Anthony Davis: No Loyalty

PedroKsBambino

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While I do believe most trade inquiries are sincere, and I don't see Ainge getting involved solely to drive the price up for another team, I do believe there was an article posted somewhere on these boards about all the misdirection that goes on behind the scenes. GM's aren't some chummy club where it's strictly "scratch my back and I'll scratch yours". They are competitive folks by nature that are always trying to gain an edge. I agree Ainge isn't going to simply make phony offers for Davis just to jack the price up. However, Ainge isn't going to simply sit back and let the Lakers get Davis for Ball and a 2nd round pick (exaggeration alert) either without at least making an offer of his own.

If the end result is that the Lakers end up paying more for Davis than they had originally wanted, and Griffin had to cancel a dinner engagement, I don't think Ainge is going to lose any sleep over Pelinka's and Griffin's feelings.
I think that article described the dynamic I mentioned, which is that they do various things to get an edge on players they want, not just to (in the abstract) raise the costs of others when they aren't really interested in the specific player/trade. That is my point---they have to want the player to invest much energy and that's the rational way to allocate time and energy.

No one has suggested they are chummy or scratch each other's back. No one is suggesting anyone is worried about someone else's dinner reservation---and if you think anyone did you need to do some serious re-reading of this thread.

I think teams do what is in their best interests, and the reality is that it typically is not a good use of time (or risk to a set of working relationships) to engage in phony trade talk just to try and possibly drive up the cost for someone else. If you can find an example where a team did that without true interest in the player, let me know---but I think you're going to fail at that save the rare example like the Celtics bidding up Knicks players to consume their cap space so that Celts could keep their own player who Knicks wanted---the second scenario I alluded to previously.
 
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InstaFace

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Right - it's amazing to me how quickly people seem to have forgotten the Paul George saga, which was almost literally the exact same scenario, down to PG's camp saying the exact same things about being a rental:
(...)
Except then, of course, he didn't go to the Lakers because he realized he liked playing with Westbrook in OKC got high as a kite at a party in a barn and said and did some crazy things. AD's situation is a bit different due to the Klutch wrinkle but the point is we've been here before and what a player says a year before free agency should be taken with a massive grain of salt no matter how emphatic those statements are.
The stories about the after-season party the Thunder had that ended with George deciding to re-sign sounded like something out of Can't Hardly Wait or Almost Famous. Like, they had a retreat in the woods and cult-ish things were done and said, god knows what was smoked, and the only thing we're sure about was that his signature was on the contract.

Maybe Danny just needs to do a Phil Jackson-style vision quest with Davis once he's in the fold...
 

Jimbodandy

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The stories about the after-season party the Thunder had that ended with George deciding to re-sign sounded like something out of Can't Hardly Wait or Almost Famous. Like, they had a retreat in the woods and cult-ish things were done and said, god knows what was smoked, and the only thing we're sure about was that his signature was on the contract.

Maybe Danny just needs to do a Phil Jackson-style vision quest with Davis once he's in the fold...
Great idea. Danny might have to delegate the shaman duties though. A no drinking, no smoking, no drugs, no caffeine vision quest might not convince AD to get his parking validated.
 

DJnVa

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Celtics odds to win next year's title just went up from 16-1 to 10-1. Do they know something we don't about AD?
Matching that with the Lakers going from 8-1 to 5-1......what could be have done that makes our odds that much better, but still not as good as the Lakers yesterday?

Story:

https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/celtics/celtics-2020-nba-title-odds-improve-anthony-davis-trade-rumors-persist
Either way, it's likely just Vegas realizing that one of the teams is getting him and taking advantage of that.
 
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DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Celtics odds to win next year's title just went up from 16-1 to 10-1. Do they know something we don't about AD?
Caesar’s Sportsbook yesterday. And Lakers went from 8-1 to 5-1.
I am not a betting man but I suspect that this is more a function of an NBA that won't have Kevin Durant playing much, if at all, for anyone in the West or East in '19-20.
 

RedOctober3829

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nattysez

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From Mark Stein:
"The Lakers, thus far, are sticking to their no-Kuzma trade posture ... but let’s see if they maintain it with the draft only a week away now. L.A. knows it likely needs to land Anthony Davis before June 30 to become a factor in chasing a prime free agent to join a LeBron/AD duo"

https://twitter.com/TheSteinLine/status/1139260755608424448
Also, that's like a 16 year old kid.
Supposedly one who's well-sourced, but it's a fair point.
 

