Not that signing Salty over Pierzynski would even remotely be the difference for this year's team, but (streaks aside) Saltalamacchia has been a full win better than Pierzynski this season, and is projected by ZiPS/Steamer to be 1.5-2 wins better by season's end. This is while costing the Marlins $3M less than the Red Sox paid for Pierzynski. That's not to say that the QO would have been worth it, but 2 wins from your catcher is nothing to sneeze at.
AJP gets exorcised and Christian Vazquez up. Starts tonight
- Thread starter RedOctober3829
- Start date
I don't think there's many people that would have disagreed that one year of Salty > one year of AJ this offseason. Almost everyone would have wanted him back (albeit not at a QO price.) The problem was, to keep Salty we needed to make a 3 year deal with him. His bat doesn't carry at 1B and we've got Swihart and Vazquez. There just wasn't room for him.
Devizier said:
I don't follow this math -- Pierzynski signed for 1/8.25; Salty signed with Miami for 3/21.
I'm pleased they didn't sign Salty, and more so that they didn't waste any more time with Pierzynski, whose signing turned out to be the disaster that everybody predicted.
Miami probably got a bargain in Salty, who is a serviceable major league catcher with power upside, but with Vazquez and Swihart maturing there is no way that the Red Sox should have looked to sign a catcher to a multi-year contract during the offseason.
I disagree with this logic. There's no guarantee those guys are better than Saltalamacchia in 2015 or even 2016. And if they are but Salty is still worth the remaining money on the deal, then he's a tradeable asset.BosRedSox5 said:
Maybe they thought he didn't project to be worth that contract (based on his BABIP-fueled 2013 or defensive issues), but not signing someone because you're worried about blocking players who are two years away is crazy to me. There's so much uncertainty there.
Super Nomario said:
Swihart is probably a year away still; Vazquez is up to the majors just a month or two ahead of schedule. There's lots of uncertainty, to be sure, but Christian is here, he's now, he's happening.
There's no guarantee that Vazquez/Swihart will be better than Salty in 2015, but by all accounts their defense is superior, they're dirt cheap and in need of playing time.
He's here now because Pierzynski was awful. If they had re-signed Saltalamacchia, Vazquez would most likely still be in Pawtucket. It's not like he was lighting the International League on fire.Sprowl said:
If you get to the point where you also have young alternatives who are cheaper and major-league ready, you can trade Saltalamacchia if he's still an asset at his contract. What doesn't make sense to me is holding off signing him because you are worried about being in that situation a year from now. Having two or three players at a position who are good and worth their salaries is a good situation, not one to be avoided.Sprowl said:
I'm not saying that's what the Red Sox did - I think it's likely they just think Saltalamacchia isn't very good (and maybe they're right, maybe they're wrong).
Saltalamacchia has been -9 runs according to BP's context-neutral pitch framing numbers this year and has been -19 runs when count is taken into account (that is, his bad frames have disproportionately come in more important counts). AJP was -3.7, -5 with about the same number of pitches. (Ross is +6, +11.6)
So if you believe the evidence on framing being a skill, Salty gives up nearly what he adds at the plate by being terrible at just framing (not taking into account the other elements of catching).
edit, forgot link: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/sortable/index.php?cid=1667331
So if you believe the evidence on framing being a skill, Salty gives up nearly what he adds at the plate by being terrible at just framing (not taking into account the other elements of catching).
edit, forgot link: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/sortable/index.php?cid=1667331
Super Nomario said:
Vazquez doesn't need to light any league in fire with his bat (indeed, he probably never will). If his defense is as advertised, all he needs to do is to work the pitcher, extend the at-bat, and get the occasional base hit. I wouldn't expect much more of him on offense at any level, yet that would still be an improvement on AJP, and probably on Salty as well. I think catcher's defense is that important.
I'm not so sure that it's easy to trade an underperforming catcher without eating a lot of salary. AJP had to be DFA'd.
I agree that they think Salty isn't very good. I think the same.
Sprowl said:
Yes, and (assuming the team was in contention) it's not as simple a thing to just switch over to a new primary catcher in the middle of the campaign as it would be for other positions around the diamond.
Edit: In reference to the idea of Vazquez or Swihart forcing their way in, and Salty's way out.
