Who thinks the other 29 managers suck more on some kind of absolute scale?
Or, as a second question, that Cora is the best fit for this team/org, because the Yankees currently have an idiot at the helm?
Alex Cora-- what do we have here? Perhaps the best manager in baseball.
- Thread starter Stanley Steamer
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Or, as a second question, that Cora is the best fit for this team/org, because the Yankees currently have an idiot at the helm?
It's more than just the manager - it's his staff and organizational backup. Given that, Cash has been handed a golden opportunity to shine and he does do a lot of in-game manipulation - a product of his roster. Melvin is a perennial Manager of the Year candidate.
What do those two have in common? Low payrolls, low expectations, great opportunities for game strategy...and, they're really good considering how their teams perform.
What I can't figure out is how their coaching staffs compare to other teams. That's a tough call.
What do those two have in common? Low payrolls, low expectations, great opportunities for game strategy...and, they're really good considering how their teams perform.
What I can't figure out is how their coaching staffs compare to other teams. That's a tough call.
I don't have a dog in this fight, and think Cora is an acceptable manager who needs to put his best foot forward next year. But just for fun, "in a vacuum", I would probably prefer Kevin Cash, Francona, Craig Counsell, and Baldelli. No particular order. Terry is obvious to me, Baldelli and Counsell have done a lot with less resources than most in a short period of time and other than removing Snell in game 6 last year I love Cash and think he's more or less perfect the Red Sox/Bloom.
Here is the current list of AL managers:
Brandon Hyde
Tony Larussa
Demarlo Hale (Tito)
AJ Hinch
Dusty Baker
Mike Matheny
Joe Madden
Rocco Baldelli
Aaron Boone
Bob Melvin
Scott Servais
Kevin Cash
Chris Woodward
Charlie Montoyo
I'd prefer Cash straight up. Bob Melvin is solid. No one else even tempts me. Lots of retreads.
And the NL:
Torey Lovullo
Brian Snitker
David Ross
David Bell
Bud Black
Dave Roberts
Don Mattingly
Craig Counsell
Luis Rojas
Joe Girardi
Derek Shelton
Jayce Tingler
Gabe Kapler
Dave Martinez
Craig Counsell seems to have a handle on things, but they haven't won anything. Were any of us clamoring for Gabe Kapler this off-season? Joe Girardi is a good manager. Does anyone want him here? The David Ross sheen seemed to wear off quickly.
Honestly, we have it great. I can see the argument that he should have stayed black listed, but it's tough to argue there are 5 to 10 managers clearly better than him.
Brandon Hyde
Tony Larussa
Demarlo Hale (Tito)
AJ Hinch
Dusty Baker
Mike Matheny
Joe Madden
Rocco Baldelli
Aaron Boone
Bob Melvin
Scott Servais
Kevin Cash
Chris Woodward
Charlie Montoyo
I'd prefer Cash straight up. Bob Melvin is solid. No one else even tempts me. Lots of retreads.
And the NL:
Torey Lovullo
Brian Snitker
David Ross
David Bell
Bud Black
Dave Roberts
Don Mattingly
Craig Counsell
Luis Rojas
Joe Girardi
Derek Shelton
Jayce Tingler
Gabe Kapler
Dave Martinez
Craig Counsell seems to have a handle on things, but they haven't won anything. Were any of us clamoring for Gabe Kapler this off-season? Joe Girardi is a good manager. Does anyone want him here? The David Ross sheen seemed to wear off quickly.
Honestly, we have it great. I can see the argument that he should have stayed black listed, but it's tough to argue there are 5 to 10 managers clearly better than him.
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View: https://youtu.be/c1GV5o5xNqU
A babbitt met a bromide on the avenue one day,
And held a conversation in their own peculiar way;
They both were solid citizens, they both had been around,
And as they spoke you clearly saw their feet were on the ground!
Hello!
How are you?
How's the folks?
What's new?
I'm great!
That's good!
Huh-huh!
Touch wood!
Well well!
What say?
How've you been?
Nice day!
How's things?
What's new?
That's fine!
How are you?
Nice weather we are having, but it gives me such a pain,
I've brought my umbrella so of course it doesn't rain!
Well, hey'ho!
That's life!
What's new?
How's the wife?
Got to run!
Oh my!
Ta-ta!
Olive oil!
Goodbye!
ETC.
Songwriters: Ira Gershwin, George Gershwin
I'd imagine anyone the front office vets would be fine. Jettisoning a manager isn't some exotic thing. Sometimes the fit just does not work, or grows bad.