DJnVa

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From Mark Stein:
"The Lakers, thus far, are sticking to their no-Kuzma trade posture ... but let’s see if they maintain it with the draft only a week away now. L.A. knows it likely needs to land Anthony Davis before June 30 to become a factor in chasing a prime free agent to join a LeBron/AD duo"

https://twitter.com/TheSteinLine/status/1139260755608424448


Supposedly one who's well-sourced, but it's a fair point.

How dumb are the Lakers if they are really holding this up over Kuzma? If they include him and get AD, then they presumably would get to add a 3rd star that wants to come play with Lebron and AD. And they're saying no for now because of Kuzma? Bullshit.
 

Auger34

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How dumb are the Lakers if they are really holding this up over Kuzma? If they include him and get AD, then they presumably would get to add a 3rd star that wants to come play with Lebron and AD. And they're saying no for now because of Kuzma? Bullshit.
Absolutely. I respect Stein and he’s normally a very good reporter but these tweets make 0 fucking sense.

Everything I’ve heard about Kuzma from Zach Lowe, Howard Beck, and other reporters of that ilk is that he’s regarded as a pretty good player and asset.

There’s no way in hell that he is now somehow an untouchable piece in an Anthony Davis trade. That doesn’t follow any of the previous reporting about these teams talking.

At the trade deadline the Lakers basically offered the Pelicans the entire cupboard and they declined. Yes, Dell Demps was running the show then but with trades like this, ownership is heavily involved.
Does it pass the smell test that ownership would not only green light a trade to the Lakers but green light a trade where players are now held out of the trade that were previously in it?
 

Minneapolis Millers

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Jrue Holiday, Zion, Ingram, Ball, Kuzma and the #4 pick. Is that a good team? Do we know how healthy Ingram is? How does Ball fit on that team? Is there an obvious guy at #4 who will help the rebuild?

I can understand why NO might want LA to do some work with a third team. I can also see why they'd want to pit LA against BOS. They can get a better deal from the Celtics if they can get Ainge to blink.
 

lovegtm

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Jrue Holiday, Zion, Ingram, Ball, Kuzma and the #4 pick. Is that a good team? Do we know how healthy Ingram is? How does Ball fit on that team? Is there an obvious guy at #4 who will help the rebuild?

I can understand why NO might want LA to do some work with a third team. I can also see why they'd want to pit LA against BOS. They can get a better deal from the Celtics if they can get Ainge to blink.
It's a lot harder to get Ainge to blink if Kyrie is actually out the door. The Celtics may well trade for AD, but they'd be driving a much harder bargain and be much more willing to walk.
Windhorst on The Jump thinks AD is going to the Celtics He thinks that if Griffin wanted to do a deal with LA he’d have done so already.

https://twitter.com/fletcherwdsu/status/1139262510408851457?s=21
Pretty interesting coming from the Mouth of Sauron. Also would indicate that
a) 3rd parties really aren't interested in Kuzma/Ball/Ingram
b) Griffin really isn't high on Kuzma/Ball/Ingram, even with the #4 pick in the mix. It's a bit of an extreme position, but hardly unthinkable that NO could have all 3 rated as JAGs at best.
 

nighthob

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I wonder if PG re-upped with OKC because he thought no one was going to beat GSW and losing in OKC would be more enjoyable than losing in LA with LBJ.
I mean that could very well be part of it, didn't Durant say this past year that a lot of stars don't want to play with LeBron (and if I recall correctly Kawhi Leonard was mentioned as one of them)? But George did re-up with OKC before free agency (he announced the deal himself at a party as the signing period was opening), so not wanting to play with a guy obviously headed to LA certainly could have played a role.

It's not just a wrinkle. Paul George's agent is Aaron Mintz of CAA, who has somewhat notoriously clashed with both Rob Pelinka and the Lakers over the years. Paul George, D'Angelo Russell and Julius Randle all share Mintz as an agent. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to connect the dots there.
I hadn’t looked at it from this angle, but you’re right about Mintz. He just might have taken glee in shafting Pelinka by encouraging George any chance he got.

