Adrian Peterson indicted for reckless/negligent injury to a child

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dcmissle

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This may kick off an interesting media firestorm.

I hope we'll find a solid supermajority believing that the age of the kid brings this out of the realm of reasonable discipline -- but I'm prepared to be disappointed.

I can easily see Fox News trotting out some fool who thinks this is liberalism run amuck, that it's sadly understandable in light of gay marriage, and that if we had been this soft back in the day, we'd have lost our freedom to Godless Communism.

If I were an aid to Pat Robertson, I'd be taping his mouth shut right now
 

Judge Mental13

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Alright I'm gonna say it : 
 
Adrian Peterson might be an awful guy, and an awful father, I have no idea, but this doesn't prove it to me. 
 
I don't believe that Peterson gets off on randomly hitting children, I believe he thinks it is an important part of being a father, the threat of spanking, the consequences of bad behavior, etc.  While some on this board may not think it's ever OK to spank your child, I happen to disagree, and think that there is a serious divide in this country whether or not that's OK and to what extent.  I don't have kids, and I won't pretend to know what the best way to discipline them is, but I'm not going to sit in judgement of a guy who spanked his kid too hard once. 
 
That being said, Peterson, (as evidenced by those photos) went overboard, and deserves to be punished for it, but spanking a kid too hard and punching out your girlfriend/wife are miles apart in my eyes, he's not Ray Rice.
 

Devizier

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dcmissle said:
If the kid was 4, there is no excuse. There is not even things-got-out-of- hand excuse. I have a 4 year old . Even if you are a fervent believer in corporal punishment, that is too young to do anything approaching this. Even in Texas.
yep, four year olds are literally helpless. My son's not there yet but it's inconceivable that I would ever strike him, let alone so brutally.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Judge Mental13 said:
Alright I'm gonna say it : 
 
Adrian Peterson might be an awful guy, and an awful father, I have no idea, but this doesn't prove it to me. 
 
I don't believe that Peterson gets off on randomly hitting children, I believe he thinks it is an important part of being a father, the threat of spanking, the consequences of bad behavior, etc.  While some on this board may not think it's ever OK to spank your child, I happen to disagree, and think that there is a serious divide in this country whether or not that's OK and to what extent.  I don't have kids, and I won't pretend to know what the best way to discipline them is, but I'm not going to sit in judgement of a guy who spanked his kid too hard once
 
That being said, Peterson, (as evidenced by those photos) went overboard, and deserves to be punished for it, but spanking a kid too hard and punching out your girlfriend/wife are miles apart in my eyes, he's not Ray Rice.
 
Do we have a different definition of spanking, or do you perhaps not know the facts of this case.
 
He hit a four-year old with a stick (after apparently making the child pick it off a tree, removing its leaves and putting them in the child's mouth) and then beat him with it on the legs, but and scrotum leaving open and bleeding welts.
 

MarcSullivaFan

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Judge Mental13 said:
Alright I'm gonna say it : 
 
Adrian Peterson might be an awful guy, and an awful father, I have no idea, but this doesn't prove it to me. 
 
I don't believe that Peterson gets off on randomly hitting children, I believe he thinks it is an important part of being a father, the threat of spanking, the consequences of bad behavior, etc.  While some on this board may not think it's ever OK to spank your child, I happen to disagree, and think that there is a serious divide in this country whether or not that's OK and to what extent.  I don't have kids, and I won't pretend to know what the best way to discipline them is, but I'm not going to sit in judgement of a guy who spanked his kid too hard once. 
 
That being said, Peterson, (as evidenced by those photos) went overboard, and deserves to be punished for it, but spanking a kid too hard and punching out your girlfriend/wife are miles apart in my eyes, he's not Ray Rice.
Spank? He beat him with a stick on his bare skin. What the fuck are you talking about?
 

rodderick

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Judge Mental13 said:
Alright I'm gonna say it : 
 
Adrian Peterson might be an awful guy, and an awful father, I have no idea, but this doesn't prove it to me. 
 