Meanwhile, on Sons of Bob Smith, they still hang Cash in effigy for pulling Snell in the WS.
Not sure how I can better word my question, but I am looking for a specific name. There must be someone you think is better. The FO vetted Cora, and so far he is 1 for 2 Championships, with 1 incomplete in progress. Which isn't too bad.
As a reminder, this FO (i use ownership as FO) picked Grady Little, Terry Francona, Bobby Valentine, John Farrell, Alex Cora, and Ron Roenicke so far. I give them a 33% hit rate.
Nor sure if serious but he isn't available.
Very easy to say I Want Someone Better
Very hard to identify that guy, especially in baseball where there aren't well known college or international options
So, if I can't do the job of a multi-billion dollar franchise (who may at this time not have a candidate of their own), it magically precludes Cora from sucking?
If you want to argue for Cora's retention, that's fine. But you'll need a better argument than that.
No, but you can’t just say “Replace Him” and say “he sucks” without having a suggestion as to someone better. Because the multi billion dollar franchise doesn’t seem to think there is someone better out there. So maybe there isn’t someone better?
that’s my argument for keeping him. I don’t think there is anyone better out there.
Clearly, ownership doesn't know as much about running a baseball team as sports board posters do
The Cora Doctrine: 1 preferably 2 hitters batting under .200 in your line up at all times. To facilitate this, consider pinch hitting in the 9th for one of your best hitters.
VS RHP:
Hernandez .243 BA 321 OBP, 422 SLG (OPS over 900 for both July and August) OR ... Travis Shaw .209, 286, 393
And for that that matter: Santana .174, 237, 349 ... OR Plawecki .291, 349, 392
But you know - left vs. right trumps actual results.
VS RHP:
Hernandez .243 BA 321 OBP, 422 SLG (OPS over 900 for both July and August) OR ... Travis Shaw .209, 286, 393
And for that that matter: Santana .174, 237, 349 ... OR Plawecki .291, 349, 392
But you know - left vs. right trumps actual results.
July and August stats for Kike are interesting, did you look at what has he done since he returned from Covid? What has Shaw done during that time? What are Shaw’s numbers vs. the pitcher he came in against? Do we know what the left v right stats for these players show?
it is easy to be critical of this team and of the manager for the choices he makes in a vacuum, but are we looking at the same info he is looking at? Does he maybe have info that we don’t have?
what were you saying about him running Dalbec out there every day in May and June when he was hitting under .200?
it is easy to be critical of this team and of the manager for the choices he makes in a vacuum, but are we looking at the same info he is looking at? Does he maybe have info that we don’t have?
what were you saying about him running Dalbec out there every day in May and June when he was hitting under .200?
Since Kike just came back no September stats really - sample size just too small to make a decision - for either player. Hernandez has been an incredibly productive hitter for a few months. Shaw has had a couple of pinch hits, but is largely a washed up player.
If Kike needs to be pulled at the end of games against RHP, then he should not be leading off.
Of course early in the season some guys will be in there with bad BA, though, yes, I will admit to getting frustrated with Dalbec being trotted out there everyday, and he seems to be coming around! ...
Maybe Cora has info we don't, I mean he does. And maybe he's over managing.
Dalbec was miserable for half the year. Cora stuck with him. Was that over managing? Was that not being creative or using critical thinking?
Kike is back two days. Do we know if he is 100%? I asked above, do we know the matchups between Kike and the pitcher and Shaw?
it is easy to criticize the manager. That’s the full time job of some sportswriters it seems. Who would you rather be the manager?
edit: per the game thread that you posted in before you posted here, Kike was 1-13 going into that at bat. I think pinch hitting for him made sense. And maybe yeah, he shouldn’t still be leading off, but Cora was still gathering info last night
Kike is back two days. Do we know if he is 100%? I asked above, do we know the matchups between Kike and the pitcher and Shaw?
it is easy to criticize the manager. That’s the full time job of some sportswriters it seems. Who would you rather be the manager?
edit: per the game thread that you posted in before you posted here, Kike was 1-13 going into that at bat. I think pinch hitting for him made sense. And maybe yeah, he shouldn’t still be leading off, but Cora was still gathering info last night
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Wait so playing Dalbec all year even though he sucked is a sign of Cora’s smarts but not trusting Hernandez after 13 ABs also is?
Also asking someone to name an available replacement is silly. Many of the guys doing it well right now weren’t managers before and were found, vetted, and given a first chance by their teams.
