Analysis of Celtics Games, '21-'22 Season

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I’m fine with Kanter as your 9th man/2nd unit change of pace big but when has Kanter ever accumulated DNP-CD outside of Boston? He’s avg 21-31 mpg since his 2nd year in the league and to my knowledge only missed games due to injury and never to a Coach’s Decision.
NYK stopped playing him before they traded him to PDX in 2018-19. And last year even though he played every game during the regular season, he became unplayable in the playoffs because other teams game plan for him (Game 1 = 15 minutes; Game 2 = 17:32 minutes; Game 3: 5:50; Game 4 = 3:19 in a 20 point win; Game 5: 14:20, and Game 6: DNP).
 

benhogan

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I'm not sure what your point is. They definitely use drop coverage with Kanter in the game. The problem is that someone like Murray can get all the open mid-range jumpers he can make in drop coverage and someone like JT can get a ton of open 3Ps. (Of course, during the end of the game, Murray got anything he wanted even with the switch defense and I thought Horford's defense wasn't pretty.)

It was an interesting wrinkle towards the end of the half where GW was trying to replace Kanter on the big so that Kanter wouldn't in the PnR but Kanter blew the switch and Walker hit an open 3P. I think they tried that a couple of times.

But at the end of the day MIL won a championship playing what I recall to be primarily drop coverage at least when Lopez was in the game so theoretically it's possible to win playing drop coverage. I'm sure teams run the numbers all the time - is it better to give up easy points at the rim on mismatches versus better guarding the 3P line or is better to stop stuff at the rim and live with 3P variance?

Last night from Kanter's +/-, it worked in his favor but we know that on many nights, it's going to work against him.
The funny or sad part is Murray got better mid-range looks on the switch approach than the drop approach. Smart/DS are capable of slipping over screens. and it's not like anyone has to worry about Poeltl pick & popping. You know its gotten really bad when we can't stop DeJounte Murray, offensive savant.

We all remember Brook Lopez being considered one of the worst defensive Centers in the NBA to magically getting DPOY votes. A combination of scheme and playing with Giannis were the drivers of the transformation. The point is the Celtics can get by with Kanter (w/out GA) using drop coverage against weaker 2nd units in small stints.

Kanter's DNP-CD, when Al/TL were playing 40mpg, was foolish, and we're paying the price now since Horford has looked a step slower the last 2 weeks. TL already missed 4-5 games from being nicked up and now has some sort of non-COVID illness.

I’m fine with Kanter as your 9th man/2nd unit change of pace big but when has Kanter ever accumulated DNP-CD outside of Boston? He’s avg 21-31 mpg since his 2nd year in the league and to my knowledge only missed games due to injury and never to a Coach’s Decision.
If they'd just split the Center minutes between TL/Al, he wouldn't even be the 9th man. He'd probably be somewhere around 10th/11th in mpg

The knock-on effect from 2BIGZ is greater than the 6 minutes that Al & Rob play together to start the 1st and 3rd quarters. Which was highlighted in the preseason by you, by me by 20 other posters around here.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I’m fine with Kanter as your 9th man/2nd unit change of pace big but when has Kanter ever accumulated DNP-CD outside of Boston? He’s avg 21-31 mpg since his 2nd year in the league and to my knowledge only missed games due to injury and never to a Coach’s Decision.
You can Google it. Apparently there are human beings who selected Kanter in fantasy basketball in years past and wound up disappointed.
 

nighthob

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Entering the game, the Cs were 22nd in FG% at 44% (league average, which is thus far down is 44.8%). The Spurs were sixth at 46.3%.

SA shot 43.7% from the field while Boston shot 37%.

The Spurs are not a good defensive team as they average FGA of 46.4% on the season so its easy to see what I am getting at. This team's offense is a mess.

My sense is that this is a macro issue with the roster versus a coaching or PG distribution issue. They need to find more consistent sources of offense either internally or externally. You can swap a Smart or Schroder into a more natural distributor and unless that player is also a great scorer, I feel like the team is in roughly the same spot. They need what they have lacked the last few years which is another bucket getter.
I mostly agree with this, the team is figuring things out defensively, but they have a real need of someone like SGA to unlock the Jays. If I were DOBOBS I might look hard at a Brown for SGA swap.

Right now OKC is using Gilgeous-Alexander as a primary scorer/finisher to take advantage of Giddey. Understandab;e as Giddey’s been really good so far. But Giddey/Brown would probably be a more effective pairing for them. Just as SGA/Tatum is probably a more effective pairing for Boston.

Thanks to OKC ultra low payroll (and thus their ability to create the space to take Brown’s contract outright), the deal works despite the PPP status of Gilgeous-Alexander’s extension. It would also leave Boston with a second large TPE to use in looking around for talent.
 

benhogan

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If I were DOBOBS I might look hard at a Brown for SGA swap.
I have to ask, is "DOBOBS" some sort of Analytical Think Tank the Celtics run driven by Austin Ainge at the local Dunkins?

