Analysis of Celtics Games, '21-'22 Season

Fishy1

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After Marcus picked GH's pocket, GH didn't want to bring the ball up again. I suppose Marcus did that to him a few times in practice.

Speaking of Marcus, just checked the stats. Yes he's shooting awfully but he's average 12.8 shots per 100 possessions, which would be the second lowest of his career (lowest was the 12.4 shots per 100 he took in 2018-19). Most of his shots are 3Ps (9.3 per 100 possessions, 2nd highest in his career) and by memory, a lot of them are open catch and shoot 3Ps which he more or less has to take.

I think he'll shoot better (he can hardly shoot worse) but I don't think he's playing terrible - other than one bad stretch in the NYK game.
His defense really came together at the end of the game -- and I think that's what matters -- but there were stretches out there last night where he was looking out of it and slow. He apparently had a migraine last night, so he gets a pass for that, I guess. Obviously his shooting will improve. 27.5% from the field is hardly sustainable ;)

Other things of note: Schroder averaging 6.3 assists, team averaging 27 (good for sixth in the league), but also averaging 16.8 TO (good for 24th). Last couple of nights they've protected the ball a lot better. Tatum has obviously been ridiculous, most encouraging is the assists, though. Eight last night and just the one turnover. Handle looks quite loose a lot of the time, but he's pirouetting all over the floor to avoid pick-pockets and worked really well against Charlotte. I saw him do about six spin moves on one possession just to bring the ball up the floor.

I liked the Jabari minutes last night. Thought he was good enough on defense, forcing turnaround jumpers mostly, to justify his offense. The threes were falling, but it seemed like the shot just looks better than last year -- anyone else notice the same? Him and Grant give the team a couple of different back-up looks when everyone is healthy. Hope he plays more.

Richardson continues to be invisible out there. Has a few good defensive possessions each game and then baffling lapses, including a terribly ill-advised double-team last night that led to an open dunk and had him putting his own head in his hands. Hope he gets it together soon, as we could use his slashing and his defense.

The Hornets are really, really fun, in other news. Bridges and Ball are human highlight reels.
 
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Jimbodandy

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I think the benefit of having DS play during crunch time is it gives the team a third ball handler and pushes Marcus down a rung so the ball tends to “find” him less which makes it less likely he hoists an ill advised shot. It’s sort of like when the bubble team had Hayward and Marcus played the defensive Swiss Army knife role. In an ideal world, the third ball handler would be someone more like Hayward (an offensive Swiss Army knife?), which I think is why some see Romeo as a future crunch time option. But for now Schroeder is the best option for that role, and he seems to be getting a lot more comfortable, so it may end up working quite well for this year.
Yeah. I think that Schroder will be fine as long as long as Ime doesn't send him out there with other guys who don't get the plan on defense. And I'm pretty sure that Jabari and Aaron aren't in the closing lineup. Pritchard probably never either, absent a bunch of injuries.

I like the ballhandling and aggression that DS brings. And he's not bad defensively on ball. If he's the worst defender on the floor, we're fine. It's those stretches in the middle of the game that drive me nuts. I'll have to learn to deal with it lol.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Me too. It's terrible, and we haven't played a bunch of juggernauts either.
I haven't seen every minute but I'm seeing that same mix of camping inside the 3pt line, allowing the ball handler to do whatever he wants to initiate offense, not rotating fast enough, and general floating that we saw a lot last year. They've been dealing with different lineups in the early going so maybe with some more consistency they can pull it together.
 

Cellar-Door

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Me too. It's terrible, and we haven't played a bunch of juggernauts either.
It's early for on/offs, but the one good thing is.....
Our top 6: Horford/TL/Tatum/Smart/Brown/Schroder all have strong on/off defensive numbers, and splits that would put us as a pretty good defense (elite when Horford is on the floor).
The rest of the team is an apocalypse.

Looking at lineups, the best defensive lineup is the 2 big starters (with Smart at PG) but it has been horrific on offense so far in limited minutes.
A starting 5 without Horford and with Schroder is strong on both ends, but presumably kills the bench since Pritchard at PG has been an unmitigated disaster so far.

Edit- the non-Smart 2 bigs starting 5 potential lineup hasn't played a minute. The 2 bigs, tatum, both PG lineup crushed, but as with the other Schroder/Smart lineups seems unlikely.
 

