Arsenal 2017-18: Au Revoir, Arsene

shaggydog2000

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that goal was preposterous

i wish ramsey was always as good as he was today.
He and Ozil were both head and shoulders above everyone else on the pitch yesterday. It was something to see. Lacazette and Bellerin had very good days as well.
 

mikeford

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Welp, we draw Madrid in the semis so that's the end of that.

Think we could've snuck a match in a final but no way the gulf in quality in both team and managers doesn't shine through over 2 legs.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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Wow, this is not what I expected. But this is great news. Wenger gone, but now can get a proper and respectful sending off. Let’s hope the man goes out on a high note and wins the Europa League.

I hope the replacement is Jardim. Tuchel I’d also like, although he seems bound for PSG.

The two rumored candidates I really don’t want are Low and Ancelotti. We need a younger manager with a progressive tactical vision.
 
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JayMags71

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Tuchel I’d also like, although he seems bound for PSG.
Sven Mislintat is now the Gunners' head of recruitment and he was infamously forced out of Borussia Dortmund after disagreements with Tuchel over the Bundesliga side's transfer policy, which resulted in the scout being banned from BVB's training ground.
The two rumored candidates I really don’t want are Low and Ancelotti. We need a younger manager with a progressive tactical vision.
Low has a pretty cushy job with Die Mannschaft. I’m having a hard time understanding why he’d take a job with more downside than upside.
 
Low has a pretty cushy job with Die Mannschaft. I’m having a hard time understanding why he’d take a job with more downside than upside.
Maybe he wants to prove himself at club level, feels he's done pretty much everything he can at the international level, and/or would rather work with players on a day-to-day basis rather than infrequently as he does with Germany?

Speaking of which, I wonder if this is definitely the end of Wenger in football management, or if there will be another act in his career - possibly at international level. (I assume OCST was entirely joking about Everton, although it'd be delicious if Wenger were to replace Allardyce...)
 

67YAZ

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Yesterday Cordeiro says the new USMNT GM spot will be filled soon. Today Wenger steps down at Arsenal...

Edit: a Mislintat-Jardim pairing would be really exciting. Given a season or two, I’d bet they could refashion Arsenal into a young, fun, swashbuckling side. The resources are there and, I’d hope, some patience from the fan base for a transition from the Wenger Era to what comes next. Allowing Ozil and Wilshere to leave on frees could open up the salary and playing time for 3 high quality young players to come in and develop quickly.
 
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InstaFace

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Yesterday Cordeiro says the new GM spot will be filled soon. Today Wenger steps down at Arsenal...
A senile Wenger would still run circles around most international teams. You joke, but with the lower stress and lower expectations, it wouldn't shock me if the USSF started targeting near-to-retirement elite club managers. Maybe if France fails to make it out of their group, they give Wenger a cycle. Dude's 68 but he's a younger 68 than Heynckes is at 72 or (say) Jorge Jesus is at 63.
 

coremiller

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A senile Wenger would still run circles around most international teams. You joke, but with the lower stress and lower expectations, it wouldn't shock me if the USSF started targeting near-to-retirement elite club managers. Maybe if France fails to make it out of their group, they give Wenger a cycle. Dude's 68 but he's a younger 68 than Heynckes is at 72 or (say) Jorge Jesus is at 63.
I think Wenger as England manager after England inevitably flame out in the quarterfinals again is the most intriguing landing spot.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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Low has a pretty cushy job with Die Mannschaft. I’m having a hard time understanding why he’d take a job with more downside than upside.
Agreed, I don't think Low is interested in the job. He is frequently rumored to be a main contender but I think that's just football journos making shit up and throwing it against the wall.
 

mikeford

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Yesterday Cordeiro says the new USMNT GM spot will be filled soon. Today Wenger steps down at Arsenal...

