Are the Pats the worst team in the NFL?

[cshea]

Can't start Maye against San Francisco. I've been pro playing Maye, even behind a bad line, but the line was too much of a shitshow last night. They need to reach a baseline of at least knowing who they are supposed to block and attempt to get into the way of that guy. I'm not sure what is to be gained developmentally by having him face a free rusher (sometimes multiple free rushers) in his face .5 seconds after receiving the snap. The free rushers are coming with the veteran helping set the protections.

Even if they are bad due to talent deficiencies they need to hit some sort of baseline performace for a few weeks before I consider putting Maye back there. They have 14 games left this season, hopefully they get to that point but I do acknowledge that at some point they'll have no choice as either Brissett gets hurt or there's just going to need to throw him out there to get a feel for if he's the guy.

 

[Salva135]

Can't start Maye against San Francisco. I've been pro playing Maye, even behind a bad line, but the line was too much of a shitshow last night. They need to reach a baseline of at least knowing who they are supposed to block and attempt to get into the way of that guy. I'm not sure what is to be gained developmentally by having him face a free rusher (sometimes multiple free rushers) in his face .5 seconds after receiving the snap. The free rushers are coming with the veteran helping set the protections.

Even if they are bad due to talent deficiencies they need to hit some sort of baseline performace for a few weeks before I consider putting Maye back there. They have 14 games left this season, hopefully they get to that point but I do acknowledge that at some point they'll have no choice as either Brissett gets hurt or there's just going to need to throw him out there to get a feel for if he's the guy.

This is such a dumb concept to me. There are no perfect circumstances in the NFL. There are always going to be talent deficiencies on a team that is trying to build. We might be waiting until season 3 to find that baseline. We gave Jacoby a shot to hold down the fort, and I was hoping it would last more than 3 games, but here we are. If you're afraid to let a professional do his job because of the big bad scary 49ers, then I don't know what they're doing. The Vikings weren't scared last week.

How about this, here's the game where Maye becomes an NFL legend - or some shit like that.

 

[cshea]

I understand there is never going to be perfect circumstances. I acknowledged that regardless of what happens, they're going to need to play him at some point this season. I have no issues putting him behind a talent deficient line. It's the NFL, he's going to take hits. It's not going to be a brick wall in front of him. Got it. I didn't have a problem with him getting mop up duty last night.

I have more of a problem with the miscommunication and missed assignments from the line. Developmentally, not sure how it helps him to have a guy in his face immediately after the snap play after play. I'm sure he will make a lot of off platform plays that will wow. That could lead also to bad habits that they then need to correct when they get a real line. They have 14 games left in the season and no rush. To me, there's no harm to sitting him another 2-3 weeks while the line (hopefully) stabilizes with some players getting healthier and returning from injury (Lowe, Sow, Strange). As I said, that may never happen and at some point he's got to go in but there's also no reason to force it this early in the season.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

The overall stats from last night's game won't help make the argument that the Pats aren't the worst team in the NFL, or that they're anywhere but the bottom 2 1/2.

First Downs: NE 11 NYJ 27
Total Yards: NE 139 NYJ 400
Yards per play: NE 2.6 NYJ 5.7
Sacks taken: NE 7-59 NYJ 2-14
TOP: NE 19:56 NYJ 40:04

By every conceivable measure it was one of the very worst performances in modern team history. They literally did nothing right. After sacks were accounted for, the Pats had a total of 61 passing yards. That's amateur hour.

We are in for some very ugly times ahead if they can't figure some shit out. I understand things will not be smooth, but holy shit this was a dreadful performance.

 

[johnmd20]

This is such a dumb concept to me. There are no perfect circumstances in the NFL. There are always going to be talent deficiencies on a team that is trying to build. We might be waiting until season 3 to find that baseline. We gave Jacoby a shot to hold down the fort, and I was hoping it would last more than 3 games, but here we are. If you're afraid to let a professional do his job because of the big bad scary 49ers, then I don't know what they're doing. The Vikings weren't scared last week.

