Analysis of Celtics Games (2020-2021)

reggiecleveland

sublime
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Mar 5, 2004
23,011
Saskatoon Canada
Part of the problem to me is the state of the NBA. They do not reward
One thing that still puzzles me a bit is what Ainge's thinking / plan was for the season around Theis / R. Williams / Thompson with regards to splitting minutes. My hypothesis is that Brad Stevens doesn't play 2 BIGS because he thinks that is a particularly great lineup, but more because DT/RW/TT are all better basketball players than JT/GW/CE/JG/SO. So, what was Ainge thinking with regards to having 3 guys who play the same position (plus GW as occasionally smallball 5)? Has Rob Williams played much better than Ainge expected? I know the argument that 5s get hurt - understood - but you also have to think about setting up your roster for the post-season. It seems we've been struggling all year to figure out how to juggle minutes with these three guys, which has necessitated having 2 bigs on the floor a lot.
I cannot get the constant fixation of the forwards as the problem and the idea eliminating one of them is a solution. No offence, but "2 bigs" became a mantra early on for what ails the team, and it's like that's the only tool in the tool box.

No offence but the idea you would go into the season with just TL, Theis and Grant is silly. I mean malpractice, give up on the season dumb. You can't have only 2 forwards. Guys compete for playing time. Best case is TL improves and takes time from the others, and so far that is happening. No way all three (or silly idea 2) guys are healthy especially in a covid year. 3 is absolute minimum. You want extended time with Tako and Grant manning the middle? Because WIlliams and Theis were both out at almost the same time.
 

CoffeeNerdness

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 6, 2012
5,156
I don't follow the free agency / trade market closely enough to toss out a name, but maybe there was someone else they could have rostered who could have slotted in third in the rotation rather than signing a guy for two years that's started nearly 70% of the 647 NBA games they've played and averaged nearly 28 mpg. I like what TT brings to the table; he works hard and he's improved as the year has gone along and he might be the only player on this team minus Smart who has a scintilla of leadership skills and toughness, but it sure does seem like his addition has made the rotations wonky.
 

Jimbodandy

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
4,615
around the way
I don't follow the free agency / trade market closely enough to toss out a name, but maybe there was someone else they could have rostered who could have slotted in third in the rotation rather than signing a guy for two years that's started nearly 70% of the 647 NBA games they've played and averaged nearly 28 mpg. I like what TT brings to the table; he works hard and he's improved as the year has gone along and he might be the only player on this team minus Smart who has a scintilla of leadership skills and toughness, but it sure does seem like his addition has made the rotations wonky.
FWIW, I think that the short-term problem of wonky rotations isn't something that needs to be solved yet. Having 3 bigs out of a 10 man expanded rotation isn't a bad thing. This is giving TL a chance to compete for minutes with TT, and he is clearly making that case now. But since TL is a constant injury risk and Theis gets dinged up frequently as well (due to his max effort, slightly undersized thing), having three guys in the flow, getting minutes is probably a wise investment.

When we get to the playoffs (insert Jim More gif here), Brad probably is going to have to cut back his big rotation IMO. You can't play these 3 bigs mad minutes in an 8-man playoff rotation. If three of our best eight players are bigs when the playoffs start, we're probably already fucked.
 

shoelace

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 24, 2019
103
I don't follow the free agency / trade market closely enough to toss out a name, but maybe there was someone else they could have rostered who could have slotted in third in the rotation rather than signing a guy for two years that's started nearly 70% of the 647 NBA games they've played and averaged nearly 28 mpg. I like what TT brings to the table; he works hard and he's improved as the year has gone along and he might be the only player on this team minus Smart who has a scintilla of leadership skills and toughness, but it sure does seem like his addition has made the rotations wonky.
Thompson's addition isn't what has made the rotations wonky. It's the absence of Smart and, as others have pointed out, competent wing minutes from other players. Nesmith's recent play is encouraging in that regard. People keep forgetting that Theis is a UFA after the season and even if your read is that Thompson is an averageish big, they have no guarantee that Theis will return next season. They didn't want to go into next season with just TL under contract I'm guessing. I'm sort of expecting Theis to continue the Celtics to Hornets pipeline.

Jed Zeppelin's earlier post pretty much nailed the problems this team is facing, especially with Jaylen and Tatum shouldering too much of the load. We saw Tatum struggling in the 2nd half when they were having him bring the ball up and it seemed emblematic of their recent troubles. I'm more bullish on this roster than others (though it needs tweaking). I think Smart's defense and playmaking are sorely missed, and they'll make a huge difference in terms of taking some of that burden off of Tatum and Brown. And by moving guys like Grant and Semi down the bench where they can only be used in the specific situations where they will excel.
 

Deathofthebambino

Drive Carefully
SoSH Member
Apr 12, 2005
33,762
My biggest issue with the two bigs is the result it has on the offensive end of the floor. I just think they get bogged down way too much. Someone mentioned this in the other thread, but why does every pick and roll with this team require a big to set the screen? I could be wrong, but almost every PnR they run is with Tatum or Kemba at the top, with a big setting the screen. The big rarely "rolls" like a rim runner, and usually drags his man out of the key. The other big hangs down low, and the wings stand in the corner waiting for a pass from Kemba or Tatum that almost never comes. Why can't they run a PnR with Jaylen with the ball in hand and Tatum setting the pick or vice versa, and try to get two scorers involved. Jaylen may be the best passer on the team right now, besides PP (amazingly enough), and having him stand in the corner twiddling his thumbs just doesn't seem like the best role, and yet it happens over and over again, especially in the last 15 minutes of each game. I could go on and on about this, but it's just so damn predictable that it doesn't surprise me that it doesn't work for 48 minutes.
 

mcpickl

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 23, 2007
3,545
I don't follow the free agency / trade market closely enough to toss out a name, but maybe there was someone else they could have rostered who could have slotted in third in the rotation rather than signing a guy for two years that's started nearly 70% of the 647 NBA games they've played and averaged nearly 28 mpg. I like what TT brings to the table; he works hard and he's improved as the year has gone along and he might be the only player on this team minus Smart who has a scintilla of leadership skills and toughness, but it sure does seem like his addition has made the rotations wonky.
Dewayne Dedmon has been sitting home on his couch all year.

He'd have been just fine as a third string center.
 

the moops

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 19, 2016
2,780
Saint Paul, MN
If they run a pick n roll with Tatum and Brown you have just introduced the other teams' two best defenders into the same play. Seems like they just switch and they are no worse off?
 

