Are the Pats the worst team in the NFL?

sezwho

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No one will ever be able to convince me they did all they could to find the best HC and OC possible in this past off-season. AVP not only doesn't have much experience as a play caller, he comes from a system that's very basic (to be generous) and puts a shit ton on either the QB or the RBs in order for it to work at a high level. This no motion, no eye candy offense that Mike McCarthy runs kinda sucks in 2024, and I really, really hope their idea of developing Drake Maye doesn't hinge on molding him into an AVP type QB. If the kid is more comfortable in shotgun, have him in shotgun. If he loves some specific North Carolina concepts, put those in. That's how QB development has worked in the modern NFL and I really hope that's the path they take with Maye.

I think Dak Prescott is one of the last remaining pocket QBs who wins pre-snap, challenges tight windows over the middle of the field, and has full control over the line of scrimmage, and even while being the perfect archetype for that offense, to me he's kneecapped by it. Nevermind a rookie. But we'll see.
I think they did.

Burying Mayo after week 5 is…definitely a thing. I think they genuinely believe he was the best option for them, I do too. This was always an upside hire, no?

And AVP may be trash, this post certainly isn’t to defend him, but they sure as hell tried to do better. Just better candidates weren’t biting. Would you have?

(edit - definitely not trying to convince you, just curious)
 

rodderick

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I think they did.

Burying Mayo after week 5 is…definitely a thing. I think they genuinely believe he was the best option for them, I do too. This was always an upside hire, no?

And AVP may be trash, this post certainly isn’t to defend him, but they sure as hell tried to do better. Just better candidates weren’t biting. Would you have?

(edit - definitely not trying to convince you, just curious)
I'm not burying Mayo, I'm just not sure how promising a guy the HC job before he had even proved himself as a position coach means you did your due diligence in finding the best successor possible. Maybe better OC candidates weren't biting because Mayo is a relative unknown with few relationships outside NE which made it harder to put a staff together? If you had hired from outside or hired an offensive minded HC that issue could have been mitigated as well.

Maybe Mayo is the guy, maybe Kraft's gut instinct was right all along and that's why he's an immensely successful billionaire and I'm an asshole on a message board, I just don't believe in that sort of process.
 

lexrageorge

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No one will ever be able to convince me they did all they could to find the best HC and OC possible in this past off-season. AVP not only doesn't have much experience as a play caller, he comes from a system that's very basic (to be generous) and puts a shit ton on either the QB or the RBs in order for it to work at a high level. This no motion, no eye candy offense that Mike McCarthy runs kinda sucks in 2024, and I really, really hope their idea of developing Drake Maye doesn't hinge on molding him into an AVP type QB. If the kid is more comfortable in shotgun, have him in shotgun. If he loves some specific North Carolina concepts, put those in. That's how QB development has worked in the modern NFL and I really hope that's the path they take with Maye.

I think Dak Prescott is one of the last remaining pocket QBs who wins pre-snap, challenges tight windows over the middle of the field, and has full control over the line of scrimmage, and even while being the perfect archetype for that offense, to me he's kneecapped by it. Nevermind a rookie. But we'll see.
Mayo was clearly Kraft's choice to succeed Belichick. Honestly, any head coach was going to have tough shoes to fill, and so I don't see that hire being a problem. We'll need a couple of seasons to know for sure.

The team cast a wide net in the offseason for offensive coordinator. But at least this season they will have a chance to start dropping back-channel hints level to some preferred NFL/NCAA targets before the season ends, which seems to be a big part of how coordinators get hired these days.
 

Justthetippett

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Mayo was clearly Kraft's choice to succeed Belichick. Honestly, any head coach was going to have tough shoes to fill, and so I don't see that hire being a problem. We'll need a couple of seasons to know for sure.

The team cast a wide net in the offseason for offensive coordinator. But at least this season they will have a chance to start dropping back-channel hints level to some preferred NFL/NCAA targets before the season ends, which seems to be a big part of how coordinators get hired these days.
From reports they went all in on Caley, which would have had some of the same insular issues as Mayo, although he does have more external experience. Only after he turned them down did they turn to AVP. They do need to cast a wide net and try to get into the cutting edge of offense as much as possible. I'm actually afraid we might see Josh McD walk back through that door if he doesn't joinn BB next year.
 

rodderick

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From reports they went all in on Caley, which would have had some of the same insular issues as Mayo, although he does have more external experience. Only after he turned them down did they turn to AVP. They do need to cast a wide net and try to get into the cutting edge of offense as much as possible. I'm actually afraid we might see Josh McD walk back through that door if he doesn't joinn BB next year.
Josh McDaniels coming back to develop Maye is much closer to my dream scenario than something I'd be afraid of.
 

