Al Horford: he gawn

ehaz

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Please Jimmy, change your mind and go to LAC and take Kawhi with you.
 

Jimbodandy

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This is awful. The guy was nothing but a professional as a Celtic and couldn't come back given their cap space and their decision to sign Walker. You are really mad at him for that?
Al took more money than we were offering, on his last big deal as a pro.

If he went to the LAL, I could see some soreness, but money is money. Guy was a gem here.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Al took more money than we were offering, on his last big deal as a pro.

If he went to the LAL, I could see some soreness, but money is money. Guy was a gem here.
Agreed. Horford was amazing - worth every penny they paid him while some in the local media and fan base complained he didn't score enough (because they clearly didn't know what sort of player Horford was before he got here) and referred to him as "Average". Now, because he was offered more money than Boston could pay him, some folks are slandering him.

To be blunt, if you are are mad at Al Horford, you don't understand economics or, more importantly, basketball.
 

MuzzyField

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The Al hate is ridiculous, get some perspective, he is the definition of professional.

He basically took the extra $30-million, good for him, he's earned it. Raise your hand if you wouldn't do the same.
 

scottyno

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Agreed. Horford was amazing - worth every penny they paid him while some in the local media and fan base complained he didn't score enough (because they clearly didn't know what sort of player Horford was before he got here) and referred to him as "Average". Now, because he was offered more money than Boston could pay him, some folks are slandering him.

To be blunt, if you are are mad at Al Horford, you don't understand economics or, more importantly, basketball.
I'd be more mad at him if he took the same deal in Dallas or Sacramento, then it's clearly all about the money. He's about to sign his last major deal, and he's never been to the finals before, it sucks, but right now joining Philly gives him a better chance to do that than Boston, that he's getting extra money too makes it easier to choose.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I'd be more mad at him if he took the same deal in Dallas or Sacramento, then it's clearly all about the money. He's about to sign his last major deal, and he's never been to the finals before, it sucks, but right now joining Philly gives him a better chance to do that than Boston, that he's getting extra money too makes it easier to choose.
Why would you be mad at a person who is likely on their last chance to earn a big payday and took the most money? I don't get this line of thinking at all.
 

scottyno

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Why would you be mad at a person who is likely on their last chance to earn a big payday and took the most money? I don't get this line of thinking at all.
Should have worded that better, can't be mad at him either way, but I can understand it a lot more that he's going to a team that can actually compete, doesn't really bother me that he chose a Cs rival vs any other competing team like some people seem to be upset over.
 

heavyde050

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Al was amazing for the Celtics. Just a great basketball player and a true professional.
It still won’t be fun to watch him play for the Sixers.
 

teddykgb

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Vindication for the Start Baynes contingent. Al left in part because he didn’t want to play center and it wore him down.
Vindication comes if he plays the 4 and it works. Sixers are going to test if the NBA really has changed, I guess. In my view, as good as Horford is, teams are going to empty the paint on them and get quick guards mismatches. Then kick to 3s when the defense collapses. It should be fairly easy to run actions where you bury Simmons in the corner on a man and bring all their bigs to the other side to work whichever matchup you want
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Should have worded that better, can't be mad at him either way, but I can understand it a lot more that he's going to a team that can actually compete, doesn't really bother me that he chose a Cs rival vs any other competing team like some people seem to be upset over.
Understood - totally fair. And to be clear, I could have worded my response better as well. Its going to be tough watching him play for the 76ers but it makes sense.

On another note, its kind of staggering how fast the Celtics unraveled after this past season. No blame being assigned from me - its amazing how far their fortunes have fallen since this time last year.
 

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The Al hate is ridiculous, get some perspective, he is the definition of professional.

He basically took the extra $30-million, good for him, he's earned it. Raise your hand if you wouldn't do the same.
Al Horford was a class act who made his teammates better, and our best big man since Kevin Garnett. It will be hard watching him play for our rivals, but truth to tell -- the 76ers are probably the favorites in the East. Milwaukee has lost Brogdon and Mirotic, gaining only draft picks, and Toronto is likely to lose Leonard. Everybody else in the East has gotten worse (including the Celtics), and Philadelphia is going for it now.