How about this, here's the game where Maye becomes an NFL legend - or some shit like that.

Man, I very much agree. "You can't play him against SF," is wimpy ass bullshit.

If you don't think he's ready, don't play him. If you do, play him. The opponent shouldn't matter, these are football players. Do you think Maye is shaking in his pants if he gets the chance to face SF? I bet he's chomping at the bit.

One of the main problems with the NFL right now is that teams are playing scared from the jump. Nobody is tested in training camp. Nobody plays in the preseason. Nobody is getting any reps until it is week 1 and then every WR has a soft tissue injury because they aren't ready for game speed and every QB fucking sucks because they aren't ready for game speed.

Thus, QB production is at a 20 year low. So why not play Maye? Jacoby ain't it. He can't move.

 

[Auger34]

32. Panthers
31. Giants
30. Pats

Yeah, this is exactly how I would have it too.

I wouldn't play Maye until the offensive line has rolled out the same combo for a few weeks so those guys can gel and hopefully play better

 

[johnmd20]

The overall stats from last night's game won't help make the argument that the Pats aren't the worst team in the NFL, or that they're anywhere but the bottom 2 1/2.

First Downs: NE 11 NYJ 27
Total Yards: NE 139 NYJ 400
Yards per play: NE 2.6 NYJ 5.7
Sacks taken: NE 7-59 NYJ 2-14
TOP: NE 19:56 NYJ 40:04

By every conceivable measure it was one of the very worst performances in modern team history. They literally did nothing right. After sacks were accounted for, the Pats had a total of 61 passing yards. That's amateur hour.

We are in for some very ugly times ahead if they can't figure some shit out. I understand things will not be smooth, but holy shit this was a dreadful performance.

The main problem is Jacoby. He's got no chance if there is any rush whatsoever. He's like Cousins but with a worse arm.

Even Rodgers yesterday looked good because he can finally move. The handful of his runs were impressive for him, and he looked like a completely different player than he did Week 1.

Jacoby can't move. Maye, at least, can.

 

[johnmd20]

Yeah, this is exactly how I would have it too.

I wouldn't play Maye until the offensive line has rolled out the same combo for a few weeks so those guys can gel and hopefully play better

Texans didn't have a good line last year and were riddled with injuries. Seemed to work out ok for CJ Stroud, which even included a playoff win.

Play your best players and see how it looks! Maye isn't going to get killed.

 

[Auger34]

Texans didn't have a good line last year and were riddled with injuries. Seemed to work out ok for CJ Stroud, which even included a playoff win.

Play your best players and see how it looks! Maye isn't going to get killed.

I'll be honest, after watching that game last night, I do have a fear that Maye could get injured or concussed with that level of protection

 

[Salva135]

Man, I very much agree. "You can't play him against SF," is wimpy ass bullshit.

If you don't think he's ready, don't play him. If you do, play him. The opponent shouldn't matter, these are football players. Do you think Maye is shaking in his pants if he gets the chance to face SF? I bet he's chomping at the bit.

One of the main problems with the NFL right now is that teams are playing scared from the jump. Nobody is tested in training camp. Nobody plays in the preseason. Nobody is getting any reps until it is week 1 and then every WR has a soft tissue injury because they aren't ready for game speed and every QB fucking sucks because they aren't ready for game speed.

Thus, QB production is at a 20 year low. So why not play Maye? Jacoby ain't it. He can't move.

I mean, the alternative is what? Watch Jacoby score zero points? Who exactly is benefiting from that experience?

Maybe the offensive line improves because Maye works better in the pocket? We all know it's a symbiotic relationship.

 

[johnmd20]

I'll be honest, after watching that game last night, I do have a fear that Maye could get injured or concussed with that level of protection

Any player in the NFL can get injured on any play. Look at the injuries happening already this year. None of them are because offensive lines can't block. It's all TEs and RBs and WRs.

