Anthony Davis: No Loyalty

RedOctober3829

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Woj clarifies that it’s Cs vs Lakers for Ad

To be clear, of course: The Celtics and Lakers are trying to negotiate independent deals with New Orleans for Anthony Davis. There's no spirit of cooperation here. The Lakers No. 4 pick would be used to acquire Davis in a multi-team deal that does NOT include Boston.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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If this is a rental, no way do you include Tatum
AD will not immediately sign any extension with whomever acquires him as its not in his best interest to do so. And if Boston trades for him, they will almost certainly have to surrender Tatum. As such, they would indeed be including Tatum for a rental.
 

DrewDawg

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BaseballJones

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Let's say that Kyrie is gone, period, end of story. The Celtics end up moving Tatum and the Memphis pick for AD. Rozier goes elsewhere because the Celtics aren't paying him huge dollars to stay, not coming off this past season. Re-sign Baynes. That leaves them with: Brown, Smart, Hayward, Horford, Davis, Time Lord, Ojeleye, Yabu, plus the #14 and #22. That's still a ton of talent, especially if Brown takes the next step and Hayward is much closer to his pre-injury form. Clearly they'd still need a shooter or two and a point guard. But if they filled those spaces, that should be a very very very good team, able to contend with anyone in the league, I'd think. Would it be enough for AD to stay?
 

DrewDawg

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Would think LAL is using #4 pick+Ball for maybe someone like Beal to flip to NO.
Not sure the money works. Lakers salary structure is top heavy, and NBA trade machine doesn't have anyone making more than Ball's $7.5M that can be dealt now.
 

cheech13

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Not sure the money works. Lakers salary structure is top heavy, and NBA trade machine doesn't have anyone making more than Ball's $7.5M that can be dealt now.
Lakers have the cap space to absorb AD outright. They won't need to match salaries.
 

nighthob

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If thats reasonable, from ADs perspective it might not make much sense for him to join a LBJ thats potentially breaking down (or on the verge) and is no longer the player he was, yet one that is still sucking up a 41 Million dollar max Slot.

From LBJs perspective he may realize that this is his last contract (expires After 21-22 when he is 36). So while he wont need the money, it also may not behoove his future business dealings if it appears that Klutch steered one of their prime clients to an LA team so an aging Lebron has someone to lean on. Maybe they should be called Crutch Sports Group. Instead it may behoove their business model for the Celts (or another historical team, so yeah lakers or Knicks included) to sign him to a mega contract and remain a relevant championship contender for the next 3 or so years (Not sure the Lakers or Knicks would be in that position).

So will Lebron hold up another 2-3 years? By a month into the next season he will have played more minutes (Playoff and Regular Season) then anyone not named Kareem or Karl. And he is accumulating mins about 1.16 times as fast as Kareem per season.

I think it could be seen one way if your uniting with a player for 2-4+ years of an extended run. You might allow your Agency to "pull some strings" and "cut some corners". Its another if you pull those strings for maybe a year or 2 of effective cooperation.
At 36 and showing wear, You might be better off letting your agency do as the market has always done, Get the most money in the best scenario (which includes competitive team and "enjoyable" environment). You might also not want to piss off another (along with the Pels) Franchise by "tampering". At least not for a guy who may well be breaking down by that point and only have @1 all star year left.

Now AD may actually want LA (or South beach or Phoenix or wherever..) over all else. But I am beginning to think that by kicking the can a year further down the road the LBJ factor would be that much more minimized. And if LBJ is no longer the driving reason to go to LA then do you go considering all else? Especially when LBJs 40+ million is essentially the same thing Kobe did in that it could potentially "gut the franchise" by paying a broken down star Max Money. In essence hamstringing the team from being able to put any talent around a "second fiddle" like AD after LBJs breakdown/retirement.
A (hopefully) deep playoff run, A Raucous Garden, Stable coach, GM and owner, and you begin to think that Boston is a pretty decent place to commit long term.
I’m not aiming these remarks at you personally, because this is just 7000th post expressing some variant of “Boston is so awesome that Davis will fire his agent and stay”. Except that we already saw, post Davis fiasco last winter, that Boston isn’t so awesome when Klutch is doing everything in its power to suck the life out of the clubhouse so that the star is eager to exit. Boston would need to convince Davis to stay after an entire year of the misery the franchise went through from January through May.

