Are the USWNT being unfairly criticized for their sportsmanship? Is it sexist?

Titans Bastard

has sunil gulati in his sights
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 15, 2002
9,659
I mean, it's entirely possible that goal difference will come into play if the US ties Sweden, but they probably don't need to celebrate their goals anymore.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
14,260
Still celebrating like they just won the World Cup. I don’t get it.
The USWNT are horrendous frontrunners, always have been.
Will be interesting to see how the new iteration reacts to a challenge, some of the past iterations got both shaky, and petulant when they had an actual match, and as the gap between them and the top teams closes that might be a ticket home.
 

DrewDawg

Dorito Dink
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
34,106
You know, MURICA! and all that but there’s a point where you can actually just ping it around the back for a bit. It’s not like they’re bringing on second stringers who need to prove they belong. I get that they can’t run the ball 3 times and punt or whatever but still.

Five goals in 80th minute and later is too much.

Additionally it’s possible now that Sweden tries to embarrass Thailand too if GD might matter. Most youth tourneys cap GD at 4 per game. Something similar should be done until talent equalizes.

COUNTERPOINT: We loved the US Dream Team and those blowouts.
 
Last edited:

InstaFace

MDLzera
Sep 27, 2016
7,590
You know, MURICA! and all that but there’s a point where you can actually just ping it around the back for a bit. It’s not like they’re bringing on second stringers who need to prove they belong. I get that they can’t run the ball 3 times and punt or whatever but still.

Five goals in 80th minute and later is too much.

Additionally it’s possible now that Sweden tries to embarrass Thailand too if GD might matter. Most youth tourneys cap GD at 4 per game. Something similar should be done until talent equalizes.

COUNTERPOINT: We loved the US Dream Team and those blowouts.
Better Counterpoint: These people are professional entertainers, paid to give 100% for 90 minutes and to relish every moment out there. If they're not stone cold killers who want to score every time they touch the ball, they wouldn't even be on the roster. If they just sat back and kicked it around, they'd get booed. It ceased being a game by 55', what do you think the people who paid hundreds of euros for a ticket wanted to see? More scoring, or "mercy"? This isn't youth sports, there's no character lesson to be taught here, they're professionals earning a paycheck. The purpose isn't skill-building or even recreation, it's entertainment. And maybe it's Maximus doing his "are you not entertained?" bit, but it's still way more entertaining to watch Morgan net 5 than it is to watch them kick the ball back and forth.

Secondly, Jill Ellis only gets so many opportunities to let her team get to work with each other, some of the players are international and others are just developing chemistry with the long-timers. Wasting half of one, even against lesser competition, would be malpractice on her part. Carli Lloyd is so upset to be starting from the bench that she's practically rabid. If the plan going in is to sub her on in the second half, would you want to be the one to tell her "hey Carli, actually I think you can keep that seat warm for longer, we're winning by too much"? I sure wouldn't. Let her get her game reps.

Lastly, I didn't see a lot of complaining back when Bill Belichick was running up the score. Or, yeah, the Dream Team (or most Olympic BB early-round games ever since). Or any sport in which we crush lesser teams - at least, not when it's dudes playing.
 

DrewDawg

Dorito Dink
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
34,106
You can compare the Thai women's team to professional NFL athletes if you like.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill
SoSH Member
Sep 9, 2008
26,114
AZ
You can compare the Thai women's team to professional NFL athletes if you like.
Why can't you? It's the word cup.

I'm not saying that you hold this view, but an awful lot of the hand wringing that is going around really does come off as griping that the little ladies did not act with sufficient deportment befitting their gender.

The three time word champions showed up and kicked ass. It's certainly not their fault or their problem that there aren't enough women's teams to make it so that all 24 can be competitive.

I hate the foot off the gas argument. It's disrespectful of the other team and I think it's exactly the same as the Patriots. This wasn't some November friendly. These games count, and FIFA says goals count.

If it were the third game of the round and they were 5 goals ahead in goal difference or whatever then maybe, but even then, I really don't give a crap that they kept playing the game that they went to France to play.
 

DrewDawg

Dorito Dink
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
34,106
Why can't you? It's the word cup.

I'm not saying that you hold this view, but an awful lot of the hand wringing that is going around really does come off as griping that the little ladies did not act with sufficient deportment befitting their gender.
EDIT: I'm loosening a bit on this, but I'll leave my post in it's entirety.

Because the Thai soccer team isn't compensated like actual professional athletes (one article estimated they make $5,000/year). Hell, OUR women aren't. It's simply not an even playing field like the NFL is. And to speak to one of your points, I do put some of the blame on FIFA.

And it has nothing to do with them being women, because lord knows when I see guys celebrating a first down in a game they're down 28-0 with 5 minutes left, I don't like it either. And I didn't like it when some team won 12-0 in the men's U20 WC either. It has nothing to do with gender.


Look, in the end, it's not a HUGE deal to me. For the most part, I mostly take some issue with the 5 goals in the last 10 minutes or so, and not really anything before that. In terms of soccer, I'm as jingoistic as they come--hell, the last 2 men's World Cups I've started the game threads full of MURICA!!!! It's just everyone knew Thailand had no chance. Some of the Thai players were crying after the game. If and when we play Canada, run that shit up.

Eh, I don't know. I'm inconsistent on this. Just *seemed* a bit too much.

EDIT:

I was reading some on the Thai team.

They beat Indonesia 13-0 in a friendly last year. And Cambodia 11-0. So, I don't know.
 

SoxFanInCali

has the rich, deep voice of a god and the penis of
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jun 3, 2005
11,519
California. Duh.
FWIW, Julie Foudy was discussing the game on ESPN and didn't have a problem with the final score (due to goal differential), but did say she thought they could have tempered the celebrations a bit at the end.
 

SocrManiac

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 15, 2006
2,543
Enfield, CT
I apologize for my earlier snarky comment- I wasn’t clear.