Jimbodandy

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I haven't seen every minute but I'm seeing that same mix of camping inside the 3pt line, allowing the ball handler to do whatever he wants to initiate offense, not rotating fast enough, and general floating that we saw a lot last year. They've been dealing with different lineups in the early going so maybe with some more consistency they can pull it together.
Bad rotations leaving open 3s and terrible transition defense IMO. Overhelping too, particularly TL.

It's early for on/offs, but the one good thing is.....
Our top 6: Horford/TL/Tatum/Smart/Brown/Schroder all have strong on/off defensive numbers, and splits that would put us as a pretty good defense (elite when Horford is on the floor).
The rest of the team is an apocalypse.
Overall that seems right. When we go to our bench, the wheels fall off. Remains to be seen how much of that is just the physical limitations of the bench guys and how much is lack of reps. If the latter, it should improve over time. I expect some.

To my eyes, Grant has been solid too.
 

Cellar-Door

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Bad rotations leaving open 3s and terrible transition defense IMO.



Overall that seems right. When we go to our bench, the wheels fall off. Remains to be seen how much of that is just the physical limitations of the bench guys and how much is lack of reps. If the latter, it should improve over time. I expect some.

To my eyes, Grant has been solid too.
on/offs hate Grant and Richardson less than most of the bench, each have a -12 for defense.

For lineups, Grant as the starter with Smart/Brown/Tatum/TL was pretty good, as was that same group with Horford instead of TL, and Horford/Tatum/Smart/Schroder.
Any time any of the other bench guys got involved it was bad.

Richardson isn't worth breaking out lineups because he only has 1 with over 5 minutes and it was PP, Grant, Tatum, Jabari which as you might guess got murdered on defense.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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It's early for on/offs, but the one good thing is.....
Our top 6: Horford/TL/Tatum/Smart/Brown/Schroder all have strong on/off defensive numbers, and splits that would put us as a pretty good defense (elite when Horford is on the floor).
The rest of the team is an apocalypse.

Looking at lineups, the best defensive lineup is the 2 big starters (with Smart at PG) but it has been horrific on offense so far in limited minutes.
A starting 5 without Horford and with Schroder is strong on both ends, but presumably kills the bench since Pritchard at PG has been an unmitigated disaster so far.

Edit- the non-Smart 2 bigs starting 5 potential lineup hasn't played a minute. The 2 bigs, tatum, both PG lineup crushed, but as with the other Schroder/Smart lineups seems unlikely.
The defensive numbers are obviously skewed by NYK and TOR. TOR was so bad I assume it's going to take a while to normalize.

Again, didn't see whole game (will watch it later tonight) but defense in 4Q and OT looked pretty good to me. I know people don't like the switch everything defense - as does Kenyon Martin :) - but if anyone has the personnel to play it, it's BOS. They do need - as mentioned several times on the broadcast - clean-up the ballhandler shooting immediately off a screen play that Fournier and CHA hit a bunch of 3Ps but other than that, they have long, athletic, and willing defenders at every position and Smart being able to guard big guys inside really helps.

My totally WAG prediction is that the switch everything defense is going to help Jabari play defense and he's going to start getting more minutes as the 2nd unit big as it will cover up some of his lack of lateral quickness. Hopefully he can bring most of the rebounding that Kanter would bring plus some offensive playmaking that the second unit really needs.
 

Fishy1

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They've faced three excellent three point shooting teams in the Knicks, Hornets, and Rockets, who are all top ten so far, and one abysmal team in Toronto.

My eye test tells me the rotations have been bad, with a lot of blown assignments and late rotations to open shooters... and so does everyone elses.

Nonetheless! 2-2 so far, and could have been 3-1, and given that three games were on the road, one was back-to-back, and two were overtime... that's pretty good to me.
 

Jimbodandy

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The defensive numbers are obviously skewed by NYK and TOR. TOR was so bad I assume it's going to take a while to normalize.

Again, didn't see whole game (will watch it later tonight) but defense in 4Q and OT looked pretty good to me. I know people don't like the switch everything defense - as does Kenyon Martin :) -
SSS this early of course. Also lots of new players and a new coach. We'll know more in a couple of weeks. Defense in 4Q and OT looked better to me too, but I think that's largely because crunch time lineups don't include 2+ bad defenders. When Tatum, Brown, Smart, and Al are on the floor, it doesn't matter much who the fifth guy is. Swap out TL for Al, and it's still not bad.
 