Dunkin Operations of Ball Optimization for Basketball Science

*I really like to stick to broadcast acronyms for the braintrust
 
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Cesar Crespo

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Even if Ime did everything perfectly, the team is probably still 10-10. It's mostly a talent issue and the team has little.

Guard the Jays, let everyone else have theirs. Good chance of winning.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I have to ask, is "DOBOBS" some sort of Analytical Think Tank the Celtics run driven by Austin Ainge at the local Dunkins?

Dunkin Operations of Ball Optimization for Basketball Science

*I really like to stick to broadcast acronyms for the braintrust
Director of Basketball Operations, Brad Stevens.
 

Cesar Crespo

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And while it's just SSS and isn't predictive of anything, The Celtics are 6-3 without Brown and 4-7 with. They have been better getting 0 contribution from Jaylen Brown. They have STRUGGLED with Jaylen Brown, not without.

edit: I'm discussing what has happened in the first 20 games, not what will happen over the next 62. Thru the first 20, they've been a better basketball team without Jaylen Brown.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I'm not sure what your point is. They definitely use drop coverage with Kanter in the game. The problem is that someone like Murray can get all the open mid-range jumpers he can make in drop coverage and someone like JT can get a ton of open 3Ps. (Of course, during the end of the game, Murray got anything he wanted even with the switch defense and I thought Horford's defense wasn't pretty.)
My point is that the Celtics can get by with Kanter as a backup, using him as a backup has actually been a positive for the team over the past couple of weeks.

You seem to be on the Ime side of this: his defense is so bad that he can't even be trusted for regular bench minutes. I disagree with that.
 

Deathofthebambino

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And while it's just SSS and isn't predictive of anything, The Celtics are 6-3 without Brown and 4-7 with. They have been better getting 0 contribution from Jaylen Brown. They have STRUGGLED with Jaylen Brown, not without.

edit: I'm discussing what has happened in the first 20 games, not what will happen over the next 62. Thru the first 20, they've been a better basketball team without Jaylen Brown.
That's just not true. The two best wins the C's have all year are against Charlotte and Miami, and Jaylen played in both and played great.

I know folks want to look at the games he played and the record, but they beat Milwaukee without Giannis or Middleton or Lopez and had to go to overtime at home to do it.

They beat Cleveland without Sexton, Love, Mobley and J. Allen, after losing to them two nights earlier when Cleveland had Mobley and Allen.

The other wins without Jaylen were against the Thunder, Lakers, Houston and Toronto. Teams they should beat with one hand tied behind their backs, and other than Houston and the 2nd Cleveland game, every win they have without Jaylen is at home.

Even in the losses with Jaylen, Jaylen is the reason they are even in shouting distance against the Knicks, the 2nd Wiz game and the Bulls.
 

Deathofthebambino

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I’m fine with Kanter as your 9th man/2nd unit change of pace big but when has Kanter ever accumulated DNP-CD outside of Boston? He’s avg 21-31 mpg since his 2nd year in the league and to my knowledge only missed games due to injury and never to a Coach’s Decision.
I just checked all of Enes' game logs for his entire regular season career, and outside of his two stints in Boston, I could only find maybe one, plus the aforementioned benching by the Knicks before they traded him to Portland.

Last season, and in almost every other season, he played double digit minutes in almost every single game. I think I counted about 6 games last season that he played less than 15 minutes, and the lowest was 11 minutes.
 

Fishy1

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Yeah, Tatum is the guy who's barely shooting 40% from the field on 22 FGA/game. Brown has his warts (I'm absolutely sick of watching him ignore easy passes in favor of trying to get a tough bucket, and I'm also sick of him missing so much time), but he's at least been shooting well. We were all hoping Tatum would make a leap as a playmaker, instead both of them have regressed. A lot of this team's problems will be solved once Tatum just starts playing better, but not all of them, and I think we can all agree this team needs a lead playmaker who's a serious threat to score if they even want to think about title contention.

I agree that Schroder's been fine, but he's not really the guy who can help Tatum and Brown get theirs. Watching Tatum try to spin-move out of every little bit of ball-pressure is getting maddening. The guy just does not have the handle to make teams pay for double-teaming him. I hoped adding Horford and Schroder would make this team a little better at passing by virtue of there just being more playmakers, but.... not so much so far.

I think this team will look better once they start to hit their threes, but they won't be that good. Almost everybody but Langford and G-Will is shooting a career low on three pointers -- which squares with the fact that three point shooting is down league-wide -- but the Celtics have seen particularly precipitous drops as was noted upthread. But Horford, Tatum and Smart all combining to shoot about 30%... just gross.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Yea I thought SoSH changed the channel from CBS to PBS this year.