Expecting anything less than 2-4 salacious stories of discord a week is wishcasting. No matter how stable management looks, the clubhouse won’t be. Klutch will make sure of that.

HRB called this last summer, and I was a skeptic until we saw the lengths Klutch was willing to go to to poison things in Boston and make it even less attractive publicly and to warn Boston what they were facing if they went ahead anyway. From the perspective of Boston or any team other than the Lakers Klutch has a massive conflict of interest. Only Davis doesn’t see it that way, which is likely why he hired them to be his agents, because they were the team to get him to the Lakers.

I guess it depends on how much you rate the #4 in this draft; I'm not a draftnik but the dearth of blue chip prospects seems to indicate that the improvement while real is relatively marginal. Ingram was the lead asset in the deadline deal and the blood clots open up significant uncertainty.

The other reason why I see a "Billy King" deal is that the Lakers FO has no leadership and a strong incentive to push their chips in now. If you're the Pels, don't you go hard for 2022-2024-2026 #1s or some combination of those + pick swaps? Could be huge for them if they do.
I agree with this, if you’re Griffin you make a bet on the post-LeBron years and see what LA can cobble together for current assets. If the Lakers can talk Chicago or Phoenix into some variant of Ball for their firsts, a deal is probably doable. Griffin can probably even get picks for Ingram once he proves to be healthy. But coming out of this draft with a potentially elite 3&D guy like Hunter and then the ability to roll the dice on Reddish or Porter, or draft a defensive backstop like Hayes, while betting on the Lakers sucking post-LeBron is probably not a bad return.

Yup, this is probably true but I would still roll the dice on one of year of AD. You could win a title next year & then if he walks? Who cares Celts are champs. That is the one & only goal. Tatum will never be as good as AD & is not a generational talent like AD that will lead Celts to a title unless he’s the second or third best player on a team. You go for this move every. Single. Time. Just ask the Raps. No Durant next year. Add AD to the Celts & they can do it. Yeah it’s fun to watch the young guys but I want to see new banners in the rafters not early exists. Obviously getting Davis guarantees nothing but the hardest thing to do in the NBA is to get a true superstar & to a win a title without a true superstar. Get Davis & you can accomplish both.
You could, you almost certainly don’t. Then he leaves and you’ve emptied the larder and now you’re the Miami Heat, a scrappy team of roleplayers trying to take the eighth playoff spot and getting bounced in the first round when you’re lucky enough to make it. At which point you have to ask How long is the coach sticking around? because he’ll almost certainly have a pile of offers waiting for him when he hits free agency.

AD isn’t a generational talent. He isn’t even the best player in the NBA. So either the word “generational talent” is a lot more inclusive than I thought, or he’s just a top 4-8 player in the NBA (maybe we can promote him a spot due to Durant’s injury). Don’t get me wrong, he’s a great player. And you do need guys like that to win a title. But the odds of doing it year one are approximately 0%, and you’ll never get another chance. Time for Plan B.

Now that Kyrie has elected to become a FA, the C’s can officially trade for AD
Only in the same sense that they could do it right now. Kyrie exercised his ETO, which makes him a free agent as of July 1st. So trades can’t be completed until the new NBA season (though they can be agreed on now as is the case with the recent Crabbe trade).
 

cheech13

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Ball/Ingram/#4 is probably not enough, but it's enticing.
If I were a betting man I'd wager that AD ends up in LA, #4 and Ball end up on a third team and Ingram and whatever the third team provides (Beal?) go to NOP.
 