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Jimbodandy

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Yes Yes and more Yes!! The ball needs to be in Tatum’s hands to create his own shot or find others when he’s drawing multiple defenders. Enough of ball movement that forces inferior players to make decisions with the ball and more of that player being Tatum. He can be LeBron Lite in his prime with his offensive skill set.
Yeah he really reminds me of Bird sometimes, although the vision isn't there yet obviously. He can shoot over almost everyone, and his turnaround is basically unblockable. He can threaten at every spot on the floor, and you have to double him. This leaves guys open, and he's tall and skilled enough to find them.
 

benhogan

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Tatum will be terrorizing defense with his passes by January.
Tatum downloads. Stumbles. Studies. Learns. Improves. and finally Masters at a very high level.

ALSO +/- over 20 games tells you very little, less so over 4 games.

as far as the defense, the team is still learning and adjusting to Ime's system and playing with each other. Dennis, Horford, JRich are all new to the team, they are even more confused than the rest. Give the defense time and adjustment. I see Schroder playing a much bigger role here than was originally envisioned. Absolute steal of a signing
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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SSS this early of course. Also lots of new players and a new coach. We'll know more in a couple of weeks. Defense in 4Q and OT looked better to me too, but I think that's largely because crunch time lineups don't include 2+ bad defenders. When Tatum, Brown, Smart, and Al are on the floor, it doesn't matter much who the fifth guy is. Swap out TL for Al, and it's still not bad.
You can go further down the bench with this. As you mention, Al, TL, JT, JB, and MS all can be plus-defenders. DS is a good defender for a PG and has good hands. JRich is reputed to be a plus defender. RL is a plus defender vs 1-3 and some 4s. GW is a versatile defender. Other than PP (who is 7th in minutes played), the other 9 of the top 10 in minutes played are good to great defenders.

Probably the only lineup that Ime ran out in the first four games that isn't competitive defensively was the smurf line-up he ran against TOR, and I thinking that Ime was trying to spread out TOR and get them to downsize. That didn't work very well.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Yeah he really reminds me of Bird sometimes, although the vision isn't there yet obviously. He can shoot over almost everyone, and his turnaround is basically unblockable. He can threaten at every spot on the floor, and you have to double him. This leaves guys open, and he's tall and skilled enough to find them.
Improving his ability to recognize double teams is a more subtle skill than, say, getting to the line more, but will be a huge development. In the 2nd half alone I saw this lead to several absolutely wide open looks off the initial pass and probably a few more that would have been hockey assists. This also creates situations where the decision making becomes really easy for everyone else on the floor and the ball movement is uncomplicated—be ready to shoot or swing it to the open man. Jaylen will be swimming in open corner threes.
 

benhogan

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Improving his ability to recognize double teams is a more subtle skill than, say, getting to the line more, but will be a huge development. In the 2nd half alone I saw this lead to several absolutely wide open looks off the initial pass and probably a few more that would have been hockey assists. This also creates situations where the decision making becomes really easy for everyone else on the floor and the ball movement is uncomplicated—be ready to shoot or swing it to the open man. Jaylen will be swimming in open corner threes.
Tatum/Brown can each pick up 2-3 apg from wide-open corner 3's alone when defenders are drawn into the paint to stop them.

Tatum/Brown going downhill from the top will be unstoppable by next season
 

Eddie Jurak

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Improving his ability to recognize double teams is a more subtle skill than, say, getting to the line more, but will be a huge development. In the 2nd half alone I saw this lead to several absolutely wide open looks off the initial pass and probably a few more that would have been hockey assists. This also creates situations where the decision making becomes really easy for everyone else on the floor and the ball movement is uncomplicated—be ready to shoot or swing it to the open man. Jaylen will be swimming in open corner threes.
This is a big part of why I am on Team Marcus as PG. Ultimately I think a lot of offense will run through Tatum, some can run through Horford and Rob, so it is less important to have a true PG on the floor for offense. And if switching is going to be a key part of the defense, having Marcus is better. Last year teams hunted Kemba and Pritichard.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Man I would love to find somebody with as much blind faith in me as this board has in Romeo. Guy has had maybe one good game cumulatively in his life is perhaps our crunch time guy.