NomarsFool

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 21, 2001
4,816
I don’t know about frequency , but I’m pretty sure I’ve seen JB and JT set picks. Although I don’t disagree that the bigs do it much more often. In some circumstances, that’s about all they are good for on the offensive end, though, so if someone has to set a pick it might as well be Thompson.
 

RorschachsMask

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 23, 2011
1,483
Lynn
My biggest issue with the two bigs is the result it has on the offensive end of the floor. I just think they get bogged down way too much. Someone mentioned this in the other thread, but why does every pick and roll with this team require a big to set the screen? I could be wrong, but almost every PnR they run is with Tatum or Kemba at the top, with a big setting the screen. The big rarely "rolls" like a rim runner, and usually drags his man out of the key. The other big hangs down low, and the wings stand in the corner waiting for a pass from Kemba or Tatum that almost never comes. Why can't they run a PnR with Jaylen with the ball in hand and Tatum setting the pick or vice versa, and try to get two scorers involved. Jaylen may be the best passer on the team right now, besides PP (amazingly enough), and having him stand in the corner twiddling his thumbs just doesn't seem like the best role, and yet it happens over and over again, especially in the last 15 minutes of each game. I could go on and on about this, but it's just so damn predictable that it doesn't surprise me that it doesn't work for 48 minutes.
Jaylen literally leads the team in usage though, how much more should he have the ball? His usage rate in the 4th is pretty much right in line with his season average, as well. The whole him standing around in the 4th is kind of a misconception. As far as his passing, he’s averaging 3.9 assists and 2.9 turnovers. His assist rate is 20% and his turnover rate is 12%. Tatum is 22% and 10%, Kemba is at 22% and 12%, and Smart (who I know you weren’t counting because he’s injured) is at 26% and 12%.

I’d say Smart>Tatum>PP>Kemba>Jaylen, as far as playmaking.

When you see Tatum and to a lesser extent Jaylen having a big or guard screen for them, it’s to force a mismatch, having them screen for each other would negate that.
 
Last edited:

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
19,508
Dewayne Dedmon has been sitting home on his couch all year.

He'd have been just fine as a third string center.
I have watched enough of Dwayne Dedmon to be fully certain this would have been an awful idea. He can’t defend without fouling, is a dreadful team defender and can singlehandedly sabotage an offensive with his shot selection as an awful shooter who is an unconscious gunner. Doubt you will ever see him in the league again.
 

mcpickl

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 23, 2007
3,545
I have watched enough of Dwayne Dedmon to be fully certain this would have been an awful idea. He can’t defend without fouling, is a dreadful team defender and can singlehandedly sabotage an offensive with his shot selection as an awful shooter who is an unconscious gunner. Doubt you will ever see him in the league again.
And yet, I'd have zero issue with him being a third string center.

Third stringers should either be dudes in their first/second years in the league, or dudes playing for the minimum.

They need to be guys who are basically happy to be in the league, as Dedmon would, because they're only playing if someone ahead of them is injured or a specific circumstance. Like needing someone 7 foot tall to go foul Joel Embiid a bunch.
 

Deathofthebambino

Drive Carefully
SoSH Member
Apr 12, 2005
33,762
If they run a pick n roll with Tatum and Brown you have just introduced the other teams' two best defenders into the same play. Seems like they just switch and they are no worse off?
Are they taking advantage of the switches now? Kemba going to the hoop when he gets a big on him is a black hole, and they seem to just double Tatum and either force a turnover, and force him into a bad shot, because he almost never gives it up out of a PnR. If Tatum has the ball and Brown is rolling to the rim or vice versa, yeah, they'll still have the opponents best defender on them, but they usually do anyway, and they should be able to make a play at the rim, get a foul, or in Jaylen's case, kick it out to an open shooter. Or maybe you have Kemba with the ball, and one of the Jay's setting the pick and rolling to the rim. I don't know, but I feel like something needs to change.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
19,508
And yet, I'd have zero issue with him being a third string center.

Third stringers should either be dudes in their first/second years in the league, or dudes playing for the minimum.

They need to be guys who are basically happy to be in the league, as Dedmon would, because they're only playing if someone ahead of them is injured or a specific circumstance. Like needing someone 7 foot tall to go foul Joel Embiid a bunch.
We already have that guy in Tacko. I get what you’re saying about the role it’s just that Dedmon isn’t that guy. He wasn’t happy the last time he was in the league getting pulled multiple times for launching long 3’s instead of running the offensive set.
 

mcpickl

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 23, 2007
3,545
We already have that guy in Tacko. I get what you’re saying about the role it’s just that Dedmon isn’t that guy. He wasn’t happy the last time he was in the league getting pulled multiple times for launching long 3’s instead of running the offensive set.
Do you think he might be more happy with that role now? You know, since his other option is not being in the league.

Pick a different guy then if Dedmon isn't good enough to be your 11th man. John Henson. Ian Mahimni. Tyler Zeller. Alex Len was available for just over the minimum in the offseason, waived, went unclaimed, then signed for the minimum.

Pick your favorite. Any one of them is fine to be tall and sit at the end of the bench.
 

Deathofthebambino

Drive Carefully
SoSH Member
Apr 12, 2005
33,762
Jaylen literally leads the team in usage though, how much more should he have the ball? His usage rate in the 4th is pretty much right in line with his season average, as well. The whole him standing around in the 4th is kind of a misconception. As far as his passing, he’s averaging 3.9 assists and 2.9 turnovers. His assist rate is 20% and his turnover rate is 12%. Tatum is 22% and 10%, Kemba is at 22% and 12%, and Smart (who I know you weren’t counting because he’s injured) is at 26% and 12%.

I’d say Smart>Tatum>PP>Kemba>Jaylen, as far as playmaking.

When you see Tatum and to a lesser extent Jaylen having a big or guard screen for them, it’s to force a mismatch, having them screen for each other would negate that.
Jaylen in his last 8 games has the following assist totals, 0, 10, 0, 0, 5, 7, 6, 9. In the 3 games he had zero assists, they are 0-3, losing to Utah, Detroit and Washington. In the other games, they are 3-2 with wins against Denver, Toronto and Atlanta (and one of the losses was a 24 point lead in which he had 8 assists before they blew the lead).

I don't know enough about usage rate to know if it's considered infallible, but I know what my eyes tell me and that's when Jaylen has the ball and is looking to distribute, they are a better team than when he stands in a corner and watches Kemba or Tatum use a PnR with TT or Theis. Tatum will get some assists, as he usually does. But Kemba, the assist rate looks ok, until you consider he's a point guard who has more than 5 assists a grand total of 3 times all year, and those three games were 6,6 and 7. He's just not a great passer. He's more Kyrie at the point when it comes to passing, but a worse shooter and way, way worse finisher. If you're going to be running Tatum at the point, then have Kemba be one of the spot up shooters on the wing and leave your big down low (which is why I prefer not to have 2 bigs in the game, because one of them always has to set the screen or the lane will be a clogged mess off the PnR).