Maye can take a hit. He can also move. If the Patriots' goal is to lose the rest of their games, then play Jacoby and watch the progress of every player on the team suffer. Or they can try to use the guy they picked 3rd in the draft, who can move, has a great arm, and is the future of the team.

If the goal is to just avoid injuries, nobody should start in any NFL game.

 

[Salva135]

Any player in the NFL can get injured on any play. Look at the injuries happening already this year. None of them are because offensive lines can't block. It's all TEs and RBs and WRs.

Maye can take a hit. He can also move. If the Patriots' goal is to lose the rest of their games, then play Jacoby and watch the progress of every player on the team suffer. Or they can try to use the guy they picked 3rd in the draft, who can move, has a great arm, and is the future of the team.

If the goal is to just avoid injuries, nobody should start in any NFL game.

I think there's an argument to be made that compared to the other major sports, there's an uncompensated risk, but the bottom line is these guys get paid generational amounts of money to play football. So let them play. It's not going to get better in game 7 or 8 or some other random fantasy. The best player in our history would laugh at the idea of sitting on the bench because he doesn't feel ready.

 

[quint]

I mean, the alternative is what? Watch Jacoby score zero points? Who exactly is benefiting from that experience?

Maybe the offensive line improves because Maye works better in the pocket? We all know it's a symbiotic relationship.

Did you not watch the final series last night?

The Jets were playing about as vanilla as they possibly could given the circumstance, and Maye got nailed three times. Three.
Now extrapolate that over the entirety of a competitive contest. Who is benefiting from that?

 

[scottyno]

I think there's an argument to be made that compared to the other major sports, there's an uncompensated risk, but the bottom line is these guys get paid generational amounts of money to play football. So let them play. It's not going to get better in game 7 or 8 or some other random fantasy. The best player in our history would laugh at the idea of sitting on the bench because he doesn't feel ready.

That player literally argued a few weeks ago that rookie qbs shouldn't be playing because they aren't ready

 

[Mooch]

Not only are the Pats near the bottom of the league in on-field talent but there's also this: New England is now the second least analyticly advanced organization in the NFL according to this poll: https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/41328710/nfl-analytics-survey-2024-most-least-analytically-inclined-teams-predictions-stats

This is the first time New England has been listed towards the bottom since the survey began in 2020.

 

[Salva135]

So Maye comes in for a few tosses during a 31-3 blowout to the Texans and we're supposed to feel good about the future? We're all waiting for the perfect world where we got a solid OL and now, in 2026, he can finally play the game when it counts. Look, I'm not desperate for this guy to play but the alternative is uncompetitive football in the interest of who knows what.

 

[BigJimEd]

That player literally argued a few weeks ago that rookie qbs shouldn't be playing because they aren't ready

Yes, that best player in our history said these young QBs need more development time.
He's said numerous time that it is better for a young QB to sit, watch and learn from a very QB. Said he learned a lot watching Drew his rookie season. Plus his 5 seasons at Michigan.

 

[Salva135]

Did you not watch the final series last night?

The Jets were playing about as vanilla as they possibly could given the circumstance, and Maye got nailed three times. Three.
Now extrapolate that over the entirety of a competitive contest. Who is benefiting from that?

And I've said it's almost more dangerous when you throw in young QBs in garbage time. The game is out of reach and the level of effort on the OL is likely much lower.

 

[SMU_Sox]

They are a bottom 5 team talent wise with their injuries. They won’t lose most games by 3 TDs though. Last night was a bit of an extreme.

Michael Jordan and Caedan Wallace got hurt last night.
OT wise they’ve either lost the follow guys or they just didn’t work out: Calvin Anderson (would have been nice if he was a swing tackle!), Chuks, Lowe, and now Wallace. So they are on OT5 at one spot.
I’ll keep beating the drum that Onwenu is an OG.
OG lost: Strange, Sow, Michael Jordan. So on OG 4 at one spot.
Center they lost Jake Andrews but he’s just a backup.

