All-time great Patriots cornerbacks

gryoung

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The Gilmore signing certainly has been terrific for the Pats. He had a great season last year and is having a spectacular one now. Certainly All - Pro and a contender for Defensive POTY.

This got me thinking who are the best Pats CBs of all-time, my list is:

Mike Haynes
Ty Law
Raymond Clayborn/Stephon Gilmore

Haynes was the best. Maybe the best of all time anywhere. HOF

Law was a hard-tackling shut-down corner for many seasons. HOF

Clayborn and Gilmore, for me, are interchangeable in the #3 position. Maybe a slight edge to Gilmore.
 

Mooch

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Gilmore is quickly moving up the ranks for me. I'm not sure that Ty Law ever had a peak as high as what Gilmore is doing this season. He's been Revis-esque all year.
 

tims4wins

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Gilmore is quickly moving up the ranks for me. I'm not sure that Ty Law ever had a peak as high as what Gilmore is doing this season. He's been Revis-esque all year.
This echos my thoughts. Law was excellent from 1995-2004 and had some very good peaks, but I think I take peak Gilmore over peak Law.

And while it is difficult to compare across eras, Law was extremely effective with his physical style. I think Gilmore would be more successful playing in Law's era than Law would be in today's game.
 

InstaFace

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Agreed, recency bias be damned, I'd take Gilmore. My recollection is that Law gambled on making plays more, and thus gave up a higher completion % against. And also that he could be beat for speed (though having Rodney Harrison over the top surely must've helped those last few years). Gilmore can't keep up with Tyreek Hill - who can? - but against just about anyone, he can make up ground if he needs to, he's got a burst I can't recall out of another CB.

I never saw Haynes so I'm going to take that on advisement.
 

BigSoxFan

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I need more Haynes info. Before my time. Because I can’t see how anyone could be better than what Gilmore is showing this year. Haynes essentially played in the dead ball era of passing games. Gilmore’s environment is far more challenging than 1970s football.
 

mauf

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Law was never in the “best CB in the league” discussion the way Gilmore is now, or Revis was during his season here — but in fairness to Law, his career overlapped with two all-time greats (first Deion, later Champ Bailey), who were consensus choices for that honor; I don’t think there’s a similar talent playing today.

I’d still rate Law as the best CB in franchise history, but another couple years by Gilmore at his current level (which I realize isn’t likely at his age) would vault him into the #1 spot.
 

Super Nomario

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Law was never in the “best CB in the league” discussion the way Gilmore is now, or Revis was during his season here — but in fairness to Law, his career overlapped with two all-time greats (first Deion, later Champ Bailey), who were consensus choices for that honor; I don’t think there’s a similar talent playing today.

I’d still rate Law as the best CB in franchise history, but another couple years by Gilmore at his current level (which I realize isn’t likely at his age) would vault him into the #1 spot.
Law had two All-Pro seasons, which means at his best he was in that class. I think he's penalized a little here because a lot of his best seasons were pre-dynasty. His 1998 was ridiculous.
 

loshjott

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I need more Haynes info. Before my time. Because I can’t see how anyone could be better than what Gilmore is showing this year. Haynes essentially played in the dead ball era of passing games. Gilmore’s environment is far more challenging than 1970s football.
In the "dead ball" 1970s, Mike Haynes had 28 INTs over 7 seasons with the Pats. Gilmore needs 2 more this season to match Haynes' high of 8 in 1976. That would also match Haynes' average of 4 per season (for both I'm just counting seasons in NE). Pro football ref does not have tackles or passes defensed stats for Haynes' era so can't compare those.

Haynes was the best of his era; his national accolades did not come until he went to Raiders and won a Super Bowl there.

He was also a great punt returner which is not really relevant here...
 

JokersWildJIMED

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Haynes was the best and it was a sad day when he left. Clayborn was solid and stayed around for awhile, but certainly not on the same level as Haynes, or even Law. Samuel was critical to three SB runs, led the league in interceptions in 06, and was considered the best cornerback in the league when he left. He was fantastic.
 