I feel like every night we see the same stuff, and it's just not working, so let's, you know, try something different.
 

chilidawg

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 22, 2015
2,566
Cultural hub of the universe
Having depth at the 5 isn't a big problem. The 2 big rotation can work, but requires at least one of those guys to be good from the perimeter. Theis has been that guy with reasonable consistency, but in the 4th last night had that deer in the headlights look that he had in the playoffs last year.

The C's had similar 4th quarter issues in the playoffs last year. Last night they kept initiating with Tatum at the top, NO would double aggressively, and Tatum wasn't effective passing out of the double. No adjustment I could see. On defense NO kept isoing with Ingram and Zion, no double from the CS, no adjustment.
 

SteveF

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
147
According to pbpstats, Boston is 29th in the NBA in shot quality, and 4th in shot quality allowed.

Their shot quality allowed surprised me (I expected them to be worse). Their shot quality, however, doesn't. Tatum and Brown take bad shots -- a lot of bad shots. Someone needs to drill it into their head to make the next right play, regardless of the talent of the guy they are passing to. If those guys can't make the shots, that's on the coach/GM.

It's important for those two players to develop the right habits now.
 

Just a bit outside

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 6, 2011
3,958
Monument, CO
Two thing on the PnR that I noticed is that they often set the screen pretty far out on the wing and the sideline comes into play in as a third defender. It really cuts down on the ability of the others to make a move. The second would be having someone who can slip the screen and catch a quick pass at the foul line to go 4 on 3. I am not sure we have a big that has the skill set to make the other team pay for doubling the ball handler.
 

CreightonGubanich

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 13, 2006
1,134
north shore, MA
Jaylen in his last 8 games has the following assist totals, 0, 10, 0, 0, 5, 7, 6, 9. In the 3 games he had zero assists, they are 0-3, losing to Utah, Detroit and Washington. In the other games, they are 3-2 with wins against Denver, Toronto and Atlanta (and one of the losses was a 24 point lead in which he had 8 assists before they blew the lead).

I don't know enough about usage rate to know if it's considered infallible, but I know what my eyes tell me and that's when Jaylen has the ball and is looking to distribute, they are a better team than when he stands in a corner and watches Kemba or Tatum use a PnR with TT or Theis. Tatum will get some assists, as he usually does. But Kemba, the assist rate looks ok, until you consider he's a point guard who has more than 5 assists a grand total of 3 times all year, and those three games were 6,6 and 7. He's just not a great passer. He's more Kyrie at the point when it comes to passing, but a worse shooter and way, way worse finisher. If you're going to be running Tatum at the point, then have Kemba be one of the spot up shooters on the wing and leave your big down low (which is why I prefer not to have 2 bigs in the game, because one of them always has to set the screen or the lane will be a clogged mess off the PnR).

I feel like every night we see the same stuff, and it's just not working, so let's, you know, try something different.
I agree with you on Jaylen Brown as a distributor, and it's clear how much the team misses Smart as a passer, not to mention Hayward. Everyone keeps saying this team doesn't move the ball enough, but I don't think it's because the players are selfish, it's more that they lack creative playmakers who can manipulate good defenses. Brown and Tatum are both improving as playmakers, but they have a long way to go to get beyond making basic reads and then executing the pass.

It doesn't help that Thompson is a poor passing big man, who allows defenses to collapse on him in the paint without the threat of being able to find open shooters. I'd love to see Rob Williams' passing as the lone big with the starters at some point; I feel the extra space and ball movement would go a long way toward helping the offense.

It's a hard thing to solve for. I don't think the Celtics should be looking to add another non-shooter or poor perimeter defender to the rotation, so it wouldn't make sense to add Rajon Rondo, or Nic Batum, or any number of guys who could help the team with their passing. In some ways, this is fairly expected growing pains for a team that continues to lean more and more on their 24- and 22-year-old stars. Those guys are good enough that you want the ball in their hands now, and it is; they've got to figure out how to make the guys around them better. I think it's reasonable to think they can improve as playmakers, especially Tatum, but it takes time.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
19,595
The two big (TT and Theis) lineup has been much better as the year went on, they were a net positive in January and February (+1, +1.2) after being abysmal in December (-4.3).
The other 2 big lineups... TT/TL don't play together... ever. Theis and TL... Dec- N/A Jan- +3.3 Feb- +3.0
Not surprisingly that coincides with Thompson rounding into form and Theis finding his shot. And the TL numbers make me think it may be here to stay, with late season TL moving into the larger share of minutes outside a few matchups.

The two big lineup is not one of the top 5 problems with this team.
1. Health
2. Late game execution
3. Lack of wing depth
4. Wildly inconsistent bench performance
5. Bad shot selection by their stars
 

Deathofthebambino

Drive Carefully
SoSH Member
Apr 12, 2005
33,762
I agree with you on Jaylen Brown as a distributor, and it's clear how much the team misses Smart as a passer, not to mention Hayward. Everyone keeps saying this team doesn't move the ball enough, but I don't think it's because the players are selfish, it's more that they lack creative playmakers who can manipulate good defenses. Brown and Tatum are both improving as playmakers, but they have a long way to go to get beyond making basic reads and then executing the pass.

It doesn't help that Thompson is a poor passing big man, who allows defenses to collapse on him in the paint without the threat of being able to find open shooters. I'd love to see Rob Williams' passing as the lone big with the starters at some point; I feel the extra space and ball movement would go a long way toward helping the offense.

It's a hard thing to solve for. I don't think the Celtics should be looking to add another non-shooter or poor perimeter defender to the rotation, so it wouldn't make sense to add Rajon Rondo, or Nic Batum, or any number of guys who could help the team with their passing. In some ways, this is fairly expected growing pains for a team that continues to lean more and more on their 24- and 22-year-old stars. Those guys are good enough that you want the ball in their hands now, and it is; they've got to figure out how to make the guys around them better. I think it's reasonable to think they can improve as playmakers, especially Tatum, but it takes time.
I think you and the poster before you both hit on good points. I think Rob Williams can be that guy who catches the ball at the free throw line, or on the roll, and can find an open guy quickly. His hands and passing are arguably his best attributes besides shot blocking and ludicrously insane vertical leap.