I honestly would rather watch Vazquez hit .190 than watch Pierzynski hit .260. And the way all the other aspects of the game stack up, Vazquez even if he hits .190 is probably a better player for this team than this washed-up version of Pierzynski anyway.
Nice night at the plate so far for the kid, too-- first big league hit, first RBIs, first doubles; 3 hits, 3 RBIs so far.
Nice night at the plate so far for the kid, too-- first big league hit, first RBIs, first doubles; 3 hits, 3 RBIs so far.
He said it with a huge smile, so I'm hoping it was intentional, but I doubt it... when asked about any text messages he might have received after the first double, Vazquez said he hadn't checked his phone yet.
Coincidence, or a dig at AJ? If only, right?
I'll see if I can find a transcript but it was just on NESN.
Coincidence, or a dig at AJ? If only, right?
I'll see if I can find a transcript but it was just on NESN.
Yes, it's a coincidence. Unless you think teammates and an organization colluded to get him to mock a player he never met on a broadcast few people are watching.
The Gray Eagle said:
He really did look like a mini-molina as he chugged around the bases. A mini-Yadi (with the bat) would be something else, but even Bengie and Jose had long and useful careers just by being great catchers.
Not that youre suggesting otherwise, but there's rarely certainty. But in the catcher scenario, there were, from the team's perspective, a couple of pretty good probabilities. That vazquez could cacth in MLB and that they (thought) they knew *exactly* what they had in Salty going forward. Obviously they could be wrong, but the Sox think the probability is/was that Salty would *not* be (or not deserve to be) the #1 catcher after this season. Another way to look at the relatively (surprising to me) cheap ticket Miami paid is to say, "Jeez, collectively, MLB doesn't think too much of Salty," which might suggest that he's not as much of a tradeable asset as some might think.
joe dokes said:
I think Salty is comparable to Lowrie in that he's a tweener--not good enough defensively to be a strong play at the premium position, and not quite a good enough hitter to be a strong play at a less demanding position. Useful, yet problematic.
It's obviously much too early to draw any real conclusions, but it would be really satisfying to see Vazquez and/or Swihart blossom into solid MLB catchers while the MFY, who supposedly had cornered the market on catching prospects for a time, stumble along with McCann getting old and rich before our very eyes.
Vazquez certainly looks the part.
Vazquez certainly looks the part.
He's considerably faster than those guys, even when they were young, I hope. I just saw some NESN clips that showed him swinging the bat and crossing home plate. Even if he is really slow on the bases, which I doubt, looks like we really have something.joe dokes said:
I liked him receiving a low strike three and then pointing out to Lackey to give the big jamoke props on a nice pitch. Seems he has a lot of confidence and some swagger. Did he throw down to first behind a runner yet?PaulinMyrBch said:
Super Nomario said:
I don't think this is precisely right. When the Sox made their decision re: Salty last year, Vasquez was already a better defensive catcher, and had been for a while; the only questions about him since reaching Portland have been related to whether his hitting will come along.
I hated the AJP signing, as did most others, and I'm sure the FO saw all the warts we're privy to and more. But I can see the rationale in wanting to get a LH bat to complement Ross for a year, and thinking they can just go with Vasquez and his defense for the remainder of the year if AJP turns out to be a problem child, and then get another short signing next offseason if they thought they wanted more offense from the C spot. I suspect Swihart's the guy they're really waiting on anyways.
To me the A.J signing made SOME sense too. I haven't looked at the stats but didn't A.J's career numbers peak higher than Salty's on most columns? I think it was safe to say Salty wasn't going get that much better so they took a flier on A.J and hope his stats didn't decline. So we lost a little money, oh well he's cut bait and now we can move on. I did like Salty's attitude and personality but he was somewhat frustrating at times at the plate. He was too up and down. One week hitting great next week swinging through everything.
He faked a back pick to first last night, but the quickness of the footwork was impressive. I'm not much on faking back picks, because you just alert the runner that he's on your radar, but when you show up with a reputation for having a cannon, I doubt it matters much. You're back picking a runners mistake on a secondary lead at this level and this kid is going to make them pay.