They were down 4 guys before last night! Yikes. That plus a rookie coaching staff and a short week on the road. Just a lot of factors why it was such a blowout loss… I still think they win 4-6 games but you will likely see 3-5 more of these types of non-competitive losses.

 

[SMU_Sox]

And I've said it's almost more dangerous when you throw in young QBs in garbage time. The game is out of reach and the level of effort on the OL is likely much lower.

Jeff Schwartz just talked about how this is not the case with Bill Barnwell. Kind of a shitty thing to assume. Most OL get fired up protecting a young QB in garbage time… they are professionals. Plus you think they want to not play hard and get their guy injured?

 

[j-man]

the pats and denver are the same team
we have played our rookie qb and its been bad in 2024
mayo will at least run the ball and sit up boot action
peyton is playing madden with the 3 yard passes every down
u have a easyer sch too Tenn Zona Chi mia 2x jax indy rams u couild win haif of those 8 and have 5 wins

 

[BigSoxFan]

At some point, Maye is going to get forced in there. This OL is a mess, clearly, but there is no guarantee the 2025 OL is materially better. Your stud top 10 pick could be a Robert Gallery or something. Your FA RT pickup could tear an ACL in training camp. He’s clearly going to play from Week 1 next year unless he’s hurt.

I’m fine with him playing as early as Week 5. I wouldn’t throw him out on the road against a top 3 team but injury risk is always there.

There was an energy shift when Maye came in. Everybody loves Brissett the person but it’ll be hard to keep WRs engaged if they keep doing Sunday cardio work.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

The overall stats from last night's game won't help make the argument that the Pats aren't the worst team in the NFL, or that they're anywhere but the bottom 2 1/2.

First Downs: NE 11 NYJ 27
Total Yards: NE 139 NYJ 400
Yards per play: NE 2.6 NYJ 5.7
Sacks taken: NE 7-59 NYJ 2-14
TOP: NE 19:56 NYJ 40:04

By every conceivable measure it was one of the very worst performances in modern team history. They literally did nothing right. After sacks were accounted for, the Pats had a total of 61 passing yards. That's amateur hour.

We are in for some very ugly times ahead if they can't figure some shit out. I understand things will not be smooth, but holy shit this was a dreadful performance.

Thank you. I didn't pull the numbers for my post because they are sad but anyone expecting seven or even six wins needs to show us their work.

I have no clue what Maye offers and I am open to him starting but if the last few weeks are any indication, he will be running for his life a lot. As was noted, he got planted a few times and that's likely to continue as long as the Pats use swiss cheese for pass protection.

This team is bad right now and its hard to see how they can improve much. I am holding out hope because things can change but I won't be passing up any invites that compete with playoff games this upcoming winter.

 

[j-man]

u guys will have like 150 mil in cap room next offseason sign 3 OL A TE 1 WR get barrmore back sign a CB and who knows in 25

 

[P'tucket rhymes with...]

u guys will have like 150 mil in cap room next offseason sign 3 OL A TE 1 WR get barrmore back sign a CB and who knows in 25

As always, though, the question will be are the groceries worth the money we have to spend on them?

Jeff Schwartz just talked about how this is not the case with Bill Barnwell. Kind of a shitty thing to assume. Most OL get fired up protecting a young QB in garbage time… they are professionals. Plus you think they want to not play hard and get their guy injured?

"I have Marshall McLuhan right here..."

 

[chilidawg]

And I've said it's almost more dangerous when you throw in young QBs in garbage time. The game is out of reach and the level of effort on the OL is likely much lower.

"As I've said"? Is that supposed to make your argument more persuasive? Not effective.

The level of effort seems to me likely to be low on the D side as well. Get him a few snaps.

 

[Salva135]

"As I've said"? Is that supposed to make your argument more persuasive? Not effective.

The level of effort seems to me likely to be low on the D side as well. Get him a few snaps.

Alright, fine. The board has spoken and Jacoby remains a punching bag in a 35-7 loss next week. It's not what I would do.