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DrewDawg

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Lakers have the cap space to absorb AD outright. They won't need to match salaries.
Then why doesn't the NBA Trade Machine recognize that? You could be 100% right, but the Trade Machine is not very helpful if that's not factored in.
 

cheech13

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Then why doesn't the NBA Trade Machine recognize that?
Guessing that the NBA trade machine is based on 2018-19 salaries and not 2019-20. Any trade would be completed in the new league year starting after July 1. ESPN probably doesn't update that for a while.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Then why doesn't the NBA Trade Machine recognize that? You could be 100% right, but the Trade Machine is not very helpful if that's not factored in.
I think that is because the new league year hasn't officially started and thus the cap space isn't technically available 'today'

A feature where they let you pick "on July 1" would probably be a wise addition for them
 

PedroKsBambino

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I’m not aiming these remarks at you personally, because this is just 7000th post expressing some variant of “Boston is so awesome that Davis will fire his agent and stay”. Except that we already saw, post Davis fiasco last winter, that Boston isn’t so awesome when Klutch is doing everything in its power to suck the life out of the clubhouse so that the star is eager to exit. Boston would need to convince Davis to stay after an entire year of the misery the franchise went through from January through May.

Expecting anything less than 2-4 salacious stories of discord a week is wishcasting. No matter how stable management looks, the clubhouse won’t be. Klutch will make sure of that.

HRB called this last summer, and I was a skeptic until we saw the lengths Klutch was willing to go to to poison things in Boston and make it even less attractive publicly and to warn Boston what they were facing if they went ahead anyway. From the perspective of Boston or any team other than the Lakers Klutch has a massive conflict of interest. Only Davis doesn’t see it that way, which is likely why he hired them to be his agents, because they were the team to get him to the Lakers.



I agree with this, if you’re Griffin you make a bet on the post-LeBron years and see what LA can cobble together for current assets. If the Lakers can talk Chicago or Phoenix into some variant of Ball for their firsts, a deal is probably doable. Griffin can probably even get picks for Ingram once he proves to be healthy. But coming out of this draft with a potentially elite 3&D guy like Hunter and then the ability to roll the dice on Reddish or Porter, or draft a defensive backstop like Hayes, while betting on the Lakers sucking post-LeBron is probably not a bad return.



You could, you almost certainly don’t. Then he leaves and you’ve emptied the larder and now you’re the Miami Heat, a scrappy team of roleplayers trying to take the eighth playoff spot and getting bounced in the first round when you’re lucky enough to make it. At which point you have to ask How long is the coach sticking around? because he’ll almost certainly have a pile of offers waiting for him when he hits free agency.

AD isn’t a generational talent. He isn’t even the best player in the NBA. So either the word “generational talent” is a lot more inclusive than I thought, or he’s just a top 4-8 player in the NBA (maybe we can promote him a spot due to Durant’s injury). Don’t get me wrong, he’s a great player. And you do need guys like that to win a title. But the odds of doing it year one are approximately 0%, and you’ll never get another chance. Time for Plan B.



Only in the same sense that they could do it right now. Kyrie exercised his ETO, which makes him a free agent as of July 1st. So trades can’t be completed until the new NBA season (though they can be agreed on now as is the case with the recent Crabbe trade).
I think the real bet with AD is that as a recent Klutch client he may be persuadable---to stay in Boston, to fire Klutch, or both.

I also think it's possible (not sure likely, but they have much better info than we do) that they believe they are effectively trading for Kyrie and AD, which if true makes almost anything they give a good deal for Celts.
 

lexrageorge

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HRB called this last summer, and I was a skeptic until we saw the lengths Klutch was willing to go to to poison things in Boston and make it even less attractive publicly and to warn Boston what they were facing if they went ahead anyway. From the perspective of Boston or any team other than the Lakers Klutch has a massive conflict of interest. Only Davis doesn’t see it that way, which is likely why he hired them to be his agents, because they were the team to get him to the Lakers.
I'm curious how this could happen. I mean, if Davis were to be traded to the Celtics, Klutch and Davis simply have to wait it out one year until he's a UFA. There's no way to undo the trade, so no reason to poison the club house at all. Klutch can still convince Davis that LA is where it's at without going through any great lengths. And Danny seems to have a better relationship with players and agents than Demps.

