Alex Cora-- what do we have here? Perhaps the best manager in baseball.

Al Zarilla

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 8, 2005
58,867
San Andreas Fault
Gil hasn’t given up an ER in 3 starts and was pulled after 21 batters with a very thin pen behind him, it’s not copying Tampa, it’s just the way the game is now.
I haven't been over to the Yankee threads lately, but how is the fire Boone talk going? I'd bet it has dissipated. Now there is a bit of fire the manager talk over on this side. Conservation of fire the manager talk in the universe, or at least between these two teams.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
20,676
Maine
Here's another thing about the Houk usage that's frustrating to me. At this point of the season the kid has a fresh arm. He's pitched fewer innings (just 34.2) than many of the guys in the pen. This may be a slight case of apples to oranges given their positions, but when Duran starts he's mostly going out there and getting his 3-4 AB's without getting pulled and he's been less than stellar at the plate. He's allowed (for lack of a better word) to fail while Houck has pitched better than most of the guys the Sox have used in the rotation and routinely gets "pinch hit" for.
FWIW, Duran was pinch hit for last night. And it worked out. Renfroe singled...and then was stranded.

I posted this in the game thread, but it seems like Cora was apt to get roasted no matter what he did with Houck yesterday. In Houck's last start, he was pitching much better than he was yesterday, was left in to face the top of the order for the third time, and gave up three straight hits and left the game behind instead of tied. That was Cora trying to steal outs with his starter because his pen was absolutely fried, and it burned him. If he does that again yesterday, and something similar happens, I bet we'd be talking in this thread about how he should have been trusting the stats that say Houck shouldn't face batters a third time. So instead, he gave Houck the early hook in a shortened game (the 7 inning thing was ABSOLUTELY a factor that no one is mentioning) and, coming off an off-day as well as a relatively light weekend of work (thanks Orioles), turned to a guy who's been Mr. Reliable all year and the furthest thing from over-used. That guy failed. Then he brought in another guy who's been rock solid all year who was coming off four days off, and he failed (might blame rust more than over-work there).

I'm not here to lionize Cora so much as to suggest that few if any managers were likely to do it any different. They don't win because of his managing and they don't lose because of it. Players play the game, and right now the players aren't playing the game well.
 

NYCSox

chris hansen of goats
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
May 19, 2004
10,446
Some fancy town in CT
Yeah managing has an impact really only on the margins. I mean Aaron Boone is still dumb as a doorknob but it no longer matters.
 

cantor44

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 23, 2020
1,637
Chicago, IL
Gil hasn’t given up an ER in 3 starts and was pulled after 21 batters with a very thin pen behind him, it’s not copying Tampa, it’s just the way the game is now.
Though he was taken out of the game after allowing runners on base in the 5th (and 71 pitches). This is precisely what Cora could have done ... send Houck out for the fifth, and with any sign of trouble, take him out.
 

cantor44

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 23, 2020
1,637
Chicago, IL
I do hope this "3rd time through the lineup" nonsense is a fad that will die, but that seems unlikely. It's not just Cora, and it's not just Houck; recall the fiasco from last year's World Series. I know people here would sometimes criticize Francona for trying to steal outs when the bullpen was taxed. Yesterday's game was a situation where it made perfect sense to try to steal outs.
Exactly. Manage in response to the full context. This is not strat-o-matic.
 

cantor44

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 23, 2020
1,637
Chicago, IL
He's faced 8 total batters a third time this year. It seems like a small sample size from which to draw conclusions about a guy who has pitched really well overall.
Totally agree. I was simply saying, if that's the organization's take on Houck, then, using their own logic, they need to make an adjustment in how they use him.
 

cantor44

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 23, 2020
1,637
Chicago, IL
FWIW, Duran was pinch hit for last night. And it worked out. Renfroe singled...and then was stranded.