Not to mention De La Rossa starting with Ranaudo right behind him. Just don't say the Sox are rebuilding, The Sox will never admit it, it being the denial that many here share.ivanvamp said:
seantoo said:
All teams are rebuilding at every point during a season. It's simply a matter to what degree. Bringing up young pitchers and releasing ONE veteran position starter is not a traumatic rebuild. Hell, we all knew they were in the midst of transition when the season started with Xander and JBJ in key spots.
No one denies that at all.
PaulinMyrBch said:
He did throw a runner out at 2nd on Wednesday, after a play at the plate was too late to make a tag.
Lose Remerswaal said:
It was also exceedingly close and the guy really might have been safe due to issues with the tag, but the ump immediately and forcefully made the call. It was enough to wonder if his rep earned him the call even though he's a rookie.
E5 Yaz said:
I'm not sure I understand this, because a lot of teams are not rebuilding at all... unless you mean to include rebuilding to a degree of 0 or into the negatives as a degree.
Certainly all teams are attempting to get better at all times, but is that what rebuilding means? If I have a nice house and add a few things to make it nicer, that's not rebuilding. If I smash out a kitchen wall and add an extension then I am rebuilding.
I don't see how you could consider the A's as rebuilding when they traded some of their best young assets for a chance at improving their position this year at the expense of their position next year. The Sox are making moves that will improve their position for next year at the expense of their position this year. They're not in full blown firesale mode, but trading Peavy would most likely make us weaker for this season and yet better for 2015. So might trading Lackey, or Nava, or Gomes, or Carp or all of them.
The Sox are rarely ever sellers, but this season they definitely are and rightfully so. Assuming they re-sign Lester they're going to be in a much stronger position to compete in 2015 because they'll still have payroll flexibility while also having some rookies who've been baptized by fire.
Reverend said:
I thought he might have been safe as well, but didn't want to mention that as I'm not sure it can't still be appealed.
Or can we plead "neighborhood play"?
The kid is putting on a receiving clinic today. It's sick how good he is at catching the ball. I've lost track of the strikes he's gotten for Buchholz. Guys are going to be begging to pitch to him. Ross is the personal receiver for Lester. I wonder how long before Lester tries him out?
Still, this week we've gotten the best performances of the season out of both Clay and Peavy.
It's definitely got something to do with the Astros, but the kid needs credit too, there's clearly something there that was missing before.
It's definitely got something to do with the Astros, but the kid needs credit too, there's clearly something there that was missing before.
Vazquez got some strikes today that AJ wouldn't. It's the way he receives that makes it easy for the ump. Glove is always flowing in to the zone on a pitch that is close. Plus he doesn't insult the ump by sticking a pitch that is clearly a ball. His work low in the zone is perfect. Thumb under, glove rolling up. He catches the breaking pitches deep and flows in on anything off the edge. There is no stick, move glove, and hold for a strike. When he frames, his glove flows through the ball into a better position. Its fluid and its just beautiful.
We'll see how things look in a few weeks, but based on the innings I've seen the pitchers have got to be jacked about pitching to this guy.
We'll see how things look in a few weeks, but based on the innings I've seen the pitchers have got to be jacked about pitching to this guy.
Adrian's Dome said:
Clay did retire the last 10 batters he faced in his previous start with Pierzynski catching, but yes Vazquez is fun to watch.
Given that one of the more attractive alternatives is likely to be Brian McCann, I'm not sure we want to go there.curly2 said:
PaulinMyrBch said:
Yes, A.J. did this egregiously and way too often. It was so obvious that even a framing dunce like me could see it.
To be fair, Ross handled the Peavy game.Adrian's Dome said:
Regarding Swihart, does his bat project to allow him to get some time at a position like 1B or DH? Would it be feasible to have Vazquez catching the bulk of the games, while Swihart picks up the remainder and serves as part of a 1B or DH platoon once Nap and Ortiz are gone?
As I've argued a few times the MiL forum, this must be a scenario (not THE, but a) the FO is contemplating. But the question is not Swihart's bat, and never really has been. Nor is it necessarily a question of an alternate position for him. He's such a tremendous athlete that he could obviously take a few games a week at 1B or DH -- but can play anywhere on the diamond except SS and CF, even 2B if he doesn't fill out too much. Not that he would, mind you; the idea would be to rest him while Vazquez catches, so ideally you'd want him at 1B or DH.Hank Scorpio said:
But the question, as I said, is not with him. It's with Vazquez and whether he has the bat to play everyday or close to everyday. That's why they kept him in AAA this year -- he's been ready defensively for quite some time. Part of what they're evaluating right now is whether they see in his bat a projectable everyday guy.
