ALCS 2021: Red Sox vs. Astros Discussion Thread

azsoxpatsfan

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He is in essence an extra bullpen catcher, but he works closely with the pitchers and helps them look at video. He worked closely with Tanner Houck during the pandemic shutdown as they both lived in Atlanta at the time. He is viewed by the FO as a potential coach.

https://www.masslive.com/redsox/2021/10/charlie-madden-caught-boston-red-soxs-game-2-star-tanner-houck-in-church-lot-has-helped-him-break-down-analytics.html
That’s fascinating. Thanks for the link
 

canyoubelieveit

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People have given some good reasons for the Sale decision in game 1. Let me add this possibility: If Eovaldi starts game 1 and they lose (even if he pitches well), you’re in more dire straits for a game 2 win, and I’m not sure Sale is the guy. If Sale loses game 1, at least you have your best starter going game 2 and it gives you the best chance to go home with a split instead of down two games to none.

So game 2 might be more “important” than game 1, hence Eovaldi there instead of game 1.

I dunno...spitballing here.
I agree with this, especially after all those annoying years watching Andy Pettitte start and win a game 2.
 

Max Power

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Still no start times for Game 4 or 5 listed. I get that Game 5 might not be necessary, so that could change the start time for Game 4 of the NLCS. But we know ALCS Game 4 and NLCS Game 3 are both going to be played on Tuesday in Boston and LA respectively. There should be a start time listed by now.
 

ETB

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Oct 15, 2021
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I agree. I want Sale to pitch like a reliever (max effort for outs) rather than trying to go deep into the game. It has worked for others, and other arms can follow with the same philosophy. Even if it is a 3-2-2-2 split for pitchers (or something similar), there are enough arms to get through it. This is not a lineup to attempt conserve pitches or take batters off. Game by game, and pass the baton. Nobody is going more than 5 innings anyway. If there is a lead in the 8th, use Whitlock for 2, don't try and have someone throw the 8th. You can't win 2 games in a day, so deal with tomorrow at that point


I don't see a downside to starting Sale in Game 1. Best case scenario is he pitches well and they win. Worst-case scenario, you have to use Houck or Pivetta relatively early, but both should be rested enough to go a few innings, and then you have Eovaldi in Game 2, who is the team's best bet at giving them length. If you reverse it, what happens if Eovaldi gets yanked early? Then you're in the position of starting Sale with one of PIvetta/Houck having thrown a bunch of pitches the day before.
 

joe dokes

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He is in essence an extra bullpen catcher, but he works closely with the pitchers and helps them look at video. He worked closely with Tanner Houck during the pandemic shutdown as they both lived in Atlanta at the time. He is viewed by the FO as a potential coach.

https://www.masslive.com/redsox/2021/10/charlie-madden-caught-boston-red-soxs-game-2-star-tanner-houck-in-church-lot-has-helped-him-break-down-analytics.html
I'll echo the others. Thanks for the link. Very cool story. Like he's a management trainee. Too bad the race was so tight and he couldn't get a Moonlight Graham moment.
 

JOBU

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Still no start times for Game 4 or 5 listed. I get that Game 5 might not be necessary, so that could change the start time for Game 4 of the NLCS. But we know ALCS Game 4 and NLCS Game 3 are both going to be played on Tuesday in Boston and LA respectively. There should be a start time listed by now.
I would plan on the 4pm start time on tue and wed since the other game those days are in LA. I can’t possibly imagine how mlb would chose a 1pm local start time for LA
 

RedOctober3829

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Still no start times for Game 4 or 5 listed. I get that Game 5 might not be necessary, so that could change the start time for Game 4 of the NLCS. But we know ALCS Game 4 and NLCS Game 3 are both going to be played on Tuesday in Boston and LA respectively. There should be a start time listed by now.
Of the 3 games in Boston potentially, I would expect that one of them will be an afternoon start. This would be a good bet to be a 4 or 5 pm start and the NLCS game at 9:00.
 

canyoubelieveit

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Darwinzon vs Fudge is pretty much a toss up for me, so I'm fine with the change.
Sawamura vs Barnes gives us a slightly more usable reliever, so I like this move.
I feel like Darwinzon is likely to pitch well in a low to medium leverage situation and to do poorly in a high leverage situation. Davis would probably be mediocre in either situation. So I like the move as long as Darwinzon is used this way (which I'm guessing he will be unless it's an emergency or extra innings situation).