Still looking forward to our advanced analytics gurus fixing this or maybe .500 is a reach?
I don't think there is a fix and that this is the team's true talent level. Unless they add some talent, 41-46 wins. 46-36 is probably good for the 5 or 6 seed. 41 is a play in game. They'll go on 4-5 game winning streaks that will buy some good will and then lose 6 out of 8. If there's a silver lining, the C's played well without Brown. If they can play that way and incorporate Brown into it, they could be closer to the 46.

It's also the NBA where 1 player can change a lot. A player like Seth Curry has a lot of value around the league but he'd have even far greater value on the C's. Buddy Hield, Joe Harris. These players are sometimes available and they aren't super expensive. Being able to go Jay/Jay/Smart/Sniper/Al or Jay/Jay/DS/Sniper/TL would help immensely, never mind as you get into deeper bench rotations.

I've been saying it for awhile but I think the biggest problem the C's have is personal. Unless there's a leap from a younger player, even if this team is healthy and plays optimally, they aren't going to be much better than a .500 team. There isn't enough offense/shooting. Just focus on shutting the Jays down. Shut those 2 down, and you've all but eliminated the C's perimeter game. Teams are in a position to trade 3s for 2s.

Hell, I think adding Malik Monk to this team would make the team considerably better. Monk isn't great shakes himself but he provides a desperate need. Jabari, Kanter and PP are the C's "offense minded" players off the bench. PP isn't a "scorer" and has struggled shooting. Jabari and Kanter can be relied on to score buckets but they can't score at all 3 levels.

A 3rd star is an extremely hard, and unrealistic, get. A sharpshooting microwave off the bench should be manageable. Maybe the C's didn't have the ability to acquire that player, they thought PP/Others would provide it, or the player just wasn't available... but they really need one. Add Desmond Bane to the C's at the start of the season and instead of 41-46 wins, it's probably 50+ and the C's are looking at home court. Add Bane to Atlanta and they are playing at roughly the same level because Bane isn't filling a desperate need.

Out of players that qualify at 3pt%
Romeo leads the team at .438, 14/32
Grant is 2nd, .412, 28/68
Jaylen 3rd, .367, 27/79
Richardson 4th, .349, 14/43
Schroder 5th, .322, 29/90
Tatum 6th, .320, 55/170
Horford 7th, .292 21/72
Smart 8th, .257, 25/91

That's dreadful. C's are 26th in the league in 3pt% despite being 12th in attempts. The team is at .324 for the year, which is about where DS and Tatum are. When your entire team is shooting 3s like DS, you have some problems. Tatum reverting back to form will help quite a bit but they'll still be a shooter short. Grant Williams is their best shooter off the bench and I'm not sure it's even debatable atm. Maybe PP and AN emerge but they've been brutal in the early going. Even if RL doesn't regress from .438, he doesn't get nearly enough volume.

The team only has 2 real threats from 3 and one of them can't hit the broadside of a barn atm. The C's can be defended way too easily.

It's frustrating because we all see it. 90% of what ails the team could be cured by Kevin Huerter. It's more frustrating that Herro and Haliburton were drafted right before the C's selection and that a lot of good players went after AN. Still, the team should be able to find their own Kevin Huerter. Makes me think they had high hopes on PP.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Even in the losses with Jaylen, Jaylen is the reason they are even in shouting distance against the Knicks, the 2nd Wiz game and the Bulls.
That's how it's always going to work. If he's not out there, they might be in shouting distance because other players stepped up in his absence. If he's playing, he's going to factor into the outcome heavily. They also played their worst game of the year with Jaylen.

I'm hoping it's a real thing, anyway. Only because I think it's something that could be fixed with nothing more than playing time.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Brown has his warts (I'm absolutely sick of watching him ignore easy passes in favor of trying to get a tough bucket, and I'm also sick of him missing so much time), but he's at least been shooting well.
Really? He hasn't even missed that much playing time and has been pretty durable his NBA career. I could see being "worried about his health" but sick of him missing games? He had a legit injury last year and this season we are 20 games in. He had an early injury that caused him to miss 8 games. and he's played 11 of 20 games. Seems like early season bias. Maybe he ends up with 68 games played this year instead of 75 because of an early season injury. He's not RL or TL.

Again, if you are concerned about his health, that's legit. That's far different than being sick of him missing games.
 

bankshot1

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I think Ime is shuffling a short deck with Al and then TL and then Jaylen missing games. And 2nd teamers/bench guys were forced to step up, GW did, JR has, Kanter recently has, Romeo has been ok, but PP and Nesmith have sucked. Tatum has been a little disappointing, but his talent seems undeniable, I hope he snaps out of his inconsistent play. I mostly love Marcus' intensity and fight.

Maybe from a player's perspective, Ime seems to be a little inconsistent with rotations as it seems he's praying to find a hot hand to fill an inside straight. and if a guy disappoints him, he seems to disappear which puts pressure and PT on the few remaining healthy bodies. And it might be a breeding ground for discontent.