Cellar-Door

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I think they did.

Burying Mayo after week 5 is…definitely a thing. I think they genuinely believe he was the best option for them, I do too. This was always an upside hire, no?

And AVP may be trash, this post certainly isn’t to defend him, but they sure as hell tried to do better. Just better candidates weren’t biting. Would you have?

(edit - definitely not trying to convince you, just curious)
So I think they spread a wide net on OC, and I actually think AVP made more sense than some of the other rumored candidates.
But they were likely hampered by the Mayo situation (and not having a GM), and Mayo they didn't spread a net at all, ever, and I think that is terrible process, which is concerning.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Josh McDaniels developed an entirely new offensive system for Cam Newton for the one year he was here. And despite Cam's physical issues, it worked pretty well.

If Josh came back to help develop Maye I'd be ecstatic.
 

SMU_Sox

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Real quick... re: UNC offense, it is not something they can pull from. It was extremely basic. Very minor note.
 

dynomite

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Josh McDaniels developed an entirely new offensive system for Cam Newton for the one year he was here. And despite Cam's physical issues, it worked pretty well.

If Josh came back to help develop Maye I'd be ecstatic.
Right. Would be relatively stunned if Josh was willing to come back to work for Mayo in his former role*, but the idea that this is something to fear instead of celebrate is strange.

* Josh sorta used to coach Mayo (I get Mayo was on D), Mayo's a decade younger than Josh, it would be his 3rd stint as Pats OC (right?), etc.
 

Justthetippett

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This would scare you? The guy did wonders with rookie Mac. Josh has proven he sucks at the HC thing. But I would take him in a cocaine heartbeat back as OC.
Should have elaborated. Mostly I'd be weary of a power struggle between him and Mayo, and that his offense has been passed by to some extent. His LV teams really struggled at the end of his tenure to score points. He's better than AVP, but I also think they could go in a better direction with fresh thinking/new talent.
 

Jimbodandy

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The fresh thinking/new talent debate happened last offseason when they brought back BoB. He's not JMcD even, but he's a competent offensive thinker. Some of us were so glad to have at least "someone who has done it before" after the mess of neophytes hosing the offense, but others were hoping for the next great innovator. I get that thinking, and certainly last year's offense was a car crash of Ponch & Jon proportions so hard to argue there. But I'm still in the camp of "not every experienced coordinator is by definition some bum retread". A new, great thinker might be what's needed but isn't necessarily what's needed.
 

astrozombie

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I don't love AVP, but this all goes back to talent on some level. I have no idea what AVP can (not) implement with what he has been given and how much of the problem is scheme v execution; I will leave it to better football minds to determine that. McDaniels was a phenomenal OC, but I am pretty sure he couldn't take 11 posters on this thread and make a capable NFL unit out of us. At some point, you need guys who can do the damn thing and the Pats are just lacking there.
That being said, would I have liked to see the Pats bring in some young college coach eager to prove themselves and working with QBs? Probably. But then that person would probably have gotten the same "they've never done it at this level, the whole coaching staff is too green" treatment. And that's if they even wanted to walk into the Pats situation which looked then and currently is, awful. The Pats had to take what they could get.
 

dynomite

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The fresh thinking/new talent debate happened last offseason when they brought back BoB. He's not JMcD even, but he's a competent offensive thinker. Some of us were so glad to have at least "someone who has done it before" after the mess of neophytes hosing the offense, but others were hoping for the next great innovator. I get that thinking, and certainly last year's offense was a car crash of Ponch & Jon proportions so hard to argue there. But I'm still in the camp of "not every experienced coordinator is by definition some bum retread". A new, great thinker might be what's needed but isn't necessarily what's needed.
Right, given how much failure there has been on the offensive side of the ball since Brady left, it's hard to tease apart who's responsible for what.

By offensive yards/game:
2024: 31st
2023: 30th
2022: 26th
2021: 15th
2020: 27th

Still, from the quick review of Lazar's breakdowns -- the best Xs and Os guy covering the team that I'm aware of -- I'm not impressed with AVP thus far, but it's been a mixed bag. When you see him break down the actual plays it's everything we're all saying: on one play Leverett and Onwenu seem to be on different pages about where the protection is supposed to be, on another Brissett is forced to throw a ball a split second too soon, on some the WRs can't get open, on others Brissett's throw is off, etc.

