I don’t known how to separate players and coaching. They sucked last year too with Belichick.
Are the Pats the worst team in the NFL?
- Thread starter ShaneTrot
- Start date
I feel like we've seen more miscommunication/unprepared type of stuff this year than usual, I also think the decision making on timeouts, 4th downs, challenges has been worse. Those are coaching areas to me (I don't always think penalties are since often that's just bad players being bad).
Would have been interesting to see BB with Brissett or another decent vet QB. I feel like he could have gotten a bit more out of the team. Mac's mistakes last year just killed them. But either way they are not a real competitive team.
I still hope he gets it together and grows, but I was kinda nervous about the Mayo pick when I heard people pump him up with the stuff about him being “the smartest guy in the room.” Like, somehow over the last 20+ years everyone forgot that “smartest guy in the room” energy should be a warning sign, of an ironic cautionary tale. Like, maybe that really is the best guy for the job, but if anything the burden of proof should be higher because we know that some people give off “smartest guy in the room” vibes but that is, in fact, their talent: Feeling that way to other people.
Now, imagine back in the day… BB and Ernie. You’d have to sorta get to know them a bit to realize what kinds of football minds you had there.
Of course, the Krafts did know Mayo, so what the hell?
But I don’t think that I actually know how to identify who will make a good head coach. Of course, it seems like almost nobody else does either. What a weird industry.
Jaguars are 0-4, but I agree the schedule looks soft on paper ... then again, the Patriots offensive line looks like paper on the field
This feels like the best way to look at things. I would add that just as we have to give rookie players a bit of time to adjust, we probably need to give Mayo a bit more rope before we declare "not the guy". That said, some of (not all) of the criticisms of team mistakes seem valid given that we have seen well coached teams minimize stuff like that before.
The roster is undeniably thin and their lack of a true QB as well as OL talent makes any sort of evaluation of the offensive skill players more difficult.
The good news is that, like it or not, we will get to see more of this team play and maybe they can make a few adjustments to keep opponents closer while developing some of their young talent.
He's 4 games in, way too early to be drawing any conclusions. The "clueless Joe" era needs remembered.
View: https://twitter.com/JuMosq/status/1840730481710764356
We're bad and our defense is not helping. We are a bottom 3 team in the NFL. We might not be 32 of 32 but same tier...
We're bad and our defense is not helping. We are a bottom 3 team in the NFL. We might not be 32 of 32 but same tier...
A true case study for the "Skill positions don't matter if your line and QB suck" thesis
Just to be clear, I am not saying he cannot turn into a decent/good/very good coach. It just strikes me that there is nothing in his record to suggest should be a good coach so soon in his coaching career, given his lack of experience dealing with the media, his lack of experience calling plays, his lack of experience calling the game, and his lack of experience with overall team strategy/building etc. It might sound like damming with faint praise, but expecting the guy to be a genius or savant seems silly (sorry Kraft). He is going to need to take some lumps this year and grow quick though. I think he has been put in a not great position, but maybe he is up to it and maybe not.
They didn't pull him out of the stands. By all accounts he's worked very closely with Bill the last few years. And he was a coach on the field when he played. If he fails, I don't think lack of experience will be the main factor. It will be because he makes poor decisions and they lose games, some of which are very close. Or the talent isn't there. The latter seems the most likely.
Miami is pretty awful this year. Their only win is against Jacksonville, also bad, by one FG. They have scored 45 points in 4 games, and allowed 103. Their margins have been +3, -21, -21, -19.
The Patriots only win is against Cincinnati, also bad. They only have 52 points, which is bad, while allowing 97, which is also bad. Their margins have been +6, -3, -21, -17. None of this is good, but it is a bit better than Miami.
Miami beat Jacksonville (1-3) and lost to Buffalo (3-1), Seattle (3-0), Tennessee (1-3). New England beat Cincinnati (1-3) and lost to Seattle (3-0), NYJ (2-2), and the Niners (2-2). A wash? Buffalo is the best team either faced.
As bad as the Pats have been, this game is at worst a coin flip for them.
The Patriots only win is against Cincinnati, also bad. They only have 52 points, which is bad, while allowing 97, which is also bad. Their margins have been +6, -3, -21, -17. None of this is good, but it is a bit better than Miami.
Miami beat Jacksonville (1-3) and lost to Buffalo (3-1), Seattle (3-0), Tennessee (1-3). New England beat Cincinnati (1-3) and lost to Seattle (3-0), NYJ (2-2), and the Niners (2-2). A wash? Buffalo is the best team either faced.
As bad as the Pats have been, this game is at worst a coin flip for them.