I posted this in the game thread, but it seems like Cora was apt to get roasted no matter what he did with Houck yesterday. In Houck's last start, he was pitching much better than he was yesterday, was left in to face the top of the order for the third time, and gave up three straight hits and left the game behind instead of tied. That was Cora trying to steal outs with his starter because his pen was absolutely fried, and it burned him. If he does that again yesterday, and something similar happens, I bet we'd be talking in this thread about how he should have been trusting the stats that say Houck shouldn't face batters a third time. So instead, he gave Houck the early hook in a shortened game (the 7 inning thing was ABSOLUTELY a factor that no one is mentioning) and, coming off an off-day as well as a relatively light weekend of work (thanks Orioles), turned to a guy who's been Mr. Reliable all year and the furthest thing from over-used. That guy failed. Then he brought in another guy who's been rock solid all year who was coming off four days off, and he failed (might blame rust more than over-work there).

I'm not here to lionize Cora so much as to suggest that few if any managers were likely to do it any different. They don't win because of his managing and they don't lose because of it. Players play the game, and right now the players aren't playing the game well.
I'm sorry, but I don't see how many folks were expecting Houck to only pitch 4 innings and less than 60 pitches, and if he went over those thresholds - even if pitching very well - would have been upset with Cora for keeping him in. There is a very obvious middle position Cora could have taken already mentioned: send Houck out for the fifth and if gets into trouble bring in Whitlock.

Here's another bit of SSS stats Cora could have based his decision on: DJ LeMahieu, Brett Gardner, and Aaron Judge were 0 for 6 against Houck in the game and 0 for 16 in their careers.

So - what's more relevant, the 8 - yes 8 - batters Houck has faced third time through in the bigs? Or the 16 times he faced the three hitters he was about to face?

This is all patently ABSURD. Any of this data is far far far too much of a SSS to base a decision on. Cora needed to steal some innings from his starters with a faltering bullpen and 3 games in two days. The chance to do that is when a starter seems to be in the groove with a decent pitch count. That's the situation. The full context and situation needed to be regarded.
 

BroodsSexton

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 4, 2006
12,630
guam
The “third time through the lineup” phenomenon is worth its own thread. I wonder if the stats need to be unpacked a bit based on how well the pitcher does the first two times through? If a guy is cruising, is it more likely he’s going to lose it completely the third time through? Or is it more that a guy who has an average start is then really likely to fall off a cliff, biasing the numbers?
 

cantor44

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 23, 2020
1,637
Chicago, IL
The “third time through the lineup” phenomenon is worth its own thread. I wonder if the stats need to be unpacked a bit based on how well the pitcher does the first two times through? If a guy is cruising, is it more likely he’s going to lose it completely the third time through? Or is it more that a guy who has an average start is then really likely to fall off a cliff, biasing the numbers?
Great question and potential distinction ... worth the thread!!
 

Murderer's Crow

Dragon Wangler 216
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
23,473
Garden City
I haven't been over to the Yankee threads lately, but how is the fire Boone talk going? I'd bet it has dissipated. Now there is a bit of fire the manager talk over on this side. Conservation of fire the manager talk in the universe, or at least between these two teams.
I'd fire him in-between the double-header yesterday and let the old lady ball girl manage.
 

YTF

Member
SoSH Member
Though he was taken out of the game after allowing runners on base in the 5th (and 71 pitches). This is precisely what Cora could have done ... send Houck out for the fifth, and with any sign of trouble, take him out.
Agreed, in many respects the fifth inning in yesterday's start is basically the 7th inning of any other game except your pitcher has only thrown 58 pitches. If you want to manage the pen as if it's the 7th inning great. Have a guy warmed up and ready to go, but how many opportunities do you have to get your starter into "the 7th inning" with just 58 pitches thrown? I'd have liked to see Houck given the chance to start the 5th. .
 

Murderer's Crow

Dragon Wangler 216
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
23,473
Garden City
The “third time through the lineup” phenomenon is worth its own thread. I wonder if the stats need to be unpacked a bit based on how well the pitcher does the first two times through? If a guy is cruising, is it more likely he’s going to lose it completely the third time through? Or is it more that a guy who has an average start is then really likely to fall off a cliff, biasing the numbers?
It probably does deserve its own thread. Something that stands out to me is that fans always make it about the individual player stats when a manager pulls the pitcher before the 3rd rotation but I'm not sure analysts and managers are viewing it that way.