This team's offensive play early on has been disheartening but IMO fixable with some consistency in the expected rotations. I was heartened by the far better defensive play. That will work 24/7/365 if they keep it up.

Right now they're stuck in NBA parity, with a lot of other teams, but they have time to figure it out, to break out of the pack, or suck and sink and piss the hell out of us.

Despite a disheartening loss last night, I still retain my optimism they'll figure it out.

But I also retain the right to curse them out when they play stupid selfish ball.
 

Fishy1

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Really? He hasn't even missed that much playing time and has been pretty durable his NBA career. I could see being "worried about his health" but sick of him missing games? He had a legit injury last year and this season we are 20 games in. He had an early injury that caused him to miss 8 games. and he's played 11 of 20 games. Seems like early season bias. Maybe he ends up with 68 games played this year instead of 75 because of an early season injury. He's not RL or TL.

Again, if you are concerned about his health, that's legit. That's far different than being sick of him missing games.
I was pretty vague, and in hindsight my complaint is mostly unfair: I certainly wouldn't say he's as injury prone as RL or TL. It's a minor gripe, and I can't explain exactly why it's bothering me. I guess my perception of the the knee, the wrist, and the hamstring (which is an injury he's had before) injuries has left me feeling frustrated more because of how bad the injury luck was last year, and how prone TL and RL are.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I like Enes Kanter and I don't see a real divergence of opinion around him on this board. Some people who are unfamiliar with his overall profile have understandably witnessed him come in, snag all the rebounds and essentially overpower defenders down low. Why won't he be allowed to do more of that?

Maybe he can but the evidence is pretty overwhelming that diminishing returns kick in fairly quickly, especially if he gets switched aggressively. As far as DNP CDs go, I went through game logs too and they are there.

But I stand by my statement that "He has had a number of DNP CDs or limited minutes over the years across multiple teams" due to his defensive limitations. Even if I am dead wrong, his current contract is ~50% of what he earned last season. That speaks volumes about how the NBA values what Kanter does.

Edit: if people need to see my work, we can take it to PM but I am not compiling Enes Kanters inactives/DNPs and low minute games, adjusting for injury context and posting it here. Apologies.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I like Enes Kanter and I don't see a real divergence of opinion around him on this board. Some people who are unfamiliar with his overall profile have understandably witnessed him come in, snag all the rebounds and essentially overpower defenders down low. Why won't he be allowed to do more of that?

Maybe he can but the evidence is pretty overwhelming that diminishing returns kick in fairly quickly, especially if he gets switched aggressively. As far as DNP CDs go, I went through game logs too and they are there.

But I stand by my statement that "He has had a number of DNP CDs or limited minutes over the years across multiple teams" due to his defensive limitations. Even if I am dead wrong, his current contract is ~50% of what he earned last season. That speaks volumes about how the NBA values what Kanter does.
He had a handful of DNP-CDs in NY before they traded him. His first stint in Boston, he only had 3 in the regular season. He had 6 in the playoffs out of 17 games and a bunch of other games where it may as well been a DNP. He had 2 DNPs in Portland. One was the last game of the season his first time in Portland. The 2nd was their last playoff game of the season and his 2nd stint with the club. Last year.

In OKC, he saw a huge minutes reduction in the playoffs but still played.

Are you sure you aren't reading inactive as did not play?

Another thing that speaks volumes is the C's had to attach a 1st round pick to trade him and his $5 mil salary. I think he'd be fine to play 10-15 mpg in the regular season tho.
 

Cesar Crespo

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He's played in the last 7 and is averaging 13.0 mpg. Granted TL has missed 5 of the last 7. Who knows if Kanter will continue to play when TL is back. I'm guessing no.

With how many wings the C's have, they shouldn't be playing Kanter anyway but 2 big lineup! Of course, they aren't playing him with the 2 big line up either, which is puzzling.
 

Deathofthebambino

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In 2011-12 (his rookie season), Enes played minutes in all 66 games.

In 2012-13, he had one "did not play" midseason, and then had a "did not dress" the following day. Those were the only 2 games he didn't play in, until he dislocated his shoulder and missed the last 10 games.

In 2013-14, he missed one game with an inactive (not a DNP).

In 2014-15, he missed one game when he wasn't with the team, and then had 6 "Did not dress" games, which I think we now refer to as "load management."

In 2015-16, he played in every game, and played at least 12 minutes in all of them.

In 2016-17, he played double digit minutes in every game, except one, and missed 9 games when he broke his forearm.

In 2017-18, he missed 3 games due to back spasms, had one "did not dress" and another (not with the team). He was inactive the last 6 games of the year, but considering he had posted 40 double doubles to that point, I'm guessing it was injury or the Knicks were tanking (they went 2-4 without him).