Edit: a Mislintat-Jardim pairing would be really exciting. Given a season or two, I’d bet they could refashion Arsenal into a young, fun, swashbuckling side. The resources are there and, I’d hope, some patience from the fan base for a transition from the Wenger Era to what comes next. Allowing Ozil and Wilshere to leave on frees could open up the salary and playing time for 3 high quality young players to come in and develop quickly.
Ozil was re-signed during the January window.
 

coremiller

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Or France if they disappoint.
England would be more fun, if only because Wenger can continue his relationship with the English press and keep picking Jack Wilshere over better players for another four years. Plus England are much more likely to flame out in Russia than France, France are both loaded and have a much easier draw. I'll be shocked if France don't cruise into the semis given their draw.

And then when England continue to disappoint at international tournaments, we can do the whole #WengerOut thing all over again.
 

shaggydog2000

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Or maybe a new manager can get more out of Ozil, and many other players in the squad, than Wenger has been able to of late.
I think a lot of players could look different in a new scheme. Xhaka and some of our defensive players certainly could look better if the system didn't stretch them out and them leave them exposed.
 

mikeford

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I know Wenger has obviously lost the locker room in the past 2 years but I also know there are some diehard backers in that locker room (Ozil especially) so I do wonder if we'll see anyone trying to force their way out this summer.

I guess it depends on who replaces him.


Please god not Rogers.
 

Zososoxfan

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I think Ancelotti makes a lot of sense and would do well as a transition manager on a 2-3 year basis. Vieira is an interesting name but I think the Board will be skittish about giving him the reigns without more experience at a high level. I think Rodgers will be the pick. Jardim would be an outstanding hire.
 

OCST

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Maybe he wants to prove himself at club level, feels he's done pretty much everything he can at the international level, and/or would rather work with players on a day-to-day basis rather than infrequently as he does with Germany?

Speaking of which, I wonder if this is definitely the end of Wenger in football management, or if there will be another act in his career - possibly at international level. (I assume OCST was entirely joking about Everton, although it'd be delicious if Wenger were to replace Allardyce...)
Yes, of course I'm kidding.

Everton management are adrift so it's entirely possible that they'd sign him and trumpet it like it's a big deal, like clueless grandparents arriving at Christmas with last year's hot toy wrapped up.

I don't rate him as low as Arsenal fans have come to do, but he's no sane person's idea of building a PL team for the future.

I'd take him over Sam. I would take any of you lot over Sam.
 

candylandriots

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Yes, of course I'm kidding.

Everton management are adrift so it's entirely possible that they'd sign him and trumpet it like it's a big deal, like clueless grandparents arriving at Christmas with last year's hot toy wrapped up.

I don't rate him as low as Arsenal fans have come to do, but he's no sane person's idea of building a PL team for the future.

I'd take him over Sam. I would take any of you lot over Sam.
You should see how spectacularly I’m failing at Football Manager. You’d be begging for Big Sam back. I really am doing a fine impression of Frank de Boer’s start to the season.
 

OCST

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Marcotti has the inside scoop that Wenger jumped just before he was pushed...do we believe him?

http://www.espn.com/soccer/club/arsenal/359/blog/post/3464097/why-arsene-wenger-really-decided-to-leave-arsenal
As well he should have. I don't see what choice he had.

There's nothing more he can do the rest of the season. Winning Europa gets a CL spot, but Arsenal have had that. Arsenal are in real danger of being caught by #7 (Burnley!) to fall out of the top six. A challenge for the PL title is not likely next year. The fans want to win the league. They should.

I just don't see how Arsenal can look at Wegner and see that he's the guy to get them to seriously contend, when he's had the tools of Arsenal at his disposal and hasn't done it for the last few years. He knows that on some level. But he built this club into a powerhouse and took it from one era to the next in a way that few have done in football. Getting sacked would be an indignity.

He's doing the right thing.
 
I'm not exaggerating when I say that yesterday's news has reawakened my general interest in soccer, let alone in Arsenal. As much as anything, I'm happy to have digested the news that the club was willing to force Wenger out against his will, rather than remain meek and subservient to him as long as he was winning trophies (real or fourth-place).