It makes me sad that Sawamura is probably a better option than Barnes. And I like Sawamura. The one game I went to this year (in Atlanta) I was amazed at how hard he seemed to throw...it made a different sound hitting the mitt than any other pitcher. When he can find the strike zone he's a legit weapon.
 

cantor44

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Darwinzon vs Fudge is pretty much a toss up for me, so I'm fine with the change.
Sawamura vs Barnes gives us a slightly more usable reliever, so I like this move.
I think the Sawamura move makes good sense. I don't really get Darwinzon - Davis was much better than him down the stretch. But who knows - maybe Davis is dinged up, etc.

Meanwhile, I'm warming to the idea that Sale pitches in game 1 because .... forgive any retread ideas here ...if he STILL can't pitch effectively, best to know that immediately. That way, ample run-up to any kind of adjustment you might need to make for games 2-7.

EDIT: I assume if Sale shits the bed again, he's out of the rotation for the rest of the post season, and maybe even replaced on the roster.
 

Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat

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This probably isn't the right thread, but the Barnes situation makes me wonder. Totally objectively, should the coaching staff be applauded for making him an all star closer in the first half of the year, or if they should be criticized for not being able to figure out how to at least make him a usable arm for the playoffs. Hell, even 2018 playoff Barnes would be really helpful.
Given the contract the team gave him, it would appear that the team believed at least some of the helium was real.
 

jose melendez

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Seriously. What the hell happened to Barnes? Is there a clear cause? I am happy with Sawamura on the roster, at least. I might have liked Davis under old LOOGY rules, but the risk of him having to face a righty is a hurge downside.
 

nattysez

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This probably isn't the right thread, but the Barnes situation makes me wonder. Totally objectively, should the coaching staff be applauded for making him an all star closer in the first half of the year, or if they should be criticized for not being able to figure out how to at least make him a usable arm for the playoffs. Hell, even 2018 playoff Barnes would be really helpful.
Given the contract the team gave him, it would appear that the team believed at least some of the helium was real.
I wonder if/hope he's dealing with an injury and they're just keeping it quiet for now.
 

Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat

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I think the Sawamura move makes good sense. I don't really get Darwinzon - Davis was much better than him down the stretch. But who knows - maybe Davis is dinged up, etc.

Meanwhile, I'm warming to the idea that Sale pitches in game 1 because .... forgive any retread ideas here ...if he STILL can't pitch effectively, best to know that immediately. That way, ample run-up to any kind of adjustment you might need to make for games 2-7.

EDIT: I assume if Sale shits the bed again, he's out of the rotation for the rest of the post season, and maybe even replaced on the roster.
Davis sucks against righties, so the three batter rule is a huge problem for him. He really is a LOOGY.
No one hit Hernandez particularly well, it's all about walks with him. Lefties hit .204 against him this season and righties hit .202
 

canderson

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Seriously. What the hell happened to Barnes? Is there a clear cause? I am happy with Sawamura on the roster, at least. I might have liked Davis under old LOOGY rules, but the risk of him having to face a righty is a hurge downside.
It seems pretty clear to me the banning of spidertack-like substances hurt him a lot.
 

tims4wins

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Whatever they thought about Sale, they were wrong. DL him now and pray he comes back better next year. God that contract feels like a disaster.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Whatever they thought about Sale, they were wrong. DL him now and pray he comes back better next year. God that contract feels like a disaster.
Isn't there a game thread for this?

If he's not hurt, they're not going to IL him. He's not yet the Sale he was before the elbow injury, but he's not useless. The Astros are a pretty good team. Can't expect anyone to dominate them.
 

tims4wins

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Isn't there a game thread for this?