“You know, Aaron, this place ain’t so bad.”
“Paul, baby, your personal comfort is really the most important thing. But is this better for you than performing in the Cirque du LeBron? Just think of all the stories they’ll write about you when you’re his sidekick. I mean your performances will get endless Stephen A Smith analyses.”
“Look, Aaron, I go to Starbucks for coffee here and I don't get mobbed. I think I like it here.”
“Well, if you say so, but just think of how much you’ll enjoy playing with LeBron and having Klutch sources talking about you after every three game losing streak.”
“Just get something ready with Sam and tell him that I’m probably coming back.”
“If you say so...”
 
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OurF'ingCity

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Reading the tea leaves, I suspect LA has already put their best offer on the table, and the reason AD isn't a Laker is because the Pels are trying to use that offer to leverage more out of Boston.

Or, the Pels already consider Boston's offer better than whatever LA can offer, but haven't yet agreed to anything with the Celtics because the Lakers are desperately looking for a viable third team to include additional assets to top Boston's offer.

Edit: I think it depends whether Boston has already offered Tatum. If they have, then I think the second explanation makes the most sense. If they haven't, then the first explanation may be more likely, with the Pels basically saying "include Tatum or LA has the best offer" and the Celtics equivocating or trying to come up with a better counteroffer that nonetheless leaves Tatum on the Cs.
 

RedOctober3829

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Reading the tea leaves, I suspect LA has already put their best offer on the table, and the reason AD isn't a Laker is because the Pels are trying to use that offer to leverage more out of Boston.

Or, the Pels already consider Boston's offer better than whatever LA can offer, but haven't yet agreed to anything with the Celtics because the Lakers are desperately looking for a viable third team to include additional assets to top Boston's offer.

Edit: I think it depends whether Boston has already offered Tatum. If they have, then I think the second explanation makes the most sense. If they haven't, then the first explanation may be more likely, with the Pels basically saying "include Tatum or LA has the best offer" and the Celtics equivocating or trying to come up with a better counteroffer that nonetheless leaves Tatum on the Cs.
To me, the trump card is Tatum. Ainge won't put him in the deal unless he absolutely has to.
 

the moops

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I like Tatum, but Ball + Kuzma + Ingram + #4 pick is a way better package than Tatum + filler. Tatum is likely to be the best players of all those dudes, but it is certainly no certainty. I would prefer 4 bites at finding an all star than 1
 

DJnVa

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I like Tatum, but Ball + Kuzma + Ingram + #4 pick is a way better package than Tatum + filler. Tatum is likely to be the best players of all those dudes, but it is certainly no certainty. I would prefer 4 bites at finding an all star than 1
Why is Smart and the #14 filler?
 

cheech13

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Tatum, Smart, Williams, #14 is a better package.
Is it though? Tatum is the best individual player being discussed and a better main piece than Ingram, but I think I'd rather have Ball/Kuzma/#4 than Smart/Williams/#14. Throw in the Memphis pick too and it probably swings back to Boston.
 

RedOctober3829

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Is it though? Tatum is the best individual player being discussed and a better main piece than Ingram, but I think I'd rather have Ball/Kuzma/#4 than Smart/Williams/#14. Throw in the Memphis pick too and it probably swings back to Boston.
If Tatum and Smart are in the deal, anything the C’s put in will trump the Lakers. Memphis pick would put it way over the top.
 

snowmanny

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I am pretty sure that the best return in any NBA trade is the one that gets you the single best player. If you believe that Tatum is very likely ultimately better than Kuzma, Ball or the #4 pick and that he has the best chance to turn into an all-star, then it's Tatum you want. In basketball a quarter beats three dimes.
 

the moops

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Why is Smart and the #14 filler?
I wasn't necessarily thinking of Smart and #14 as filler, but those two things are closer to filler than anyhting but interesting pieces for NO. And I like Smart. A lot. But to a non contending team like NO he is pretty useless compared to a few lottery tickets in Ingram/Ball/#4
 

DJnVa

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I wasn't necessarily thinking of Smart and #14 as filler, but those two things are closer to filler than anyhting but interesting pieces for NO. And I like Smart. A lot. But to a non contending team like NO he is pretty useless compared to a few lottery tickets in Ingram/Ball/#4

I disagree. There’s been some articles that Smart would be welcome in a locker room that’s gonna need a new identity and there are teams that wold want him if NO decided to deal him.