With the exception of their later celebrations, the US did nothing wrong. Things got a little over the top for the scoreline.

Thailand shouldn’t be in this position in the sport’s marquee event. If they were just “happy to be there,” it will evaporate quickly as they continue to set records for futility.

This issue is cropping up as major tournaments are accepting more teams. The group stage of the last Euro was horrible. The expanded men’s WC won’t be any better. I’m not a fan of the continental confederations getting guaranteed allocations anymore. Good teams sit at home while weak sides get in through geography. You need to do something to make sure you get a “World” Cup, but this is absurd.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill
SoSH Member
Sep 9, 2008
26,114
AZ
I don't disagree about the celebrations. And I'm a sucker for a good sportsmanship story like when the softball player blew out an achillies on a home run and the other team helped her around the bases. I think bat flips can get out of hand.

I just think sometimes asking teams to dial back their entire reason for being is sometimes too much. And I do worry there's a double standard. I also think sometimes teams have alterior motives. Just like I think Belichick sometimes wants to send a message maybe there was some of that with the women's soccer team today too. They had to wait a long time to play the final group game of the round and doubtlessly heard enough about the French team making a statement, etc. I think any edge in a tournament where the final 8 are going to be tough is good, and there are also some tough outs in the 16 if things go weird it's not necessarily a bad idea to have other teams think you're a juggernaut.
 

SocrManiac

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 15, 2006
2,543
Enfield, CT
I think we’re saying the same thing. I just cringed so hard when they showed the bench and Morgan celebrating the... Ninth? Tenth? Together. That was disrespectful. The Thai players crying on the pitch postgame was unpleasant as well. If this was Germany or France, fine. This wasn’t a team that had any place being in this tournament at this stage.

In the 2011 World Cup, the US blew somebody out and it hid some massive flaws that ultimately cost them the final. That happened again tonight. There were some things that the scoreline won’t show that I need to have faith the coaching staff caught. Rapinoe blasted a few crosses far out of bounds and her unpressured goal was a horribly placed shot- she put it in the only area the keeper had a chance. Mewis had two really bad dives in the box in the first half. They showed a ton of set pieces and didn’t execute particularly well on many of them.

There’s as much danger that they see themselves as a juggernaut. They certainly put a target on themselves. It’ll be interesting to see how this plays out.
 

InstaFace

MDLzera
Sep 27, 2016
7,590
For the record I agree about the celebrations, or at least, I get why complaints about that are valid. It doesn't require you to stop playing the game hard, to show the other team a little dignity.

We're only going to get one chance before the real tests (QFs+) to see where this team is actually at, and that's against Sweden. If we're still being careless with possessions in the attacking box against a world class defense like theirs, it will not bode well. But the only difference between facing the Thais and facing the Chileans (or the R16 opponent) will be the final scoreline being a bit more sane.
 

Dernells Casket n Flagon

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 24, 2008
3,526
I was definitely cringing as the goals kept coming after the 80th minute. Ideally, the team would have put some of the younger back of the roster players as subs to give them a chance to play on the big stage when they otherwise won't get off the bench. I do understand that if the plan was to get some of the players like Lloyd in game action, that it is the goal of the team to be most prepared to win the cup. Once you've got that lead though, just run back to your side of the pitch and reset after the goal unless it's your first career national team or world cup goal.
 

CodPiece XL

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 4, 2007
1,582
Scottsdale, AZ.
Meh...these were precious seconds the US team wasted by knee sliding, wheeling away, high fiving etc. They should have ran the ball back to the center circle in search of more goals instead of needless celebratory time wasting.
 

pedro1918

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 5, 2004
3,750
39°0′15″N 77°1′8″W
Put me in the camp of no issue with the final score, as they are professional athletes playing games that count, but the later post-goal celebrations made them look like fools.

And I turned off at 8-0.
 

Ale Xander

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 31, 2013
21,547
Why can't you? It's the word cup.

I'm not saying that you hold this view, but an awful lot of the hand wringing that is going around really does come off as griping that the little ladies did not act with sufficient deportment befitting their gender.

The three time word champions showed up and kicked ass. It's certainly not their fault or their problem that there aren't enough women's teams to make it so that all 24 can be competitive.

I hate the foot off the gas argument. It's disrespectful of the other team and I think it's exactly the same as the Patriots. This wasn't some November friendly. These games count, and FIFA says goals count.

If it were the third game of the round and they were 5 goals ahead in goal difference or whatever then maybe, but even then, I really don't give a crap that they kept playing the game that they went to France to play.
I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

lol boo hoo to anyone says that they should have stopped scoring. That's the goal (pun intended) of the Thai defense not the US. Play better or forfeit if you don't like it.


We're on to Santiago, chez Parc des Princes.
 

BaseballJones

goalpost mover
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
5,278
There's a place for both points of view in my opinion. It's totally fair to say that these athletes are not playing in some local friendly, but this is the biggest stage in the world, the World Cup, and since FIFA set the rules with goal differential potentially coming into play, then scoring more goals is, well, the goal. It's disrespectful to the game when you just pass it around and play keep-away and hold the ball. It's not if you're holding a 1-0 lead, but 10-0? Yes. Context matters.

That being said, there's a ton of merit to the idea that you score but don't need to celebrate like you just won the Cup. Scoring early, celebrate. Scoring to put your team up 12-0? Don't celebrate. Acknowledge that you are trying to score for the reasons above, but be a professional. Again, context matters.

You can rout a team and do it in a sportsmanlike manner.
 

Fred in Lynn

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 3, 2013
4,079
Not Lynn (or Ocean Side)
I wished they would have dialed it back at some point. I went from pumped up to wishing they wouldn’t score any more, kind of like the other prisoners reacted when Luke kept getting up each time Dragline would put him down. However, I think the criticism from commentators is out of line because it’s a competition. If a team doesn’t want another team to excessively celebrate then they should prevent them from scoring.