If he's not hurt, they're not going to IL him. He's not yet the Sale he was before the elbow injury, but he's not useless. The Astros are a pretty good team. Can't expect anyone to dominate them.
I don’t think anyone was expecting or hoping
for dominance. But 2+ men on every inning is a recipe for disaster.

2 starts, 11 outs. I don’t think that it would be asking too much to expect more from your $30M / year ace.
 

scottyno

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I don’t think anyone was expecting or hoping
for dominance. But 2+ men on every inning is a recipe for disaster.

2 starts, 11 outs. I don’t think that it would be asking too much to expect more from your $30M / year ace.
He gave up 1 run, was better than the other guy, and they left the inning with the lead. Obviously it's not what they were hoping for, but not exactly a disaster
 

Leskanic's Thread

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Reeeeeally feels like neither Astros fans or Boston fans want a comparison made that can lead to an easy "sure, they're both pairs of cheaters" retort.
 

joe dokes

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He gave up 1 run, was better than the other guy, and they left the inning with the lead. Obviously it's not what they were hoping for, but not exactly a disaster
I was weirdly encouraged that it didn't all go to hell in his time out there and that he actually got a couple of outs when he really really needed them. (Damning with faint praise, I know). At least it didnt cause any relievers to have to do anything insane.

And overall, Sox pitchers did a reasonable job with that lineup. Ultimately, they will fall off the tightrope, but they mostly made key pitches when they needed to.
 

54thMA

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This probably isn't the right thread, but the Barnes situation makes me wonder. Totally objectively, should the coaching staff be applauded for making him an all star closer in the first half of the year, or if they should be criticized for not being able to figure out how to at least make him a usable arm for the playoffs. Hell, even 2018 playoff Barnes would be really helpful.
Given the contract the team gave him, it would appear that the team believed at least some of the helium was real.
Whatever his situation is, him being massively ineffective really hurts this team.

He was their closer the first half of the year, if he still was on his game, then the bullpen sets up nicely with Tilt and Ottavino for the 7th, Robles and Whitlock for the 8th and Barnes as your closer.

Him being broken really is a problem.
 

54thMA

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People have given some good reasons for the Sale decision in game 1. Let me add this possibility: If Eovaldi starts game 1 and they lose (even if he pitches well), you’re in more dire straits for a game 2 win, and I’m not sure Sale is the guy. If Sale loses game 1, at least you have your best starter going game 2 and it gives you the best chance to go home with a split instead of down two games to none.

So game 2 might be more “important” than game 1, hence Eovaldi there instead of game 1.

I dunno...spitballing here.
Sale was not very effective last night, but that did not kill them; their inability to drive in RISP last night was a killer, based loaded, 2nd and 3rd once, runner on third twice and they ended up with nothing in a one run loss.

Your ace is going today, I'm expecting a much better result today, win this game and go home tied 1-1, then it's a best of five.
 

BaseballJones

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Sale was not very effective last night, but that did not kill them; their inability to drive in RISP last night was a killer, based loaded, 2nd and 3rd once, runner on third twice and they ended up with nothing in a one run loss.

Your ace is going today, I'm expecting a much better result today, win this game and go home tied 1-1, then it's a best of five.
And it would be a best of five with the Sox having HFA.

So let’s go!!!!
 

ricopetro6

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Timely hitting was absent for sure, but the Sox key bullpen arms were bad. Houck and Nobles had no control and no idea why Sawamura was in a 1 run game in the 8th) The ump was calling strikes consistently 2 inches off the outside corner to RH batters. They should have lived out there. Partial blame to Vaz as he wasn't getting his fat arse out there enough and setting a good target(although didn't matter with Robles as he had no idea where his pitches were going)
 

E5 Yaz

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As I said in the game thread, he's right about the initial positioning, but I think it's unclear whether the ball actually hits the stool or is just headed in that direction anyway.