In 2018-19, he had 3 inactives, and then 6 DNPs and then the Knicks traded him to Portland. The Knicks went 1-8 in those games.

In 2019-20, his first season in Boston, Brad gave him a ton of DNP-CD's.

In 2020-21, he went back to Portland and played double digit minutes in every single game.

Then this season.

So yes, there are DNP-CD's in his history, they just all happen to all be here)

EDIT: FTR, I'm a huge Kanter fan off the court, not so much on the court. But letting him sit on the bench, while Ime drove Horford and TL into the ground was a mistake and nearly everyone on this board saw it coming. Even 10 minutes from Kanter, to give those guys some time to recover would have been better.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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My point is that the Celtics can get by with Kanter as a backup, using him as a backup has actually been a positive for the team over the past couple of weeks.

You seem to be on the Ime side of this: his defense is so bad that he can't even be trusted for regular bench minutes. I disagree with that.
I think Kanter is fine for some bench minutes but Kanter's problem always has been that he's unplayable in meaningful games when teams gameplan.

I also think Ime's attempt to try to get something out of Parker was worthwhile too.

I don't think Kanter decision is among the top 5 issues with the Cs but - and I'm trying to be objective here - Kanter seems to give the Cs themost production out of those minutes at this time, so I'd probably keep rolling him out there. Although he was not great vs HOU .
 

Cesar Crespo

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In 2015-16, he played in every game, and played at least 12 minutes in all of them.

In 2016-17, he played double digit minutes in every game, except one, and missed 9 games when he broke his forearm.

In 2020-21, he went back to Portland and played double digit minutes in every single game.
In 15/16, he had 4 games with less than 12 minutes. They were the last 4 games of the season and they came in the playoffs. This was after 20.6 mpg up to that point in the first 14 playoff games. The last 4: 8.6mpg.
In 16/17, he had another 3 games where he didn't play double digits. They were 3 of the last 4 games of the season, and they came in the playoffs. He played 16:29 and 10:29 in his other 2 playoff games that year.
In 20/21, he had 2 games where he didn't play double digits. The were 2 of the last 4 games of the season. The last game, he had a DNP. Like before, playoffs.

I could maybe see an argument for not wanting to give Kanter any type of real role with the team because he's not going to be used come playoff time. And 10-15 mpg is 820-1230 minutes over an 82 game season. That's a lot of time to give someone who is only signed for this year and won't be part of the playoff rotation.
 

BigSoxFan

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Kanter in small doses can have some utility. Seems like a guy who shouldn’t have a regular role but who we can slot in for 5-10 minutes, when matchups are most beneficial.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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He had a handful of DNP-CDs in NY before they traded him. His first stint in Boston, he only had 3 in the regular season. He had 6 in the playoffs out of 17 games and a bunch of other games where it may as well been a DNP. He had 2 DNPs in Portland. One was the last game of the season his first time in Portland. The 2nd was their last playoff game of the season and his 2nd stint with the club. Last year.

In OKC, he saw a huge minutes reduction in the playoffs but still played.

Are you sure you aren't reading inactive as did not play?

Another thing that speaks volumes is the C's had to attach a 1st round pick to trade him and his $5 mil salary. I think he'd be fine to play 10-15 mpg in the regular season tho.
I believe my initial statement was accurate. I used the word "number" deliberately.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Hell, I think adding Malik Monk to this team would make the team considerably better. Monk isn't great shakes himself but he provides a desperate need. Jabari, Kanter and PP are the C's "offense minded" players off the bench. PP isn't a "scorer" and has struggled shooting. Jabari and Kanter can be relied on to score buckets but they can't score at all 3 levels.
If Malik Monk can help the Cs then the Cs should be force-feeding AN minutes as AN already plays better defense than Monk.

But the problem with adding a shooter is that having him stand in the corner and launching 3Ps at the end of shot clocks when someone decides to give up the ball isn't a great way to get shooters into rhythm.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Kanter in small doses can have some utility. Seems like a guy who shouldn’t have a regular role but who we can slot in for 5-10 minutes, when matchups are most beneficial.
Yeah. Ideally. Unfortunately, it makes sense to give him more of a role if you are going with the 2 big lineup, but that hasn't been the case either. The 2 big lineup really requires you to have a 3rd big who plays a little or a unicorn athletic long 4 who can play the 5.
 

HomeRunBaker

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NYK stopped playing him before they traded him to PDX in 2018-19. And last year even though he played every game during the regular season, he became unplayable in the playoffs because other teams game plan for him (Game 1 = 15 minutes; Game 2 = 17:32 minutes; Game 3: 5:50; Game 4 = 3:19 in a 20 point win; Game 5: 14:20, and Game 6: DNP).
I’m very aware of his matchup issues in the playoffs but he’s never had DNP-CD’s during the regular season. The only exception like you said was when the Knicks pretty much shut him down after starting the year 10-31 and wanting to give minutes to their younger guys with Mitchell Robinson returning from an injury.
 