I was never a fan of Emmitt Smith, but I am still a fan of his TD celebrations. Giving the impression you’re a pro who’s done it before is more of a physiological beat down to the opposition than any choreographed dance could ever be. I wish they would have just handed the ball to the back judge and trotted back to center field after it was clear they had zero chance of losing the game. Then they’d be fielding questions from a small group of the media rather than a story in every media outlet around the world, which is, of course, a distraction that increases the chances they aren’t focused as much as they should be in an upcoming game. Just be smarter.
 

splendid splinter

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2001
957
Greenville, SC
Unfortunately for the Thai team, the US had to play that match as if goal differential was definitely going to matter. Imagine if they’d gone easy on them and won 5-0, then ended up looking at a potential three-way tie going into Match 3, with Chile facing Thailand. You think Chile wouldn’t lay the wood to the Thai team if it meant getting through? Then the US would be going home because they showed “restraint”.

Celebrating all those late goals like they just broke a scoreless tie in the final minute? I can see where they’d be open to some criticism there.
 

SoxFanInCali

has the rich, deep voice of a god and the penis of
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jun 3, 2005
11,519
California. Duh.
I get that people may be sensitive to whether people are criticizing them solely because they are women. But really, if Mo Salah ran halfway across the field wildly celebrating his 5th goal with the bench in a 13-0 wipeout of Wrexham in the 3rd round of the FA Cup, does anyone think he wouldn't have been criticized and mocked for it? Including from his own fans?

Score all you can, goal differential counts. But yeah, at some point dial the celebrations back a bit.
 

reggiecleveland

sublime
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Mar 5, 2004
20,486
Saskatoon Canada
The USWNT are horrendous frontrunners, always have been.
Will be interesting to see how the new iteration reacts to a challenge, some of the past iterations got both shaky, and petulant when they had an actual match, and as the gap between them and the top teams closes that might be a ticket home.
The American women in Soccer and Basketball are insufferable, at best. Most of their games are like MLB teams playing a Dutch professional league team. They have massive advantages, as do other western nations like Canada, over the rest of the world's female athletes, and generally rub it in and humiliate their opponents rather than recognize, how hard those women have it. When they do mention equality, rather than mention the need for other countries to provide the same opportunity to play sports they enjoyed, it is usually to complain that events, and leagues that are operating at a loss owe them more money because the men in leagues with Billion dollar profits earn more money. It's like Ruben Studdard demanding pay equity with Kelly Clarkson. The same can be said of the USa and Canadian's women's hockey teams, but they at least have each other to bash at. But to give them their due, a few times both those squads have shown notable mercy to outmatched teams.
 

coremiller

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
3,992
FWIW, the German men's team made a point of toning down their celebrations for their goals in the second half when they beat Brazil 7-1 in the 2014 semifinal, although that match had some unique circumstances (being in Brazil, for one, and Brazil was of course not a relative minnow like Thailand).
 

Kliq

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 31, 2013
9,543
Most of the blame should fall on FIFA, for putting such a wide talent disparity in the tournament, and also not putting a per game cap on GD, which only encourages a team like the USA to pulverize the Thai team to beyond embarrassment. If you haven't already, you should really read the book Thirty-One - Nil about what it is like for these tiny, underfunded nations to compete at the international level.

13-0 is really rare in international soccer today, though. The USMNT has never won a game by more than 8-0; and that includes tons of games against microscopic CONCACAF sides. I was looking through the results of the San Marino National Men's team, which is famous for being a minnow in an ocean of blue whales. Over the last five years, San Marino hasn't lost a game by greater than 9-0, and they have played giants like Germany, Italy and England in EURO qualifying groups where GD has absolutely mattered. Maybe the talent gap between San Marino and Germany is smaller than the US and Thailand, but I kind of doubt it. 13-0 is a lot.
 

DrewDawg

Dorito Dink
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
34,106
I’ve come around on the 13-0. The celebrations are different but after reading some posts here and elsewhere I’m good with it.
 

luckysox

Eeyore
Bronze Supporter
SoSH Member
Apr 21, 2009
7,231
S.E. Pennsylvania
The man-whining happening in this thread - as far as I can tell all of you are men, right? - is mind boggling. Boo hoo LOL is correct. You just scored your first WC goal, you celebrate. Sorry if it's 9-0 and the other team is gassed. You just broke the individual scoring record in a WC game, you celebrate. Sorry if it makes announcers wonder if it's the right thing because the other team looks really sad. You're the most brash, outspoken person on the #1 team in the world, when literally every other top-5 team thinks you're not as good this time around, and you score (even if the shot wasn't perfect and you actually gave the goalie a chance to make a save - but you know, she didn't, so I guess the shot was still "okay") YOU CELEBRATE. Sorry if the fact that you're a beast on the field even when you're not perfect offends the senses of critics and "fans" and middle-everything white men on their couches (maybe this is too far, but honestly, this is really pissing me off). Fuck all of this noise. I hate the crying in here from many people who only came in to shit on the USWNT - this time it's for blowing the doors off of an inferior opponent and enjoying themselves while doing it in the biggest tournament in all of sport. Last time it was because they DIDN'T blow the doors off of an inferior opponent in the biggest tournament in all of sport. If this were hockey or football or group play of the team "you" cheer for in the Men's World Cup, I imagine no one here would have the slightest hint of wadded panties; maybe one or two of you would arch a brow. Maybe.

Just FYI from a woman: women are just as competitive as men, especially women at the top of the mountain, which is just, you know, like men. I mean, the idea that they aren't or shouldn't be because it makes men uncomfortable or cringe - which is what all this hand wringing really comes down to - is what keeps this world so massively messed up for women. Even the women who are doing the handwringing out there in the world are doing it because someone, somewhere (which is to say everyone, everywhere) told them there's a certain way to BE as a woman, and celebrating your 5th goal in a blowout on a global broadcast just isn't it. It makes people feel icky, so stop it already!