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Haynes was the best and it was a sad day when he left. Clayborn was solid and stayed around for awhile, but certainly not on the same level as Haynes, or even Law. Samuel was critical to three SB runs, led the league in interceptions in 06, and was considered the best cornerback in the league when he left. He was fantastic.
Uhhhh...wut? At no point was he ever considered the best CB in the league and he had very little to do with 20032004 SBs. He was most certainly not "critical".
 

reggiecleveland

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Were not Haynes best years with the Raiders?
But, I certainly recall talking heads saying Lester Hayes was 2nd best Corner in FB, and second best on his own team, based on Haynes time in NE..
 

BaseballJones

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Top 3 Pats' CBs of all time are easy. In no particular order, it's Law, Haynes, and Gilmore. Revis gets a nod as being at that level, but he only played one year here.

They've had other quality CBs too: JMac, Butler, Samuel, Clayborn, Lippett, etc.
 

InstaFace

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I’d still rate Law as the best CB in franchise history, but another couple years by Gilmore at his current level (which I realize isn’t likely at his age) would vault him into the #1 spot.
Gilmore joined us in his age 27 season and is now completing his 3rd season with the team.

Law was here from ages 21-30, and ignoring his limited rookie season and his injured final season in 2004, had 8 first-rate seasons with us including 3 all-timers (98, 2001 and 2003 where he had an AV of SEVENTEEN which would've been Revis's 2nd best season). He then left and had 3 more productive seasons for NYJ (2005, 10 INTs!) and KC (2006, 2007), meaning he was still a good-to-great player through age 33.

If Gilmore re-signs after his deal, and can stay injury-free and productive as long as Law did (age 33), he'll have had 7 good seasons here. I dunno about "at his current level", but Gilmore seems to certainly have a shot to become a toss-up with Law if he stays here and stays healthy and productive.

And if he does that, frankly, he'll have a shot to match Law at getting into Canton. He's already a champion with a signature title-winning moment (he might not deserve full credit for the SB-clinching INT, but he had several spectacular plays in all 3 playoff games that more than make him deserving of it), and as long as Brady and Belichick are here, he'll at least have a shot at another title.
 

Granite Sox

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I need more Haynes info. Before my time. Because I can’t see how anyone could be better than what Gilmore is showing this year. Haynes essentially played in the dead ball era of passing games. Gilmore’s environment is far more challenging than 1970s football.
Haynes locked horns with the best of that era (in no particular order Stallworth, Swann, Cliff Branch, Joiner, Drew Pearson, Lofton, Ken Burrough, John Jefferson, Wes Chandler, Isaac Curtis). Not exactly Robby Anderson, Taylor Boyd, or John Brown.

Don't sleep on Ray Clayborn:
He was one tough hombre, and a helluva kickoff returner as well (I mention in comparison to Haynes' punt return skills. I think Haynes was the first to ever return a punt for a touchdown in Patriots history).

Haynes was smooth, agile, and long. Originally a WR at Arizona State, but converted to CB because he was behind John Jefferson on the depth chart (as mentioned by Coach Bill on the NFL 100 team selection show).

gryoung's initial ranking is correct:
  1. Haynes
  2. Law
  3. Gilmore/Clayborn

Asante Samuel couldn't carry any of the aforementioned CBs' jocks.
 

BigSoxFan

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Haynes locked horns with the best of that era (in no particular order Stallworth, Swann, Cliff Branch, Joiner, Drew Pearson, Lofton, Ken Burrough, John Jefferson, Wes Chandler, Isaac Curtis). Not exactly Robby Anderson, Taylor Boyd, or John Brown.

Don't sleep on Ray Clayborn:
He was one tough hombre, and a helluva kickoff returner as well (I mention in comparison to Haynes' punt return skills. I think Haynes was the first to ever return a punt for a touchdown in Patriots history).