Man Lars Anderson is jealous
It's incredibly early, but Nesmith isn't off to a great 2nd year either, PP has stalled.
Grant Williams looks a bit better than last year though.
 

benhogan

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Good stuff from Jared. the Athletic is a very worthwhile subscription. It will have in-depth coverage of not only the C's but all your pro/college teams.

https://theathletic.com/2913525/2021/10/26/five-thoughts-on-the-jayson-tatums-big-night-as-celtics-beat-hornets-in-ot/

Ime Udoka is trying to figure out how to make this an intimidating defensive team. It has to start with perimeter ball pressure, and ironically that is actually being hampered by the switch. Boston has not been switching up a lot, where the defender picking up the ball is going to get on top of the screen to force the ballhandler to protect the ball and slow down.

The risk of course is that a good dribbler can blow by and break through to the paint, so the Celtics are going underneath a bit on their switches to play it safe. That general approach is leading to a lot of lax energy, and at times, the team starts getting bull-rushed and has a hard time getting out of scramble mode. Dennis Schroder and Jabari Parker were the primary culprits Monday night, with Parker often trying to do too much and ending up in the wrong spot and Schroder getting lost after escaping a mismatch and having to figure out where to go from there.

So with the transition defense already being disappointing and some of these other concerns, Udoka made two notable adjustments ahead of crunch time. He called for a three-quarter court press, with Marcus Smart, Schroder, and Brown getting up above the half-court line to force the Hornets to have to push the ball into the frontcourt. The main reason to do this was to knock Charlotte off its rhythm and screw up the timing of its plays, and ideally to force the ball out of the point guard’s hands.

This left the Hornets running plays with the shot clock halfway depleted, leaving them only one chance to make a set work before having to get into iso mode. It was backfiring at first, which resulted in Jalen McDaniels getting two wide-open 3s because the Celtics didn’t rotate properly, a Brown foul on McDaniels trying to press, and a Mason Plumlee dunk when Smart and Schroder loosely trapped Ball in the backcourt and he lobbed it over them. Smart was somehow able to sprint back 60 feet and almost picked off the pass to Plumlee under the rim.

The Celtics won this game because Smart (and Schroder a bit) made some clutch defensive plays to get Boston on the break, so this at least was an affirmation of the importance of high ball pressure.

3. A consequence of the switching scheme is Rob Williams spending a lot of time in one-on-one matchups against shooters. To his credit, word has gotten around the league that he can actually block a jumper, which is rare. You can see most opponents who have him squared are more concerned with getting into their pull-up shot than trying to drive by him.

It was interesting to see how Boston varied Williams’ coverages based on Charlotte personnel in the pick-and-roll. Williams was in switch coverage most of the night, so Udoka put Smart on Plumlee so that Charlotte couldn’t start every play getting Williams switched onto Ball or Gordon Hayward. They would vary it by possession in crunch time, and Boston was actually in traditional drop coverage on Hayward pick-and-rolls.

But Williams spent most of the fourth quarter on Ball at the left elbow, and it was the usual from Williams: a flurry of brilliance, frustration and subtle things to improve upon. His reach is just dangerous enough that he is taking everyone he guards out of their comfort zone a bit when he’s on an island. Ball wasn’t going into the same pull-ups he was taking against everyone else, and Williams actually stayed in front of him on a few drives before fouling because he needlessly swiped or took the wrong angle on his last stride of the drive.

Williams’ discipline not to leave his feet on head fakes is improving, but he still is getting fooled just enough that he gets out of his stance and the opponent can drive by him. His recovery ability is impressive, but he still commits too many fouls at that point. He also still is going too hard at times, like when Ball missed with just under two minutes left and he tried to save it as it was tumbling out of bounds even though it was about to be Celtics ball. If the Hornets were paying better attention, they could have picked it off for an easy layup.

But then balance that out with his phenomenal rebounding on both ends in the fourth quarter and the incredible alley-oop he caught from Tatum late in the game and it certainly all evens out. He had a career-high 16 rebounds and just completely outplayed Plumlee. It was an all-over-the-place night for Williams, per usual. But it was clearly a net positive and another step in the right direction.
 

Cesar Crespo

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After COVID last year, Romeo went from back of the bench to playing heavy minutes against Brooklyn to being a rotation mainstay this year. The "blind faith" people (which is hugely disrespectful to their analysis) have so far had a much better track record with him than the "hurr durr pointz" people.