Instead, I think the calculus basically is comparing the matchup of the bullpen arm vs the average depreciation of any pitchers effectiveness through the third time of the order. Some pitchers are better than others and some are not but overall, no pitcher should routinely perform better after hitters see them three times. At least, they shouldn't perform better than a fresh bullpen arm if the matchups are selected properly.

It's not crazy to me but it is the epitome of old school vs new school or eye ball assessment vs nerds with calculators. Anyone who watches these games at homes and sees a pitcher dominating at only 70-80 pitches is dumbstruck when they get pulled only to see a 3era reliever come in. I genuinely think managers have to really have a good feel for the pitcher in-game and not make a judgment before the game starts.

For example, I criticized pulling Montgomery but in the postgame he told the media that he was starting to feel pretty tired. At home, we just see 75 or 80 pitches and think it automatically means they can go 100-120 because they're stretched out. The other night, Cole said the same exact thing that he started to get tired.

Tertiary point, fewer pitches = fewer injuries to the starters.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,375
Though he was taken out of the game after allowing runners on base in the 5th (and 71 pitches). This is precisely what Cora could have done ... send Houck out for the fifth, and with any sign of trouble, take him out.
I favor letting the starter go longer. That is my caveat. That said, Houck failed the last time out when he faced the lineup for the third time. If Cora let him pitch in the 5th and he gave up a couple of hits that, even when a reliever was brought in, led to runs, almost everyone here would have criticized Cora for making the same mistake he made *the very last time Houck pitched*. And it would have been argued that Eovaldi was going in the nightcap and, being a 7-inning game, was a good bet to need only Eovaldi and Barnes, so using Whitlock, Taylor, and Ottavino was a perfectly legit strategy in game 1.
 

The Gray Eagle

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2001
16,721
FWIW, Duran was pinch hit for last night. And it worked out. Renfroe singled...and then was stranded.

I posted this in the game thread, but it seems like Cora was apt to get roasted no matter what he did with Houck yesterday. In Houck's last start, he was pitching much better than he was yesterday, was left in to face the top of the order for the third time, and gave up three straight hits and left the game behind instead of tied. That was Cora trying to steal outs with his starter because his pen was absolutely fried, and it burned him. If he does that again yesterday, and something similar happens, I bet we'd be talking in this thread about how he should have been trusting the stats that say Houck shouldn't face batters a third time. So instead, he gave Houck the early hook in a shortened game (the 7 inning thing was ABSOLUTELY a factor that no one is mentioning) and, coming off an off-day as well as a relatively light weekend of work (thanks Orioles), turned to a guy who's been Mr. Reliable all year and the furthest thing from over-used. That guy failed. Then he brought in another guy who's been rock solid all year who was coming off four days off, and he failed (might blame rust more than over-work there).

I'm not here to lionize Cora so much as to suggest that few if any managers were likely to do it any different. They don't win because of his managing and they don't lose because of it. Players play the game, and right now the players aren't playing the game well.
This right here. Where were all the compliments for Cora leaving Houck out there in his last start, where he did exactly what people here are demanding? Oh right, there weren't any, because it didn't work and we blew the game.

Man, Smiling Joe Hesketh has a LOT of STRONG opinions on the Red Sox for a guy who stopped watching them after they traded Mookie. :)
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,375
I'm sorry, but I don't see how many folks were expecting Houck to only pitch 4 innings and less than 60 pitches, and if he went over those thresholds - even if pitching very well - would have been upset with Cora for keeping him in. There is a very obvious middle position Cora could have taken already mentioned: send Houck out for the fifth and if gets into trouble bring in Whitlock.

Here's another bit of SSS stats Cora could have based his decision on: DJ LeMahieu, Brett Gardner, and Aaron Judge were 0 for 6 against Houck in the game and 0 for 16 in their careers.

So - what's more relevant, the 8 - yes 8 - batters Houck has faced third time through in the bigs? Or the 16 times he faced the three hitters he was about to face?