Deathofthebambino

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I believe my initial statement was accurate. I used the word "number" deliberately.
What about your subsequent statements? You know a lot of folks drafting Kanter in PLAYOFF fantasy basketball? Or you still want to stand by your statement that coaches only played him big minutes due to injuries, because they had to play him?

I'll stand by my original statement, "I just checked all of Enes' game logs for his entire regular season career, and outside of his two stints in Boston, I could only find maybe one, plus the aforementioned benching by the Knicks before they traded him to Portland. "


And stop with this fucking bullshit about taking it to PM's. If you don't want to back up or discuss your posts on the board, DON'T FUCKING POST. It's not a hard concept.

You write this: "Edit: if people need to see my work, we can take it to PM but I am not compiling Enes Kanters inactives/DNPs and low minute games, adjusting for injury context and posting it here. Apologies.

Who are you apologizing to? You fucking told HRB to Google it, well, I googled it. Next time, use the word playoff, instead of "number." You know, like I used "regular season" instead of "number." Given that we are currently talking about the regular season in a thread about the REGULAR season, maybe you should be more clear.
 

Cesar Crespo

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If Malik Monk can help the Cs then the Cs should be force-feeding AN minutes as AN already plays better defense than Monk.

But the problem with adding a shooter is that having him stand in the corner and launching 3Ps at the end of shot clocks when someone decides to give up the ball isn't a great way to get shooters into rhythm.
You'd hope if a player was hitting shots, the other 4 players would be more likely to pass him the ball. Some of it is what you mention, some of it is a lack of shooters/scorers. Monk is always going to be a bad defender (terrible length) but he can score. With a roster of 15, you should have a few guys who can light it up and not much else. I agree they should be force feeding AN minutes but at some point AN has to be the one forcing the C's to play him. Malik Monk is not that high a bar to clear. I'm probably one of his biggest fans so he may not be the best example. Still think he'd help.

The Celtics don't suck. They aren't a bad team. They are a .500ish team. As fans, .500ish teams suck and it's a bad place to be. But adding even a 20-25 minute rotation player to a .500 team without subtracting 1 can make a decent impact in the regular season standings. That's especially true when they fill a huge need. Change that to a 30 minute rotation player, and even better. These players are not impossible to acquire. They just aren't going to be Bradley Beal and they aren't going to make the C's title favorites. It would make the C's more enjoyable to watch and give them a puncher's chance in the playoffs. Tatum or Brown are capable of going off on any night and beating someone by themselves. Tatum, more so. Add a player who is a danger to go 4/10 from 3 on any given night and it changes literally everything, especially if they ditch the 2 big lineup in the process. Anytime we play Atlanta, someone will say, "Man, the C's would look great with Bogdan." Yeah, they would. They'd be competing for home court with a small chance at a ring. Bogdan isn't Bradley Beal. If a team is creative, they should be able to acquire a threat from 3. I looked around and nothing screamed at me, but I'm not a GM. I also wasn't being creative and wasn't looking at players in the 3rd or 4th year of their rookie deals, players on expiring etc. I just looked at the 5 worst teams in the NBA and looked at vets. Those teams aren't exactly vet loaded.

This past offseason, it looked like their deals were possibly gearing up for a big trade this coming offseason. I don't know if that's the case, but if it is, I hope they stop wasting years waiting for the 3rd musketeer. At some point, you go with 4 wheels or w/e.

I will also throw out a radical idea I just thought of now because I made a post about Jonas earlier and this thread and others talk about the 2 big lineup. if you are going to do the 2 big lineup. go all in on the 2 big lineup. See what NO wants for Jonas, who is signed at 14mil and a FA at the end of the year. I wouldn't actually do this myself, just brainstorming. Then again, if the asking price for Jonas was 2 2nd round picks, Juan Hernangomez + Jabari, I'd do it anyway.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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What about your subsequent statements? You know a lot of folks drafting Kanter in PLAYOFF fantasy basketball? Or you still want to stand by your statement that coaches only played him big minutes due to injuries, because they had to play him?

I'll stand by my original statement, "I just checked all of Enes' game logs for his entire regular season career, and outside of his two stints in Boston, I could only find maybe one, plus the aforementioned benching by the Knicks before they traded him to Portland. "


And stop with this fucking bullshit about taking it to PM's. If you don't want to back up or discuss your posts on the board, DON'T FUCKING POST. It's not a hard concept.

You write this: "Edit: if people need to see my work, we can take it to PM but I am not compiling Enes Kanters inactives/DNPs and low minute games, adjusting for injury context and posting it here. Apologies.