Also asking someone to name an available replacement is silly. Many of the guys doing it well right now weren’t managers before and were found, vetted, and given a first chance by their teams.
Perhaps Cora knew Hernandez wasn't feeling well?
I am sure the modern day Butch Hobson is out there.
I am sure the modern day Butch Hobson is out there.
I'd say this one was luck based more than Cora maintaining faith. Dalbec had been on the verge of losing his job several times but his replacements (Arroyo & Schwarber) bought him some time by being injured. And they added Shaw. They really had no one else.
Somehow he's still bungled his way to a 272 and 195 record despite the enormous pressure that some unidentified wunderkind minor league bench coach is lurking out there.
There are a lot of reasons the Sox have struggled this year, most well-publicized. I was not in favor of re-hiring Cora( even though he was one of my wife's favorite players). I just felt it wasn't going to be 2018 again which is what most were fantasizing about. Too much water under the bridge so to speak.
There is plenty of blame to go around; mostly from the selfishness and ignorance of some players. I don't believe that Cora should shoulder that.
There is plenty of blame to go around; mostly from the selfishness and ignorance of some players. I don't believe that Cora should shoulder that.
The other options (pre-Schwarber, who's got little experience there) were Marwin Gonzalez, Michael Chavis and Franchy Cordero. Given those choices, you stick with Dalbec and hope he runs into one here and there.
As a 1B, yes. Because he had a pretty long leash in April and May as a LF and couldn't hit well enough to stick then. His relatively brief stint at a 1B did coincide with Dalbec starting to hit. Between 7/22 and 8/16 (when Franchy was called up and when he was sent back down), Dalbec hit .297/.371/.600/.971 in 20 games. Cordero got eight starts in that span, hitting .219/.265/.219/.483.
Danny Santana's feeling slighted here. It's truly amazing that the Sox tried five other options at 1b (not including Schwarber) and no one could supplant Dalbec when he was at his worst. I feel Arroyo may have had a shot to take away some of Dalbec's playing time were it not for the injury, but the fact is that Boston had no choice but to stick with Bobby D. and have benefited from a better late than never type scenario.
I think it was just a very short leash. When Cordero was sent down on May 24, he had had all of 102 PA over the team’s first 50 games. Granted he was hitting poorly (though improved in May), but Cora gave other struggling players a lot more time to figure it out. By the time they had 102 PAs, Renfroe was hitting .221/.262/.379; Marwin was hitting .207/.320/.299; and Dalbec was hitting .191/.248/.319. (Dalbec got another 183 PA of bad offense and worst-in-the-league defense, striking out 40.3% of the time, before his bat started to pick up on 8/29).
Obviously, their defensive abilities played a role. You can’t exactly plug Franchy in for Marwin’s at-bats, and somebody had to get squeezed out of an outfield that already included Kiké and Verdugo. I’m not even saying it was the wrong move—Renfroe’s breakout is extremely fortuitous for the organization, and if Dalbec has truly arrived, doubly so. But I don’t think it’s accurate to say Cordero was given ample time to figure it out, especially after he missed most of spring training with injury/Covid.
It’ll be interesting to see what happens with Cordero this winter. He’s back to mashing again in Worcester (a 1.564 OPS in his last 9 games), and riding the shuttle this year means the Sox gained another year of control before he hits FA (in ‘25). I’m still excited by his upside, but I can’t immediately see how he fits in next year’s plans, and I don’t get the impression Cora’s a big fan.
Franchy is arb eligible, he looks like a non tender to me. Career .380 slugging in 450 big league appearances isn’t impressive, and he’s 27. He’s shown that he can hit in AAA, but lots of guys couldn’t transfer that over to the bigs.
His arb award will be what, $1m? I think he's still worth a flier at that price.
Believe it or not, he still has two options remaining (per roster resource).
And he's used one this year. He'll have one option remaining moving forward.
Which means the question is whether Bloom and company are comfortable paying ~$1M to a guy who may well spend most of his time in AAA. Guess you could say they paid $800K for that this year, but the expectation then was he'd be a cheap big leaguer, not an expensive minor leaguer.
Thanks for the correction.
Still, I think he has enough upside that he has real value, just on the basis of the tools and the AAA performance — so long as he has options. It's not like we're dripping with minor league outfield depth.
Not a data point. Just an observation.
I am in NC with several baseball fans who don't live in or near Boston. A couple of Sox, and a few others.