There's a detailed breakdown of the offensive game film here: https://www.patriots.com/news/after-further-review-building-around-christian-gonzalez-and-breaking-down-the-pats-offense-from-sunday-s-loss-to-dolphins

His writeup isn't as detailed on plays and play calling, but I did note this:

Patriots offensive coordinator Alex Van Pelt's situational play-calling at the end of both halves is one area that has been critiqued following Sunday's game. After getting the ball down to the Miami 12-yard line with 1:13 remaining in a five-point game, Van Pelt called four consecutive pass plays, and all four were incomplete. Now, the Pats were a "toe-heel" away from one of those drop-backs being a game-winning touchdown. However, on a day when they successfully ran the ball, it was notable that Van Pelt opted to pass with all three timeouts in his back pocket. ...
 
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Justthetippett

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The fresh thinking/new talent debate happened last offseason when they brought back BoB. He's not JMcD even, but he's a competent offensive thinker. Some of us were so glad to have at least "someone who has done it before" after the mess of neophytes hosing the offense, but others were hoping for the next great innovator. I get that thinking, and certainly last year's offense was a car crash of Ponch & Jon proportions so hard to argue there. But I'm still in the camp of "not every experienced coordinator is by definition some bum retread". A new, great thinker might be what's needed but isn't necessarily what's needed.
I'll buy this. If they continue to evolve and innovate a coordinator can stay relevant and very effective for decades. Plenty of examples of that, including Turner, LeBeau, Spags, Moore, etc. Josh is still young in coach years. If there's an open, competitive, real search, that could mitigate some of the concerns of just going back to the old guard.
 

Cellar-Door

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Honestly I haven't seen anything to make me think they should move on from AVP, the people I trust mostly think he's doing pretty decently, and he had a lot of fans in CLE, he's not going to be fancy, but most of the problems so far this year seem more tied to the O-line getting beat immediately. You can't run PA with a quick pressure rate as high as we have, and Brissett knows the system but he's limited. Guys are getting decently open, there have been some clever TE based designs (we have to go heavy to help the O-line). Playcalling has been... okay? Too aggressive at end of half situations maybe, but some of that is a HC decision too so hard to parse.

I will be curious if we see more designed boot with Maye's mobility.
 

Jinhocho

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Honestly I haven't seen anything to make me think they should move on from AVP, the people I trust mostly think he's doing pretty decently, and he had a lot of fans in CLE, he's not going to be fancy, but most of the problems so far this year seem more tied to the O-line getting beat immediately. You can't run PA with a quick pressure rate as high as we have, and Brissett knows the system but he's limited. Guys are getting decently open, there have been some clever TE based designs (we have to go heavy to help the O-line). Playcalling has been... okay? Too aggressive at end of half situations maybe, but some of that is a HC decision too so hard to parse.

I will be curious if we see more designed boot with Maye's mobility.
From someone who knows nothing and criticized the hire, I dont know how anyone can think he needs to be fired. Even if you didnt want him hired, it is hard to assess much on a handful of games except that team has a terrible offensive line, a young and not great at this time receiver core, and a journeyman backup who started all the games to date and now is being replaced by someone making their first start of their career. Its an incomplete or TBD of epic proportions.
 

Eddie Jurak

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AVP's most important job is the development of Drake Maye, which we will have no real idea about until we see him tomorrow.
 

Arroyoyo

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What’s a bummer is I’d hoped they could zero in on elite LT and WR talent by trading the (likely) top pick, but now that the defense appears to have regressed, the holes on the roster have only multiplied, not lessened. This could be ugly for a long time no matter how good Maye is.
 

jsinger121

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What’s a bummer is I’d hoped they could zero in on elite LT and WR talent by trading the (likely) top pick, but now that the defense appears to have regressed, the holes on the roster have only multiplied, not lessened. This could be ugly for a long time no matter how good Maye is.
Selling the first overall pick will help fill numerous holes. They also don’t have an elite DT in Barmore right now either.
 

amfox1

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I think it will be a season-long race to the bottom among NE, CAR, CLE and JAX, with the loser of next Sunday's game in London having the inside track.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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They are pretty bad but they have something to hope on. The gamethread tone strongly suggests folks are surprised by their record and performance. This team isn't good and they aren't leaving much on the table in terms of wins so it unclear what informs the expectations but I guess some people legitimately thought they would be .500 or better or at least competitive. They are not.
 