Who are you apologizing to? You fucking told HRB to Google it, well, I googled it. Next time, use the word playoff, instead of "number." You know, like I used "regular season" instead of "number." Given that we are currently talking about the regular season in a thread about the REGULAR season, maybe you should be more clear.
We disagree and I rest my position.

More to the point, this post and your others aren't trying to analyze Celtics games. Whatever your objective, I am no longer addressing your posts.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I just pulled 4 random names of good 3 point shooting rotation JAGs. In a world the C's could acquire any of the 4 without subtracting from the core 7, think how much it would change rotations and usage. It's a glaring need. It's not asking the world either. Granted the impact differs depending on the player and some have more long term value than others. It may not bring us a ring either, but it would make for a far more enjoyable product.

Luke Kennard
Alec Burks
Cameron Johnson
Grayson Allen
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I just pulled 4 random names of good 3 point shooting rotation JAGs. In a world the C's could acquire any of the 4 without subtracting from the core 7, think how much it would change rotations and usage. It's a glaring need. It's not asking the world either. Granted the impact differs depending on the player and some have more long term value than others. It may not bring us a ring either, but it would make for a far more enjoyable product.

Luke Kennard
Alec Burks
Cameron Johnson
Grayson Allen
You and I are on the same page. They lack one of these types of players who can step in and try (not always succeed) to balance the scoring load.

Even if Tatum and Brown are both maxing out their current games, the team is still short firepower.
 

BigSoxFan

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I just pulled 4 random names of good 3 point shooting rotation JAGs. In a world the C's could acquire any of the 4 without subtracting from the core 7, think how much it would change rotations and usage. It's a glaring need. It's not asking the world either. Granted the impact differs depending on the player and some have more long term value than others. It may not bring us a ring either, but it would make for a far more enjoyable product.

Luke Kennard
Alec Burks
Cameron Johnson
Grayson Allen
The core problem with this team is the Schroder, Smart, Langford, Richardson, and Nesmith group. Doesn’t matter if Tatum/JB create offense if those are the kick out options. Nesmith not developing is a huge issue.
 

Cesar Crespo

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We disagree and I rest my position.

More to the point, this post and your others aren't trying to analyze Celtics games. Whatever your objective, I am no longer addressing your posts.
A couple posters did the research and it says you are wrong. So rather than admit you are wrong, you go with semantics.

I know I've posted the same thing to you last year ( think in the CBS thread) about having no takes and criticizing other people for daring to have an opinion of the basketball game they just watched. Or taking the first 6 or 7 games of the season and trying to notice any possible trends to pay attention to or dismiss. In the beginning, I was worried Ime was too focused on winning and that meant overusing his vets and an affinity against young players. Now, I think he's still a bit too over focused on winning but he will play young players if they produce when given minutes. The season is long and he's a rookie coach. Him wanting to win and make a good impression in his first 20 is basically expected.

It's like you are anti discussion on a discussion board. If you want to wait to form an opinion, that's fine. Don't be so quick to tell others to. Just my 2 cents.
 

Cesar Crespo

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The core problem with this team is the Schroder, Smart, Langford, Richardson, and Nesmith group. Doesn’t matter if Tatum/JB create offense if those are the kick out options. Nesmith not developing is a huge issue.
Right, but change Nesmith to Kennard and it becomes a strength, or at least not a problem.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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A couple posters did the research and it says you are wrong. So rather than admit you are wrong, you go with semantics.

I know I've posted the same thing to you last year ( think in the CBS thread) about having no takes and criticizing other people for daring to have an opinion of the basketball game they just watched. Or taking the first 6 or 7 games of the season and trying to notice any possible trends to pay attention to or dismiss. In the beginning, I was worried Ime was too focused on winning and that meant overusing his vets and an affinity against young players. Now, I think he's still a bit too over focused on winning but he will play young players if they produce when given minutes. The season is long and he's a rookie coach. Him wanting to win and make a good impression in his first 20 is basically expected.

It's like you are anti discussion on a discussion board. If you want to wait to form an opinion, that's fine. Don't be so quick to tell others to. Just my 2 cents.
My statement was 100% correct. Other coaches besides Ime Udoka did not play Enes Kanter or limited his minutes. If the debate is not because of his D, then discuss that. This and posters piling on does nothing to forward a discussion but do you.

We too can just avoid one another going forward.
 

HomeRunBaker

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We disagree and I rest my position.

More to the point, this post and your others aren't trying to analyze Celtics games. Whatever your objective, I am no longer addressing your posts.
It’s just that you made a statement about a player that simply was incorrect and this is SoSH so SoSH does what SoSH does and let’s you know about it. ;)

I think you were counting games missed with injury as a DNP-CD. I’m sure there are game logs that differentiate between the two.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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It’s just that you made a statement about a player that simply was incorrect and this is SoSH so SoSH does what SoSH does and let’s you know about it. ;)

I think you were counting games missed with injury as a DNP-CD. I’m sure there are game logs that differentiate between the two.
Your characterization of what is happening here is incorrect. This is a perceived score settling.