Health is a serious question, obviously, and I would need to see a lot more from his 3-point shot. But people are acting like he's a 12th man, and that's simply wrong.

Calling him a rotation mainstay this year? Based on what?

And last year was due to injuries.

There's been a total of 4 games and he's missed 2. We don't know if he's a rotation player. You are the one making all kinds of assumptions based off preseason and 4 regular season games. Hell, even if he is a rotation player, there's a chance you can't rely on him to be healthy so it does no good.
 

reggiecleveland

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Improving his ability to recognize double teams is a more subtle skill than, say, getting to the line more, but will be a huge development. In the 2nd half alone I saw this lead to several absolutely wide open looks off the initial pass and probably a few more that would have been hockey assists. This also creates situations where the decision making becomes really easy for everyone else on the floor and the ball movement is uncomplicated—be ready to shoot or swing it to the open man. Jaylen will be swimming in open corner threes.
The change they made was that Smart was not the guy getting the ball out of the double. Smart is still an end-of-game guy (drew key offensive foul), so far, but I liked the clear decision that DS initiated and the ball came out of the double to DS who found Brown for the big 3, and swung it to Marcus who also found Brown. Denn is playing nice wanting to pass first. I have "nice win rose colored glasses," but Smart not taking the shot after Tatum was doubled in OT I hope was a bit of the new Sherriff in town. I would hope Marcus knows him taking the shot after the double is exactly what the other team wants. Have to remember Al was not there too. TL took care of business down the stretch. Will they sit Al next crunch time?
 

RorschachsMask

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Tatum’s time of possession and dribbling numbers have slightly corrected, but it’s still night and day from last year. Last year he dribbled the ball 3-7+ times almost 49% of the time, this year it’s at 37%. Last year he held the ball for 2-6 seconds 50% of the time, and 6+ seconds 28% of the time, this year it’s 2-6 seconds of possession 39% of the time, and for 6+ seconds 25% of the time. Last year he had the ball for two seconds or less 21% of the time, through four games this year he’s at 37%.

Again, these numbers don’t meant a ton yet, but give a very clear indication of what they’re going for. Ime has gotten them to buy into the ball movement offense quicker than I had expected. Also, to make Tatum’s life a bit easier, he’s at 5 catch and shoot threes a game so far, and shooting 45% on them. Last year he took 1.9 of them, and 2.4 the year before. Once he starts hitting his step backs like he has the last two season (36% and 41%) as opposed to the 23% he’s at right now, it’s lights out for other defenses.
 
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Cesar Crespo

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Tatum’s time of possession and dribbling numbers have slightly corrected, but it’s still night and day from last year. Last year he dribbled the ball 3-7+ times almost 49% of the time, this year it’s . Last year he held the ball for 2-6 seconds 50% of the time, and 6+ seconds 28% of the time. This year it’s 3-7+ dribbles 37% of the time, 2-6 seconds of possession 39% of the time, and 25% for 6+ seconds. Last year he had the ball for two seconds or less 21% of the time, through four games this year he’s at 37%.

Again, these numbers don’t meant a ton yet, but give a very clear indication of what they’re going for. Ime has gotten them to buy into the ball movement offense quicker than I had expected. Also, to make Tatum’s life a bit easier, he’s at 5 catch and shoot threes a game so far, and shooting 45% on them. Last year he took 1.9 of them, and 2.4 the year before. Once he starts hitting his step backs like he has the last two season (36% and 41%) as opposed to the 23% he’s at right now, it’s lights out for other defenses.
I bet some of it is just personal. Having a PG who is available to play every game helps.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Calling him a rotation mainstay this year? Based on what?

And last year was due to injuries.

There's been a total of 4 games and he's missed 2. We don't know if he's a rotation player. You are the one making all kinds of assumptions based off preseason and 4 regular season games. Hell, even if he is a rotation player, there's a chance you can't rely on him to be healthy so it does no good.
When most of us discuss Romeo, we note that there is a big difference between Romeo's abilities as a player and his health.

RL is playing 19.5 mpg, which is 8th on the team. When he's healthy, he's a rotational mainstay.

In my mind, health - not ability - is the biggest issue with RL. (In the AN vs RL thread, I mentioned that AN would probably get better statistical results over the year because he would play many more games.) Many people haven't come around on RL's abilities however, which is where the discussion almost always ends.
 