Every one of them has said some variety of, "team gets wiped out with Covid and is still hanging on. Pretty amazing job by Cora keeping that shit together."
I am in NC with several baseball fans who don't live in or near Boston. A couple of Sox, and a few others.
Every one of them has said some variety of, "team gets wiped out with Covid and is still hanging on. Pretty amazing job by Cora keeping that shit together."
Clearly the opinions of people who see the box scores and don't see the defensive misplays.
Just kidding. Kind of.
The difference is that Dalbec was a more highly touted prospect that Cordero, had better career MiLB numbers coming into 2021, and had put up excellent numbers in @ 100 plate appearances in the MLB in 2020 (something Cordero has never done in the majors even in a sample of that size). So, it makes sense that they might give Dalbec a longer leash. He had shown more promise with better results ....
You could be right because of the name, but the majority of publications had the White Sox doing exactly what they are doing with some Twins picks sprinkled in
I think Dalbec's leash had everything to do with the position he was playing. Sending Cordero down when they did freed up more consistent playing time for Renfroe and Arroyo (by making Kike more or less the full time CF). Sending Dalbec down would have freed up more playing time for Marwin Gonzalez and Danny Santana. Not exactly an improvement. I think if either of those guys were swinging an even moderately better bat in May or June, Dalbec likely would have been Worcester bound. Instead, they took the lumps as Dalbec made his adjustments and eventually figured things out in the big league lineup.
Yes, I agree with this, too. Dalbec in part had a longer leash with a more established track record, and in part benefited from circumstances beyond his control.
Funny how this all works ... how many players have missed their window, or had their trajectory altered for better or for worse because they found themselves with an opportunity to play, or didn't, by virtue of circumstance? Obviously the great players force their way in ... but there sure as shit must be a gray area of ability, in which your career relies on some luck.
Mechanically speaking, what did the guy (Dalbec) figure out? What did he change? He is the same guy going up to the plate with a bat. Same hands, wrists, forearms, eyesight... Stance? Swinging inside out more? I haven't personally seen enough of the before and after (used to be a bit of a coach up to HS level). Has Cora or anybody else said what he might've changed? Whatever, I'm happy for him.
Probably should have put this in the Dalbec thread.
Probably should have put this in the Dalbec thread.
From having watched many of his at bats through the season, and having coaching experience at a semipro level for over twenty years, I reach the (educated?) guess that his mindset has changed.
Until the all-star break he was constantly swinging at pitches outside the strike zone, and not swinging at 1st pitch strikes in the middle of the strike zone.
He continues to rarely swing at 1st pitches, even those in the middle of the zone, but he has learned to restrain himself from swinging at sliders low and outside with two strikes, which was his Achilles´ heel. Now pitchers have to throw strikes to make him swing. That has made him a completely different hitter. At least now, when he swings at a pitch it is in the zone and therefore it is hittable.
This makes a world of a difference: both in results and in gained confidence.
This sounds like a hitter who has figured out "how to adjust" to pitchers. But I also read here that it's basically reading pitcher's sequencing. If pitchers had figured out that with two strikes they could throw him a slider outside and he would bite... and then Dalbec finally realized that basically ALL pitchers were doing that so he adjusted... I can see pitchers starting to change that sequence and I can assume that he could be susceptible to another horrible slump.
If it's actually just his pitch recognition that has improved- which I think IS something that more experience facing good ML quality pitching will improve, then I can assume that this last stretch is actually very real and not just an overheated hot streak.
This is a constant battle for all hitters, though. Most hitters experience the early success followed by struggles because the pitchers got the book on him followed by adjustments leading to renewed success cycle. I think the key thing is that once a hitter solves it once, it makes him more likely to solve it again. Doing it the first time gives him the recognition that it is necessary and should make him quicker to work out new adjustments as necessary. Which sets him apart from guys like Will Middlebrooks and Michael Chavis who had early success then couldn't adjust back once pitchers got the book on them (though the jury's still out on Chavis).
That's not to say that Dalbec's current hot streak (which is definitely overheated) is the new norm. It isn't. He will slump again, though probably (hopefully?) not as bad or as sustained as the first four months of this season.
Johnny, thanks for that analysis of Dalbec's turnaround. Sounds something like the problems Bogaerts went through when he couldn't lay off of the outside slider which was breaking way off the plate.
Pardon the bump…. I couldn’t watch or follow the game today (9/25). I just read the last page in the game thread and saw lots of anger directed at Cora.
Asking what he did that cost them today?
Asking what he did that cost them today?