Well, Brooklyn has probably improved a notch, at least until Kyrie implodes their clubhouse.

Thread title duly changed.
 

lovegtm

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Understood - totally fair. And to be clear, I could have worded my response better as well. Its going to be tough watching him play for the 76ers but it makes sense.

On another note, its kind of staggering how fast the Celtics unraveled after this past season. No blame being assigned from me - its amazing how far their fortunes have fallen since this time last year.
“Unraveled” seems too hot a take, surprised since that’s not usually your thing. They replaced Kyrie with Kemba, which is probably a net upgrade given chemistry and fit. They lost 33 year-old Al Horford because they didn’t want to pay him, but the writing was always on the wall with him due to age. Not having him is definitely a big immediate downgrade, but that bullet had to be bitten at some point.

They’re not contenders at all as is, but their gaping hole is at the easiest position to fill in the NBA, and guys always come available. The team as is isn’t great, but the paths forward aren’t too complex (Hayward health, J progression, and a move for a big at some point).
 

maufman

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“Unraveled” seems too hot a take, surprised since that’s not usually your thing. They replaced Kyrie with Kemba, which is probably a net upgrade given chemistry and fit. They lost 33 year-old Al Horford because they didn’t want to pay him, but the writing was always on the wall with him due to age. Not having him is definitely a big immediate downgrade, but that bullet had to be bitten at some point.

They’re not contenders at all as is, but their gaping hole is at the easiest position to fill in the NBA, and guys always come available. The team as is isn’t great, but the paths forward aren’t too complex (Hayward health, J progression, and a move for a big at some point).
It doesn’t seem like a hot take to me, but in retrospect, a big chunk of the so-called “unraveling” was the C’s being exposed as criminally overrated. Last summer’s hype was built on a series of assumptions that proved false (Kyrie is a top-10 player, Hayward is a top-20 player, JB is ready to contribute meaningfully to a contender, MaMo and Rozier are good complementary players who accept their roles, etc.).
 

lovegtm

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It doesn’t seem like a hot take to me, but in retrospect, a big chunk of the so-called “unraveling” was the C’s being exposed as criminally overrated. Last summer’s hype was built on a series of assumptions that proved false (Kyrie is a top-10 player, Hayward is a top-20 player, JB is ready to contribute meaningfully to a contender, MaMo and Rozier are good complementary players who accept their roles, etc.).
That’s fair. Relative to what we thought we had last summer, it’s definitely an unraveling. Relative to what we now know about those players, things are positioned decently imo, even if it’s not the insta-dynasty it looked like.

I’m a process guy, so I’m enjoying all of this, and I think it will be fun to root for the team next year.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Will miss Al but even with him, we weren't going to beat LAL - assuming KL signs there - unless JB and JT blossom into All-Stars. Now we get to see what we really have in them.
 

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Really happy ainge walked away from Horford. Paying a 33, 34, 35 and 36 year old Al would have been stupid at the money he got. He has durability issues now at this stage of his career playing 68, 72 and 68 games the last 3 years. I dont think hes going to get more durable as hes ages only get worse.
 

Captaincoop

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Why would you be mad at a person who is likely on their last chance to earn a big payday and took the most money? I don't get this line of thinking at all.
Probably because he's a sports fan. Short for "fanatic". And isn't thinking about this like an economist or a labor union member, but as a Celtics fan watching a popular player join a rival team?

Just a theory.
 

RetractableRoof

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Really happy ainge walked away from Horford. Paying a 33, 34, 35 and 36 year old Al would have been stupid at the money he got. He has durability issues now at this stage of his career playing 68, 72 and 68 games the last 3 years. I dont think hes going to get more durable as hes ages only get worse.
On one hand I agree with everything you just said. On the other, this is the NBA, they just need Embid and Horford to give each other enough cover (managing minutes) to get to the playoffs and then with all the days off, unless there really is an injury - they can make it work.

I for one will miss Horford - he's the kind of player we were taught to be growing up - class act, professional, no drama.
 

BaseballJones

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It’s going to be annoying as hell watching Al kill the Celtics on the pick and pop
Well right now it’s hard to see how the Celtics deal with both Horford and Embiid. Al was the best defender in the league against Embiid and now they’re playing together. Meanwhile the Celtics basically have nobody at the 5.