The hypothetical team with Davis and Kyrie does not have guys like Rozier and Morris who think they should be starters so they can get paid. It likely won't have Tatum trying to become Kobe. The clubhouse dynamic would be different to start. There could be a chemistry issue between Brown and Hayward perhaps, but that I believe may be mitigated by jettisoning Morris.

Kawhi didn't lose anything by acting like a good soldier for the Raptors. If anything, his star shines brighter than ever. Why couldn't Davis do the same?

EDIT: And while it appears that I may be dumping on Morris, I do find it interesting that the one Klutch client that was in the Celtics locker room this season has openly stated he would like to return to Boston.
 

DrewDawg

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It's funny that the Lakers offer has been leaked but not the Celtics offer. Makes you wonder who is leaking this info to Woj.
Wasn't that the same offer as at the trade deadline? I'm not sure that's news. They're just counting on the Celtics backing off their offer.
 

cheech13

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https://twitter.com/taniaganguli/status/1138907076204195840

One player that the Lakers’ trade discussions with the Pelicans for Anthony Davis could hinge on? Kyle Kuzma. The Lakers do not want to trade him, but the Pelicans want him as part of a package, sources tell me and @BA_Turner.

LA Times beat writer indicating that NOP wants Kuzma and the Lakers are currently resisting. My guess is that they aren't going to let Kuzma hold up a deal if that's what is necessary.

EDIT: Does anyone know how to embed tweets now?
 

nighthob

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I think the real bet with AD is that as a recent Klutch client he may be persuadable---to stay in Boston, to fire Klutch, or both.
Right, that’s the wishcasting part. Davis wasn’t some country bumpkin that hired the agency LeBron owns with no idea what was going on behind the scenes. He almost certainly hired them for that reason. Maybe he’s angry that Aaron Gordon had had more starring roles than he’s had. Hey, maybe Kyrie signs a five year deal and gets an Uncle Drew sequel that he can dangle to Davis. But even if the point of Davis is getting Irving to sign on the dotted line, how much is that worth?
 

RedOctober3829

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Wasn't that the same offer as at the trade deadline? I'm not sure that's news. They're just counting on the Celtics backing off their offer.
The offer from the Lakers is less than what the reported offer was at the deadline. I believe Zubac and Kuzma were in that deal in February. They don't want to deal Kuzma and Zubac is on another team. The change would be whatever they could get with the #4 pick that interests NO.
 

nighthob

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I'm curious how this could happen. I mean, if Davis were to be traded to the Celtics, Klutch and Davis simply have to wait it out one year until he's a UFA. There's no way to undo the trade, so no reason to poison the club house at all. Klutch can still convince Davis that LA is where it's at without going through any great lengths.
To make certain that their client doesn’t change his mind. Klutch’s owner wants Davis in LA playing with him. They want no possibility of his getting comfortable in Boston.

EDIT: And while it appears that I may be dumping on Morris, I do find it interesting that the one Klutch client that was in the Celtics locker room this season has openly stated he would like to return to Boston
If Marcus Morris were a top 10 player in the NBA and LeBron wanted him as a teammate, believe you me things would have been different. ;)
 

DrewDawg

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The offer from the Lakers is less than what the reported offer was at the deadline. I believe Zubac and Kuzma were in that deal in February. They don't want to deal Kuzma and Zubac is on another team. The change would be whatever they could get with the #4 pick that interests NO.
Makes sense. But there's also not really a lot of variations available to the LAL pick, outside of Kuzma.
 

DrewDawg

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My point was that the Lakers offer is out in the open while the Celtics isn't. Is this pressure for Danny to go all-in? Looks like it to me.
Seems weird to lower their offer as pressure for the Celtics to up their offer. Silly season indeed.
 

PedroKsBambino

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I think it could be Laker leaks as likely as, and perhaps more so, than Pelicans leaks.

Lakers have same core team in place that leaked like a sieve all season, and they no doubt want to let fans know they are trying for AD. I read the Kuzma thing as being as likely to be true as a Laker ploy to allow Pelicans to say they 'won' by getting Lakers to put him in. Lakers also are the team who cares most (along with Knicks) about speed here becuase the 4th pick loses trade value once it becomes an actual player.