If you have RWill as the only big, and hit him at the free throw line with his back to the basket, and then curl your wings off their own screens, you'd have 10 times the ball movement and off-ball movement than we are seeing right now. Move the ball from wing to wing, cut guys back door on the baseline (I can't remember seeing more than a handful of baseline cuts from the C's all season) and you keep the ball in the hands of the guys that can make plays. At this point, it's just spitballing, but again, I just want to see something new, because what we're doing may work for a game, or a half, but when the other team adjusts, we're a mess and we go into these massive funks on the offensive end, which seems to almost automatically leading to the team going to shit on the defensive end too.
 

RorschachsMask

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 23, 2011
1,483
Lynn
Jaylen in his last 8 games has the following assist totals, 0, 10, 0, 0, 5, 7, 6, 9. In the 3 games he had zero assists, they are 0-3, losing to Utah, Detroit and Washington. In the other games, they are 3-2 with wins against Denver, Toronto and Atlanta (and one of the losses was a 24 point lead in which he had 8 assists before they blew the lead).

I don't know enough about usage rate to know if it's considered infallible, but I know what my eyes tell me and that's when Jaylen has the ball and is looking to distribute, they are a better team than when he stands in a corner and watches Kemba or Tatum use a PnR with TT or Theis. Tatum will get some assists, as he usually does. But Kemba, the assist rate looks ok, until you consider he's a point guard who has more than 5 assists a grand total of 3 times all year, and those three games were 6,6 and 7. He's just not a great passer. He's more Kyrie at the point when it comes to passing, but a worse shooter and way, way worse finisher. If you're going to be running Tatum at the point, then have Kemba be one of the spot up shooters on the wing and leave your big down low (which is why I prefer not to have 2 bigs in the game, because one of them always has to set the screen or the lane will be a clogged mess off the PnR).

I feel like every night we see the same stuff, and it's just not working, so let's, you know, try something different.
The definition is usage rate is this: Usage rate, a.k.a., usage percentage is an estimate of the percentage of team plays used by a player while he was on the floor.

It’s pretty reliable for what it is, and he leads the team by a fraction over Tatum, he has the ball a ton. In the 15 highest usage games of the year from Jaylen, the team is 6-9, now to be fair Tatum missed like 5 of those games. I just disagree that he is the best passer on the team besides Smart, he sets up guys less than Tatum, and turns the ball over more.

I will say this stat surprised me. In Jaylens 15 highest assist rate games, the team is 7-8. Same for Tatum, as well. The team plays better when the ball is moving, of course, but everyone has to be working together moving it.

Poster above me nailed it, but RW3 playing more will solve some issues. He creates spacing, and is a very good passing big.
 

NomarsFool

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 21, 2001
4,816
The two big lineup is not one of the top 5 problems with this team.
1. Health
2. Late game execution
3. Lack of wing depth
4. Wildly inconsistent bench performance
5. Bad shot selection by their stars
Agree with you that it's been better, my point is more that I think the team invested too much of their roster/cap space at the 5 - and didn't have enough for the wing. I don't know if it is fixable at this point, but I'd like to see them move one of DT/TL/TT for an upgrade at wing, and find / sign some 3rd stringer to be your emergency 5 that rarely plays (heck, Grant Williams can do that and he's already on the roster). Demarcus Cousins could even be that 3rd string C (not that I'm that high on him). Heck, it wouldn't surprise me if Andre Drummond gets bought out. I think this team would be better with 2 of DT/TL/TT splitting the minutes at the 5, and someone who's a more well rounded basketball player picking up the minutes that they are currently playing at the 4.
 

Kliq

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 31, 2013
14,147
The immediate problem I see in regarding to lineups particularly that involve Tatum and neither Brown or Walker, is that the Celtics do not move the ball quickly enough to punish teams for doubling Tatum. This is the primary reason "point Tatum" hasn't worked out very well. Teams are free to double Tatum at the top of the key and even try and trap him at half court, and the Celtics don't move the ball quickly enough to find the open man before teams can scramble back into their base defense.

There was a particular play yesterday where Tatum was doubled at half court, and he got the ball to Theis, who for a moment had Thompson wide open underneath the hoop for a dunk. He also had I believe Nesmith in the corner for an open three. Theis did not make either read in time, and it allowed New Orleans to get back on defense and take away what could have been two wide open shots. It is not just Theis' problem, it is a problem with most of the role players on this team. They really miss Hayward because he was a great decision-maker with the ball and could move it quickly in these kinds of situations. Smart will also probably help when he comes back healthy.

I kind of think currently point Tatum should be retired; especially if Brown isn't on the floor. In those scenarios let PP bring the ball up and run some action with Tatum to get the ball into a more advantageous position. You can still run the offense through him, but you won't be dangling that red meat in front of the defenses by having him walk the ball up the court, which is just an alert for defenses to double him.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
19,595
Agree with you that it's been better, my point is more that I think the team invested too much of their roster/cap space at the 5 - and didn't have enough for the wing. I don't know if it is fixable at this point, but I'd like to see them move one of DT/TL/TT for an upgrade at wing, and find / sign some 3rd stringer to be your emergency 5 that rarely plays (heck, Grant Williams can do that and he's already on the roster). Demarcus Cousins could even be that 3rd string C (not that I'm that high on him). Heck, it wouldn't surprise me if Andre Drummond gets bought out. I think this team would be better with 2 of DT/TL/TT splitting the minutes at the 5, and someone who's a more well rounded basketball player picking up the minutes that they are currently playing at the 4.
I get the thought process, but looking around the league, not much was available with the MLE at wing.

They have the TPE and buyouts to use there come deadline, and a TPE impact player is far more likely to be a wing than a big. I think it was fine to lock in a big they liked with the MLE, there was a good rotation guy there, and his salary is easy to use in a trade if needed. They definitely aren't investing too much roster space on the 5, they have 3 guys there, and given they play one of them at the 4 a good amount, that's not deep at all. There's a good case they are one injury away from being too shallow at the 5.

I also think assuming we can get buyouts is a mistake. There was a buyout already who would have been a good fit..... Batum, and he didn't even consider us.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
21,759
I feel like every night we see the same stuff, and it's just not working, so let's, you know, try something different.
In the broadcast I think it was three games ago, either Mike or Scal (I think it was Scal) said that Brad had brought back actions they haven't used in years to get more ball movement from side to side.

Also, on some of those zero assist games, JB did pass to open guys they missed the shot.
 

RorschachsMask

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 23, 2011
1,483
Lynn
In the broadcast I think it was three games ago, either Mike or Scal (I think it was Scal) said that Brad had brought back actions they haven't used in years to get more ball movement from side to side.