This is all patently ABSURD. Any of this data is far far far too much of a SSS to base a decision on. Cora needed to steal some innings from his starters with a faltering bullpen and 3 games in two days. The chance to do that is when a starter seems to be in the groove with a decent pitch count. That's the situation. The full context and situation needed to be regarded.
I'm positive Cora's calculus wasn't just *Houck's* SSS the third time through the lineup. I'm pretty sure he knows the massive sample across all of MLB that shows that hitters improve dramatically when they face a pitcher for the third time. He had no reason to suspect that Houck was immune to that overwhelming trend.
 

YTF

Member
SoSH Member
This right here. Where were all the compliments for Cora leaving Houck out there in his last start, where he did exactly what people here are demanding? Oh right, there weren't any, because it didn't work and we blew the game.

Man, Smiling Joe Hesketh has a LOT of STRONG opinions on the Red Sox for a guy who stopped watching them after they traded Mookie. :)
Legit question because I don't know the answer. Did Cora get roasted after that particular game? And by roasted I mean more than knee jerk game thread reactions.
 

cantor44

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 23, 2020
1,637
Chicago, IL
I'm positive Cora's calculus wasn't just *Houck's* SSS the third time through the lineup. I'm pretty sure he knows the massive sample across all of MLB that shows that hitters improve dramatically when they face a pitcher for the third time. He had no reason to suspect that Houck was immune to that overwhelming trend.
Given that the massive sample across all of MLB showing hitter improvement the third time through (which I know is a real thing), why allow ANY pitcher to pitch a third time through? Houck on a much shorter leash ... or ... other pitchers given a chance to walk the third time through gauntlet and Houck not ...If the aggregate numbers show hitters at an advantage at that point, you think it'd be a blanket move by Cora, regardless of the pitcher. He had made a decision about Houck based on his specific SSS third time through it seems ... though wonder what his MiLB numbers look like in this regard ... is he worse than most?
 

mfried

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 23, 2005
1,680
Given that the massive sample across all of MLB showing hitter improvement the third time through (which I know is a real thing), why allow ANY pitcher to pitch a third time through? Houck on a much shorter leash ... or ... other pitchers given a chance to walk the third time through gauntlet and Houck not ...If the aggregate numbers show hitters at an advantage at that point, you think it'd be a blanket move by Cora, regardless of the pitcher. He had made a decision about Houck based on his specific SSS third time through it seems ... though wonder what his MiLB numbers look like in this regard ... is he worse than most?
Houck should have started the 6th on the shortest of leashes, but not pulled before the inning started.
 

BroodsSexton

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 4, 2006
12,630
guam
Given that the massive sample across all of MLB showing hitter improvement the third time through (which I know is a real thing), why allow ANY pitcher to pitch a third time through? Houck on a much shorter leash ... or ... other pitchers given a chance to walk the third time through gauntlet and Houck not ...If the aggregate numbers show hitters at an advantage at that point, you think it'd be a blanket move by Cora, regardless of the pitcher. He had made a decision about Houck based on his specific SSS third time through it seems ... though wonder what his MiLB numbers look like in this regard ... is he worse than most?
But "massive sample" doesn't answer the question, which is whether there is individual variability given a pitcher's performance on a given day. On days where a pitcher is pitching really well, one might reasonably expect to find that the pitcher does better the third time through the line up, as compared to a pitcher who is providing replacement level innings, for example.

Yes, you might have a team policy that "pitchers don't go through the third time," but just like a pitcher gets an early hook when that pitcher can't make it through the second time, one might also expect that if the pitcher gets through the lineup easily for the second time on a given day, then it's a good time for there to be an exception to the rule. Again--I don't know if this is the case. But it certainly isn't obvious to me that the massive sample size dictates a particular result for a particular pitcher on a given day. There are all kinds of "massive sample size" statistics for baseball. But we don't assume that every standardized statistic applies with equal force to every player in every situation.
 

YTF

Member
SoSH Member
But "massive sample" doesn't answer the question, which is whether there is individual variability given a pitcher's performance on a given day. On days where a pitcher is pitching really well, one might reasonably expect to find that the pitcher does better the third time through the line up, as compared to a pitcher who is providing replacement level innings, for example.