This isn't your grandma or wife or daughter or that cute college soccer player you see in Starbucks. These women could crush every goddamned one of you with their thighs and shit down your throat before you hit the ground when they let go. You respect the game by playing it to the best of your ability, and by loving the outcome of your hard work and commitment and showing that love in whatever way you feel like showing it. And when the final whistle blows, you shake the hands of your opponents, you wish them the best, and you move on to whoever is next, knowing that 13-0 means only one thing now: you're sitting in the driver's seat should a tie breaker come into play. Oh, maybe two things: the other teams are going to have to earn the cup; you're not giving it to them, and now they all know it.

The USWNT didn't come to Paris to hug it out during a 90 minute match. They didn't come to Paris to help other countries make inroads in how they treat female athletes. They didn't come to make viewers comfortable. They didn't come to fucking bake a cake in the kitchen. They came to rip the throats out of the competition, and to defend their goddmaned well earned World Cup Championship. They can do all that other crap on any other stage in their sport - but NOT this one.
 

DLew On Roids

guilty of being sex
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Aug 30, 2001
13,662
The Pine Street Inn
That’s a great rant if you think for a second that everyone would be all, “YEAH, BRO!” if Pulisic danced with the subs after scoring his 5th against Martinique in a Gold Cup.

But people would be embarrassed and shit on him for doing it, so kinda not so much.

Way to get on a roll, though.
 

Zomp

Dope
Dope
Aug 28, 2006
11,282
The Slums of Shaolin
The man-whining happening in this thread - as far as I can tell all of you are men, right? - is mind boggling. Boo hoo LOL is correct. You just scored your first WC goal, you celebrate. Sorry if it's 9-0 and the other team is gassed. You just broke the individual scoring record in a WC game, you celebrate. Sorry if it makes announcers wonder if it's the right thing because the other team looks really sad. You're the most brash, outspoken person on the #1 team in the world, when literally every other top-5 team thinks you're not as good this time around, and you score (even if the shot wasn't perfect and you actually gave the goalie a chance to make a save - but you know, she didn't, so I guess the shot was still "okay") YOU CELEBRATE. Sorry if the fact that you're a beast on the field even when you're not perfect offends the senses of critics and "fans" and middle-everything white men on their couches (maybe this is too far, but honestly, this is really pissing me off). Fuck all of this noise. I hate the crying in here from many people who only came in to shit on the USWNT - this time it's for blowing the doors off of an inferior opponent and enjoying themselves while doing it in the biggest tournament in all of sport. Last time it was because they DIDN'T blow the doors off of an inferior opponent in the biggest tournament in all of sport. If this were hockey or football or group play of the team "you" cheer for in the Men's World Cup, I imagine no one here would have the slightest hint of wadded panties; maybe one or two of you would arch a brow. Maybe.

Just FYI from a woman: women are just as competitive as men, especially women at the top of the mountain, which is just, you know, like men. I mean, the idea that they aren't or shouldn't be because it makes men uncomfortable or cringe - which is what all this hand wringing really comes down to - is what keeps this world so massively messed up for women. Even the women who are doing the handwringing out there in the world are doing it because someone, somewhere (which is to say everyone, everywhere) told them there's a certain way to BE as a woman, and celebrating your 5th goal in a blowout on a global broadcast just isn't it. It makes people feel icky, so stop it already!

This isn't your grandma or wife or daughter or that cute college soccer player you see in Starbucks. These women could crush every goddamned one of you with their thighs and shit down your throat before you hit the ground when they let go. You respect the game by playing it to the best of your ability, and by loving the outcome of your hard work and commitment and showing that love in whatever way you feel like showing it. And when the final whistle blows, you shake the hands of your opponents, you wish them the best, and you move on to whoever is next, knowing that 13-0 means only one thing now: you're sitting in the driver's seat should a tie breaker come into play. Oh, maybe two things: the other teams are going to have to earn the cup; you're not giving it to them, and now they all know it.

The USWNT didn't come to Paris to hug it out during a 90 minute match. They didn't come to Paris to help other countries make inroads in how they treat female athletes. They didn't come to make viewers comfortable. They didn't come to fucking bake a cake in the kitchen. They came to rip the throats out of the competition, and to defend their goddmaned well earned World Cup Championship. They can do all that other crap on any other stage in their sport - but NOT this one.

Stop it. You’ve missed the point completely. The fact that we’re arguing about if the celebrations were a bit too much has nothing to do with women and everything to do with time and place.

This has nothing to do with the sex of the athlete. Nothing. In this thread there are comparisons to Brazil/Germany not because they are men, but because it’s the same sport on the same stage.

This thread has had good analysis of the women’s game and people are into it. Your post is insulting.
 

luckysox

Eeyore
Bronze Supporter
SoSH Member
Apr 21, 2009
7,231
S.E. Pennsylvania
Stop it. You’ve missed the point completely. The fact that we’re arguing about if the celebrations were a bit too much has nothing to do with women and everything to do with time and place.

This has nothing to do with the sex of the athlete. Nothing. In this thread there are comparisons to Brazil/Germany not because they are men, but because it’s the same sport on the same stage.

This thread has had good analysis of the women’s game and people are into it. Your post is insulting.
I will absolutely not stop it. The discussing it as if it is about “time and place” is insulting. time and place my butt. It’s ALWAYS about something else when it comes to women excelling at something that is traditionally a man’s domain. Except it isn’t. Ever ever ever. Just because you’re not trying to be sexist in how you view this doesn’t mean you are not being sexist. And just because you don’t realize it also doesn’t mean it’s not happening.
 