Haynes was smooth, agile, and long. Originally a WR at Arizona State, but converted to CB because he was behind John Jefferson on the depth chart (as mentioned by Coach Bill on the NFL 100 team selection show).

gryoung's initial ranking is correct:
  1. Haynes
  2. Law
  3. Gilmore/Clayborn

Asante Samuel couldn't carry any of the aforementioned CBs' jocks.
Thanks. How do you think Haynes’ game would have translated to the rules in place today? This is why I put Gilmore’s peak over Law’s. Gilmore isn’t even allowed to breath on guys whereas Law was allowed to be far more physical.

Very interesting discussion.
 

Super Nomario

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Uhhhh...wut? At no point was he ever considered the best CB in the league and he had very little to do with 20032004 SBs. He was most certainly not "critical".
He was a really good third corner in 2003 and 2004 and then started after Law went down in 2004. He led the league in INT (10) and PD (24) in 2006 and then was First-Team All-Pro in 2007. He wound up with 5 INT in 14 career playoff games with the Patriots, 3 returned for TD. He was more of a zone playmaker than a shutdown guy like Law or Gilmore (or Revis' 2014), but he was a lot better than he's generally credited for here.
 

E5 Yaz

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Haynes was a unanimous selection to the NFL All 100 team. The debate in here is for No. 2 on
 

Shaky Walton

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Asante Samuel couldn't carry any of the aforementioned CBs' jocks.
True.

And he, fairly or unfairly, gets docked for not making a tough but makeable pick that would have sealed a SB win/19-0.

As to Revis, his career performance arguably places him at Number 1, but he was on the relative downside in NE; still terrific, but not Law, Haynes or Gilmore level, and not really very close.
 
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McBride11

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He was a really good third corner in 2003 and 2004 and then started after Law went down in 2004. He led the league in INT (10) and PD (24) in 2006 and then was First-Team All-Pro in 2007. He wound up with 5 INT in 14 career playoff games with the Patriots, 3 returned for TD. He was more of a zone playmaker than a shutdown guy like Law or Gilmore (or Revis' 2014), but he was a lot better than he's generally credited for here.
Asante probably gets tainted in Pats history by the drop in the Scottish Game. He holds that ball and the 2007 team is the greatest of all time, secured by Asante's pick.

Oddly he was also the guy that got beat against the Panthers SB (rookie year?) by ? Proehl that led to the game tying TD.

He was still a fantastic CB, but recency (Gilmore) and history (Law) put them ahead of him in my mind (Haynes before my time).
 

Kliq

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Haynes was a unanimous selection to the NFL All 100 team. The debate in here is for No. 2 on
Yeah but that list is trash.

Gilmore is certainly a better CB than Haynes; the rules greatly favored CBs in Haynes' era. Whether or not Gilmore is as dominant in 2019 as Haynes was in his prime is up for debate.
 

BaseballJones

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He was a really good third corner in 2003 and 2004 and then started after Law went down in 2004. He led the league in INT (10) and PD (24) in 2006 and then was First-Team All-Pro in 2007. He wound up with 5 INT in 14 career playoff games with the Patriots, 3 returned for TD. He was more of a zone playmaker than a shutdown guy like Law or Gilmore (or Revis' 2014), but he was a lot better than he's generally credited for here.
Totally agree on that. It's not a discredit to Samuel that he isn't on the level of Law, Gilmore, Revis, and Haynes. Samuel was an excellent NFL corner, by almost any measure. Just not an all-time great.
 

E5 Yaz

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Yeah but that list is trash.

Gilmore is certainly a better CB than Haynes; the rules greatly favored CBs in Haynes' era. Whether or not Gilmore is as dominant in 2019 as Haynes was in his prime is up for debate.
Age bias on my part ... was really a fan of Haynes. I don't know if "clearly" is fair (I think Haynes would have been stellar under any rules).
 

Over Guapo Grande

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InstaFace

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Yeah but that list is trash.

Gilmore is certainly a better CB than Haynes; the rules greatly favored CBs in Haynes' era. Whether or not Gilmore is as dominant in 2019 as Haynes was in his prime is up for debate.
I think the only fair way to judge these guys across eras is to look at how they did vs their peers, given the rules and environment of the time. Who's to say how each of them would have adjusted to the rules and competition (and training, and nutrition, and coaching, yadda yadda) in each other's eras? X number of interceptions doesn't carry between eras, but awards and recognition does.
 