Yes, you might have a team policy that "pitchers don't go through the third time," but just like a pitcher gets an early hook when that pitcher can't make it through the second time, one might also expect that if the pitcher gets through the lineup easily for the second time on a given day, then it's a good time for there to be an exception to the rule. Again--I don't know if this is the case. But it certainly isn't obvious to me that the massive sample size dictates a particular result for a particular pitcher on a given day. There are all kinds of "massive sample size" statistics for baseball. But we don't assume that every standardized statistic applies with equal force to every player in every situation.
Yep at some point you need to let the player determine if that data applies to him or not.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

Throw Momma From the Train
Moderator
SoSH Member
May 20, 2003
35,719
Deep inside Muppet Labs
So tonight he wants to get Plawecki’s bat in the lineup. Reasonable. But instead of having him catch or play 1B, he has him at DH, which moves JD to the outfield and Dalbec to 1B. And JD promptly misplays a fly ball which costs the Sox a run and Dalbec misplays a ground ball which costs the Sox two runs.

Some of it’s bad luck but like a slumping hitter nothing Cora is doing is working out.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

Throw Momma From the Train
Moderator
SoSH Member
May 20, 2003
35,719
Deep inside Muppet Labs
Also it bears noting that Andrew Heaney, who objectively stinks, was allowed to go through the Sox order for the 3rd time tonight. That says something about the Sox hitters of course but it also points out that rigid adherence to a philosophy that doesn’t reflect reality helps no one. Makes the Houck pull yesterday look even more foolish.
 

absintheofmalaise

too many flowers
Dope
SoSH Member
Mar 16, 2005
23,328
The gran facenda
Also it bears noting that Andrew Heaney, who objectively stinks, was allowed to go through the Sox order for the 3rd time tonight. That says something about the Sox hitters of course but it also points out that rigid adherence to a philosophy that doesn’t reflect reality helps no one. Makes the Houck pull yesterday look even more foolish.
Small sample size.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 13, 2021
11,921
So tonight he wants to get Plawecki’s bat in the lineup. Reasonable. But instead of having him catch or play 1B, he has him at DH, which moves JD to the outfield and Dalbec to 1B. And JD promptly misplays a fly ball which costs the Sox a run and Dalbec misplays a ground ball which costs the Sox two runs.

Some of it’s bad luck but like a slumping hitter nothing Cora is doing is working out.
It’s a really poorly constructed roster and has been for a while. Tonight’s bench is Arauz, Duran, Shaw, and Schwarber. Assuming Schwarber is out, that’s not really a bench that offers much of anything.

That the best lineup includes both catchers (neither of whom is exactly Buster Posey) is kind of hard to believe.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

Throw Momma From the Train
Moderator
SoSH Member
May 20, 2003
35,719
Deep inside Muppet Labs
It’s a really poorly constructed roster and has been for a while. Tonight’s bench is Arauz, Duran, Shaw, and Schwarber. Assuming Schwarber is out, that’s not really a bench that offers much of anything.

That the best lineup includes both catchers (neither of whom is exactly Buster Posey) is kind of hard to believe.
It’s because JD has no position and really should never play the field. But Schwarber has no position either. So when both play one of them will hurt them in the field.
 

E5 Yaz

Transcends message boarding
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 25, 2002
90,014
Oregon
Personally, I wish Cora had kept Houck in on a short leash. I understand the third time through the order stats for Houck, and a lot of other pitchers, but you can't be so rigid that you never stretch the rule if a guy is throwing well.
What'd love to know is whether that was Cora's decision, or an organizational opinion on Houck that Cora was following ... whether he has full belief in it or not.

The 8 batters thing is disingenuous because they clearly had to have built this opinion on Houck through his progression through the system.
 

absintheofmalaise

too many flowers
Dope
SoSH Member
Mar 16, 2005
23,328
The gran facenda
What'd love to know is whether that was Cora's decision, or an organizational opinion on Houck that Cora was following ... whether he has full belief in it or not.