Maybe this is a thought better suited for the long-lost "Celebrating What Is/Was" thread, but for most of the 20-year dynastic run, the Patriots had not only the GOAT player/QB and the GOAT Head Coach, but also arguably the GOAT OLine coach.
I don't think it is much of a coincidence that the Pats dynasty showed its first cracks when Dante left. And the OLine has gone from outstanding (2018) to trash-can fire in less than 5 years. There are times I think that I might prefer Scar walking through that door to the return of BB or TB.
ESPN now has the Pats dead last in their power ranking:
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/41536335/nfl-power-rankings-week-5-poll-2024-biggest-defense-issue
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/41536335/nfl-power-rankings-week-5-poll-2024-biggest-defense-issue
No one should be surprised by this. The Titans were considered awful but they destroyed Miami. Seattle was supposed to be good so a 3 point loss to them was "good" but they got destroyed last night by Detroit.
The Pats have done nothing positive this year in any phase of the game save kicking, so they should be last. They can't score, they allow a lot of points, they're much worse than last year, and they can't do anything right so far.
The rankings will continue until performance improves.
Actual lists like ESPN power rankings kind of boggle my mind because unless you are historically, comically tragic (like this year's white sox) it's impossible to pinpoint these things. They are 1.5 favorites against the fins, and from what ive read (not a gambler) Vegas now gives you 1.5 for home as opposed to 3. That all said, they are quite obviously in the convo for worst team in the league. Trying to determine whether they are 30th worst or 32nd worst is really besides the point I think. The point being, they are flat out are terrible.
Yeah, despite my post above I really don't think this ranking is anything of a big deal. It's an arbitrary list. No one with a functioning brain thinks the Pats are a good team, we certainly don't need a list to tell us that.
I don't think they are beating Miami no matter Miami's QB issues, but I'm not sure that even matters with these rankings.
Exactly. I mean...if they beat Miami 12-6 and for a week jump to 31st (or hell even 30th) Im not going to start waxing poetic about them. To really determine this instead of a pro bowl they should have a toilet bowl - the worst team from each conference play a real game, maybe for a charity or something.
I would not be shocked if NE manages to pick off MIA when they are without a quarterback, and JAX over the next few weeks. I would also not be surprised if they lose both. But barring a massive improvement in OL play, or possibly Maye coming in and proving to be a miracle worker, I'm not sure a few wins against other bottom feeders would prove anything besides reshuffling the 2025 draft order
This team is bad and they are riddled with injuries at their weakest position, OL. What I want to see from the coaching staff is improvement. Can they make the team a tough out? Will they be playing their best football in December? My biggest beef with BB was since 2018, his teams were 10-19 in December through January. None of those teams had a winning record after December 1st. That was his hallmark during the dynasty, his teams were great down the stretch. He figured out what they needed to do to be successful, also doesn't hurt to have the GOAT.
Mayo is a pretty smart guy. He has been dealt a tough hand. He has to fix this defense, it should be better. If fucking Joshua Uche is going to lose contain, make him do his job or find someone who will at least do what he's told. If Stevenson is going to be turning over the ball, fix him or sit him. There is massive room for improvement here or they can just keep digging.
Mayo is a pretty smart guy. He has been dealt a tough hand. He has to fix this defense, it should be better. If fucking Joshua Uche is going to lose contain, make him do his job or find someone who will at least do what he's told. If Stevenson is going to be turning over the ball, fix him or sit him. There is massive room for improvement here or they can just keep digging.
One was selected by the best basketball mind of his generation. The other was selected by an 80-something year old man based on a hunch and a hotel lobby.
Uche is who he is. He’s a solid #2 pass rusher who sucks against the run and sucks as the primary pass rusher.
Useful piece but a very limited situational guy who is useless in their current situation given Judson’s departure
The Patriots stink, dead last in the league in my opinion, 1990/1992 level stink.
I thought after they had a decent 2021 draft and got Jones and signed all those free agents, finished 10-7 and made the playoffs that they were on the right track.
Then Josh left, Jones cratered and the free agents they signed were not very good as it turned out.
I thought they had bottomed out last year; nope, plenty of more room to keep dropping.
What a shitshow, this is going to take several years/several drafts where they get some blue chip talent, we'll see if this front office has the chops to evaluate and draft well, not to mention sign some key free agents with all the cap room they keep holding on to like grim death, a lot of good that's doing them.
Or else the season ticket base will erode just like it did from about 1988 to 1990 when they went backwards, then cratered, I was front and center to it; the last game of the year in 1990 was vs the eventual Super Bowl champion Giants, it was probably 65/35 Giants fans, which is what Kraft will be looking at if they don't turn things around ASAP.
I thought after they had a decent 2021 draft and got Jones and signed all those free agents, finished 10-7 and made the playoffs that they were on the right track.