Van Everyman

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I rate Samuel lower largely because I thought he was a pretty poor tackler. Gilmore on the other hand is exceptional.
 

Granite Sox

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Thanks. How do you think Haynes’ game would have translated to the rules in place today? This is why I put Gilmore’s peak over Law’s. Gilmore isn’t even allowed to breath on guys whereas Law was allowed to be far more physical.

Very interesting discussion.
Based on Haynes' athleticism and background as a receiver, I think his game would translate better to today's game vs. other CBs of the '70s and early '80s. By way of comparison, Haynes was not a mugger like Mel Blount (and I loved Mel Blount). For a more contemporary comp, his physical talent is more like Jalen Ramsay with better hands and a quieter mouth.

Tale of the tape:
  • Mel Blount: 6'3"/205 (gigantic for a CB)
  • Mike Haynes: 6'2"/192
  • Jalen Ramsay: 6'1"/194
I have to disagree with Kliq's opinion that "Gilmore is certainly" better than Haynes.
Haynes was a unanimous selection to the NFL All 100 team. The debate in here is for No. 2 on
I'm more in line with E5 Yaz on this one, though Gilmore has been exceptional this year.
 

Hoya81

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While not on the level of a Law/Haynes/Gilmore, Maurice Hurst was a pretty effective corner who had the misfortune of playing mostly on the awful pre-Parcells teams. He had a great year in ‘94 (7 ints, 2 sacks) before getting hurt in ‘95 and never playing again.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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He was a really good third corner in 2003 and 2004 and then started after Law went down in 2004. He led the league in INT (10) and PD (24) in 2006 and then was First-Team All-Pro in 2007. He wound up with 5 INT in 14 career playoff games with the Patriots, 3 returned for TD. He was more of a zone playmaker than a shutdown guy like Law or Gilmore (or Revis' 2014), but he was a lot better than he's generally credited for here.
Not disputing he was a very good CB, I just don't find him critical to winning in 03/04; nice complimentary piece, yes. As you say, never a shutdown corner.

Does 1st team all-pro count as best CB? Would you settle for "one of the two best" ?

ALL_PRO_SELECTION
2007 1st Tm CB Associated Press
2007 1st Tm Pro Football Writers
2007 1st Tm Sporting News

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/SamuAs20.htm
Fair enough. I'll retract that portion. Still don't think he belongs in the conversation.
 

BusRaker

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This got me thinking who are the best Pats CBs of all-time, my list is:

Mike Haynes
Raymond Clayborn
Ty Law
Stephon Gilmore
I'd put Clayborn above Law. Maybe there is bias in that he was the only reason (well perhaps Andre Tippett as well) for most of a decade
 

BaseballJones

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In fact, Talib, though he played well for NE, suffered two very untimely injuries that probably cost the Pats dearly in two straight AFCCGs.
 

lexrageorge

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Haynes and Law are in my first tier, with Gilmore rapidly approaching that level. Clayborne should also be named in that same group, although he was not as good as Haynes.

Talib heads the next tier with Ronnie Lippett, Asante Samuel, et al., although his tenure was relatively short. Revis was very good in his one year here, but he was not vintage Revis Island by that time either.

On the other side of the coin, was there a starting Patriots CB as bad as Chris Canty?
 

tims4wins

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Wasn't there a play where he was in on a sack as part of a CB blitz, then he started dancing, not realizing the QB had fumbled? And the offense was able to recover? I have a faint memory of WEEI playing "everybody dance now" later that week, probably on the Big Show.
 

Old Fart Tree

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Haynes and Law are in my first tier, with Gilmore rapidly approaching that level. Clayborne should also be named in that same group, although he was not as good as Haynes.

Talib heads the next tier with Ronnie Lippett, Asante Samuel, et al., although his tenure was relatively short. Revis was very good in his one year here, but he was not vintage Revis Island by that time either.