The 8 batters thing is disingenuous because they clearly had to have built this opinion on Houck through his progression through the system.
It has to be organizational. And not just with the Sox. Other teams follow the same rigid rule. The Braves are one example. Everyone down here wanted Snitker fired because he always pulled pitchers early in games they were winning no matter how well they were pitching.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
20,676
Maine
Personally, I wish Cora had kept Houck in on a short leash. I understand the third time through the order stats for Houck, and a lot of other pitchers, but you can't be so rigid that you never stretch the rule if a guy is throwing well.
They're not so rigid. As has been pointed out, Houck was throwing well in his previous start against the Rays, was left in for the third time through the order, and gave up a single, HR, and double before being pulled. That incident isn't necessarily instructive for Tuesday's decision, but it shows they're not totally rigid. I think in a nine inning game, the calculus on the fifth inning probably changes and Houck stays in. But in a seven inning game, Cora erred on the side of asking his pen to get the final 9 outs of the game (a pretty standard ask in today's game). The bullpen failed.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 11, 2007
6,346
They're not so rigid. As has been pointed out, Houck was throwing well in his previous start against the Rays, was left in for the third time through the order, and gave up a single, HR, and double before being pulled. That incident isn't necessarily instructive for Tuesday's decision, but it shows they're not totally rigid. I think in a nine inning game, the calculus on the fifth inning probably changes and Houck stays in. But in a seven inning game, Cora erred on the side of asking his pen to get the final 9 outs of the game (a pretty standard ask in today's game). The bullpen failed.
But in this situation why was he left in after allowing the single? That was the obvious point there to pull him.... the reasonable posters on this board have been saying Cora should have started the inning with him and pulled him at the first sign of trouble. Not just bring him in to start the inning and then sit on your hands while he gets clobbered. This isn't just a true or false option but that seems to be Cora's decision making over the past month about almost everything. Inflexibility to a philosophy and unresponsive to game situations. It's been maddening. Good god... I run a small construction business that does work on big commercial projects and I have a game plan going in but it always gets derailed by a multitude of events outside my control. It's still good to have a philosophy and plan but be f'in flexible or you're going to get torn apart!
 

Rovin Romine

Johnny Rico
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
23,675
Miami (oh, Miami!)
But in this situation why was he left in after allowing the single? That was the obvious point there to pull him.... the reasonable posters on this board have been saying Cora should have started the inning with him and pulled him at the first sign of trouble. Not just bring him in to start the inning and then sit on your hands while he gets clobbered. This isn't just a true or false option but that seems to be Cora's decision making over the past month about almost everything. Inflexibility to a philosophy and unresponsive to game situations. It's been maddening. Good god... I run a small construction business that does work on big commercial projects and I have a game plan going in but it always gets derailed by a multitude of events outside my control. It's still good to have a philosophy and plan but be f'in flexible or you're going to get torn apart!
I'd echo this.

I'd also add that sometimes it seems like Cora is inflexible in terms of when he's willing to make changes. I'd have to look at the numbers, but my impression is that he won't PH/PR early (or mid-game) despite a theoretically flexible bench.
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
18,096
I'd echo this.

I'd also add that sometimes it seems like Cora is inflexible in terms of when he's willing to make changes. I'd have to look at the numbers, but my impression is that he won't PH/PR early (or mid-game) despite a theoretically flexible bench.
The criticism of how Cora handled Houck is on point, IMO. Cora missed some key context (only 58 pitches thrown, chance to get more outs from the starter while the pen was taxed, etc.). But I do not agree with the above as being a valid criticism. No manager pinch hits in the early innings of the endless regular season.
 

Harry Hooper

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 4, 2002
34,367
I think all of this musing about 3rd time through does not apply to Houck's last start. Cora sought to lock down the Game 1 win with his best bullpen guys, and his goal of making sure of collecting at least 1 win on the day totally blew up.
 