Then Josh left, Jones cratered and the free agents they signed were not very good as it turned out.
I thought they had bottomed out last year; nope, plenty of more room to keep dropping.
What a shitshow, this is going to take several years/several drafts where they get some blue chip talent, we'll see if this front office has the chops to evaluate and draft well, not to mention sign some key free agents with all the cap room they keep holding on to like grim death, a lot of good that's doing them.
Or else the season ticket base will erode just like it did from about 1988 to 1990 when they went backwards, then cratered, I was front and center to it; the last game of the year in 1990 was vs the eventual Super Bowl champion Giants, it was probably 65/35 Giants fans, which is what Kraft will be looking at if they don't turn things around ASAP.
The Pats’ schedule doesn’t look as bad as it did before the season. This week against Miami may be the only game where the Pats are favored, but their Week 16 trip to Buffalo is the only game where they’re projected to be more than a 7.5-point underdog. They’ll win 3-4 more games along the way, even if they don’t materially improve.
Mayo/Covington have been clear from the jump that they viewed the defense as too passive, not attacking enough (despite the wild success of that strategy for the last 5 years), and Uche was part of that, they got him to come back at a very good price by promising a bigger role, more rushes, etc.
Of course he took that to mean "just rush" and as with basically everyone in our front line he isn't playing run contain at all.
yep, it's what I talked about very early when people started pointing out wins/losses, teams are going to be way worse, some teams are going to be on backup QBs.
of course as is also true... the Patriots are injured like crazy too.
Yeah I don’t get it either other than lack of options. Whatever plan Wolf had seemed to be just keeping everything (except Judon) together. Their lateral moves or attempted small upgrades (swapping out Guy, Phillips, Wilson for Watts, Hawkins, Takitaki) hasn’t worked out and I don’t really understand extending Godchaux and paying both Peppers/Dugger.
gave him a one year deal presumably hoping he’d break out and they could re-sign him to replace Judon moving forward.
Uche was a really good signing to me. He had better offers and signed at a real discount.
The problem with Uche isn't that he's on the roster, it's that he's not being used in the limited role he's good at.
I think Uche mostly has been in his limited role-he averaged 22 snaps the first three weeks- but he had to play more snaps last week (40) because Jennings was out.
For 1 year at $3 million, Uche doesn’t need to be much more than a warm body to earn his money.
If you want to nitpick the offseason moves, I’d look at Rham and Dugger, both of whom are likely to trigger dead-cap hits in 2026 or 2027, when the Pats will hopefully be ready to contend again. But even those aren’t material enough for me to question whether the front office has a plan.
Shitty week to miss out on Jennings too given we needed his run defense badly! Uche holding the edge is something he hasn’t done in any part of his career. He’s a useful player when you are playing from ahead.
Yes he was a limited player who wo
Yeah but why bring him back if you arent going to bring Judon. He pairs well with another good rusher and he has never been great from what i could tell at anything but rushing.
I could see keeping Dugger since they had so much cap room, but the Rham one was a headscratcher for me.
Judon isn't who helps him be good, it's Jennings who is an excellent run defender. But more generally, you can ALWAYS use more situation passrush on the cheap, you just have to use it correctly.
No he had his best times with Judon there who would eat up much of the attention.
I can see the Jennings part but that just means Jennings is in there for the run and some pass and Uche just to rush the pass. The simple fact is that Uche is not an every down linebacker and Uche while good at times rushing the passer has only had one season where he has more than 3 sacks in his career (1, 3, 11.5, 3 and 1 this year). I know the advanced metrics speak better of him than I am here, but he is a pass rush guy who except for one season next to Judon failed to get sacks. I wouldnt have resigned him even for cheap money.
I think that Peppers has been fantastic too, but that's only the eyeball test. He was a wrecking ball against SF, but there were discipline problems up the wazoo with the front four and communication problems in the secondary.
David Andrews needs shoulder surgery and is done for the year.
If they win another game this year I'd be shocked. This is not only the worst team in the league, it's the worst since the Rod Rust days.
If they win another game this year I'd be shocked. This is not only the worst team in the league, it's the worst since the Rod Rust days.
Might be an improvement.
There's always the Chip Kelly triple stack: https://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2013/9/10/4715606/chip-kellys-insane-and-predictable-formation-eagles-redskins-lesean-mccoy-chip-kelly
Week 4 is enough of a sample size to look at some stats. Total DVOA chimes in with the Pats being 29th out of 32. The very good special teams number is boosting the overall ranking.
Honestly I thought they would be lower ranked but there are some bad teams out there.
Honestly I thought they would be lower ranked but there are some bad teams out there.