Also, on some of those zero assist games, JB did pass to open guys they missed the shot.
I’m not sure on the other game, but the Pistons and then Wizards loss, he had a combined 5 POTENTIAL assists, he wasn’t moving the ball at all. The Wizards game he caught the ball 41 times and passed it 19. Kemba caught it 64 times and passed it 49, Tatum caught it 35 times and passed it 40.

He’s been much, much better the last few games, but those 3 out of 4 games with 0 assists was bad, was his first stretch like that in two and a half years. He was being an enormous ball stopper lol, glad he turned it around.
 
Last edited:

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
19,508
Do you think he might be more happy with that role now? You know, since his other option is not being in the league.

Pick a different guy then if Dedmon isn't good enough to be your 11th man. John Henson. Ian Mahimni. Tyler Zeller. Alex Len was available for just over the minimum in the offseason, waived, went unclaimed, then signed for the minimum.

Pick your favorite. Any one of them is fine to be tall and sit at the end of the bench.
Dedmon is awful like horrifically can’t function in this league bad. The thing is we didn’t need a tall guy to sit at end of bench as we already have Tacko. We needed a big to play minutes against starting 5’s. Those other options are far inferior players. TT’s contract also created a potentially valuable salary slot to give Ainge greater flexibility at the deadline and this summer.
 

mcpickl

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 23, 2007
3,545
Dedmon is awful like horrifically can’t function in this league bad. The thing is we didn’t need a tall guy to sit at end of bench as we already have Tacko. We needed a big to play minutes against starting 5’s. Those other options are far inferior players. TT’s contract also created a potentially valuable salary slot to give Ainge greater flexibility at the deadline and this summer.
Again man, pick another guy to be your 11th man if Dedmon offends you so much.

Weird hill to die on. The minimum center you picked out of all the available options isn't good enough to be a fringe rotation guy!

Of course the guys I listed are all far inferior players. That's why they're available for the minimum while TT got the full MLE for two years. We've been doing this since the day TT signed. I think it made way more sense to spend that MLE, that also creates a potentially valuable salary slot to give Ainge greater flexibility at the deadline and this summer, on a wing than it did on a guy that can only play center when you already had Theis and RWill that can also only play center(or in Theis case, should only play center).

The point then, and now, is a MLE wing plus a minimum center who's a fringe rotation guy, is a better use of assets than adding a 3rd center only guy in Thompson and a minimum wing like Javonte who's a fringe rotation guy.

It made no sense to me then, it makes no sense to me now.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
10,468
Santa Monica
Again man, pick another guy to be your 11th man if Dedmon offends you so much.

Weird hill to die on. The minimum center you picked out of all the available options isn't good enough to be a fringe rotation guy!

Of course the guys I listed are all far inferior players. That's why they're available for the minimum while TT got the full MLE for two years. We've been doing this since the day TT signed. I think it made way more sense to spend that MLE, that also creates a potentially valuable salary slot to give Ainge greater flexibility at the deadline and this summer, on a wing than it did on a guy that can only play center when you already had Theis and RWill that can also only play center(or in Theis case, should only play center).

The point then, and now, is a MLE wing plus a minimum center who's a fringe rotation guy, is a better use of assets than adding a 3rd center only guy in Thompson and a minimum wing like Javonte who's a fringe rotation guy.

It made no sense to me then, it makes no sense to me now.
I know you're not a Kanter fan but would you take EK as the 3rd string beef center @$5MM + Bane (or another 2nd rounder)? with some scratch left over to add a vet (instead of Green)

Danny has whiffed badly in free agency the last 2 seasons
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
19,508
Again man, pick another guy to be your 11th man if Dedmon offends you so much.

Weird hill to die on. The minimum center you picked out of all the available options isn't good enough to be a fringe rotation guy!

Of course the guys I listed are all far inferior players. That's why they're available for the minimum while TT got the full MLE for two years. We've been doing this since the day TT signed. I think it made way more sense to spend that MLE, that also creates a potentially valuable salary slot to give Ainge greater flexibility at the deadline and this summer, on a wing than it did on a guy that can only play center when you already had Theis and RWill that can also only play center(or in Theis case, should only play center).

The point then, and now, is a MLE wing plus a minimum center who's a fringe rotation guy, is a better use of assets than adding a 3rd center only guy in Thompson and a minimum wing like Javonte who's a fringe rotation guy.

It made no sense to me then, it makes no sense to me now.
We are not privy to the conversations Ainge had regarding other players agreeing to come here or who they were.......but to call a guy who has started nearly every game while avg 23mph “a 3rd center only guy” shows you aren’t willing to discuss this logically.

Ainge was never going to enter this season with the unknown availability due to the pandemic having only Theis and TL as his bigs. That would have been negligent.
 

scottyno

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 7, 2008
7,309
We are not privy to the conversations Ainge had regarding other players agreeing to come here or who they were.......but to call a guy who has started nearly every game while avg 23mph “a 3rd center only guy” shows you aren’t willing to discuss this logically.

Ainge was never going to enter this season with the unknown availability due to the pandemic having only Theis and TL as his bigs. That would have been negligent.
Especially with TL having missed a lot of games due to injury in his career already
 

Jimbodandy

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
4,615
around the way
The immediate problem I see in regarding to lineups particularly that involve Tatum and neither Brown or Walker, is that the Celtics do not move the ball quickly enough to punish teams for doubling Tatum. This is the primary reason "point Tatum" hasn't worked out very well. Teams are free to double Tatum at the top of the key and even try and trap him at half court, and the Celtics don't move the ball quickly enough to find the open man before teams can scramble back into their base defense.
This. A thousand times this.

The trap on Tatum should create an advantage somewhere else for us most of the time, and it hardly ever does. Same happens when they trap Brown and Kemba. But Brown doesn't try to dribble through it as often and is marginally quicker to swing (though he sometimes floats the pass, negating the advantage). And Kemba, well that's just what happens with guys his size. His best bet is to dribble out of it, and sometimes he does.

I expect more out of Tatum because he's long as fuck and should be able to pass around and over those traps. This is a coaching problem imo. Teams should continue to do this to us as long as it works
 

Kliq

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 31, 2013
14,147
This. A thousand times this.

The trap on Tatum should create an advantage somewhere else for us most of the time, and it hardly ever does. Same happens when they trap Brown and Kemba. But Brown doesn't try to dribble through it as often and is marginally quicker to swing (though he sometimes floats the pass, negating the advantage). And Kemba, well that's just what happens with guys his size. His best bet is to dribble out of it, and sometimes he does.