Rovin Romine

Johnny Rico
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
23,675
Miami (oh, Miami!)
The criticism of how Cora handled Houck is on point, IMO. Cora missed some key context (only 58 pitches thrown, chance to get more outs from the starter while the pen was taxed, etc.). But I do not agree with the above as being a valid criticism. No manager pinch hits in the early innings of the endless regular season.
And Mid-game?
 

cournoyer

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 11, 2012
515
Enfield, Connecticut
Legit question because I don't know the answer. Did Cora get roasted after that particular game? And by roasted I mean more than knee jerk game thread reactions.
Not sure exactly what you mean but watching on NESN in the moment they sort of mentioned it but Eck kind of didn't go all in. He started to question it but then started talking about how great Whitlock was and left it at that. On my way home from work I was listening to the radio postgame and both Fleming and Castig were not fans of the decision to pull Houck. Obviously the game thread here there were a lot of knee jerk reactions but it was a questionable move to begin with on its face value (IMO), and I think a lot of people felt that way before the meltdown happened. A lot of articles afterwards were split in defending Cora and debating if it was the right move, so it was probably closer to a coin flip in all honesty.
 

Max Power

thai good. you like shirt?
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
7,877
Boston, MA
The criticism of how Cora handled Houck is on point, IMO. Cora missed some key context (only 58 pitches thrown, chance to get more outs from the starter while the pen was taxed, etc.). But I do not agree with the above as being a valid criticism. No manager pinch hits in the early innings of the endless regular season.
The bullpen wasn't taxed. There was a day off Monday preceeded by an easy Orioles series. Everyone had between 2 and 5 days rest. They just stunk.
 

Rovin Romine

Johnny Rico
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
23,675
Miami (oh, Miami!)
I couldn't easily find a breakdown by inning for PH, but the following page is interesting:

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL/2021-situational-batting.shtml

Sox are below league average in % of PAs with platoon advantage.
We are second to last in PH at bats (consequently we are low in aggregate PH/RBI, though our the results might not average out badly - one would have to math it.)
(Also they tend to be in high leverage situations.)

In the situational hitting category, we are dead last for attempting bunts and successful bunts.

Our two saving graces are that we're second in hits, and we tend to avoid the DP - consequently we're good with "productive outs." We're also good at scoring all those baserunners, on the whole. However, situationally, we're not great - in fact we're a touch less than average at scoring men from 3rd with less than 2 out. Though we are quite high at scoring men from second with 0 out (seems odd? a Fenway doubles effect? More chance to get through a dead spot in the lineup?).

***
If you put all that together, it paints a picture of a very hands-off manager, for good or ill. And that matches the eyeball test. Low PH with men on 3rd.

Cora's much lauded "flexible roster" really has been more about blindly starting people, rather than mixing and matching platoon advantage, or PH in key moments. He just does not do that, relative to the other AL teams.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 13, 2021
11,921
Isn’t this just a factor of having a pretty terrible bench for much of the year? Last nights bench was Schwarber, who seemed unavailable, Durran, Arauz, and Shaw. Others have included Marwin, Cordero, and Chavis. They haven’t really had a useful bat off the bench since Arroyo went down.
 

Rovin Romine

Johnny Rico
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
23,675
Miami (oh, Miami!)
Isn’t this just a factor of having a pretty terrible bench for much of the year? Last nights bench was Schwarber, who seemed unavailable, Durran, Arauz, and Shaw. Others have included Marwin, Cordero, and Chavis. They haven’t really had a useful bat off the bench since Arroyo went down.
No. Situational hitting is not limited to your bench, as often one of your better hitters will be on it. (Certainly that's been the case this year with the hundreds of at bats Cora gave marginal players.) He continually pulled the lever on guys, hoping thing come up cherries.

Also, you use what you have. Nothing wrong with putting in Shaw for Dalbec in the 8th to work a walk, then running Durran. Or putting Schwarber on the IL if he can't DH, then calling up a warm body from Worcester who has a batting split.
 

Max Power

thai good. you like shirt?
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
7,877
Boston, MA
No. Situational hitting is not limited to your bench, as often one of your better hitters will be on it. (Certainly that's been the case this year with the hundreds of at bats Cora gave marginal players.) He continually pulled the lever on guys, hoping thing come up cherries.