Zomp

Dope
Dope
Aug 28, 2006
11,282
The Slums of Shaolin
I will absolutely not stop it. The discussing it as if it is about “time and place” is insulting. time and place my butt. It’s ALWAYS about something else when it comes to women excelling at something that is traditionally a man’s domain. Except it isn’t. Ever ever ever. Just because you’re not trying to be sexist in how you view this doesn’t mean you are not being sexist. And just because you don’t realize it also doesn’t mean it’s not happening.

Do you really think we wouldn’t be talking about this if it happened at the Men’s World Cup? Or as SFIC said the FA Cup?
 

koufax32

He'll cry if he wants to...
SoSH Member
Dec 8, 2006
6,866
Duval
Do you really think we wouldn’t be talking about this if it happened at the Men’s World Cup? Or as SFIC said the FA Cup?

If I read Lucky correctly, I don’t think that matters. It seems like she’s saying that any criticism here, made by a man of/toward women footballers, is intrinsically sexist. Please tell me I’m wrong.
 

SoxFanInCali

has the rich, deep voice of a god and the penis of
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jun 3, 2005
11,519
California. Duh.
Honest answer. I do.
OK, I honestly am not trying to be a jerk here. In my view we were having a back-and-forth debate about the celebrations, with no name-calling, wondering if they were going a bit too far, and comparing what the reaction would have been if the celebrations were that exuberant in other similar situations. By the end the consensus was that there was nothing wrong with scoring the 13 goals (because goal differential counts) but that they could have dialed down the enthusiasm a little bit on the last few goals. Later on yesterday I saw Julie Foudy say the same thing on ESPN, so I thought it was reasonable.

Where did we go wrong in our thought process here? Is it bad that we were holding them to the same standard we would hold a men's team? Wouldn't it be worse to treat women's football as a different sport with different standards than the men's game? I compared it to an early round FA Cup game where Liverpool might be playing a team from a few divisions below them because I thought it was a good comp to the relative skill levels of the USWNT and Thailand.

I have watched every USWNT game in the World Cup and Olympics since the 1996 Atlanta Games. I've watched a good number of their friendlies as well. I've seen them pummel teams nearly this badly before, but I've never seen them celebrate the later goals that much. Yeah, I get it being a big deal for Pugh scoring her first WC goal, but for multi-time World/Olympic champs like Rapinoe, Lloyd, and Morgan it was a little surprising. I want to see them win as much as anyone else, enthusiastically celebrated 2015, criticized FIFA and US Soccer for making them play on turf when they don't do that for the men, and I also think that they should get every dollar that they can negotiate from US Soccer. I legitimately want to know where, in your opinion, my thinking is flawed so I can reflect on it.
 

luckysox

Eeyore
Bronze Supporter
SoSH Member
Apr 21, 2009
7,231
S.E. Pennsylvania
If I read Lucky correctly, I don’t think that matters. It seems like she’s saying that any criticism here, made by a man of/toward women footballers, is intrinsically sexist. Please tell me I’m wrong.
You’re wrong. I am criticizing, as sexist, the whining and complaining here and in the broader sports world, regarding the USWNT not being respectful enough or nice enough while dismantling an inferior foe on the grandest stage in all of sport, and not understanding the right time and place for the celebration of said dismantling. I think this criticism, of this team, after this game, is inherently sexist. I do not think that this criticism would be happening at the highest level of any men's sport. If it did, it would be much less intense, and much more based on the laundry. Example: if the Bruins skate to, let's say an 8-0 win tonight, would any of you who might also be hockey fans feel as if they should tone down their celebrations after a goal? I wouldn't!! At what point would you hope they'd start holding back when they have the chance to score? I would say NEVER! How about back in game 1 when they actually put up a 7 spot? Did anyone feel they should have taken it easy? I kept thinking, and am pretty sure I read in the game thread, "Pour it on!!" It was only the 1st game of the series, of a possible 7 - should they have held off a bit because the Blues looked, on that night, to be an inferior opponent on every level? Do you think they felt bad for STL? Should they have been nicer because it would have been in the best interests of hockey? And if that answer is "Well, it's not in the best interests of hockey!" I would ask you why, then, is it in the best interests of soccer in this instance?

I'm certain some of you are not very sexist in your regular lives at all, and I'm sure a lot of you don't mean to be even when you are. But I'm just as certain some of you are sexist in your regular lives and likely don't think about it much at all. And I know for a fact that plenty of members of this site who are men - plenty, not all - are absolutely sexist in this here because they can be. It's nice that people call them out when it's obvious. I understand that this particular criticism about this particular team does not seem obvious to many of you. But it is VERY obvious to me and to most of the women who I have been teammates with and who I am friends with that follow soccer (and many other women's sports) and are watching these matches. I've had this discussion today with a large group of my college basketball teams' alumnae, and out of about 25 of us in the chat, there's only 1 who thinks they should have held back, at 10 goals. If this happened in the men's WC, say for example, Germany vs. any developing nation that was in their 1st Cup appearance, and Germany dropped a 13 spot on said nation, no one would EXPECT that the men should have pulled back. No one. It would be discussed, but more like this: Commentator: "Wow, you have to wonder if they considered just passing it back and forth there across the field, but when the defense is that porous, what can be expected? I mean, how can the best #10 in the world NOT score when the ball is funneled through to him so easily? It would be disrespectful to the game not to finish there." That'd be about the end of it, I think.