I expect more out of Tatum because he's long as fuck and should be able to pass around and over those traps. This is a coaching problem imo. Teams should continue to do this to us as long as it works
From what I saw yesterday, it was not entirely Tatum's fault. He did get the ball out quickly on a number of occasions, but the issue was whoever he passed it too (like Theis) was too slow making the next pass to get the easy basket. With that being said, getting aggressively double-teamed at the NBA level is very difficult, and Tatum really only started seeing it towards the end of last season when he made his big leap forward before the All Star break. He is 22, and he should be able to figure it out with more experience. I think in the mean time, the Celtics are willingly playing into opponents hands when Tatum runs the point.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
19,595
I know you're not a Kanter fan but would you take EK as the 3rd string beef center @$5MM + Bane (or another 2nd rounder)? with some scratch left over to add a vet (instead of Green)

Danny has whiffed badly in free agency the last 2 seasons
Kanter had no value to this team, he's far too situationally unplayable on defense. TT is a solid big in far more matchups, and given TL's health and our lack of big depth that was a no go.

Beyond that, the decisions weren't made at the same time. Kanter was moved with the pick (which even pre-draft everyone agreed that the Celtics wouldn't use all of their 1sts unless one was Bolmaro) to create flexibility to possibly bring back Hayward, and to pursue a bunch of MLE guys (Ibaka, Harrell, Milsap) that chose to go elsewhere.

The argument that TT was some huge mistake has always been predicated on nonsense because it is always based on one of:
1. Why didn't we keep the pick over Thompson.... which wasn't actually an alternate option, they happened separately with a million variables happening between.
2. Why didn't we get.... (insert big who chose another team)
3. Why not get an MLE wing..... except look at the list, there were essentially none.

Once the pick was moved we were either keeping Hayward, trading Hayward for players, or using the MLE.
Once Hayward chose CHA, we were using the MLE, so we picked the guy Ainge thought best fit and was moveable once guys had decided to go elsewhere. Nobody has ever really come up with an actual player, who was available that they prefer, it's always either hypothetical players, or a guy who either signed before Hayward decided, or who picked some other team for contender or playing time reasons.
 

Imbricus

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 26, 2017
2,762
From what I saw yesterday, it was not entirely Tatum's fault.
Eh, maybe not entirely Tatum's fault, but I think a lot of it is. He seems awfully slow to pass out of those converging traps. Yeah, there might be a downstream problem (like he gets it to Theis, who is slow unloading it), but then that's on Theis. To me, the larger problem is the ball is too sticky with him; he should be whipping it around more. When Tatum's shot is falling, everyone forgives his ISO-heavy style. When it's not falling, you just want to scream at the TV, because he starts forcing things.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
10,468
Santa Monica
Kanter had no value to this team, he's far too situationally unplayable on defense. TT is a solid big in far more matchups, and given TL's health and our lack of big depth that was a no go.

Beyond that, the decisions weren't made at the same time. Kanter was moved with the pick (which even pre-draft everyone agreed that the Celtics wouldn't use all of their 1sts unless one was Bolmaro) to create flexibility to possibly bring back Hayward, and to pursue a bunch of MLE guys (Ibaka, Harrell, Milsap) that chose to go elsewhere.

The argument that TT was some huge mistake has always been predicated on nonsense because it is always based on one of:
1. Why didn't we keep the pick over Thompson.... which wasn't actually an alternate option, they happened separately with a million variables happening between.
2. Why didn't we get.... (insert big who chose another team)
3. Why not get an MLE wing..... except look at the list, there were essentially none.

Once the pick was moved we were either keeping Hayward, trading Hayward for players, or using the MLE.
Once Hayward chose CHA, we were using the MLE, so we picked the guy Ainge thought best fit and was moveable once guys had decided to go elsewhere. Nobody has ever really come up with an actual player, who was available that they prefer, it's always either hypothetical players, or a guy who either signed before Hayward decided, or who picked some other team for contender or playing time reasons.
Yea standard SoSH Theory Kanter is an unplayable player, it's borderline absurd. Portland isn't exactly upset starting him nightly, 4th most minutes on the 18-11 Western Conf Trailblazers. Somehow they have survived the Winter of Kanter :rolleyes:

For a place that prides its self on stats and advanced metrics, SoSH completely turns a blind eye to Kanter. I mean I can throw out 10 different stats from last season that say he's very playable at $5MM/yr as a bench/ beef Center.

Everyone on the planet knows he sucks in PnR, as a bench 5/11th man on the bench (which was mcpickl/HRBs talking point) he could be hidden and play effective minutes. Like all of last season.

Yea I'll stay with my bigger point, Danny has whiffed badly in FA over the last 2 seasons.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
19,595
Yea standard SoSH Theory Kanter is an unplayable player, it's borderline absurd. Portland isn't exactly upset starting him nightly, 4th most minutes on the 18-11 Western Conf Trailblazers. Somehow they have survived the Winter of Kanter :rolleyes:

For a place that prides its self on stats and advanced metrics, SoSH completely turns a blind eye to Kanter. I mean I can throw out 10 different stats from last season that say he's very playable at $5MM/yr as a bench/ beef Center.

Everyone on the planet knows he sucks in PnR, as a bench 5/11th man on the bench (which was mcpickl/HRBs talking point) he could be hidden and play effective minutes. Like all of last season.

Yea I'll stay with my bigger point, Danny has whiffed badly in FA over the last 2 seasons.
I mean, his defensive numbers are terrible this year and POR are giving up 117 points per 100 possessions when he's on the court. Making what is already one of the worst defenses in the league significantly worse.

The point is that last year didn't really work when push came to shove. They wanted a C who could play more minutes and defend more respectably without losing the rebounding.

The idea that in the offseason you could pencil in TL and Theis for 30+ minutes a night was ridiculous. If we were playing Kanter 20+ minutes our defense would be much worse.

Enes Kanter was not going to be part of this team, and nobody should want him to be. Especially since his flaws get exposed even more in the playoffs when teams actively hunt bad defenders in a way they don't in the regular season.

The idea that we should have kept Kanter, and given up on the full TPE so we could sign James Ennis or something to the minimum is ridiculous.

The pick was getting moved, there was no real reason to add a third 4 year rookie deal to this roster, and getting the chance to make a run at Ibaka and Milsap was all the reason you need to dump Kanter who showed last year that he just doesn't have the versatility to contribute in the playoffs.
 

Devizier

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 3, 2000
13,832
Somewhere
I don't follow the free agency / trade market closely enough to toss out a name, but maybe there was someone else they could have rostered who could have slotted in third in the rotation rather than signing a guy for two years that's started nearly 70% of the 647 NBA games they've played and averaged nearly 28 mpg.
The reality is that $18M/2 years doesn’t get you much on the free agency market unless you are attracting veteran ring chasers (really only possible for prohibitive favorites) or getting lucky with euro signings, as the Celtics did with Theis.