I doubt Griffin cares about any of this baloney.
 

OurF'ingCity

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You could, you almost certainly don’t. Then he leaves and you’ve emptied the larder and now you’re the Miami Heat, a scrappy team of roleplayers trying to take the eighth playoff spot and getting bounced in the first round when you’re lucky enough to make it. At which point you have to ask How long is the coach sticking around? because he’ll almost certainly have a pile of offers waiting for him when he hits free agency.
Yes, but if Kyrie leaves this year and they don't get AD, are they any better than that in 2019-20 anyway? I guess in the ideal situation Tatum and Brown take massive leaps forward, Hayward regains his old form and they hit on some draft picks. Even in that scenario they are probably at best somewhere in the 6-4 seed range in what has become a much more competitive Eastern Conference (especially if Kyrie stays in the East and goes to Knicks or Nets) and don't really have a legitimate shot at the title.

So as much as it would suck to end up trading Tatum+ for one year of a distracted AD only to watch AD bolt to the Lakers and Tatum blossom on NO or some other team, I still suspect the Celtics are willing to take that risk because I think they (logically) see things in black and white - either you are a legitimate contender, or you aren't, and in the latter case, it doesn't really matter whether you are the 6 seed in the East or the worst team in the entire league (heck, even with the new lottery system, there is still an argument to be made that tanking - to a certain degree - has more upside that being a perennial playoff also-ran).
 

cheech13

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Seems weird to lower their offer as pressure for the Celtics to up their offer. Silly season indeed.
To be fair it was Dell Demps negotiating with Magic at the deadline and now it's Griffin and Pelinka. Different front offices. Different goals. Different evaluations of players. It would make sense that they re-evaluate and discuss the pieces. Pelinka calling up Griffin and saying anything and everything is still on the table doesn't help in a negotiation. It also allows the Lakers to offer something "new" (e.g. Kuzma) when Boston comes with their initial offer.
 

nighthob

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Yes, but if Kyrie leaves this year and they don't get AD, are they any better than that in 2019-20 anyway? I guess in the ideal situation Tatum and Brown take massive leaps forward, Hayward regains his old form and they hit on some draft picks. Even in that scenario they are probably at best somewhere in the 6-4 seed range in what has become a much more competitive Eastern Conference (especially if Kyrie stays in the East and goes to Knicks or Nets) and don't really have a legitimate shot at the title.
I think we all agree that if Irving leaves Boston’s in a transitional phase. And I even agree that a theoretical Davis trade that gets Irving to sign a five year deal is a good thing. The problem is how do you price that? But if Irving signs a five year extension then I’m tentatively on board with a Davis rental. But if Irving signs a 1+1, then I’m out. Having two stars with their feet half way out the door will be last season squared.
 

RedOctober3829

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I think we all agree that if Irving leaves Boston’s in a transitional phase. And I even agree that a theoretical Davis trade that gets Irving to sign a five year deal is a good thing. The problem is how do you price that? But if Irving signs a five year extension then I’m tentatively on board with a Davis rental. But if Irving signs a 1+1, then I’m out. Having two stars with their feet half way out the door will be last season squared.
Kyrie isn't going to sign a 1+1. Shortest deal he'll sign is one that will get him to be eligible for the 10-year max.
 

cheech13

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Kyrie isn't going to sign a 1+1. Shortest deal he'll sign is one that will get him to be eligible for the 10-year max.
He's an eight-year veteran. A 1+1 deal gets him ten years while preserving maximum flexibility. A 2+1 gets there as well, but for a player that has made as much money as Kyrie I think the additional flexibility of the 1+1 is key.
 

cheech13

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If he declines the player option in a 1+1 as they always do , then he doesn't get to 10. That was my thinking.
He could turn it down and sign another 1+1 deal with the Celtics or another team. He could pick up the option if he suffers a catastrophic injury. Or he could pick it up and kick the can down the road. The 1+1 gives him the most options.
 

nighthob

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The Nets do have the ability to give the Pelicans a current all star, even if it is just DeAngelo Russell. And he does help a bit with the spacing for Zion. I can definitely see it.