Maybe Grant Williams, because he’s strong and mobile, can guard Al, even though he’s three inches shorter? And Time Lord against Embiid? Yikes.

Just hope that defensively the Sixera get shredded by Kemba, Jaylen, Hayward, and Tatum.
 

JCizzle

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Well right now it’s hard to see how the Celtics deal with both Horford and Embiid. Al was the best defender in the league against Embiid and now they’re playing together. Meanwhile the Celtics basically have nobody at the 5.

Maybe Grant Williams, because he’s strong and mobile, can guard Al, even though he’s three inches shorter? And Time Lord against Embiid? Yikes.

Just hope that defensively the Sixera get shredded by Kemba, Jaylen, Hayward, and Tatum.
Also concerned about how we body Embiid. He's going to bully the hell out of Time Lord, Theis, etc.
 

BaseballJones

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Also concerned about how we body Embiid. He's going to bully the hell out of Time Lord, Theis, etc.
Right that’s what I’m getting at. He’s going to abuse anyone on the Celtics in the post now that Al and Baynes are gone.
 

lovegtm

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Right that’s what I’m getting at. He’s going to abuse anyone on the Celtics in the post now that Al and Baynes are gone.
Offseason isn’t over, I doubt this is what they’ll be rolling out for bigs in the final iteration.

In a hypothetical where they had to use this personnel against Philly, they’d swarm the hell out of the post, basically zoning, and bet on being able to close out to shooters. Losing Reddick and Butler hurts a lot here imo.
 

the moops

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I think folks are sleeping on Josh Richardson. He is an excellent shooter and one of the best wing defenders in the league. PHI defense is going to be terrifying and the addition of Richardson easiky outweighs the loss of Redick.
 

DrewDawg

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I think folks are sleeping on Josh Richardson. He is an excellent shooter and one of the best wing defenders in the league. PHI defense is going to be terrifying and the addition of Richardson easiky outweighs the loss of Redick.
Last night it was reported the 3-way trade fell through. Has it been resurrected?
 

bosockboy

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I think folks are sleeping on Josh Richardson. He is an excellent shooter and one of the best wing defenders in the league. PHI defense is going to be terrifying and the addition of Richardson easiky outweighs the loss of Redick.
Not sure that deal as constructed is on anymore. Fell apart.
 

benhogan

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Really happy ainge walked away from Horford. Paying a 33, 34, 35 and 36 year old Al would have been stupid at the money he got. He has durability issues now at this stage of his career playing 68, 72 and 68 games the last 3 years. I dont think hes going to get more durable as hes ages only get worse.
Agreed. The way the Celtics/Brad used Al, 90% of the time at the 5, he wouldn't be worth that money. He'd never last, his knee issues would crop up.

BUT Philly wisely saw an All-Star 4 in Horford and will now play him next to Embiid. Horford has always been more efficient as a 4, but the Celtics didn't utilize him that way. Al will receive less pounding at the 4 and will play some back-up/small ball minutes at the 5 for Philly.

It also wouldn't shock me if Al wanted to play the 4 more now than the 5 (he's said as much).

BTW Is there any 4 in the NBA that Al Horford can't guard?
HRB's list included Wilson Chandler, Dorian Finney Smith etc :drunk:

Yep, BH on brand and pounding the drum, buts it's fading fast with Horford/Baynes exit.
 
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lovegtm

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The way the Celtics/Brad used Al, 90% of the time at the 5, he wouldn't be worth that money.

BUT Philly wisely saw an All-Star 4 in Horford and will now play him next to Embiid. Horford has always been more efficient as a 4, but the Celtics didn't utilize him that way

It also wouldn't shock me if Al wanted to play the 4 more now than the 5 (he's said as much).
So your solution is...have Joel Embiid?

I’m not sold on 33-36 Al at 25/year regardless. Would rather find a path to going younger and cheaper at the 5.
 

benhogan

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So your solution is...have Joel Embiid?

I’m not sold on 33-36 Al at 25/year regardless. Would rather find a path to going younger and cheaper at the 5.
come on lovegtm you're better than that, where did I say that?

I think I may have mentioned once or twice putting Al at the 4 ;)

It didn't matter if it was Baynes or Theis or TL. A defense first 5 with Al would work.
 
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lovegtm

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Ha. I think I may have mentioned once or twice putting Al at the 4 ;)

It didn't matter if it was Baynes or Theis or TL. A defense first 5 with Al would work
Yeah, let’s not rehash this too much. Baynes was hurt a ton last year, and TL simply wasn’t (isn’t) ready for that yet, at least not to a degree that would convince Al he wouldn’t be pressed into 5 duty.

By doing that you’re also forcing a downgrade at one position just to pay a 33 year-old 4/100. Philly obv doesn’t have that issue, because they tanked at the right time and have one of the best 3 centers in the league.

Al had a great run in Boston, and it just doesn’t fit for it to continue. Hopefully they can find ways to retool around the position.
 

benhogan

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Yeah, let’s not rehash this too much. Baynes was hurt a ton last year, and TL simply wasn’t (isn’t) ready for that yet, at least not to a degree that would convince Al he wouldn’t be pressed into 5 duty.

By doing that you’re also forcing a downgrade at one position just to pay a 33 year-old 4/100. Philly obv doesn’t have that issue, because they tanked at the right time and have one of the best 3 centers in the league.

Al had a great run in Boston, and it just doesn’t fit for it to continue. Hopefully they can find ways to retool around the position.
It's quite simple and has little to nothing to do with Baynes, or TL or any other misunderstanding you may have here

Al Horford is an All-Star at the 4
 

GBA

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It's quite simple and has little to nothing to do with Baynes, or TL or any other misunderstanding you may have here

Al Horford is an All-Star at the 4
Probably, but he’s only made the team as a 5. He’s also played as a 5 the vast majority of his career (even when he was still undersized at the position).
 

lovegtm

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It's quite simple and has little to nothing to do with Baynes, or TL or any other misunderstanding you may have here

Al Horford is an All-Star at the 4
No, I get it, and I don’t even disagree. The issue is that to get value out of his ability at the 4, you need to get rid of the logjam at the 2-3 spot (or 2-3 if you prefer) AND do a talent upgrade at the 5, all while committing a large contract to by far the oldest player on your roster.

I mean, I guess you could try to move Brown or Smart for a young, promising big, but those trades didn’t really seem to be out there, since Indy doesn’t want to move Sabonis or Turner, Chicago likes Carter, etc.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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A little worried about the passing, but much less than I was a week ago when I didn't expect we'd land someone like Kemba. Would love if we could somehow parlay losing Al into becoming a better rebounding team but the roster pieces aren't there right now (yet).

Looking forward to seeing how we attack them. I don't get why it would be so obvious that Al aged 33-36 will be unconditionally great chasing 4s around the perimeter all the time. We'll see.
 

benhogan

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No, I get it, and I don’t even disagree. The issue is that to get value out of his ability at the 4, you need to get rid of the logjam at the 2-3 spot (or 2-3 if you prefer) AND do a talent upgrade at the 5, all while committing a large contract to by far the oldest player on your roster.

I mean, I guess you could try to move Brown or Smart for a young, promising big, but those trades didn’t really seem to be out there, since Indy doesn’t want to move Sabonis or Turner, Chicago likes Carter, etc.
fair enough, no use crying over spilled milk. We've been pretty much on the same page here before.

The positive spin is a healthy Hayward actually goes a long way in replacing Horford's offense. AND If Brown/Tatum come back bigger, stronger that helps with the defense.

from Philly's perspective, I like the Horford deal much better than the Tobias Harris contract. I'm just glad Philly didn't go do the Brogdon deal instead of wasting all that money on Harris.
 
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HomeRunBaker

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Probably, but he’s only made the team as a 5. He’s also played as a 5 the vast majority of his career (even when he was still undersized at the position).
Stop this insanity. Horford’s knee gets worn down playing the 5. He needs to be chasing wings out at the 3-pt line for it to feel right.
 

lovegtm

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fair enough, no use crying over spilled milk. We've been pretty much on the same page here before.