Jimbodandy

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Good stuff from Jared. the Athletic is a very worthwhile subscription. It will have in-depth coverage of not only the C's but all your pro/college teams.

https://theathletic.com/2913525/2021/10/26/five-thoughts-on-the-jayson-tatums-big-night-as-celtics-beat-hornets-in-ot/

Ime Udoka is trying to figure out how to make this an intimidating defensive team. It has to start with perimeter ball pressure, and ironically that is actually being hampered by the switch. Boston has not been switching up a lot, where the defender picking up the ball is going to get on top of the screen to force the ballhandler to protect the ball and slow down.

The risk of course is that a good dribbler can blow by and break through to the paint, so the Celtics are going underneath a bit on their switches to play it safe. That general approach is leading to a lot of lax energy, and at times, the team starts getting bull-rushed and has a hard time getting out of scramble mode. Dennis Schroder and Jabari Parker were the primary culprits Monday night, with Parker often trying to do too much and ending up in the wrong spot and Schroder getting lost after escaping a mismatch and having to figure out where to go from there.

So with the transition defense already being disappointing and some of these other concerns, Udoka made two notable adjustments ahead of crunch time. He called for a three-quarter court press, with Marcus Smart, Schroder, and Brown getting up above the half-court line to force the Hornets to have to push the ball into the frontcourt. The main reason to do this was to knock Charlotte off its rhythm and screw up the timing of its plays, and ideally to force the ball out of the point guard’s hands.

This left the Hornets running plays with the shot clock halfway depleted, leaving them only one chance to make a set work before having to get into iso mode. It was backfiring at first, which resulted in Jalen McDaniels getting two wide-open 3s because the Celtics didn’t rotate properly, a Brown foul on McDaniels trying to press, and a Mason Plumlee dunk when Smart and Schroder loosely trapped Ball in the backcourt and he lobbed it over them. Smart was somehow able to sprint back 60 feet and almost picked off the pass to Plumlee under the rim.

The Celtics won this game because Smart (and Schroder a bit) made some clutch defensive plays to get Boston on the break, so this at least was an affirmation of the importance of high ball pressure.

3. A consequence of the switching scheme is Rob Williams spending a lot of time in one-on-one matchups against shooters. To his credit, word has gotten around the league that he can actually block a jumper, which is rare. You can see most opponents who have him squared are more concerned with getting into their pull-up shot than trying to drive by him.

It was interesting to see how Boston varied Williams’ coverages based on Charlotte personnel in the pick-and-roll. Williams was in switch coverage most of the night, so Udoka put Smart on Plumlee so that Charlotte couldn’t start every play getting Williams switched onto Ball or Gordon Hayward. They would vary it by possession in crunch time, and Boston was actually in traditional drop coverage on Hayward pick-and-rolls.

But Williams spent most of the fourth quarter on Ball at the left elbow, and it was the usual from Williams: a flurry of brilliance, frustration and subtle things to improve upon. His reach is just dangerous enough that he is taking everyone he guards out of their comfort zone a bit when he’s on an island. Ball wasn’t going into the same pull-ups he was taking against everyone else, and Williams actually stayed in front of him on a few drives before fouling because he needlessly swiped or took the wrong angle on his last stride of the drive.

Williams’ discipline not to leave his feet on head fakes is improving, but he still is getting fooled just enough that he gets out of his stance and the opponent can drive by him. His recovery ability is impressive, but he still commits too many fouls at that point. He also still is going too hard at times, like when Ball missed with just under two minutes left and he tried to save it as it was tumbling out of bounds even though it was about to be Celtics ball. If the Hornets were paying better attention, they could have picked it off for an easy layup.

But then balance that out with his phenomenal rebounding on both ends in the fourth quarter and the incredible alley-oop he caught from Tatum late in the game and it certainly all evens out. He had a career-high 16 rebounds and just completely outplayed Plumlee. It was an all-over-the-place night for Williams, per usual. But it was clearly a net positive and another step in the right direction.
Man that writer has watched Rob Williams play ball. Fantastic.
 

Cesar Crespo

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When most of us discuss Romeo, we note that there is a big difference between Romeo's abilities as a player and his health.

RL is playing 19.5 mpg, which is 8th on the team. When he's healthy, he's a rotational mainstay.