 

[jercra]

So what if he gets hurt? Unless its career-ending, then he's holding the same clipboard on the sidelines and learning the way he would if he was just stuck to the bench. Let him take first team practices and let him play. If he gets hurt, he gets hurt. Wins and losses are irrelevant, so get him some experience and maybe develop some chemistry with the receiving corp. Give him a chance to make protection adjustments against real schemes. If it's really, really dire they can lean heavily on runs and quick screens and such.

 

[Myt1]

If the goal is to just avoid injuries, nobody should start in any NFL game.

That’s not the goal, though, right? The goal is to not put what you think is the future of your franchise behind an absolutely horrible offensive line, increasing the likelihood of getting him hurt or developing/exacerbating bad habits in response to constant pressure in a season in which you’re not going to accomplish anything anyway.

Like, your entire post is a really strange strawman in the face of the actual argument, which isn’t really not all that hard to understand.

 

[Myt1]

I mean, if the goal is just to play football and not care about injuries, nobody should wear a helmet in any NFL game.

See how stupid that sounds?

 

[johnmd20]

That’s not the goal, though, right? The goal is to not put what you think is the future of your franchise behind an absolutely horrible offensive line, increasing the likelihood of getting him hurt or developing/exacerbating bad habits in response to constant pressure in a season in which you’re not going to accomplish anything anyway.

Like, your entire post is a really strange strawman in the face of the actual argument, which isn’t really not all that hard to understand.

Maybe played in the game yesterday. So it seems like nobody knows what this mystical goal is, including the Patriots. Because Mayer was literally behind this awful line in an actual game less than 24 hours ago, which both increased his likelihood of getting hurt and developing bad habits.

 

[cornwalls@6]

I suspect events on the ground will settle this debate sooner than later. If Jacoby keeps taking the punishment he did last night, he’s not long for too many more games. As for the debate itself, I’m torn. Selfishly, as a fan, I’d like to see Maye in there. See what we have, and give this season some entertainment value beyond a 3-5 win slog with a barely replacement level veteran QB. But man, playing behind that line could absolutely do physical damage that he probably doesn’t need to risk just yet, and possibly set back his overall development. Again, I think he’ll be starting out of necessity fairly soon anyway. Fingers crossed when he does.

 

[Myt1]

Maybe played in the game yesterday. So it seems like nobody knows what this mystical goal is, including the Patriots. Because Mayer was literally behind this awful line in an actual game less than 24 hours ago, which both increased his likelihood of getting hurt and developing bad habits.

It’s almost like playing an aborted series against vanilla defense with the game out of reach is different than playing an entire game or season behind that line, huh?

And, no, I wouldn’t have played him then, either. I think the entire organization is a mess right now.

It’s just super weird how dishonest your posts are about what they’re responding to sometimes.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

So what if he gets hurt? Unless its career-ending, then he's holding the same clipboard on the sidelines and learning the way he would if he was just stuck to the bench. Let him take first team practices and let him play. If he gets hurt, he gets hurt. Wins and losses are irrelevant, so get him some experience and maybe develop some chemistry with the receiving corp. Give him a chance to make protection adjustments against real schemes. If it's really, really dire they can lean heavily on runs and quick screens and such.

There's also a risk of having him develop bad habits while playing behind a line that can't protect him. I think the OL needs to reach a basic level of comptence - even if it is still bad - before it makes sense to give him a lot of playing time.

 

[lexrageorge]

I see zero downside in playing Brissett for the next couple of games anyway. Maye is probably just not ready to be a full time starter, and there's no reason to put whom everyone (media, coaches, Wolf, the Krafts, knowledgeable fans) knew was going to be a developmental QB into a situation that clearly doesn't help him on that path.

 

[Myt1]

BUT FOOTBALL PLAYERS FOOTBALL FOOTBALLS!

 

[SMU_Sox]

Gentlemen, you can’t fight in here; this is the war room! I still think taking Maye was the right move. Unfortunately this is not an exceptional OT class either. I’ve done my 2023 reviews on the top 5-6 guys. Obviously they have to play this year too and I haven’t looked at 2024 games yet but the initial results are lackluster.