Wouldn't be surprised if Cora asks that the umpires move him tonight
 

amRadio

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If I wanted to possibly curtail runners coming in from first on balls headed to the corner, and I had the level of integrity of many of the Houston Astro's on-field and front-office personnel, I'd tell the ball boy to be right there. That's basically exactly where he is sitting.

As I said in the game thread, he's right about the initial positioning, but I think it's unclear whether the ball actually hits the stool or is just headed in that direction anyway.

Wouldn't be surprised if Cora asks that the umpires move him tonight
It seems extremely clear that in that Merloni tweet that the ball initially makes contact with the left most leg of the stool before hitting the wall further to the left.
 

joe dokes

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As I said in the game thread, he's right about the initial positioning, but I think it's unclear whether the ball actually hits the stool or is just headed in that direction anyway.

Wouldn't be surprised if Cora asks that the umpires move him tonight
At 1st I thought it hit the stool. On a replay, though, it clearly (to me) didn't. It was pure luck since the attendant left the stool. They almost always grab the stool when avoiding a possibly fair ball.
 

ricopetro6

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As I said in the game thread, he's right about the initial positioning, but I think it's unclear whether the ball actually hits the stool or is just headed in that direction anyway.

Wouldn't be surprised if Cora asks that the umpires move him tonight
it seems clear it hit the stool and no way the ball boy should be sitting where he was. If sitting 2-3' more to the right, he's not in the way of a ball heading down the line into the corner.
 

ricopetro6

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At 1st I thought it hit the stool. On a replay, though, it clearly (to me) didn't. It was pure luck since the attendant left the stool. They almost always grab the stool when avoiding a possibly fair ball.
it ricochets off the stool leg then the wall like a pinball machine.
 

amRadio

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I don't care much one way or the other. Teams do shit like this all the time, I pretty much feel like it's close enough to "gamesmanship" and if it wasn't the Astros I wouldn't commit even one sentence to the issue.

That said, you guys need to clean your screens or full screen that tweet or something. The ball absolutely makes contact with the stool.
 
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jmanny24

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It is tough to tell for sure but (to me) it looks like the last bounce before hitting the wall is more of a sharp(ish) turn to the left, not a truer bounce you would expect off the dirt there.
 

Ferm Sheller

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It is tough to tell for sure but (to me) it looks like the last bounce before hitting the wall is more of a sharp(ish) turn to the left, not a truer bounce you would expect off the dirt there.
It actually takes two sharp lefts, first when it hits where the grass meets the dirt and then again when it hits the chalk.
 

amRadio

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I don't believe JD would have scored had the ball traveled down the RF line unimpeded by the stool. The proper ruling of the play would have put JD at third base, I believe. Even if that were not the case, I still don't believe this play decided the game. Robles did. It is largely inconsequential yet I still feel some odd compulsion to die on the hill of "it clearly hit that fucking stool, guys." If you don't see that ball hitting the stool, you're not looking with your eyes.

Anywho, may Eovaldi mow pricks down and homefield advantage shift our way. Have a glorious game 2, SOSH.
 

soxhop411

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well the Astros rotation is a bit of a mess now

View: https://twitter.com/MacCerullo/status/1449539015737163782
Odorizzi was supposed to be Houston’s Game 4 starter. Now the Astros rotation plans beyond Uriquidy are a big question mark. Baker said they aren’t sure if Luis Garcia will need to be shut down. Apparently this isn’t a new issue and he just hadn’t said anything.
Luis García is being evaluated for a strain in his right (push-off) knee, Dusty Baker said. @MLBNetwork
View: https://twitter.com/jonmorosi/status/1449538443269132294


View: https://twitter.com/Chandler_Rome/status/1449539207672709131
Dusty Baker hinted that Luis Garcia's knee had been bothering him off and on, but Garcia didn't tell the team about it and pitched through it.
 
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JOBU

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technically yes, but winning 3 in a row is not easy. Win today, take 2 of 3 at home then go to Hou needing 1 win.
Don’t need to win 3 in a row. I forget who said it first but they just need 3 one game win streaks