Angels trade Hamilton to TEX

[WayBackVazquez]

Trying to cheat? Really? The Angels will investigate and exploit any avenue they have under the law to void or rescind or amend the contract. That's what businesses do with bad contracts. There is no "cheating" here. If the Angels pursue legal action, the matter will ultimately be decided by a court or an arbitrator.

Did Hamilton "cheat" by reporting his bender directly to the team? Because I would say he violated at least the spirit of not the letter of the JDA.

 

[soxhop411]

Trying to cheat? Really? The Angels will investigate and exploit any avenue they have under the law to void or rescind or amend the contract. That's what businesses do with bad contracts. There is no "cheating" here. If the Angels pursue legal action, the matter will ultimately be decided by a court or an arbitrator.

Did Hamilton "cheat" by reporting his bender directly to the team? Because I would say he violated at least the spirit of not the letter of the JDA.

we all know that if Hamilton came off an MVP season last year, the Angels would not be acting like assholes, and would be welcoming him back with open arms...

 

[WayBackVazquez]

we all know that if Hamilton came off an MVP season last year, the Angels would not be acting like assholes, and would be welcoming him back with open arms...

Of course they would, and it doesn't mean a damned thing. It's called business. If the housing market had continued to rise and their mortgage-backed securities had continued to produce returns, then Fannie and Freddie's conservators wouldn't be suing investment banks over purported misrepresentations about underwriting.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Trying to cheat? Really? The Angels will investigate and exploit any avenue they have under the law to void or rescind or amend the contract. That's what businesses do with bad contracts. There is no "cheating" here. If the Angels pursue legal action, the matter will ultimately be decided by a court or an arbitrator.

Did Hamilton "cheat" by reporting his bender directly to the team? Because I would say he violated at least the spirit of not the letter of the JDA.

The one thing they almost certainly did is leak the story  to their club mouthpiece reporter, directly violating the confidentiality requirements. Of course MLB won't investigate because "there is no evidence the leak came from the club".  Because usually you only investigate who violated a rule if you only have evidence telling you who did it.
Imagine if police worked that way... Ooops no eyewitness to this murder, can't investigate it.

 

[crystalline]

Again. What incentive does MLB have to investigate a club for wrongdoing? MLB *IS* the clubs. There is an inbuilt conflict of interest.

A better analogy would be: imagine if a policeman was accused of a crime. Would other policemen and prosecutors who work with the accused every day investigate their colleague? (As it turns out, no- not unless there is a smoking gun video).

Same reason Donald Sterling wasn't forced out until there was a smoking-gun audio tape. The NBA doesn't want to punish an owner unless they are forced to by external pressure.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Again. What incentive does MLB have to investigate a club for wrongdoing? MLB *IS* the clubs. There is an inbuilt conflict of interest.

A better analogy would be: imagine if a policeman was accused of a crime. Would other policemen and prosecutors who work with the accused every day investigate their colleague? (As it turns out, no- not unless there is a smoking gun video).

Same reason Donald Sterling wasn't forced out until there was a smoking-gun audio tape. The NBA doesn't want to punish an owner unless they are forced to by external pressure.

Well the incentive for punishing obvious wrongdoings in this case would be that if the union knows that you plan to violate agreements left and right it makes labor negotiations far more difficult. If you are the players union what is your incentive to trade anything for changes in the JDA if you know the only sections the league will actually abide by are the ones that force outside arbitration?
 
The league is the owners sure, but the owners have conflicting interests amongst themselves. They want to protect themselves personally at all costs, but when one owner makes it difficult for the others, there is an incentive to make some show of enforcing rules. The other owners probably don't think this is worth it, but it definitely makes things harder for them with the Union, and public opinion at least so far is mostly behind Hamilton.
 
The cop analogy isn't bad, but not entirely accurate because of the relationship between the players and the league. My point in using the cop analogy wasn't that they should do an investigation, but that the reasoning they gave for not doing one was unbelievably stupid.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Double post.

 

[mauidano]

Josh is having some dark days...filed for divorce from his wife.  Looks like it's already nasty.  Might be a good thing if she is causing additional stress.  She had signed on for the reality show "The Real Housewives of Orange County".  That probably didn't help the marriage.
 
http://thescoopblog.dallasnews.com/2015/04/ex-ranger-josh-hamilton-filed-for-divorce-at-time-relapse-went-public-court-records-show.html/

 

[MakMan44]

Man, I feel bad for the guy. Not a good year for him.

 

[Average Reds]

Josh is having some dark days...filed for divorce from his wife.  Looks like it's already nasty.  Might be a good thing if she is causing additional stress.  She had signed on for the reality show "The Real Housewives of Orange County".  That probably didn't help the marriage.
 
http://thescoopblog.dallasnews.com/2015/04/ex-ranger-josh-hamilton-filed-for-divorce-at-time-relapse-went-public-court-records-show.html/

Well, you were spot on here and I was completely wrong.

After all they have been through I did not see that coming. But I guess the breakup was a big part of the relapse if I understand the timing correctly.

 

[Hank Scorpio]

Isn't his father-in-law his "accountabili-buddy"? Dark days indeed.

 

[Dahabenzapple2]

No one's father-in-law is gonna keep anyone clean. Maybe for a while. Not for the long term.

He needs other recovering addicts to help him. The only way that I know of is to follow the example of those who have stayed clean for long periods of time by living a life of recovery. Then what we do is pass it on. Unbroken chain.

 

[Dahabenzapple2]

Well, you were spot on here and I was completely wrong.

After all they have been through I did not see that coming. But I guess the breakup was a big part of the relapse if I understand the timing correctly.

Relapse doesn't happen because of a break-up, death in the family or other bad stuff. Relapse happens due to lack of a program of recovery. When the bad shit happens, if there is no program, no support group, no sponser, no meetings, no steps - good time for a relapse.

Happens all the time.

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

No one's father-in-law is gonna keep anyone clean. Maybe for a while. Not for the long term.

He needs other recovering addicts to help him. The only way that I know of is to follow the example of those who have stayed clean for long periods of time by living a life of recovery. Then what we do is pass it on. Unbroken chain.

Do we know that his father in law wasn't a recovering addict himself?

 

[WayBackVazquez]

Do we know that his father in law wasn't a recovering addict himself?

Pretty sure we know that he is.

 

[Dahabenzapple2]

Pretty sure we know that he is.

This is I didn't know.

 

[mauidano]

Pretty sure we know that he is.

From the article:
"Her father, Michael Dean Chadwick, battled drug addiction for 15 years before becoming a faith-based motivational speaker. Chadwick helped Josh Hamilton deal with his substance abuse in the early 2000s."
 
 
 

 

[Myt1]

Josh is having some dark days...filed for divorce from his wife.  Looks like it's already nasty.  Might be a good thing if she is causing additional stress.  She had signed on for the reality show "The Real Housewives of Orange County".  That probably didn't help the marriage.
 
http://thescoopblog.dallasnews.com/2015/04/ex-ranger-josh-hamilton-filed-for-divorce-at-time-relapse-went-public-court-records-show.html/

Yeah, I'm sure it's her.
 
Why do you consistently find a way to blame women who are in relationships with shitty men?

 

[Myt1]

Yes, I think they have a right to void his contract.

Under the clause you cited?  I doubt very much that you're right and I doubt very much that it's particularly close.

 

[mauidano]

Yeah, I'm sure it's her.
 
Why do you consistently find a way to blame women who are in relationships with shitty men?

Let it go. No one is blaming anyone except you.  Said that the show probably didn't help the marriage. Ultimately Josh is responsible.

 

[Spacemans Bong]

If I'm another owner, why do I want Arte Moreno to get a freebie on a shitty contract he signed? Any team in the AL shouldn't want Arte to skate and get another $25 million to strengthen the team. 

 

[Hyde Park Factor]

It's entirely conceivable that the other owners will be perfectly happy to see this precedent set. Having the ability to get out from under lousy contracts would benefit all of them.

 

[Average Reds]

Despite his petulance at his own foolishness, Moreno is not getting out from under the contract. 

 

[Average Reds]

Relapse doesn't happen because of a break-up, death in the family or other bad stuff. Relapse happens due to lack of a program of recovery. When the bad shit happens, if there is no program, no support group, no sponser, no meetings, no steps - good time for a relapse.

Happens all the time.

 
For more than a decade, Hamilton's support system was based on his marriage.
 
His wife was his backstop.  His father in-law (an addict himself) was his accountability partner.  So I can completely understand how the disintegration of his marriage left Hamilton vulnerable.

 

[charlieoscar]

Under the clause you cited?  I doubt very much that you're right and I doubt very much that it's particularly close.

 
I'm not an attorney nor do I claim to understand contract law but the clause I cited from the Standard MLB Player Contract,
 
Loyalty 3.(a) The Player agrees to perform his services hereunder diligently and faithfully, to keep himself in first-class physical condition and to obey the Club’s training rules, and pledges himself to the American public and to the Club to conform to high standards of personal conduct, fair play and good sportsmanship.,
 
is not being met by Hamilton. Why is that not a breach of contract? If he is taking illegal drugs then I do not see the reason why the club should not be able to void his contract. If you or I were to sign a contract to work for some company, then started going on benders, coming in to work drunk, not getting the job done, how long do you think that company would keep us around? And drinking isn't illegal.

 

[sean1562]

 
I'm not an attorney nor do I claim to understand contract law but the clause I cited from the Standard MLB Player Contract,
 
Loyalty 3.(a) The Player agrees to perform his services hereunder diligently and faithfully, to keep himself in first-class physical condition and to obey the Club’s training rules, and pledges himself to the American public and to the Club to conform to high standards of personal conduct, fair play and good sportsmanship.,
 
is not being met by Hamilton. Why is that not a breach of contract? If he is taking illegal drugs then I do not see the reason why the club should not be able to void his contract. If you or I were to sign a contract to work for some company, then started going on benders, coming in to work drunk, not getting the job done, how long do you think that company would keep us around? And drinking isn't illegal.

 
he passed all the drug tests didnt he? he never came into work drunk no? if steroids dont allow teams to void contracts, especially after positive tests, why would a known addict saying i relapsed during my divorce proceedings allow them to burn the deals? if Arod's contract cant be voided, why should Hamilton's?
 
edit: also, he isnt able to play because he is injured no? It wouldnt be the first time someone has taken leave for personal problems as well. After signing a guaranteed contract all he has to do is play baseball, he isnt contractually obligated to hit 30 home runs every year. 

 

[Joshv02]

 
I'm not an attorney nor do I claim to understand contract law but the clause I cited from the Standard MLB Player Contract,
 
Loyalty 3.(a) The Player agrees to perform his services hereunder diligently and faithfully, to keep himself in first-class physical condition and to obey the Club’s training rules, and pledges himself to the American public and to the Club to conform to high standards of personal conduct, fair play and good sportsmanship.,
 
is not being met by Hamilton. Why is that not a breach of contract? If he is taking illegal drugs then I do not see the reason why the club should not be able to void his contract. If you or I were to sign a contract to work for some company, then started going on benders, coming in to work drunk, not getting the job done, how long do you think that company would keep us around? And drinking isn't illegal.

You don't need to get very far.  All the uniform player contracts are read in the context of a CBA that governs all contracts.  If the CBA covers something, the player contract cannot circumvent that.  Drugs/testing/etc are under the CBA.  Therefore, they aren't covered by the player contract.  (Its a little more complicated, but that's roughly the end point.)
 
You can get more complicated - types of breach, etc. - but there really isn't a need to.  

 

[Snodgrass'Muff]

 
For more than a decade, Hamilton's support system was based on his marriage.
 
His wife was his backstop.  His father in-law (an addict himself) was his accountability partner.  So I can completely understand how the disintegration of his marriage left Hamilton vulnerable.

 
Why are we assuming that his marriage falling apart caused his lapse in sobriety and not that his struggles with sobriety have caused his marriage to fall apart? The fact that we've only heard about one incident doesn't necessarily mean there's only been one. We know he's struggled to stay clean in the past, even back in Texas. Hamilton has a history of falling off the wagon and it's entirely possible that this latest incident was one too many for his wife.

 

[Average Reds]

 
Why are we assuming that his marriage falling apart caused his lapse in sobriety and not that his struggles with sobriety have caused his marriage to fall apart? The fact that we've only heard about one incident doesn't necessarily mean there's only been one. We know he's struggled to stay clean in the past, even back in Texas. Hamilton has a history of falling off the wagon and it's entirely possible that this latest incident was one too many for his wife.

 
I was not as precise as I should have been in post 162.
 
At the time Hamilton self-reported his relapse, he indicated that the catalyst was a fight with his wife.  No further details were provided.  Now we learn that the timing of the "fight with his wife" was right around the same time that they filed for divorce.  It seems pretty obvious that there is a connection between these events even if there is not clarity about the specific relationship between them.  Add into the mix the role of Hamilton's father in-law in his life and the tweet that Chadwick sent out at that time and there is clearly a enormous amount that we don't know.
 
So you are correct.

 

[MuzzyField]

The Angels will pay the man.  HER divorce attorney will be the icing on the cake to protect HER piece of that giant money pie.  The MLBPA will take care of the rest. 
 
Oh, and how do we know SHE isn't part of the break-up problem. I'm sure her dad was a joy to be around during his addict days and looking at the possibility of joining the cast of a reality show of "real" housewives sure paints her as a women with her shit together.  The only reason to do that would be to focus on him (non-baseball) in the public forum of a national cable show.  This would be an awesome move for the kids... right mom?
 
I guess it's all just life Southern California.
 
As AR points out, we are much closer to knowing nothing about this situation than anything of substance. But if the Angels can leak and posture, so can we.
 
I hope Arte needs to build a satellite office for Dr. Andrews in his clubhouse. The Angels can't lose enough... I hope they get Dave Henderson'd every day and die in the basement of the AL West.

 

[charlieoscar]

It seems to be the Joint Drug Agreement that governs this area; although, I confess to finding legalese not the easiest thing to follow.
 
7.M. Exclusive Discipline
All authority to discipline Players for violations of the Program shall repose with the Commissioner's Office. No Club may take any disciplinary or adverse action against a Player (including, but not limited to. a fine, suspension, or any adverse action pursuant to a Uniform Player’s Contract) because of a Player’s violation of the Program. Nothing in this Section 7.M is intended to address whether: (i) a Club may take adverse action in response to a Player’s failure to render his services due to a disability resulting directly from a physical injury or mental condition arising from his violation of the Program; or (ii) a Club may withhold salary from a Player for any period he is unavailable because of legal proceedings or incarceration arising from his violation of the Program.
 
That suggests to me that if a player cannot perform because of drug use, the club may take action based on the phrase from the Standard Player Contract I previously cited. Of course, attorneys/courts/arbitrators may have different interpretations. I'm simply trying to understand.

 

[Cellar-Door]

 
It seems to be the Joint Drug Agreement that governs this area; although, I confess to finding legalese not the easiest thing to follow.
 
7.M. Exclusive Discipline
All authority to discipline Players for violations of the Program shall repose with the Commissioner's Office. No Club may take any disciplinary or adverse action against a Player (including, but not limited to. a fine, suspension, or any adverse action pursuant to a Uniform Player’s Contract) because of a Player’s violation of the Program. Nothing in this Section 7.M is intended to address whether: (i) a Club may take adverse action in response to a Player’s failure to render his services due to a disability resulting directly from a physical injury or mental condition arising from his violation of the Program; or (ii) a Club may withhold salary from a Player for any period he is unavailable because of legal proceedings or incarceration arising from his violation of the Program.
 
That suggests to me that if a player cannot perform because of drug use, the club may take action based on the phrase from the Standard Player Contract I previously cited. Of course, attorneys/courts/arbitrators may have different interpretations. I'm simply trying to understand.
 

This doesn't come close to applying to Hamilton for two reasons.
 
1. He isn't unable to render services because of any disability directly resulting from drug use.
2. He didn't violate the Program according to an arbitrator.
 
Even before we get to wrangling about which language governs, partial vs. total breach, and past practice, he didn't do anything that would  subject him to team or league discipline, it was decided by the arbitration process agreed to by both sides of the CBA, it's a closed issue.
 
Moreno is likely being annoying just in the hope Hamilton will let the team buy him out for less than the remaining value, and Moreno probably delusionally think this will help him win the PR war.

 

[charlieoscar]

This doesn't come close to applying to Hamilton for two reasons.
 
1. He isn't unable to render services because of any disability directly resulting from drug use.
2. He didn't violate the Program according to an arbitrator.
 
Even before we get to wrangling about which language governs, partial vs. total breach, and past practice, he didn't do anything that would  subject him to team or league discipline, it was decided by the arbitration process agreed to by both sides of the CBA, it's a closed issue.
 
Moreno is likely being annoying just in the hope Hamilton will let the team buy him out for less than the remaining value, and Moreno probably delusionally think this will help him win the PR war.

 
When I write that I was not aware Hamilton was on the DL with a shoulder injury. And if an arbitrator has already ruled there is no sense in discussing this particular case.
 
However, in a hypothetical case when drug usage prevents a person under contract from playing, I think the owner should have the right to cancel that player's contract.

 

[Average Reds]

Please don't take this the wrong way, but we've been talking specifically about Hamilton in this thread for the entire time. And it's not hard to learn that (1) he's not on the DL for anything related to drug/alcohol use, and (2) the arbitrator has already ruled.

I mean, this thread picked up again precisely because of the arbitrators ruling, which we've been discussing for a few pages. It seems incredible that you didn't know this.

Do better.

 

[Myt1]

Let it go. No one is blaming anyone except you.  Said that the show probably didn't help the marriage.

And that it was "pure ego" on her part to pursue the show, and that he should therefore start the divorce proceedings, and that she is the one likely causing additional stress.

You know, by being on a reality show. The qurstion of whether the decision to play baseball before millions of fans for millions of dollars increases stress a point beyond which the effect of the show was ridiculously marginal apparently wasn't important enough to warrant discussion.

You do this a lot. I think you should think a little harder the next time.

 

[soxhop411]

 
 
Angels outfielder Josh Hamilton, who in February admitted to relapsing and abusing drugs and alcohol, may never play for Los Angeles again and could be gone from the team in a matter of days, according to an industry source.

http://www.si.com/mlb/2015/04/24/josh-hamilton-leaving-los-angeles-angels

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

http://www.si.com/mlb/2015/04/24/josh-hamilton-leaving-los-angeles-angels

 
Red Sox!!! /cafardo

 

[mauidano]

And that it was "pure ego" on her part to pursue the show, and that he should therefore start the divorce proceedings, and that she is the one likely causing additional stress.

You know, by being on a reality show. The qurstion of whether the decision to play baseball before millions of fans for millions of dollars increases stress a point beyond which the effect of the show was ridiculously marginal apparently wasn't important enough to warrant discussion.

You do this a lot. I think you should think a little harder the next time.

You have no idea realistically of what went on behind closed doors in their relationship. No one really does. As mentioned earlier and often, a fight between the two of them precipitated the proceedings.  Again, you tend to compartmentalize to fit your perspective and speculate quite a bit about quite a lot.  We all offer up opinions here.  You don't "know".

 

[Average Reds]

I don't think there's any new information in that article.  Seems to be simply to be context for SI to bring in a legal analyst to discuss the possibility that the Angels will try to void the contract.  (Which they almost certainly will not try.)

 

[soxhop411]

Ken Rosenthal ‏@Ken_Rosenthal  4m4 minutes ago
Sources: #Angels close to parting with Hamilton. First reported: http://SI.com .

 

[soxhop411]

Ken Rosenthal ‏@Ken_Rosenthal  28s28 seconds ago
Sources: Hamilton resolution involves trade. Entire scenario could still fall apart, but agreement close.

 

[MentalDisabldLst]

maybe the Dodgers can send them Crawford.

 

[RedOctober3829]

Rangers are close to trading for Hamilton.
 
 

TR Sullivan ‏@Sullivan_Ranger  26s26 seconds ago
Rangers are close to trading for Josh Hamilton.... still a lot of legal work to be done... likely announced on Mondat sources say
 

 

[soxhop411]

@Sullivan_Ranger: Rangers are close to trading for Josh Hamilton. still a lot of legal work to be done likely announced on Mondat sources say

 

[jimbobim]

Jeff Passan ‏@JeffPassan  17s17 seconds ago
Source: Angels deep into discussions with Texas Rangers on trade for Josh Hamilton. Still lots left to do, but that's expected destination.

 

[LuckyBen]

Choo for Hamilton? Be a hell of a gamble for both teams

 

[jimbobim]

Jon Morosi ‏@jonmorosi  2m2 minutes ago
Josh Hamilton trade is materially a "baseball transaction," according to a source with knowledge of talks. Involves players and money.
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[nattysez]

Choo's got $102mm left on his deal AFTER this season (paid $14 this year) -- Hamilton has "only" $66 left after this year (paid $25 this year).  The Angels would have to get something else to take on that Choo deal.  
 
Edit:  Now there are reports that Texas would only want Hamilton after a buyout, so I'm not sure what's really going on.
 
Edit #2:  No Choo.  Also, there are a few reports that the DBacks tried to trade for Hamilton and he blocked the deal.
 

 

 

 

Bill Shaikin

Source: If Hamilton deal to Texas is done, Choo is not coming to Angels.
 

 

[soxhop411]

Bill Shaikin ‏@BillShaikin  1m1 minute ago
Source: If Hamilton deal to Texas is done, Choo is not coming to Angels.

 

[Bigpupp]

The Ranger fans I know really well really did not take it well when Hamilton left to the Angels. It's going to be pretty interesting to see the comments of him coming back.