I think it will come down to Will Campbell, Kelvin Banks, or my personal favorite, Aireontae Ersory. All of these guys have a considerable flaw but the guy who has the best combination of size, length, strength, and athleticism is AE. His losses are almost all purely technique issues that could be corrected over time. No guarantee there though.


In terms of Maye’s performance though it is tremendously difficult to come in cold during a game like he did. I don’t want to pass judgment on his performance in those circumstances. I hope they let him start vs an easier opponent when the starting OL is healthy. Never thought Lowe starting at LT would move the needle for me but here we are!

 

[Humphrey]

To continue the tangent, it was remarkable how easy they made it look. Fitzmagic just torched us -- only a couple 3rd downs I think, never got to 4th down, went 9/12 on the drive. During the drive I just got angrier and angrier, especially given that the Dolphins were potentially playing themselves right out of the Tua sweepstakes.

I was just as furious but it was more directed at a bunch of things they did earlier in that game that left them in a position where a fluky drive could beat them. In terms of offensive line play, it was a harbinger of much worse things to come in the next 5 years.

 

[Salem's Lot]

u guys will have like 150 mil in cap room next offseason sign 3 OL A TE 1 WR get barrmore back sign a CB and who knows in 25

Guys might not want to take their money again this coming off-season like they didn’t want to take their money this past offseason.

 

[54thMA]

One of the main problems with the NFL right now is that teams are playing scared from the jump. Nobody is tested in training camp. Nobody plays in the preseason. Nobody is getting any reps until it is week 1 and then every WR has a soft tissue injury because they aren't ready for game speed and every QB fucking sucks because they aren't ready for game speed.

Thus, QB production is at a 20 year low.

So true, 3 preseason "games" in which hardly any starters play is a recipe for a shit product, which is what we are getting.

And season ticket holders pay full boat for preseason games; we used to give our tickets to friends who had kids so they could go to a game.

Imagine at one point there used to be 6 preseason games.

Gone are the days where the starters get a series in game 1, the first quarter in game 2, the first half and the first series of the 3rd quarter in game 3, then wrap everyone in bubble wrap for game 4.

Once they go to an 18 game schedule, will there even be preseason games? What's the point of playing 2?

 

[54thMA]

u guys will have like 150 mil in cap room next offseason sign 3 OL A TE 1 WR get barrmore back sign a CB and who knows in 25

They're saving that money for when they really need it.

Any free agent they go after, they will have to overpay, I can't see anyone wanting to come here unless you overpay.

By a lot.

 

[54thMA]

Guys might not want to take their money again this coming off-season like they didn’t want to take their money this past offseason.

This.

 

[Swedgin]

This.

It is important to take into consideration the position of the FA's the team is pursuing. Money always matters, but the question is how much. It's not hard to fathom a guy like Tyron Smith who 1) is approaching the end of his career 2) has already made north of120M and 3) is without a ring - making going to a contender a priority when weighing destinations.

When Tee Higgins hits the market (presumably) next year having made 30M at age 26, my guess is he takes the biggest bag. So yeah, the Pats would need to beat the market but not necessarily to the same degree they would to convince a guy like Smith to forgo a chance at winning in the short term.

 

[MikeM]

I'd have it as a coin flip after today's Carolina showing.

 

[DJnVa]

I'd have it as a coin flip after today's Carolina showing.

Yeah, but like 13 other teams looked like ass.

 

[chilidawg]

Carolina, Denver and the Giants all with good wins. Dallas elbowing its way into the conversation.

 

[Curt S Loew]

The worst team is clearly the biggest favorite in the survivor pool each week.

 

[DJnVa]

The worst team is clearly the biggest favorite in the survivor pool each week.

Well, based on early lines, that means NE is beating SF next week!

 

[Curt S Loew]

Well, based on early lines, that means NE is beating SF next week!

Book it!

 

[DJnVa]

The current Dolphins ain't that good.