Also, there’s the Memphis pick but that’s the Celtics next shot at potential superstar.
 

Jimbodandy

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I wasn't necessarily thinking of Smart and #14 as filler, but those two things are closer to filler than anyhting but interesting pieces for NO. And I like Smart. A lot. But to a non contending team like NO he is pretty useless compared to a few lottery tickets in Ingram/Ball/#4
Lottery tickets is right.

Despite all of the Laker PR around Ball and Ingram, they aren't good players. And they both have ridiculously large question marks. Tatum has two years in this league getting starters minutes on a playoff team and advanced stats that embarrass both of those guys. The only question mark he has is where the ceiling is.

Four bites at a shit sandwich is not better than one small Italian sub with oil and vinegar.

The guy with little value to a rebuilding team is Kuzma. Smart at least plays defense and can pass the ball. That shit might rub off on your young guys. I can only speculate that Kuzma's value to Griffin is as a guy that can be spun off later to a playoff team that needs some bench scoring.
 

HomeRunBaker

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What long term bad look for Klutch results from Davis getting a movie role?
There should be no bad looks for Klutch if fans would simply accept LeBron’s agency for what it is. I mean, the latest has Rich Paul offering up Laker Asst Coaching jobs to prospective candidates.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Matching that with the Lakers going from 8-1 to 5-1......what could be have done that makes our odds that much better, but still not as good as the Lakers yesterday?

Story:

https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/celtics/celtics-2020-nba-title-odds-improve-anthony-davis-trade-rumors-persist
Either way, it's likely just Vegas realizing that one of the teams is getting him and taking advantage of that.
It’s a combination of the Durant injury and the realization that one of the Lakers or Celtics will acquire AD. They control their numbers so it doesn’t make sense to open yourself up to additional liability by not lowering the number on both until a deal is completed.
 

Average Game James

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Does the Klay injury combined with seeing Toronto go all-in on Kawhi and win now push another team to be more aggressive going after AD even as a 1 year rental? All of a sudden, the league looks wide open. If not the favorites, Denver or Portland would certainly be very strong contenders adding AD into the mix...
 

boca

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Does the Klay injury combined with seeing Toronto go all-in on Kawhi and win now push another team to be more aggressive going after AD even as a 1 year rental? All of a sudden, the league looks wide open. If not the favorites, Denver or Portland would certainly be very strong contenders adding AD into the mix...
You would think it would encourage the Lakers to be even more aggressive going after AD. The West is wide open now.
 

DJnVa

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Lots of NOP twitter thinks the hold up is that NOP wants Tatum and Brown or Tatum and the Memphis pick.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Lottery tickets is right.

Despite all of the Laker PR around Ball and Ingram, they aren't good players. And they both have ridiculously large question marks. Tatum has two years in this league getting starters minutes on a playoff team and advanced stats that embarrass both of those guys. The only question mark he has is where the ceiling is.

Four bites at a shit sandwich is not better than one small Italian sub with oil and vinegar.

The guy with little value to a rebuilding team is Kuzma. Smart at least plays defense and can pass the ball. That shit might rub off on your young guys. I can only speculate that Kuzma's value to Griffin is as a guy that can be spun off later to a playoff team that needs some bench scoring.
This, particularly with regards to the bolded. It's amazing to me that some people here can assess where Tatum is going to end up. Tatum had a historically good first season and a more difficult second season but he just turned 21. As a rough measure, the number of players who had earned 12 or more WS in their 19 and 20 year old seasons are 7: LBJ, Davis, Dwight Howard, Drummond, Kobe, Bosh, and Tatum. http://bkref.com/tiny/TZJsG

The Cs average age this year was 26.2 years old. (This is a little misleading because Wannamaker and Theis are two of their older guys (well three if you count Gibson) are from the Euroleague so their ages of 28 and 26 are misleading for the purposes of calculating average age.) Putting this website and this website together, if the Cs had won the championship, they would have been the youngest NBA champion in recent memory.

In other words, I'm pretty certain both JB and JT are going to get better. I don't know how much better but remember in his second year, Kawhi was playing 31 minutes a game but only averaging 11.9 points per game.