I would surely have preferred Ibaka, but there’s no way he favors the Celtics over the Clippers at even money.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
10,468
Santa Monica
The idea that in the offseason you could pencil in TL and Theis for 30+ minutes a night was ridiculous. If we were playing Kanter 20+ minutes our defense would be much worse.

Enes Kanter was not going to be part of this team, and nobody should want him to be. Especially since his flaws get exposed even more in the playoffs when teams actively hunt bad defenders in a way they don't in the regular season.

The idea that we should have kept Kanter, and given up on the full TPE so we could sign James Ennis or something to the minimum is ridiculous.

The pick was getting moved, there was no real reason to add a third 4 year rookie deal to this roster, and getting the chance to make a run at Ibaka and Milsap was all the reason you need to dump Kanter who showed last year that he just doesn't have the versatility to contribute in the playoffs.
30+ minutes from Theis/TL would be ridiculous in a somewhat meaningless regular season? Theis averaged 24mpg last season.

Brad couldn't find 10-15 minutes for TimeLord? who was showing us a lot in the bubble.

I really didn't think the Center position or Kanter was the difference from making the Finals. I just didn't see a problem there. I didn't care for Danny focusing on the 5 in the off-season. Just to stay on point, I haven't cared for Danny's signings over the last 2 seasons (which he has pretty much admitted to whiffing on a few days ago)

I don't need to go bad on Tristan. Thompson is a high effort/good attitude guy, but he isn't threatening any BIG at the rim. He is probably our most defensively and offensively challenged Center. Anything more than 10-15mpg as our 3rd string Center is silly. That's all he should be playing when Marcus gets healthy.
 
Last edited:

chilidawg

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 22, 2015
2,566
Cultural hub of the universe
The immediate problem I see in regarding to lineups particularly that involve Tatum and neither Brown or Walker, is that the Celtics do not move the ball quickly enough to punish teams for doubling Tatum. This is the primary reason "point Tatum" hasn't worked out very well. Teams are free to double Tatum at the top of the key and even try and trap him at half court, and the Celtics don't move the ball quickly enough to find the open man before teams can scramble back into their base defense.
This seemed to be the case last night, but Tatum and the bench mob have been pretty good season long. Tatum/Semi/RW/PP/Teague is a +37/100 over 23 minutes. Semi/Tatum/GW/RW/PP is +16 over 17 minutes. Granted that's generally against other teams 2nd units. Season long +/- numbers have Tatum and those bench guys (excepting GW) at the top of the team list.
 
Last edited:

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 24, 2002
35,221
Enes Kanter is only starting for Portland because of the relentless carnage visited on their big rotation. Blazers fans are right back to where they were two seasons ago - and where many Cs fans were last year- watching Enes Kanter get relentlessly attacked on defense. Poor Enes seems like a wonderful teammate and charming guy - he is really elite at certain skills too. But Kanter on the perimeter is roadkill and his help defense is a felony in most jurisdictions.

If Boston's problem is that we don't have enough of what Kanter brings, Ainge should be institutionalized post haste.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
10,468
Santa Monica
Enes Kanter is only starting for Portland because of the relentless carnage visited on their big rotation. Blazers fans are right back to where they were two seasons ago - and where many Cs fans were last year- watching Enes Kanter get relentlessly attacked on defense. Poor Enes seems like a wonderful teammate and charming guy - he is really elite at certain skills too. But Kanter on the perimeter is roadkill and his help defense is a felony in most jurisdictions.

If Boston's problem is that we don't have enough of what Kanter brings, Ainge should be institutionalized post haste.
Starting Tristan Thompson, as your 4, guarding Kevin Durant on the perimeter, in the 2nd game of the season probably put Danny pretty damn close.

3rd string Center shouldn't have been the big score in the offseason YMMV
 

Kliq

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 31, 2013
14,147
This seemed to be the case last night, but Tatum and the bench mob have been pretty good season long. Tatum/Semi/RW/PP/Teague is a +37/100 over 23 minutes. Semi/Tatum/GW/RW/PP is +16 over 17 minutes. Granted that's generally against other teams 2nd units. Season long +/- numbers have Tatum and those bench guys (excepting GW) as at the top of the team list.
But in lineups with Teague and PP, how often is Tatum bringing the ball up? I think that kind of action gives teams the green light to trap Tatum 40 feet from the basket.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 24, 2002
35,221
Starting Tristan Thompson, as your 4, guarding Kevin Durant on the perimeter, in the 2nd game of the season probably put Danny pretty damn close.

3rd string Center shouldn't have been the big score in the offseason YMMV
Imo, people are reacting too much to individual game results. TT could guard Kyrie or Harden regularly in game two or game thirty and its unlikely to have an impact on how this team - who is missing their best defender and one of their best playmakers - does in the playoffs. I get seeding matters but at the end of the day, the Celtics playoff prospects won't hinge on their big rotation as much as who is in it. And if they have the same bigs, wings and ballhandlers, all of this angst is wasted. They will be highly unlikely to advance to the finals.

Thompson's signing is definitely eye opening given that this team needs wings more imo but I wonder if all the uncertainty and rapid decision making around FA caused teams like Boston who aren't true contenders yet to scramble when all the good players were taken off the board.

Frankly, the signing that has hurt the most is Teague just in terms of minutes and production. If they cut him tomorrow would anyone be surprised?
 
Last edited:

reggiecleveland

sublime
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Mar 5, 2004
23,011
Saskatoon Canada
Why can't they run a PnR with Jaylen with the ball in hand and Tatum setting the pick or vice versa, and try to get two scorers involved. Jaylen may be the best passer on the team right now, besides PP (amazingly enough), and having him stand in the corner twiddling his thumbs just doesn't seem like the best role, and yet it happens over and over again, especially in the last 15 minutes of each game. I could go on and on about this, but it's just so damn predictable that it doesn't surprise me that it doesn't work for 48 minutes.
There are a ton of options off the ballscreen, for example Brown and Tatum will set ballscreen then flare (fake screen, bust across the top).
There a few big problems with tatum Brown ballscreen
1. The other teams two best wing defenderes are involved, a switch gains you little
2. You need a big out there (i am wonder how many sub 6 footers are in this forum, the amount hate directed at bigs) and none of the bigs can shoot, I mean I guess Theis can spread out, but every coah is going to live with a Theis # while his bets shot blocker defends whichever J is coming off the screen,
3. Similar to above, who else is spotting up? YOu have taken your two best 3 point shooters and thrown them into the pick and roll.
4, Neither guy is a great post guy rolling to the hoop, plus remember the big is helping, so they probably pop, fade, etc and guys switch and stay home.
5. They are setting a lot of ballscreen for Brown, and he is drilling 3s effectively. Doris (how do people hate her?) mentioned Brown's numbers shooting 3s off the ballscreen have jumped a ton.
6. Brown and tatum need to get catches withg somebody else coming off the screen. Their defenders stick to them, creating space the rest of the team hasn't taken advantage of enough.