If people want to get pissy about the celebrations, fine. But even this, I think, is about an ingrained idea that women are "nicer" than that, and should feel badly for their opponent when kicking their ass on the field at this level. Even the "greater good of growing the game" argument rings hollow to me. This isn't YMCA 7&8 year olds. I think something that is actually a symptom of systemic sexism is being wrapped in this idea of "time and place" and "respect," when in fact it is about the level of discomfort people can tolerate when watching or experiencing something that challenges everything they feel, and in fact how they actually "are" in the world. Women aren't supposed to be this ruthless. Obviously many of you disagree. But then, none of you walk around in this world as a woman, I don't think.
 

luckysox

Eeyore
Bronze Supporter
SoSH Member
Apr 21, 2009
7,231
S.E. Pennsylvania
OK, I honestly am not trying to be a jerk here. In my view we were having a back-and-forth debate about the celebrations, with no name-calling, wondering if they were going a bit too far, and comparing what the reaction would have been if the celebrations were that exuberant in other similar situations. By the end the consensus was that there was nothing wrong with scoring the 13 goals (because goal differential counts) but that they could have dialed down the enthusiasm a little bit on the last few goals. Later on yesterday I saw Julie Foudy say the same thing on ESPN, so I thought it was reasonable.

Where did we go wrong in our thought process here? Is it bad that we were holding them to the same standard we would hold a men's team? Wouldn't it be worse to treat women's football as a different sport with different standards than the men's game? I compared it to an early round FA Cup game where Liverpool might be playing a team from a few divisions below them because I thought it was a good comp to the relative skill levels of the USWNT and Thailand.

I have watched every USWNT game in the World Cup and Olympics since the 1996 Atlanta Games. I've watched a good number of their friendlies as well. I've seen them pummel teams nearly this badly before, but I've never seen them celebrate the later goals that much. Yeah, I get it being a big deal for Pugh scoring her first WC goal, but for multi-time World/Olympic champs like Rapinoe, Lloyd, and Morgan it was a little surprising. I want to see them win as much as anyone else, enthusiastically celebrated 2015, criticized FIFA and US Soccer for making them play on turf when they don't do that for the men, and I also think that they should get every dollar that they can negotiate from US Soccer. I legitimately want to know where, in your opinion, my thinking is flawed so I can reflect on it.
I think I addressed the 1st bolded in the last post I made, or I hope I did. I guess I just disagree that the same standard is being used.


And my thoughts on Julie Foudy: she has a long-running gig with the most mainstream sports network in the country and has to make this issue an issue because the sports entertainment world, generally run by men and out to get clicks and viewers, has decided it's an issue. It makes for good TV and good column-writing, and Julie Foudy isn't going to tell them to shove it even if she thinks they should, on account of they write the checks. But I've been in a room with Julie Foudy wherein the discussion was around the inequities women face in athletics when compared to their male peers at the same level. I'm willing to bet she has a bit of a different view behind closed doors. Can you see the problem just with this, though? I mean, even this example, using Julie Foudy as the gauge of whether or not you should be feeling the way you're feeling, is an issue. And I'm not at all trying to be a jerk to you, but rather, I am pointing out the pervasiveness of ingrained sexism in our world. One of the best and most well-known players in the history of US soccer, men's or women's, is possibly (I'd say likely from my own experience in her presence, but I can live with possibly) saying something different on camera than she is off camera regarding this issue because she knows that her bosses don't want to hear about it being ok for the girls to celebrate their amazing accomplishment of scoring a goal in the World Cup by jumping into each other's arms and smiling ear to ear and executing the goal scoring celebration they've been working on for 6 months. This chance may never come again in their lives. I mean, you're a soccer person, right, or you wouldn't be here. Where would you put scoring a goal in the WC on the list of things you would experience if you could in your lifetime? If it's as high on your list as it is mine, I'd expect it'd be next to impossible to contain your celebration. I am arguing that there would be no expectation of containment for a men's team player in the same circumstance as Mal Pugh, Alex Morgan and company found themselves last night.
If this were a men's WC game, this story would have been whittled down to a sentence or two during the broadcast, maybe a mention in the post game, and completely gone by the next day. And that's how it should be for the women, too.

As for the 2nd bolded, they should get the exact same pay as their male counterparts, period. And I think that anyone who thinks they don't deserve as much pay is relying on sexist building blocks to form that opinion.
 

riboflav

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 20, 2006
7,402
NOVA
You’re wrong. I am criticizing, as sexist, the whining and complaining here and in the broader sports world, regarding the USWNT not being respectful enough or nice enough while dismantling an inferior foe on the grandest stage in all of sport, and not understanding the right time and place for the celebration of said dismantling. I think this criticism, of this team, after this game, is inherently sexist. I do not think that this criticism would be happening at the highest level of any men's sport. If it did, it would be much less intense, and much more based on the laundry. Example: if the Bruins skate to, let's say an 8-0 win tonight, would any of you who might also be hockey fans feel as if they should tone down their celebrations after a goal? I wouldn't!! At what point would you hope they'd start holding back when they have the chance to score? I would say NEVER! How about back in game 1 when they actually put up a 7 spot? Did anyone feel they should have taken it easy? I kept thinking, and am pretty sure I read in the game thread, "Pour it on!!" It was only the 1st game of the series, of a possible 7 - should they have held off a bit because the Blues looked, on that night, to be an inferior opponent on every level? Do you think they felt bad for STL? Should they have been nicer because it would have been in the best interests of hockey? And if that answer is "Well, it's not in the best interests of hockey!" I would ask you why, then, is it in the best interests of soccer in this instance?

I'm certain some of you are not very sexist in your regular lives at all, and I'm sure a lot of you don't mean to be even when you are. But I'm just as certain some of you are sexist in your regular lives and likely don't think about it much at all. And I know for a fact that plenty of members of this site who are men - plenty, not all - are absolutely sexist in this here because they can be. It's nice that people call them out when it's obvious. I understand that this particular criticism about this particular team does not seem obvious to many of you. But it is VERY obvious to me and to most of the women who I have been teammates with and who I am friends with that follow soccer (and many other women's sports) and are watching these matches. I've had this discussion today with a large group of my college basketball teams' alumnae, and out of about 25 of us in the chat, there's only 1 who thinks they should have held back, at 10 goals. If this happened in the men's WC, say for example, Germany vs. any developing nation that was in their 1st Cup appearance, and Germany dropped a 13 spot on said nation, no one would EXPECT that the men should have pulled back. No one. It would be discussed, but more like this: Commentator: "Wow, you have to wonder if they considered just passing it back and forth there across the field, but when the defense is that porous, what can be expected? I mean, how can the best #10 in the world NOT score when the ball is funneled through to him so easily? It would be disrespectful to the game not to finish there." That'd be about the end of it, I think.