In my mind, health - not ability - is the biggest issue with RL. (In the AN vs RL thread, I mentioned that AN would probably get better statistical results over the year because he would play many more games.) Many people haven't come around on RL's abilities however, which is where the discussion almost always ends.
So was Semi a rotational mainstay? I guess it's semantics on what a rotational mainstay is. I don't see him as a guy getting a 2nd contract from the Celtics and I don't see any of us missing him. He's fungible.
 

HomeRunBaker

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This is a big part of why I am on Team Marcus as PG. Ultimately I think a lot of offense will run through Tatum, some can run through Horford and Rob, so it is less important to have a true PG on the floor for offense. And if switching is going to be a key part of the defense, having Marcus is better. Last year teams hunted Kemba and Pritichard.
The difference is that Kemba and Pritchard are terrible when hunted. Last night in OT, Charlotte got the Schroder switch on Oubre and locked him up like Draymond would. When did Schroder become a bad defender when motivated? His biggest issue is taking possessions off during the course of the game but has always been a very good on-the-ball defender. Not sure how/when this image changed.
 

JCizzle

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Romeo has already missed half the games of a four game season. The health is so glaring that everything else is basically irrelevant. He can't stay on the court.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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So was Semi a rotational mainstay? I guess it's semantics on what a rotational mainstay is. I don't see him as a guy getting a 2nd contract from the Celtics and I don't see any of us missing him. He's fungible.
Semi only played in 58 games last year, which included garbage time minutes. I don't think a "rotational mainstay" sits for that many games when healthy but YMMV.

If RL stays healthy, he's absolutely getting a second contract from somebody. I'm more worried that he's going to price himself out of the Cs future rather than signing a minimum contract. He's still the youngest player on the Cs.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Romeo has already missed half the games of a four game season. The health is so glaring that everything else is basically irrelevant. He can't stay on the court.
The vast majority of time he has missed has been freak injuries. It’s a little bit early to conclude that because he had Covid and a thumb injury he was drafted with, we should expect that his calf injury now is evidence that he cannot stay on the floor.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Semi only played in 58 games last year, which included garbage time minutes. I don't think a "rotational mainstay" sits for that many games when healthy but YMMV.

If RL stays healthy, he's absolutely getting a second contract from somebody. I'm more worried that he's going to price himself out of the Cs future rather than signing a minimum contract. He's still the youngest player on the Cs.

There were 72 games and he missed a bunch due to covid.

Not 82 games.
 

NomarsFool

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It looked like the Celtics were going underneath the screens all the time leaving Ball open for 3s. Granted, it seemed like they were doing that when Ball was 3-5 beyond the arc - ordinarily you might be happy he's taking that shot. But, on the other hand, he seemed to be making quite a few of them.

I actually felt bad for Plumlee.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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It looked like the Celtics were going underneath the screens all the time leaving Ball open for 3s. Granted, it seemed like they were doing that when Ball was 3-5 beyond the arc - ordinarily you might be happy he's taking that shot. But, on the other hand, he seemed to be making quite a few of them.

I actually felt bad for Plumlee.
The Cs weren't going under the screen - they were switching. However, the switch can be countered by the guy with the ball pulling up and shooting as the two defenders have to communicate who is going to go out and guard the shooter. Fournier did the same thing to the Cs on several occasions. It's something the Cs have to clean-up.
 

JCizzle

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The vast majority of time he has missed has been freak injuries. It’s a little bit early to conclude that because he had Covid and a thumb injury he was drafted with, we should expect that his calf injury now is evidence that he cannot stay on the floor.
The evidence that he cannot stay on the floor is that he hasn't stayed on the floor. It's been one thing after another. Freak or not, he needs to play and has yet to do so since getting drafted.
 

benhogan

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Romeo has already missed half the games of a four game season. The health is so glaring that everything else is basically irrelevant. He can't stay on the court.
Sounds very TimeLordish circa January'21. There were people around here that couldn't care less if TL was cut after the bubble, and were damn sure he wouldn't get that 2nd contract.

let's see Romeo play the next few months before writing his obit, if his 3pt shot is real he'll be more than a nice rotational player
 

Deathofthebambino

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The vast majority of time he has missed has been freak injuries. It’s a little bit early to conclude that because he had Covid and a thumb injury he was drafted with, we should expect that his calf injury now is evidence that he cannot stay on the floor.
After he healed from the thumb issue, he had multiple sprained ankles during that rookie season, and then eventually got shut down following wrist surgery. I'm pretty sure there was also a concussion somewhere in there, then he got COVID, now he's got a calf issue.