Also:
there is no X and O that makes up for shitty shooting, lack of playmakers, until somebody else plays better teams will key on the Js and they will be gassed in the 4th and the team will suck. t
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
19,595
30+ minutes from Theis/TL would be ridiculous in a somewhat meaningless regular season? Theis averaged 24mpg last season.

Brad couldn't find 10-15 minutes for TimeLord? who was showing us a lot in the bubble.

I really didn't think the Center position or Kanter was the difference from making the Finals. I just didn't see a problem there. I didn't care for Danny focusing on the 5 in the off-season. Just to stay on point, I haven't cared for Danny's signings over the last 2 seasons (which he has pretty much admitted to whiffing on a few days ago)

I don't need to go bad on Tristan. Thompson is a high effort/good attitude guy, but he isn't threatening any BIG at the rim. He is probably our most defensively and offensively challenged Center. Anything more than 10-15mpg as our 3rd string Center is silly. That's all he should be playing when Marcus gets healthy.
Not 30 combined 30 each. We're playing the 3 bigs 63 minutes combined, if you're not having another real big, given Theis's issues staying on the court you'd be counting on 25-30 minutes minimum from TL.
Robert Williams had shown flashes no doubt.... he also played 388 total minutes last year for various reasons, and was returning from a recurring hip issue.
A 3rd big was a very significant need, and it needed to be one who could play starter type minutes every night if one of the others went down.

As to FA the last 2 years, yeah it's not been great. Teague was a complete miss it looks like, and last year was a mixed bag... Theis a very good signing, Kanter mediocre to poor, WAnamaker fine I guess for the minimum, Poirier a miss.

I don't think he's been particularly good, but that's what happens when you're scraping around for cheap depth. Kemba is more complicated, he was a high risk move that looks like it won't pan out, but at the time it seemed like a good move with the assumption you'd get at least 2-3 top end years before he broke down, and given the 1 time shot at a max type player and what was available.

I think Thompson was given the circumstances a good signing. He fits an area of need, he's a good lockerroom guy, and the other options were nothing much, it was use it or nothing with the MLE. I'd love it if we could have gotten an impact wing with the MLE.... we couldn't. There wasn't one out there willing to sign in Boston for the MLE to come off the bench.

To me the bigger problems are turning the Hayward and Kyrie pairing into a broken down Kemba and whatever (not anywhere near as good as Hayward) player they use the TPE on, and the rookies not developing. Now some of that is out of his control, but at the same time maybe you trade Kyrie as soon as it's clear it isn't working.

I just don't get the criticisms of the Thompson signing when it was a clear area of need at the time, and nobody has yet put forward a better option that doesn't involve foreknowledge of how things would shake out.
 

chilidawg

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 22, 2015
2,566
Cultural hub of the universe
Hot take, discuss: Brown and Tatum aren't playing as well as they were earlier in the year and the team results have been disappointing as a result. Brown's shooting especially has taken a dive (not surprising, it was awfully damn good to start the year).
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
10,468
Santa Monica
Not 30 combined 30 each. We're playing the 3 bigs 63 minutes combined, if you're not having another real big, given Theis's issues staying on the court you'd be counting on 25-30 minutes minimum from TL.
Robert Williams had shown flashes no doubt.... he also played 388 total minutes last year for various reasons, and was returning from a recurring hip issue.
A 3rd big was a very significant need, and it needed to be one who could play starter type minutes every night if one of the others went down.

As to FA the last 2 years, yeah it's not been great. Teague was a complete miss it looks like, and last year was a mixed bag... Theis a very good signing, Kanter mediocre to poor, WAnamaker fine I guess for the minimum, Poirier a miss.

I don't think he's been particularly good, but that's what happens when you're scraping around for cheap depth. Kemba is more complicated, he was a high risk move that looks like it won't pan out, but at the time it seemed like a good move with the assumption you'd get at least 2-3 top end years before he broke down, and given the 1 time shot at a max type player and what was available.

I think Thompson was given the circumstances a good signing. He fits an area of need, he's a good lockerroom guy, and the other options were nothing much, it was use it or nothing with the MLE. I'd love it if we could have gotten an impact wing with the MLE.... we couldn't. There wasn't one out there willing to sign in Boston for the MLE to come off the bench.

To me the bigger problems are turning the Hayward and Kyrie pairing into a broken down Kemba and whatever (not anywhere near as good as Hayward) player they use the TPE on, and the rookies not developing. Now some of that is out of his control, but at the same time maybe you trade Kyrie as soon as it's clear it isn't working.

I just don't get the criticisms of the Thompson signing when it was a clear area of need at the time, and nobody has yet put forward a better option that doesn't involve foreknowledge of how things would shake out.
48 minutes is all you want from your mix of cheap Centers. Anything else cooked up beyond that is gawd awful roster construction (or some goalpost moving)

TL, Theis, TT should never play anything other than 5 unless Cade Cunningham is the end game
 
Last edited:

mwonow

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 4, 2005
5,856
The immediate problem I see in regarding to lineups particularly that involve Tatum and neither Brown or Walker, is that the Celtics do not move the ball quickly enough to punish teams for doubling Tatum...

I kind of think currently point Tatum should be retired; especially if Brown isn't on the floor. In those scenarios let PP bring the ball up and run some action with Tatum to get the ball into a more advantageous position. You can still run the offense through him, but you won't be dangling that red meat in front of the defenses by having him walk the ball up the court, which is just an alert for defenses to double him.
This seemed to be the case last night, but Tatum and the bench mob have been pretty good season long. Tatum/Semi/RW/PP/Teague is a +37/100 over 23 minutes. Semi/Tatum/GW/RW/PP is +16 over 17 minutes. Granted that's generally against other teams 2nd units. Season long +/- numbers have Tatum and those bench guys (excepting GW) at the top of the team list.
It seems like this is a coach's decision issue - if the problem is having Tatum or the point, or the ball doesn't move fast enough once it leaves Tatum, you can address both with more PP+Tatum. CBS may have other reasons to not go that route, but if "we need another point and/or somebody who can take a pass from point Tatum and move it quickly to the open man" is the problem, PP seems like a pretty clear and available answer.