If people want to get pissy about the celebrations, fine. But even this, I think, is about an ingrained idea that women are "nicer" than that, and should feel badly for their opponent when kicking their ass on the field at this level. Even the "greater good of growing the game" argument rings hollow to me. This isn't YMCA 7&8 year olds. I think something that is actually a symptom of systemic sexism is being wrapped in this idea of "time and place" and "respect," when in fact it is about the level of discomfort people can tolerate when watching or experiencing something that challenges everything they feel, and in fact how they actually "are" in the world. Women aren't supposed to be this ruthless. Obviously many of you disagree. But then, none of you walk around in this world as a woman, I don't think.
Good Post. I am a man who coaches very competitive varsity girls basketball. Several of the players in our program have gone on to play major D-1 college over the past 10 years. This discussion is a major topic and point of contention right now in our region. Many of the female athletes and their coaches are beyond frustrated with the double standard and blatant sexist expectations for female competitors. I can say unequivocally that female athletes are expected to smile and be and play nice at all times. Same goes with the coaches even if those coaches are male. Our girls cannot so much as look at an official the wrong way without getting a T. I cannot literally say anything without getting a T. I have received one T in my career and that was this year in a rivalry game in the 4th quarter of a tie game when my PG was taken out on a clear trip in space and no call was made. It was the second time it had occurred in that game. I yelled "Unbelievable!" as I walked away from the official and he T'd me up. Meanwhile, our boys coach gets in the faces of officials, points his finger, and rants and raves much to the delight of the crowd, our alumni, and our administration. If I did 4% of what he does I would be fired and not given another girls job in our region. It is that bad. The same expectations go with sportsmanship toward our opponents. While boys will bragg, point to the crowd or to themselves, and show off constantly, our girls are expected to maintain strict decorum at all times. It is nauseating to be in a meeting with my AD the day after a game because I had a player tell the crowd who had taunted all game to shush. She was suspended by my AD for one game (btw, the principal is female and agreed with the suspension). Meanwhile, a JV boys player pushed an opposing player this season and received a stern warning. This is common among our region and from what I can gather at national coaches meetings it's even worse in less progressive areas. "Be nice" is a phrase I do not go aa week without hearing to describe how my girls should behave.

FTR, I am not advocating poor sportsmanship and I recognize the differences between high school and professional athletics (I would not expect to see big bat flips in high school baseball or softball e.g.) but it is simply the case in my experience that female athletes are held to much higher standards in sportsmanship than their male peers.
 

luckysox

Eeyore
Bronze Supporter
SoSH Member
Apr 21, 2009
7,231
S.E. Pennsylvania
Just as an FYI, the USWNT is the 4th story on my local news tonight - not for their play and their winning, but for causing a "controversy over sportsmanship at the World Cup." Local. News. Do we think a men's team would experience a similar fate?
 

swiftaw

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2009
1,933
As for the 2nd bolded, they should get the exact same pay as their male counterparts, period. And I think that anyone who thinks they don't deserve as much pay is relying on sexist building blocks to form that opinion.
Out of curiosity, do you believe this should apply to all sports? For example, do you believe that WNBA players should be paid the same as their NBA counterparts? I'm not asking to be difficult or contrary, I'm asking because I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts on this. I can see both sides of the argument, on one hand, if the women are doing the same work as the men then should be paid the same, but on the other side there is the supply and demand economics.
 

Titans Bastard

has sunil gulati in his sights
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 15, 2002
9,659
Just as an FYI, the USWNT is the 4th story on my local news tonight - not for their play and their winning, but for causing a "controversy over sportsmanship at the World Cup." Local. News. Do we think a men's team would experience a similar fate?
I don't think it's necessarily sexist to take objection to what some might consider excessive celebrations late in a total beatdown — as long as you have a track record of doing so in all scenarios — but this really rings true to me. I think male soccer fans would discuss similar sportsmanship issues if they came up in the context of a men's game, but I think it's undeniably true that a rather minor issue like what happened in the US-Thailand game (if you even consider it to be an issue at all, which many people reasonably don't) would not get nearly as much attention if it weren't a women's game.

I also think that this controversy is obscuring a much larger sexist issue, which is the lack of support and investment in women's soccer worldwide that makes a 13-0 scoreline at a World Cup possible. So many women on so many teams at the WC have had to go through an unbelievable amount of crap just to be here.
 

Joe Sixpack

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Sep 9, 2002
3,955
Mansfield, MA
Out of curiosity, do you believe this should apply to all sports? For example, do you believe that WNBA players should be paid the same as their NBA counterparts? I'm not asking to be difficult or contrary, I'm asking because I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts on this. I can see both sides of the argument, on one hand, if the women are doing the same work as the men then should be paid the same, but on the other side there is the supply and demand economics.
WNBA players deserve the same player compensation as a percentage of overall revenue as their NBA counterparts, yes. It's something they've been fighting for but haven't gotten yet. Many of the top women have to take seasons off to play overseas to make decent money, which stinks.
 

