simplifying their thought process to that level is exculpatory. They knew most/all other clubs disagreed. You don’t think the underlying sentiment was, we don’t think what he did was that bad in light of how good he throws a baseball?
 

soxhop411

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And now Luhnow is having a press conference and still not helping things. By among other things trying to play the victim saying it isn’t a cultural issue, and claiming he has been too busy to apologize to the reporters his team attacked.
View: https://twitter.com/chelsea_janes/status/1187504272478560256


View: https://twitter.com/Chandler_Rome/status/1187502268293271553

View: https://twitter.com/ChronBrianSmith/status/1187501256568426496

View: https://twitter.com/thehazelmae/status/1187505844591697920

View: https://twitter.com/ArashMadani/status/1187503435253452800?s=20
 
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DeadlySplitter

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this whole debacle is so very Astros. I hope for their sake it doesn't come out sometime later that they really did cheat on the field.
 

mauf

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Two thoughts:

1. In any entertainment business, different rules apply to the “talent” than everyone else.

2. In any company that has a union, management is subject to different rules than labor.

There’s no point in comparing Taubman to Osuna or any other player — it’s apples and oranges. And focusing on that tends to excuse the way the Astros handled the Taubman matter; rather than pivoting to the broader question of domestic violence in sports, people ought to be asking who made the decision to issue the initial statement smearing the reporter, and why Taubman wasn’t immediately suspended (even if termination needed to await an investigation) once it became clear that the initial statement was false. Luhnow’s remarks only underscore the need for further investigation. I realize MLB doesn’t want to add more fuel to the fire during the World Series, but I hope they follow up after.
 

Marciano490

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Shouldn’t the Houston PR team have a better spin rate?
This is incredible. Like top 5 of the year.

I am basing this on absolutely nothing, but I feel like if Houston had won the first two games Taubman is still there. This feels like some kind of ritual sacrifice to superstition and karma.
 

Plympton91

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Now that we've hit a resolution: Of course it's easier. But Taubman is just an employee. Osuna is The Product, or an integral part of it. Taubman is expendable, Osuna isn't. Much harder to do that for any business in the entertainment industry, up until you get to conduct like Kevin Spacey or Matt Lauer.
It wasn’t the conduct of Kevin Spacey or Matt Lauer that got them canned. It was the public finding out about the behavior of Matt lauer and Kevin Spacey that got them canned.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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It wasn’t the conduct of Kevin Spacey or Matt Lauer that got them canned. It was the public finding out about the behavior of Matt lauer and Kevin Spacey that got them canned.
Isn't that always the case with any crime? It wasn't the shooting that got the guy put in jail, it was finding out about it and the trial and conviction that put him in jail.
 

Marciano490

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Isn't that always the case with any crime? It wasn't the shooting that got the guy put in jail, it was finding out about it and the trial and conviction that put him in jail.
No... because people within their organizations knew about the conduct. They only acted when the public knew they knew.
 

sean1562

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so we are all rooting for a nats sweep now right? i was before but just checking to see if everyone else is now hoping DC demolishes them
 

singaporesoxfan

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View: https://twitter.com/benjstrauss/status/1187863337935278080


"Stephanie Apstein met with Jeff Luhnow in the dugout just now. She asked for a retraction to the team’s first statement suggesting she fabricated her story. He didn’t commit to issuing one."

Are the Astros just trying to make it worse? What a clown show, so disgraceful.
Even from the perspective of “let’s just help our manager and players focus on the game by not having to be asked questions about this during the World Series”, you would think they would do it, but no.

Manfred and MLB must be livid. The Astros seem determined to make this the focus of press coverage during MLB’s premier event