Certainly, though, Swihart is capable of carrying a lot of options if the golden scenario -- both of them becoming plus everyday catchers -- plays out. On the other hand, if that happens they become highly valuable trade chips, if they are not already sorta valuable. (Swihart, IMO, is the top prospect in the system not merely as valued by the Red Sox, but by other organizations.) So the Golden Scenario could have all kinds of payouts none of us can see yet.
I would also note that even if Vazquez isn't actually stealing a few strikes, the fact that the pitchers are gushing about him suggests there may be some intangible psychological benefit to having Vazquez catch for them insted of AJP. If a guy like Buchholz feels more loose and confident because he sees Vazquez behind the plate, all the better.
If you comb Cafardo's articles carefully, once in a while you can find something useful in there that someone else has said. Today: "Yes, Red Sox catcher Christian Vazquez didn’t drop one ball in his major league debut last Wednesday against the White Sox. A National League scout watching him that night said, “From a technical point of view, that was as solid a catching performance in an individual game that I’ve seen all season.”
On the other hand, he didn't block a pitch in the dirt today that got away and let the runner advance. It was ruled a wild pitch, but he should have blocked it. He didn't get his leg down and it five-holed him. Not a big deal really, but that's one that he would probably admit he should have had. Other than that, he looked tremendous behind the plate again. And two more hits! The hits are just gravy at this point. But I like gravy.
On the other hand, he didn't block a pitch in the dirt today that got away and let the runner advance. It was ruled a wild pitch, but he should have blocked it. He didn't get his leg down and it five-holed him. Not a big deal really, but that's one that he would probably admit he should have had. Other than that, he looked tremendous behind the plate again. And two more hits! The hits are just gravy at this point. But I like gravy.
The Gray Eagle said:
While Vazquez in an excellent defensive catcher, he did allow a surprisingly high number of past balls last season with Portland. Obviously he is very young and the rest of his defensive game is at an incredibly high level, but as of now he does have that as a problem area. I do not know if those passed ball problems followed him to Pawtucket this season, but is something to keep an eye for.
That is not to say that I am not very optimistic about his future. His defense alone should give him a long career as a backup, and he has some offensive tools that could allow him to be a valuable starter.
Really excited for CV going forward. It's been a while that a player from Puerto Rico, my native land (which has produced many great catchers), can have a great chance as a positional player for years to come.
sdiaz1 said:
I'm not sure where to get game logs for minor league stats, but did a good amount of those passed balls come when he was catching Wright (the knuckleballer)?
sdiaz1 said:
I bet a lot of those passed balls happened when he was catching Charlie Haegar, a knuckleballer. Vazquez only allowed five PBs in Pawtucket this year so I'm not sure its really a big concern.
DrewDawg said:
Yes, excellent correction. My bad.
Still looking for game logs / splits of minor league numbers (current year and previous)!
Vazquez's game logs from Portland on B-R
I went through Haegers, and there were 5 passed balls on Vazquez during those starts. I don't have time to go through all of these game logs, but if anyone has time, you click the date and it brings up the game box. CV had two in his first game where he got 1 AB, so he played a few innings likely.
I'm not concerned, passed balls while catching pro pitchers is part of development. You've got signal cross ups, control issues, Daniel Bard, Haeger, etc. on that team. I don't see anything that makes me believe he has issues receiving at this point. Whatever he was dealing with, I'd think its a thing of the past based on the glove we've seen.
I went through Haegers, and there were 5 passed balls on Vazquez during those starts. I don't have time to go through all of these game logs, but if anyone has time, you click the date and it brings up the game box. CV had two in his first game where he got 1 AB, so he played a few innings likely.
I'm not concerned, passed balls while catching pro pitchers is part of development. You've got signal cross ups, control issues, Daniel Bard, Haeger, etc. on that team. I don't see anything that makes me believe he has issues receiving at this point. Whatever he was dealing with, I'd think its a thing of the past based on the glove we've seen.