On the other side of the coin, was there a starting Patriots CB as bad as Chris Canty?
No.

No, there was not.
 

Saints Rest

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Haynes and Law are in my first tier, with Gilmore rapidly approaching that level. Clayborne should also be named in that same group, although he was not as good as Haynes.

Talib heads the next tier with Ronnie Lippett, Asante Samuel, et al., although his tenure was relatively short. Revis was very good in his one year here, but he was not vintage Revis Island by that time either.

On the other side of the coin, was there a starting Patriots CB as bad as Chris Canty?
Duane Starks.
 

Super Nomario

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Talib heads the next tier with Ronnie Lippett, Asante Samuel, et al., although his tenure was relatively short. Revis was very good in his one year here, but he was not vintage Revis Island by that time either.
I think their subsequent seasons have colored impressions of Talib and Revis. Revis did nothing after leaving NE, but he was outstanding with the Patriots. He wasn't the on-ball playmaker some of these other guys were, but he was a lockdown man defender and could match up against almost any body type (for instance, he matched up on both A.J. Green and Doug Baldwin). He was first-team all-pro in 2014. Talib has gone on to a much better post-Patriots career, but he was just starting to break out in NE after a spotty career with the Bucs; he was more up-and-down with the Patriots. At his best, Talib was more of a ballhawk than Revis, but he wasn't as versatile and he always had a little more boom-and-bust to his game.
 

Deathofthebambino

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For me, it's Ty Law, hands down. Think about it this way, if it weren't for Ty Law, Peyton Manning probably has 1, maybe more, Super Bowl rings. He picked off Manning 9 times in his career (2 of which were with KC in one playoff game), including 3 in one playoff game for the Pats (so a total of 5 times in the playoffs), and another 4-5 in the regular season. He owned Manning in the early 2000's.

Gilmore is having a historically good season, but other guys have done that too. Give me 4-5 more great seasons before I can put him in the conversation with Ty Law as the greatest Patriot CB ever. Mike Haynes was great too, but as others have mentioned, it was a different game. Shit, one of the reasons it is a different game is because they literally changed the rules due to Ty Law.
 

Euclis20

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He's got less than three years here, but if Gilmore wins DPOY (seems to be a real possibility) you could make a decent argument he jumps to the top of the list. Multiple All Pros, super bowl winning interception, AND the first Patriot to win defensive player of the year? That's a pretty good resume that may overcome his relative newness to the team.
 

Ale Xander

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Haynes was before my time.

Law and Gilmore 1A and 1B. I'd say Law was the better tackler and, partly by the newer rules, Gilmore the better pure cover guy (some 2 day recency bias at play too)

Asante was way way way worse than either of those two.

I'd probably rank:
1A Law
1B Gilmore


3 Clayborn
4. end of career Revis
5 Asante Samuel
6. Butler
7. Lippett

too many penalties division:
8. Browner
9. Talib
10. Otis Smith


999. Sterling Moore

Not evaluated due to age: Haynes
 

BaseballJones

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Hijacking the thread a little...going with my all-time Pats' defensive team. Gonna run a 3-4 due to the outstanding linebackers they've had.

DE Seymour
NT Wilfork
DE McGinest
OLB Tippett
ILB Nelson
ILB Bruschi
OLB Vrabel
CB Haynes
CB Gilmore
S Milloy
S McCourty

Lots of other worthy players to be considered at all these positions, and I don't mean to disparage any of them by not putting them on this team. Obviously good football minds could disagree with many of these choices at almost all these positions. Alternatives that immediately come to mind: CB Law, CB Revis, S James, LB Hightower, DE Chandler Jones, DE Julius Adams, LB Mayo, LB Buoniconti, CB Clayborn.
 

Mooch

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No.

No, there was not.
I think David Pool gives him a run for his money. He was terrible during the McPherson era. Couldn't cover anybody.

Speaking of former Patriot CBs, want to feel old? My company just hired Steve Israel's daughter.