Also, you use what you have. Nothing wrong with putting in Shaw for Dalbec in the 8th to work a walk, then running Durran. Or putting Schwarber on the IL if he can't DH, then calling up a warm body from Worcester who has a batting split.
You mean other than losing Schwarber for the next 9 days because you wanted him for one?
 

Petagine in a Bottle

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 13, 2021
11,921
No. Situational hitting is not limited to your bench, as often one of your better hitters will be on it. (Certainly that's been the case this year with the hundreds of at bats Cora gave marginal players.) He continually pulled the lever on guys, hoping thing come up cherries.

Also, you use what you have. Nothing wrong with putting in Shaw for Dalbec in the 8th to work a walk, then running Durran. Or putting Schwarber on the IL if he can't DH, then calling up a warm body from Worcester who has a batting split.
Well part of the problem is the only warm body in Worcester on the 40-man is Franchy Cordero. Munoz is a guy who seems like he could help, but he’s not on the 40-man and I guess they can’t risk losing Hudson Potts, Jeisson Rosario, or Danny Santana. That’s been an issue all year and is why they have had to waste so many at bats on lousy players.

PH Shaw for Dalbec against a LHP just doesn’t really make much sense. If you are PH for Dalbec against a lefty, than he has no use being on this team.
 

YTF

Member
SoSH Member
Not sure exactly what you mean but watching on NESN in the moment they sort of mentioned it but Eck kind of didn't go all in. He started to question it but then started talking about how great Whitlock was and left it at that. On my way home from work I was listening to the radio postgame and both Fleming and Castig were not fans of the decision to pull Houck. Obviously the game thread here there were a lot of knee jerk reactions but it was a questionable move to begin with on its face value (IMO), and I think a lot of people felt that way before the meltdown happened. A lot of articles afterwards were split in defending Cora and debating if it was the right move, so it was probably closer to a coin flip in all honesty.
Thanks for the response. I might not have been clear enough, but my question was in response to The Gray Eagle asking this about the previous start where Houck was left in..."Where were all the compliments for Cora leaving Houck out there in his last start, where he did exactly what people here are demanding? Oh right, there weren't any, because it didn't work and we blew the game." Obviously a bit of snark there and that's fine, but I was curious if on the flip side of the lack of "compliments" if there was outrage over it? Personally I think we need to see what this kid is and isn't capable of. It sucks that we have to figure this out when things could not be going worse for The Sox, but like some others here have mentioned that given the recent state of the bullpen why not let Houck go out in the 5th inning of that last game on a very short leash. I get that ideally you don't want to experiment in certain situations, but there's been more than just a little bit of experimenting in the past few weeks. Franchy and Schwarber at 1B, the Duran call up and the two new additions to the pen to name a few. None to these to date has met with any level of success, but they were all deemed worthy of attempting. Yet Houck (with the exception of Eovaldi and the return of Sale) has perhaps been the brightest light in this rotation and IMO isn't being given the consideration that some of these other "experiments" have.
 

mfried

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 23, 2005
1,680
Well part of the problem is the only warm body in Worcester on the 40-man is Franchy Cordero. Munoz is a guy who seems like he could help, but he’s not on the 40-man and I guess they can’t risk losing Hudson Potts, Jeisson Rosario, or Danny Santana. That’s been an issue all year and is why they have had to waste so many at bats on lousy players.

PH Shaw for Dalbec against a LHP just doesn’t really make much sense. If you are PH for Dalbec against a lefty, than he has no use being on this team.
“…no use being on this team.” This is worth considering.
 

Rovin Romine

Johnny Rico
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
23,675
Miami (oh, Miami!)
You mean other than losing Schwarber for the next 9 days because you wanted him for one?
Sorry - genuinely not following that.

PH Shaw for Dalbec against a LHP just doesn’t really make much sense. If you are PH for Dalbec against a lefty, than he has no use being on this team.
But this runs afoul of the CCSBK.

Cora's Conundrum of Superior Baseball Knowledge states that the bench players that the team has carefully selected and developed under the auspices of SBK do, in fact, have some role. Cora just does not use them. And then the results suck. Hence the Conundrum.