Arroyoyo

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They are pretty bad but they have something to hope on. The gamethread tone strongly suggests folks are surprised by their record and performance. This team isn't good and they aren't leaving much on the table in terms of wins so it unclear what informs the expectations but I guess some people legitimately thought they would be .500 or better or at least competitive. They are not.
I think, for me, it’s more regression in areas of expected strength. We knew the offense sucked. But the defense getting shredded?

I didn’t think the defense was elite. A few times last year I got a bit of a paper tiger vibe. But I thought they were top-10ish. What’s shocking is they look as disjointed as the offense.

The team just looks listless. Like what is the identity of the team? The direction? What exactly are they trying to accomplish? It looks like a hodgepodge of directionless meandering out there - like there’s no real leader on the field or on the sideline.

Thats what’s discouraging. I think the thought was 4-5 wins with the trajectory being up. But it’s looking more like 1-3 wins with the trajectory in 2025 remaining flat.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I think, for me, it’s more regression in areas of expected strength. We knew the offense sucked. But the defense getting shredded?

I didn’t think the defense was elite. A few times last year I got a bit of a paper tiger vibe. But I thought they were top-10ish. What’s shocking is they look as disjointed as the offense.

The team just looks listless. Like what is the identity of the team? The direction? What exactly are they trying to accomplish? It looks like a hodgepodge of directionless meandering out there - like there’s no real leader on the field or on the sideline.

Thats what’s discouraging. I think the thought was 4-5 wins with the trajectory being up. But it’s looking more like 1-3 wins with the trajectory in 2025 remaining flat.
I agree that aside from Maye there isn't a lot of hope but I just don't know how this outcome is surprising. They rebooted everything over the off-season and few teams bounce right back from that sort of reset. They have a rookie HC, a bunch of new organizational people and a thin roster. Four wins feels like their ceiling and that feels realistic if they get any improvement from the skill players.
 

NickEsasky

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I agree that aside from Maye there isn't a lot of hope but I just don't know how this outcome is surprising. They rebooted everything over the off-season and few teams bounce right back from that sort of reset. They have a rookie HC, a bunch of new organizational people and a thin roster. Four wins feels like their ceiling and that feels realistic if they get any improvement from the skill players.
Can you reboot when you most of your offseason signings were your own free agents?
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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I agree that aside from Maye there isn't a lot of hope but I just don't know how this outcome is surprising. They rebooted everything over the off-season and few teams bounce right back from that sort of reset. They have a rookie HC, a bunch of new organizational people and a thin roster. Four wins feels like their ceiling and that feels realistic if they get any improvement from the skill players.
As mentioned in the broadcast, the Texans went 3-13-1 the year before they drafted Stroud. Quick turnarounds are always possible. The Pats appear to have missed their first chance to improve this year.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Can you reboot when you most of your offseason signings were your own free agents?
I really don't want to get dragged into the weeds on this because we are just being peak negative here. Use whatever term you want for an organization turning over leadership. I don't even care to discuss single games because they are meaningless in the context of this team's development.

The point is they are pretty bad and it feels like they are right on realistic expectations. Some folks thought it would be a lot better than this - there is no denying that dynamic here.
 

NickEsasky

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I really don't want to get dragged into the weeds on this because we are just being peak negative here. Use whatever term you want for an organization turning over leadership. I don't even care to discuss single games because they are meaningless in the context of this team's development.

The point is they are pretty bad and it feels like they are right on realistic expectations. Some folks thought it would be a lot better than this - there is no denying that dynamic here.
We agree they are not good and expectations should have been low. Doesn’t mean we can’t discuss the team on a massage board though. You do this a lot in a lot of forums here. You often wonder why people discuss things on a message board. It’s fucking weird, man.
 

Ralphwiggum

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I really don't want to get dragged into the weeds on this because we are just being peak negative here. Use whatever term you want for an organization turning over leadership. I don't even care to discuss single games because they are meaningless in the context of this team's development.

The point is they are pretty bad and it feels like they are right on realistic expectations. Some folks thought it would be a lot better than this - there is no denying that dynamic here.
I think it was reasonable for fans to want to see some improvement from last year. They sucked and had the 3rd overall pick. I know I was hopeful for a team that could play competitive games and improve over the course of the season. The team that played against the Bengals and most of the Seahawks game looked like that. Since then they have looked like a team that is going to have a Top 3 pick again. They also look poorly coached and disorganized.