BaseballJones

goalpost mover
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
5,278
Out of curiosity, do you believe this should apply to all sports? For example, do you believe that WNBA players should be paid the same as their NBA counterparts? I'm not asking to be difficult or contrary, I'm asking because I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts on this. I can see both sides of the argument, on one hand, if the women are doing the same work as the men then should be paid the same, but on the other side there is the supply and demand economics.
I can't speak for soccer, but I can for basketball (I'm connected to the WNBA, FWIW). WNBA players do not "do the same work" as NBA players. The season isn't even close to as long, especially counting playoffs. And the simple economics of the two are light years apart. The WNBA would not exist if it wasn't heavily subsidized by the NBA. The NBA...has no such problems. And I'm someone who is a HUGE supporter of women's athletics, love the WNBA and women's sports of all kinds, and have a wife who played D1 sports and have a daughter who plays college basketball. But the realities are the realities.
 

Awesome Fossum

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
1,463
Austin, TX
Can we split the macro-level womens sports stuff into a new thread? I've been thinking about starting one around the WNBA and the stuff that's going on with pro women's hockey, and this is all a great start. But it sort of sucks that our WWC thread has already devolved to this.
 

SoxFanInCali

has the rich, deep voice of a god and the penis of
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jun 3, 2005
11,519
California. Duh.
As for the 2nd bolded, they should get the exact same pay as their male counterparts, period. And I think that anyone who thinks they don't deserve as much pay is relying on sexist building blocks to form that opinion.
On this topic, we had a pretty detailed discussion about it when the lawsuits were first filed. I think in principle everyone agrees that the pay should be equalized. The complexity comes in that the pay structures are totally different for the men's and women's teams. The men are paid if they are called into the team only, while the women are signed to contracts which pays them salaries whether they are called in or not, whether they are injured or take a leave for pregnancy, and they are provided medical benefits that the men aren't. It seems like it's designed to combine their participation on the USWNT with the NWSL in an attempt to keep the league running, while on the men's side the USMNT money they earn is not in any way related to their club salaries (whether they play for MLS or a foreign league). I'd be interested to hear your opinion on how best to equalize the salaries if these different structures are maintained, whether the different structures should be scrapped and the NWSL should be allowed to sink or swim on its own, etc.

The one thing everyone immediately agreed on is that the women should never have been forced to play the 2015 World Cup on turf, and they should be receiving the same per diem and hotel/travel accommodations as the men. There really isn't any excuse for there to be a difference in those benefits.
 

OilCanShotTupac

Sunny von Bulow
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Jan 10, 2004
16,715
The 718
I get that people may be sensitive to whether people are criticizing them solely because they are women. But really, if Mo Salah Jurgen Klopp ran halfway across the field wildly celebrating his 5th goal a freak victory off a freak 96th-minute goal from a with the benchwarmer in a derby,13-0 wipeout of Wrexham in the 3rd round of the FA Cup, does anyone think he wouldn't have been criticized and mocked for it? Including from his own fans? Probably not, since it's a just a game for him but the World Cup for the other side....

Score all you can, goal differential counts. But yeah, at some point dial the celebrations back a bit. At least Thailand didn't complain about the wind ;)
FTFY
 
Last edited:

OilCanShotTupac

Sunny von Bulow
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Jan 10, 2004
16,715
The 718
I’m just having some gentle fun with SFiC, whom I’ve known in meatspace for a frighteningly long time according to recently surfaced ancient Bash photos.

No the team shouldn’t be fined. Klopp literally crossed a line. He had no business being on the pitch. The team did something that is routine and certainly legal but did it perhaps distastefully.
 

Gunfighter 09

wants to be caribou ken
Staff member
Dope
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2005
7,050
KNKX
Just as an FYI, the USWNT is the 4th story on my local news tonight - not for their play and their winning, but for causing a "controversy over sportsmanship at the World Cup." Local. News. Do we think a men's team would experience a similar fate?
I don't think anyone here is defending ESPN or Fox against what you are saying. It is a really stupid thing to have as a multi day story and if FIFA doesn't want to see 13-0 score lines they should remove GD and Goals scored as tie breakers.

But perhaps you can help us determine which posts you were referring to here:

The man-whining happening in this thread - as far as I can tell all of you are men, right? - is mind boggling.

I think some of the issue is that the USWNT are the Patriots, Warriors or 2015 Rhonda Rousey in this competition. They are unquestioned favorites, but they have flaws (no left back, shaky GK, way too cross happy against solid defenses, Ertz probably should be back at CB). They have stars with gigantic personalities. They have structural advantages relative to their direct competition that some consider unfair. Tearing them down is going to be part of the media narrative because the crown is heavy, not exclusively because that crown is sitting on women's heads. They unquestionably face some bullshit due to the fact that this is women's sports. But fans wanting to see vocal and cocky favorites fail and the media pushing that narrative is a challenge that all great champions and sports dynasties face, regardless of sport or gender. It's dumb, its more dumb considering the structural issues the USWNT is trying to address, but it is absolutely part of the business and I imagine the team is not one bit surprised by it.

On this topic, we had a pretty detailed discussion about it when the lawsuits were first filed. I think in principle everyone agrees that the pay should be equalized. The complexity comes in that the pay structures are totally different for the men's and women's teams. The men are paid if they are called into the team only, while the women are signed to contracts which pays them salaries whether they are called in or not, whether they are injured or take a leave for pregnancy, and they are provided medical benefits that the men aren't. It seems like it's designed to combine their participation on the USWNT with the NWSL in an attempt to keep the league running, while on the men's side the USMNT money they earn is not in any way related to their club salaries (whether they play for MLS or a foreign league). I'd be interested to hear your opinion on how best to equalize the salaries if these different structures are maintained, whether the different structures should be scrapped and the NWSL should be allowed to sink or swim on its own, etc.

The one thing everyone immediately agreed on is that the women should never have been forced to play the 2015 World Cup on turf, and they should be receiving the same per diem and hotel/travel accommodations as the men. There really isn't any excuse for there to be a difference in those benefits.

Bonuses for winning competition (dont laugh at the concept of the USMNT winning bonuses any time soon) and coaching / training staff salaries are other areas that can be equalized, correct?
 
Last edited: