Wonder if it includes Andrelton Simmons of the Twins.
View: https://twitter.com/Andrelton/status/1375504270452260869
Andrelton Simmons to refuse COVID-19 vaccine
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View: https://twitter.com/Andrelton/status/1375504270452260869
Simmons has apparently gone full Kyrie and is a full on conspiracy theorist these days.
Beyond that tho, the league should just say, no vaccine, no playing. And the union should support that.
I imagine there's nothing in the CBA or the union agreement about vaccinations in a general sense. I do wonder if the COVID protocol stuff (testing regimens, masking/distancing policies, etc) includes something about vaccinations. Maybe something along the lines of a certain percentage of players needing to be fully vaccinated before some/all of those protocols and restrictions go away. Gotta wonder how long a player can hold out refusing the vaccine if he's standing in the way of he and his teammates being allowed to go out to dinner or leaving the team hotel on road trips.
I know my company looked into mandatory vaccines and found you couldn’t do it for a EUA. I am sure the MLBPA would insist on significant compensation for agreeing to something “invasive” like a vaccine, and even then there would have to be some allowance for opt outs like last year
The problem, as I understand it, is that the vaccine has only been approved for emergency use. That makes it a lot harder to mandate, like you could with a fully vetted and approved vaccine (but that takes years).
To the understandable chagrin of his teammates, Simmons opted out as soon as the Angels were mathematically eliminated from the playoffs last year. Perhaps some explaining WOULD make sense, at least to the guys he’s currently playing with.
This legal conclusion has been repeated so often that it’s becoming conventional wisdom, but I’ve never seen a cite to an authoritative source that says it’s true. Meanwhile, EEOC has said that employers can require COVID vaccines so long as there are medical and religious exemptions.
https://www.natlawreview.com/article/eeoc-says-employers-may-mandate-covid-19-vaccinations-subject-to-limitations
For sure, there are federal and state laws that are outside the purview of EEOC, but I think anyone saying that mandatory vaccination is legally impermissible when the EEOC has said the opposite needs to show their work.
That said, the EUA status of the vaccines is a big reason why I don’t think many unions will agree to mandatory vaccination (in situations where union approval is needed), and I certainly don’t think MLBPA will be an exception.
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Agreed, they absolutely should.
This is putting all players at risk, and, for fans, at least for me (in Minnesota), questioning going to any games at all.
Thanks for the breakout to the new thread, I had debated creating one, I apologize for the hijack.
The visuals are bad but you have to know that he's not the only MLB player taking this stand. There is a percentage of MLB players reflective of society who won't take it for whatever reason, political, religious, or just fucking assholes. For example, JD Martinez is a staunch Trump supporter. What's his take?
They could pull a M*A*S*H (film) and inject him like they did SuperBug, although that is an easier get in football than baseball
I'm not sure where I am on mandating it, but if a player is going to announce that he's not getting it, then I think he has an obligation to explain it.
His attitude echos an alarming number of young people I've encountered. To some extent I understand(and remember) the ten feet tall and bullet proof mentality, but when your actions endanger the population at large, and poses a genuine threat to the multi-billion dollar business you work in, that goes out the window. And if it's based on insane, unsupported conspiracy theories, even worse. Mandating it seems very doubtful from a legal standpoint, but I wonder if a COVID exemption list is a possibility. You get paid, but you don't suite up until you agree to get it, and you are barred from all team facilities and activities. Ratchet up the internal and peer pressure from teammates, and if nothing else, keep him from infecting anyone else and causing game postponements. I also think taking the stage away from a professional athlete is a big hit.
Unfortunately, the people that need to speak out are guys like Eduardo Rodriguez who have had it and know it’s notthing to trifle with.
It sucks that the ones to have to go out on a limb here are people who have already sacrificed. But it is what it is.
The league can’t be wishy washy here. They need to say, “Our first priority is the health of our players. This is not about what any one of us feels – it’s a shared responsibility. The more of us that take the vaccine, the safer we all are and the sooner the game we all love can go back to normal.”
It’s really that simple.
It sucks that the ones to have to go out on a limb here are people who have already sacrificed. But it is what it is.
The league can’t be wishy washy here. They need to say, “Our first priority is the health of our players. This is not about what any one of us feels – it’s a shared responsibility. The more of us that take the vaccine, the safer we all are and the sooner the game we all love can go back to normal.”
It’s really that simple.
Why? If he doesn’t want it, why should he have to take it? He’s not saying others should not take it - just that he isn’t going to.
It’s not even mandated in health care settings, so there is literally a 0% chance that MLB is going to mandate it.
I think he should explain himself solely because he saw fit to make a spectacle of himself saying he won't take it.
If he doesn't want to take it, fine. He's an asshole but he can't be forced so whatever. He can elect to skip it when it's made available to him and quietly move on. But preemptively tweeting like he did when no one was really asking (he can claim people were asking, but "no comment" is a reasonable response to them), it's a further dick move to then say "don't ask me to explain."
I disagree. I do think as many people as possible should get it, but he may well have a valid medical reason for refusing to take the vaccine and we don’t have a right to know this.
I don’t know what prompted him to post, but I still disagree. It’s really no one’s business as to why he chooses to take or not take a vaccine.
Are you crazy? Of course we have a right to know ... we're on the internet, dammit
Or Freddie Freeman, his former teammate with the Braves who had real problems with COVID.
I’ve seen this article. The author’s failure even to mention the EEOC guidance, if only to wonder why the agency took a position contradicted by federal law, tells you that he hasn’t thought this through, and should not be taken seriously. And sure enough, a quick Google turns up that the author is a random plaintiff-side litigator with no obviously relevant expertise. But he has done a hell of a job raising his profile.
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Conversely, EUAs get only a very brief mention in the EEOC guidance.
Hey, he may be a self-promoter, but his is hardly the only voice on this. For example, there's this piece.
Does say "due to past experience" - could be he has some sort of reaction or fear of anaphylaxis. Vasovagal syncope - which some may chalk up to being "weak"?
I'm fine getting shots, as in vaccines. But I struggle having blood drawn, to the point that I pass out. Some people have it with ANY needle. Last time I had blood drawn, I was out cold for 20 minutes. My BP dropped suddenly from 110/80 to 80/55.
Vasovagal syncope - Symptoms and causes - Mayo Clinic
Yes, it's essentially being "triggered", on a physiological level. For me, it's not the needles, or even the blood. It's the "tampering" with the circulatory system. Like being told to "keep pressure on it" induces full on panic. If someone was avoiding the vaccine because of a reason like this, I would not fault them. It's a horrendous experience to go through. I'd rather have COVID than deal with vasovagal syncope. I'd rather break my damn leg.
I'm fine getting shots, as in vaccines. But I struggle having blood drawn, to the point that I pass out. Some people have it with ANY needle. Last time I had blood drawn, I was out cold for 20 minutes. My BP dropped suddenly from 110/80 to 80/55.
Vasovagal syncope - Symptoms and causes - Mayo Clinic
Yes, it's essentially being "triggered", on a physiological level. For me, it's not the needles, or even the blood. It's the "tampering" with the circulatory system. Like being told to "keep pressure on it" induces full on panic. If someone was avoiding the vaccine because of a reason like this, I would not fault them. It's a horrendous experience to go through. I'd rather have COVID than deal with vasovagal syncope. I'd rather break my damn leg.
Thanks. This is a much better article.
It’s pretty clear that no one knows what the relevant FD&C Act language means. But I think it’s a stretch to say it constrains the actions of private employers that aren’t regulated by the Act. I don’t think it’s likely that a court will rule that this ambiguous language imposes a restriction on all employers, private and public, despite the absence of any legislative history suggesting this was intended, and in the face of contrary guidance from a federal agency (albeit not the agency charged with interpreting this particular statute).
Are you really worried about getting Covid from the shortstop if you attend a major league ballgame?
No, I'm worried about him spreading it to any of the 10,000+ people that he's around and me contracting it from one of them.
Or the ~810,000 times he'll be around people in the city where I live.
If Simmons plays another 2118 consecutive games, he could, at age 45, spread the virus to all the children in the front row of the stands sometime in mid-April 2034.
The CDC doesn’t even know the vaccine does anything to reduce spreading it. At this point they only know that it benefits the person who is vaccinated.
i want as many people as possible to get it but there are people that for some reason or other won’t end up vaccinated. You’re going to come in contact with those people walking down the street of your city regardless of whether Simmons gets vaccinated.
You could be right but I suspect that's not the case and he just wanted to announce to the world that he's a malicious idiot. Reading that Tweet I can't help but assume he's anti-vax and would prefer others not be vaccinated. And anyone who can't receive the vaccine needs as many people around them vaccinated as possible.
Doing some quick research, it looks like the issue is in a grey area, which likely means that most employers are not going to mandate it (as opposed to providing incentives to do so, which several are).
In addition to what has been posted, here's another con article: https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=e8cb7bd6-3948-4793-aa34-1d210f3ade7c
And on the other side, here's a pro article: https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/the-covid-19-vaccine-is-here-can-90482/
ANd another pro article: https://blog.petrieflom.law.harvard.edu/2021/02/24/employer-mandate-covid-vaccine-eua/
Interesting issue.
Until he went and bragged about it, I agree.
Because I have such a dim view of my fellow man, my guess is that he announced it because he wants to provoke a reaction and then claim victimhood.
This isn't an abstract question about privacy.
The issue here is that once he decided to make his anti-vaccine stance public, his opinion entered the public domain. And if he thinks he can put that out there and not have anyone question him about it, he is sorely mistaken.
I dont think anyone said people cant question him. Just that he doesnt owe them answers.
He says people had asked questions and requested he take the vaccine. He issued a blanket statement, presumably, to not have to keep answering those questions or requests anymore. Doing so opened him up to further questioning. It's now his choice if he'd like to respond or not.
It feels to me like people here feel they're owed an explanation, not because they actually deserve one (you dont), but because they want him to confirm 100% hes just anti-vax and a huge piece of shit. If I were him, i wouldn't expound on the issue any further either.
I'm not owed anything and that's not what I'm saying in any case.
I'm pushing back against the idea that it's nobody's business. Which is true until he puts out a public statement.
I don't give a damn whether he answers or not, but his statement requesting privacy is meant to shield him from scrutiny and that's nonsense.
I'm pushing back against the idea that it's nobody's business. Which is true until he puts out a public statement.
I don't give a damn whether he answers or not, but his statement requesting privacy is meant to shield him from scrutiny and that's nonsense.
Why?
"People keep asking me if I'm getting the vaccine. The answer is no. I dont owe you an explanation why, I'm just not. Stop asking me about it."
Putting out a public statement does not open him up for interrogation. He was asked a question, he answered it. He doesnt need to proceed into anyone rabbit holes because they arent satisfied with his answer.
IMO, people who make public comments about their refusal to vaccinate in the midst of a public health crisis need to be prepared to answer for their decision. I also disagree pretty strongly that when a public figure puts out a public statement it does not open him up for additional questions. (And, again, he's under no obligation to answer them. See Carlton, Steve.)
It's clear we don't agree and I'm fine with that.
Edit: I should make clear that I'm not trying to end the discussion and so let me apologize for my clumsy phrasing. There's nothing wrong with the discussion or any of the comments I responded to. I'm withdrawing from the topic because I have strong views and I don't want to drag the thread off topic.
It's clear we don't agree and I'm fine with that.
Edit: I should make clear that I'm not trying to end the discussion and so let me apologize for my clumsy phrasing. There's nothing wrong with the discussion or any of the comments I responded to. I'm withdrawing from the topic because I have strong views and I don't want to drag the thread off topic.
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I don't think I'm owed an explanation, but I think he's a complete piece of shit for not providing any further discussion or context.
Anyone who uses a public platform and has amassed 100k followers who promotes an anti-vax message and then turtles in the midst of a pandemic where lives depend on as many people getting vaccinated as possible in an asshole. The question of what's owed or not owed is beside the point. The point is that if you're going to throw that out there with the bullshit pretext that you have been getting asked, and then refuse to say more, you're a jerk and should be treated as such.
Discussion is important in this context, because if the answer is "because the Martians told me not to," that would be a nice thing for his 100k followers to know.
Again, I'm not owed anything. Again, fuck him.
Anyone who uses a public platform and has amassed 100k followers who promotes an anti-vax message and then turtles in the midst of a pandemic where lives depend on as many people getting vaccinated as possible in an asshole. The question of what's owed or not owed is beside the point. The point is that if you're going to throw that out there with the bullshit pretext that you have been getting asked, and then refuse to say more, you're a jerk and should be treated as such.
Discussion is important in this context, because if the answer is "because the Martians told me not to," that would be a nice thing for his 100k followers to know.
Again, I'm not owed anything. Again, fuck him.
But this was kind of my point. This guy isn't a politician that can sway decisions around the Covid vaccine. If he was a politician, I'd absolutely agree with the majority of posts in this thread. He would OWE us an explanation, because how he got to his conclusion is important when deciding if this person should be representing large groups of people.
But he's not. He's a (most likely) uninformed athlete. Out of his 100K followers, how many do we think are forming their opinion about the vaccine based on Andrelton Fucking Simmons? Is there even one person? If this was a preacher at one of those monster churches and he had his claws into the psyche of a bunch of people? Sure. Yes. I'd understand the vitriol.
And, again, I'm not anti-vax. I wasn't before Covid and I'm not now. My MIL has recurring ovarian cancer and she just started her chemo again. Thankfully, she was able to get the vaccine. But if that weren't the case - which for some cancer patients, is unfortunately true - and she couldn't get the vaccine, how many people would she encounter that did get the vaccine and now are lax on social distancing, hand sanitizing, masks, etc? For the majority of socially responsible middle-aged (or younger) people, the concern was always, "I'm not worried about myself, but I don't want to get my elderly/sick/immunocompromised/etc relative sick." Well, after the vaccine, we still have no idea if they can be carriers. But a whole lot of people are certainly acting like they arent. Which could very well make things significantly WORSE for the people we all are trying to protect. Because now the Ted Cruz's of the world get to stand on their pedestals and say, "I got your fucking vaccine! I'm done with masks!"
All of this is to say: nobody gives a fuck what Andrelton Simmons thinks about Covid. Not you, not me, not his 100K twitter followers. They just want to be able to confirm that he's an anti-vaxx asshole. And while they're probably right, the inability to hear his reasons directly from him (and either mock or crucify him) pisses people off. And I'm not even saying that's the wrong reaction. It's perfectly acceptable. I'm just not sure why people are trying to justify a visceral reaction. (Theres probably a tie in here to #CancelCulture, but this is neither the place nor am I smart enough to make it).
Simmons isn't getting the vaccine. He's an asshole.
Thats what it boils down to for people. Just say it. You're probably not even wrong.
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My 2nd hand understanding from my partner/expert is that this is correct -- given the emergency approval, it can't be mandated. (I agree it should be -- Simmons can take a seat if he doesn't like it).
I hope this is right but really I think this is the only part that we are really disagreeing about. I can't know for sure, obviously. But I think every voice in the chorus matters. These things hit a critical mass. I think every public statement like this by a famous person adds to the problem.
Though it's probably right to ask if anyone would even pay attention if it weren't for the shaming. But I guess on balance the shaming probably helps in that those who otherwise would feel compelled to do the same might eventually just decide it's not worth it and be quiet.
But in general I think it's easy to miss how uninformed some people are about all this stuff. They are leading their lives and making decisions on low information. In Arizona, the Governor recently lifted the state mask mandate. I had to go to the hardware store this weekend and like half the people there weren't wearing masks. My first instinct is to think "assholes." But I think there's something different going on, at least for some of these people. I think they are very low information. The hear "mask mandate lifted" and they think simply that the government is telling them you don't need masks any more. There is no deeper analysis than that. Not bad people. Not even stupid people. So, yeah, I'm less optimistic that statements like Simmons' don't matter.
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