I hear the whole "be careful what you wish for..." argument regarding Wenger's departure, and I don't care. If Arsenal finishes 10th next year, well, that's not what I'm rooting for, but at least next season promises something different. Arsenal had become so, so terribly stale: not just the same (but slightly worse) results and same (but slightly worse) lack of player development, but the same answers in press conferences and the same mentality on the pitch and the same (but slightly increasing) indifference from fans of other clubs. I don't watch sports to watch the same thing over and over again. Next year is going to be different, and that automatically makes it exciting for me.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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A lot of outlets are talking about Luis Enrique. I'm not the most informed observer of his Barcelona sides but I'm a bit unconvinced. Sure, he won everything in 14-15 and La Liga again the next year. But my impression has always been that the credit really goes to the MSN being in their absolute prime and the sporting directors making two very big additions in Suarez and Rakitic that Enrique probably didn't influence much (if at all). Has he ever successfully built a side? Or brought through a bunch of young players and improved them?

IMO, people talking about coaches like Enrique and Ancelotti just don't have a realistic view of Arsenal as a club in general and their location in the success cycle right now. This isn't one of the truly biggest clubs in the world, with a ready made core of elite talent that just needs a steady and experience hand that has won the biggest trophies before. Its a top-level-but-not-quite-elite club that will be fighting against better resourced clubs domestically and internationally and that currently badly needs a rebuild. That demands a coach who has shown they can build something, work with younger players, and do more with a little bit less than some of their competitors.
 

67YAZ

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Before Barca, Enrique had two top-flight jobs. He lasted one season at Roma (2011-2012) where clashes with Totti, earned the scorn of supporters, and missed out on European qualification. He then did a single season at Celta (2013-2014), which went well enough (9th place). He then left for Barca. It’s a thin track record.

Enrique is known to be fiercely competitive and driven. He would bring a much different mentality and set a much different tone than a Wenger. Based on his relationships with Totti and Messi, I think you could expect Enrique to piss off some players.
 

coremiller

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The bigger problem for Arsenal is that they have shown no strategic vision over the last few windows. So they sort of need a rebuild, but they also have several star players in their late primes, e.g. Ozil (29, assuming they keep him), Mkhtaryan (29) and Aubameyang (28). And they don't have any pieces in the 22-24 range who project to be big stars entering their primes in 2-3 seasons, besides maybe Bellerin (who may not stick around). The squad has been built to win now. It's possible a new manager, with one or two additions, could do a quick turnaround next season. Where that leaves Arsenal in two years though, as their big-money stars age, is a big question.

There's also the issue with top clubs that there's a big feedback loop. It's hard to sign great players if you're not in the Champions League, and hard to get back into the CL without great players. City and Chelsea can do it, but they can overpay in wages if they need to, can Arsenal do that? If Arsenal have a couple of seasons where they finish in midtable, will they still able to get Aubamayengs and Ozils to come play for them? They already lost Sanchez.
 
It's hard to sign great players if you're not in the Champions League, and hard to get back into the CL without great players.
Liverpool seemed to manage this just fine under Klopp, no? Arsenal is still a really, really big club in the richest league in the world, and therefore an attractive destination even without Champions League football; with the right manager in place, I'm not worried about this.

Also, it's not so much about signing already great players - it's about signing good players and turning them into great players. Wenger used to do that routinely but of late seems to have started signing borderline great players and turning them into good players. Arsenal needs a manager capable of developing players again.
 

67YAZ

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Thinking about Enrique, I remember this piece by Jonathan Wilson from October. It’s framed around Koeman getting the boot from Arsenal, but is more broadly about managers from the Cruyff tree struggling outside the of Ajax & Barca. Wilson is overstating things a bit (Pep provides a strong counter example), but it does raise questions about Enrique.

He’s a manager that’s only had success with Barca & Barca B. It’s alluring to think that his intense personality will imbue the team with qualities Arsenal have lacked for several years now...but does he have the chops to develop and manage all the pieces of the organization that go into winning at the highest levels? Again, I think Jardim is the more attractive candidate because he has rebuilt Monaco while also winning a lot of games and developing world class talent.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2017/oct/24/ronald-koeman-everton-post-cruyffians-ajax-barcelona

Edit: For fun, here’s an interview with Jardim.
https://www.fourfourtwo.com/us/performance/training/leonardo-jardims-management-masterclass
 
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