I'm rooting for Romeo and hope he plays well (and if healthy, I think he really does help this team), but he's got less durability right now than TimeLord, and we wouldn't downplay Timelord's injuries as freak.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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There were 72 games and he missed a bunch due to covid.

Not 82 games.
(1) no one said 82 games.
(2) I did a quick look and did not see anything about Semi having COVID. I did see that he sat out a couple of games for COVID protocols (presumably close contact) - https://www.cbssports.com/fantasy/basketball/news/celtics-semi-ojeleye-likely-out-through-saturday/ - but nothing about COVID. Of course, my research skills/memory could be faulty.
(3) There were more than a couple of games that Semi played only because it was a blow-out one way or another.
(4) I guess one way we could define "rotational mainstay" is if a player would get minutes when the team is fully healthy. RL played minutes against TOR this year when the team was healthy. He also played major minutes against BRK last year in the playoffs. Semi did not play at all in the playoffs last year except for 2 garbage time stints against BRK.
 

Cesar Crespo

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(1) no one said 82 games.
(2) I did a quick look and did not see anything about Semi having COVID. I did see that he sat out a couple of games for COVID protocols (presumably close contact) - https://www.cbssports.com/fantasy/basketball/news/celtics-semi-ojeleye-likely-out-through-saturday/ - but nothing about COVID. Of course, my research skills/memory could be faulty.
(3) There were more than a couple of games that Semi played only because it was a blow-out one way or another.
(4) I guess one way we could define "rotational mainstay" is if a player would get minutes when the team is fully healthy. RL played minutes against TOR this year when the team was healthy. He also played major minutes against BRK last year in the playoffs. Semi did not play at all in the playoffs last year except for 2 garbage time stints against BRK.
He missed the games for Covid protocols and also had that injury at the end of the year. That injury made many people ask if he'd ever see the court for the C's again. He did.

Plus teams are never fully healthy and Langford himself has not played on a fully healthy C's team. They weren't healthy during the playoffs. I doubt he plays if Jaylen Brown was around.

It's really not that hard to be a "rotational mainstay" when most teams have 10-11 guys you can make that argument for.
 

HomeRunBaker

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And what if he doesn't play? When do you write him off due to injures?
Why in the world would you write off a player on his rookie contract who has made the type gains that Romeo has due to non-career threatening injuries? There is obviously a physical element that he and the trainers need to address but questioning whether to write him off does nothing except show a blatant bias.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Why in the world would you write off a player on his rookie contract who has made the type gains that Romeo has due to non-career threatening injuries? There is obviously a physical element that he and the trainers need to address but questioning whether to write him off does nothing except show a blatant bias.
Not everyone sees the huge gains that you and Love do? You have a clear bias towards him.

And I asked when you'd write him off. So you are answering, after his rookie deal?
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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After he healed from the thumb issue, he had multiple sprained ankles during that rookie season, and then eventually got shut down following wrist surgery. I'm pretty sure there was also a concussion somewhere in there, then he got COVID, now he's got a calf issue.

I'm rooting for Romeo and hope he plays well (and if healthy, I think he really does help this team), but he's got less durability right now than TimeLord, and we wouldn't downplay Timelord's injuries as freak.
Yes, thumb, sprained ankle he got in G-league, wrist, COVID, and now calf. Also yes he was in concussion protocol for a bit. He's also had knee pain, groin issues, the adductor strain he tried to play through in the bubble, and a wrist strain he got during Summer League.

So yes, health is an issue. But he is super young and he can probably do things to help him stay healthy.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Not everyone sees the huge gains that you and Love do? You have a clear bias towards him.

And I asked when you'd write him off. So you are answering, after his rookie deal?
I personally don't see the huge gains that they do, but I think he can help this team

That said, I wouldn't write him off, I just wouldn't count on him. I think that's probably how most C's fans feel about him at this point.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Not everyone sees the huge gains that you and Love do? You have a clear bias towards him.

And I asked when you'd write him off. So you are answering, after his rookie deal?
Well I don’t really understand what you’re watching then as Romeo from a year or two years ago is unrecognizable as a player compared to where he is today. It’s clear to Ime as Romeo is a key part of the rotation on a deep team. Not being snarky that’s simply my opinion.