To me it isn’t expectations in terms of wins and losses, it is expectations about having them look like a competitive team, development of some of the young guys, and hope for teh future. Outside of Maye (maybe), there doesn’t appear to be a whole lot to be hopeful about right now.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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We agree they are not good and expectations should have been low. Doesn’t mean we can’t discuss the team on a massage board though. You do this a lot in a lot of forums here. You often wonder why people discuss things on a message board. It’s fucking weird, man.
I wasn't saying anything about discussions. I am just responding to the original thread question. Maybe they need to fire everyone and fold the team - but six games in feels a bit quick to me.

People can post whatever they want here but some folks don't like the consequences. Disagreement may mean demonization (thus "weird") but its kind of normal.

This team may not be the worst in the league but its really hard to argue underperformance with this roster.
 

Eddie Jurak

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As mentioned in the broadcast, the Texans went 3-13-1 the year before they drafted Stroud. Quick turnarounds are always possible. The Pats appear to have missed their first chance to improve this year.
The 3-13-1 was the third consecutive year in which the Texans won 4 or fewer games. Not a comparable situation to the Pats.
 

NickEsasky

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I wasn't saying anything about discussions. I am just responding to the original thread question. Maybe they need to fire everyone and fold the team - but six games in feels a bit quick to me.

People can post whatever they want here but some folks don't like the consequences. Disagreement may mean demonization (thus "weird") but its kind of normal.

This team may not be the worst in the league but its really hard to argue underperformance with this roster.
Apologies if weird came across as aggressive or attacking. Not my intent. Your posts do seem to question why people are discussing things which seem antithetical to a message board. Just something I’ve noticed and brought it up here, perhaps wrongly.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Nope a GM who did not work with BB is needed.
The constant drumbeat we've heard over the last few years is that BB was overruling or otherwise making all personnel decisions over Wolf and others in the front office. Now Wolf has the team all to himself and the results are worse, if anything.

Working with BB has nothing to do with it. Wolf may just be awful at his job.
 

Cellar-Door

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The constant drumbeat we've heard over the last few years is that BB was overruling or otherwise making all personnel decisions over Wolf and others in the front office. Now Wolf has the team all to himself and the results are worse, if anything.

Working with BB has nothing to do with it. Wolf may just be awful at his job.
It’s way too early to judge Wolf, but also it's welrd people are tying him to BB as if they are philosophical partners .. He comes from a different tree and was brought in recently specifically to be the outside voice.
 

ShaneTrot

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I don’t want to flush Polk down the toilet but he was horrible today. And Baker not being able to see the field is discouraging. Maye seems to be the real deal and they need to get something out of these guys.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I think it was reasonable for fans to want to see some improvement from last year. They sucked and had the 3rd overall pick. I know I was hopeful for a team that could play competitive games and improve over the course of the season. The team that played against the Bengals and most of the Seahawks game looked like that. Since then they have looked like a team that is going to have a Top 3 pick again. They also look poorly coached and disorganized.

To me it isn’t expectations in terms of wins and losses, it is expectations about having them look like a competitive team, development of some of the young guys, and hope for teh future. Outside of Maye (maybe), there doesn’t appear to be a whole lot to be hopeful about right now.
This is a fair response, thank you.

For me today is when you can start the clock on not only Maye but also Mayo et al. If we aren't seeing progress, if not results, over the next few weeks that's when I will likely wonder if they have the right people in the building. Its just hard to say that now when you look at the OL and skill positions where they are operating at a pretty significant deficit to many opponents. But now they presumably have all their highest ceiling players playing its time to see what they are.

That said you are right that win totals aren't the only way to judge the team.
 

Jungleland

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Boutte seems to have passed Polk, Baker, Thornton on the depth chart.
Good blocker and showed some wheels today on the TD. Really encouraging given his pre-injury pedigree - if he keeps his head on straight he's exactly the kind of player that warrants giving a bit of a longer development leash, especially given he's essentially 1 game in to seeing a competent passing attack around him.
 
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It’s way too early to judge Wolf, but also it's welrd people are tying him to BB as if they are philosophical partners .. He comes from a different tree and was brought in recently specifically to be the outside voice.
He’s been with the team since 2020 and was director of scouting in 2022-23.

Weird to present him as some sort of outside voice.

If BB’s roster building was what got him fired, it’s very strange that the two guys (Groh and Wolf) most recently in powerful positions stayed on. Neither of them can point to being part of the “good old days” when the roster was perpetually loaded (although I suppose Groh’s experience as area scout during the Brady era counts for something)