Other coaches besides Ime Udoka have not played Kanter or limited his minutes. Mostly for his D but there have been other reasons that are largely irrelevant to our discussion.

I have no problem admitting when I am mistaken but I am not in this case.
 

benhogan

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I just pulled 4 random names of good 3 point shooting rotation JAGs. In a world the C's could acquire any of the 4 without subtracting from the core 7, think how much it would change rotations and usage. It's a glaring need. It's not asking the world either. Granted the impact differs depending on the player and some have more long term value than others. It may not bring us a ring either, but it would make for a far more enjoyable product.

Luke Kennard
Alec Burks
Cameron Johnson
Grayson Allen
aren't 8 & 9 giving us 40%+ 3pt shooting over the first 20 games? maybe IME should up Romeo and Grants minutes/roles?

Anyways, you could probably add Buddy Hield to that list if Sac blows it up.

Tatum playing better would be a huge help and the real TATUM puts this team somewhere around 13-7. Even with IMEs 2BIGZ nonsense.

20 games in and my Tatum' Top 3 by 2023 playoffs is looking worse by the day. I own it and expect to be ripped if this continues. There is no way JT is catching Steph Curry, who doesn't stop moving for 48minutes and doesn't need to wind up to shoot 3s. He's a freaking magnet that constantly makes smart decisions. Giannis and Durant will still be much better than JT in 18mths. Luka?

I'll ride it out BUT if any want to let me have it, it's deserved.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Yeah, I more or less meant in a world where the luxury tax wasn't an issue either. If they could get him for free, yeah. You can't really acquire him for free.
That would be nice but for whatever reason, while it seems like ownership is willing to go over the luxury tax for a contender, they seem to be hedging their bets as DOBOBS can get this team under the luxury tax pretty quickly as I understand it.

So BOS's moves were a little constrained by salary. Even @benhogan favorite Delon Wright is only shooting .294 from 3P this year, which would continue to cause us to tear our hair out.

Contrast that with MIL, which is somewhere in the neighborhood of $20M over the luxury cap, have $156M committed to 11 players next year, and still decided to give Grayson Allen a $10M a year extension (for two years). https://nba.nbcsports.com/2021/08/31/owner-says-bucks-will-lose-money-this-year-isnt-counting-playoff-revenue/
 

benhogan

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That would be nice but for whatever reason, while it seems like ownership is willing to go over the luxury tax for a contender, they seem to be hedging their bets as DOBOBS can get this team under the luxury tax pretty quickly as I understand it.

So BOS's moves were a little constrained by salary. Even @benhogan favorite Delon Wright is only shooting .294 from 3P this year, which would continue to cause us to tear our hair out.

Contrast that with MIL, which is somewhere in the neighborhood of $20M over the luxury cap, have $156M committed to 11 players next year, and still decided to give Grayson Allen a $10M a year extension (for two years). https://nba.nbcsports.com/2021/08/31/owner-says-bucks-will-lose-money-this-year-isnt-counting-playoff-revenue/
Delon would add a veteran ballhandling/playmaking/distributor which this team sorely needs.

PBS took Hernangomez + Fernando + a $9.8MM TPE over having Wright, jury is still out until we see what they do with the TPE
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Delon would add a veteran ballhandling/playmaking/distributor which this team sorely needs.

PBS took Hernangomez + Fernando + a $9.8MM TPE over having Wright, jury is still out until we see what they do with the TPE
Yeah, I was only kidding. I would have taken Wright as well but what do I know?
 

Euclis20

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Really? He hasn't even missed that much playing time and has been pretty durable his NBA career. I could see being "worried about his health" but sick of him missing games? He had a legit injury last year and this season we are 20 games in. He had an early injury that caused him to miss 8 games. and he's played 11 of 20 games. Seems like early season bias. Maybe he ends up with 68 games played this year instead of 75 because of an early season injury. He's not RL or TL.

Again, if you are concerned about his health, that's legit. That's far different than being sick of him missing games.
He's not RL or TL (or Embiid), but since his rookie year (when he played a career high 78 games) he's missed an average of 11-12 games each year, and that's assuming he's healthy the reason of this year. He's not an ironman, I get the worry that that number will grow as he ages.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Your characterization of what is happening here is incorrect. This is a perceived score settling.

Other coaches besides Ime Udoka have not played Kanter or limited his minutes. Mostly for his D but there have been other reasons that are largely irrelevant to our discussion.

I have no problem admitting when I am mistaken but I am not in this case.
No score settling I’m only having fun with it. These benchings you speak of rarely existed and when they did it was in the playoffs when teams shorten their bench. The only time remotely close was with the Knicks and it wasn’t about his defense, they were 10-31 at the time, it was that they had M.Robinson returning and already said they were trading him.