The positive spin is a healthy Hayward actually goes a long way in replacing Horford's offense. AND If Brown/Tatum come back bigger, stronger that helps with the defense.

from Philly's perspective, I like the Horford deal much better than the Tobias Harris contract. I'm just glad Philly didn't go do the Brogdon deal instead of wasting all that money on Harris.
I hadn’t even thought of Brogdon to Philly. That would have made so much more sense than Harris.
 

Rook05

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It's quite simple and has little to nothing to do with Baynes, or TL or any other misunderstanding you may have here

Al Horford is an All-Star at the 4
Good for Al—can’t really blame him. That said, I’m betting he plays more 5 than we think, especially in the regular season if/when Embiid gets his load management days...or he goes down for an extended period of time.
 

benhogan

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Probably, but he’s only made the team as a 5. He’s also played as a 5 the vast majority of his career (even when he was still undersized at the position).
In ATL he was paired with Josh Smith who was also a defensive minded 4/5.

Pairing Al with MaMo or a gimpy Hayward at the 4/5 put 100% of rim/lane protection on Al's shoulders.

Go look at Al's efficiency numbers when he played the 4 vs the 5 as a Celtic.
 

benhogan

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Stop this insanity. Horford’s knee gets worn down playing the 5. He needs to be chasing wings out at the 3-pt line for it to feel right.
well Brad finally got it right the last 2 weeks of the season...Aron Baynes awaits your mea culpa on that ;)
 

benhogan

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I hadn’t even thought of Brogdon to Philly. That would have made so much more sense than Harris.
Philly is being poorly run, so we have that going for us. They just compounded that awful Tobias Harris trade with an awful contract
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I think folks are sleeping on Josh Richardson. He is an excellent shooter and one of the best wing defenders in the league. PHI defense is going to be terrifying and the addition of Richardson easiky outweighs the loss of Redick.
Agree with you about PHI's defense but PHI is really going to miss JJ on the offensive end. As of April of last year, Embiid and Reddick had a two-man net rating of +11.6 (ORtg = 111.2 and DRtg = 99.6), which I believe was best on the Sixers. See https://fansided.com/2019/04/15/nylon-calculus-jj-redick-relies-joel-embiid-shot-creation/.

Richardson may be a good shooter but the motion that Reddick gave to the Sixers isn't going to be easily replaced.

Agreed. The way the Celtics/Brad used Al, 90% of the time at the 5, he wouldn't be worth that money. He'd never last, his knee issues would crop up.

BUT Philly wisely saw an All-Star 4 in Horford and will now play him next to Embiid. Horford has always been more efficient as a 4, but the Celtics didn't utilize him that way. Al will receive less pounding at the 4 and will play some back-up/small ball minutes at the 5 for Philly.

It also wouldn't shock me if Al wanted to play the 4 more now than the 5 (he's said as much).

BTW Is there any 4 in the NBA that Al Horford can't guard?
HRB's list included Wilson Chandler, Dorian Finney Smith etc :drunk:

Yep, BH on brand and pounding the drum, buts it's fading fast with Horford/Baynes exit.
Love your consistency. Yes, PHI is going to be incredibly long on defense but someone still has to chase the Joe Harris's and (dare I say) JJ Reddick's around screens. But getting back to Al, I am interested in seeing how Brett Brown uses all of his guys. It's not like Al and Simmons are going to be playing a lot of pick and roll - I'm sure they'll do it sometimes but it's still Embiid's team and you don't want to take the ball out of his hands.

Plus, when Embiid starts pounding the ball in the paint, what is Al going to do? Sit in the corner?

There is a greater than 0% chance that PHI's offense is worse than last year because they don't have enough ball or player movement.

This is not to say that PHI isn't the favorite if KL goes West. But PHI is not like LAL with KL.
 
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benhogan

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Horford will be on the perimeter, moving the ball, finding the open man or shooting open 3s. Unless he gets a mismatch and will take advantage of that in the post.
At this point, Philly would have been more than fine with Landry Shamet instead of Tobias Harris. And they could have signed local guy Marcus Morris Jr at a 1/3 of the cost and received similar production

Philly is Lakers East Coast, they are falling into good stuff in spite of their ineptness.