I don't believe that Peterson gets off on randomly hitting children, I believe he thinks it is an important part of being a father, the threat of spanking, the consequences of bad behavior, etc.  While some on this board may not think it's ever OK to spank your child, I happen to disagree, and think that there is a serious divide in this country whether or not that's OK and to what extent.  I don't have kids, and I won't pretend to know what the best way to discipline them is, but I'm not going to sit in judgement of a guy who spanked his kid too hard once
 
That being said, Peterson, (as evidenced by those photos) went overboard, and deserves to be punished for it, but spanking a kid too hard and punching out your girlfriend/wife are miles apart in my eyes, he's not Ray Rice.
 
Sure, beating your kid with a stick and causing lacerations that are visible a week after the fact is just an acceptable way of properly educating a four year old child. Let's not sit in judgement, guys.
 
Oh, and the fact that he reportedly had a "whooping room" really lends credence to the idea that this was the first and only time he did that kind of shit.
 

dcmissle

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litigator02 said:
+1, just to let Judge Mental know you're not by yourself on that island.
A 4-yr old? One of my sons turned that age in April. He has only a rough sense of right and wrong. He is literally helpless.

And you're going to tear a branch off a tree and take it to his bare ass? Really?
 

HomeRunBaker

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TomRicardo said:
I wonder how loud the F Bomb was when Goodell got the news
Goodell issued a statement:

"The league office will refrain from commenting in the Adrian Peterson indictment until we are able to view the video."
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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litigator02 said:
I got the belt plenty of times. I was not criminally mistreated. Like the charge suggests, he went too far, but that's an issue of degree...
 
It's not your fault.
 

dcmissle

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HomeRunBaker said:
Goodell issued a statement:

"The league office will refrain from commenting in the Adrian Peterson indictment until we are able to view the video."
Priceless
 

litigator02

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dcmissle said:
A 4-yr old? One of my sons turned that age in April. He has only a rough sense of right and wrong. He is literally helpless.

And you're going to tear a branch off a tree and take it to his bare ass? Really?
I'd respond, but I have it on good authority that literally no one cares about my opinions or the experiences that inform them. See you all around.
 

LeftyTG

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Texas is more normal than you think.
THANK YOU.
 
For what it's worth, I work as a lawyer prosecuting abuse and neglect cases for CPS.  I've done it in NYC and now Texas.
 
Yes, Texas allows corporal punishment.  So did New York.  Neither place lets you beat the crap out of your kids.
 
Regarding the photos, yes - those will catch you a finding (in my corner of the law) and certainly an indictment.  Those photos are also on the tamer side of what happens, believe me.
 

dcmissle

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And, by the way, you're going to take that switch to your 4- yr old's bare ass when, pound for pound, you might be the strongest guy in the NFL.

Really??
 

Chemistry Schmemistry

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My ex once asked me to spank our then four-year-old son. I couldn't do it. But discipline was necessary, and we found a way to get our message across without violence. I can't even imagine the leap to considering knocking my ex unconscious in an elevator. AP went too far, but I think this case is going to expose the difficulty of the NFL acting as moral police for a community of 2,500 professional athletes, many of whom are not that far removed from very difficult homes themselves. As I said, I don't envy Goodell right now.
 

fairlee76

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Fuck me.  I thought AP was one of the good guys in the NFL.  Then I saw the pictures.  Deeply disappointed, but no longer shocked by anything.
Really? Have you been in a cave the last six years?
 

Judge Mental13

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I'm not sure why a stick is a bigger deal than a belt or an open hand.  All three are perfectly capable of leaving marks.  I'm not saying I agree with Peterson's method of parenting and discipline here, what I'm saying is there is a major divide in this country on whether or not this type of parenting is acceptable.  There is no such divide when it comes to abusing your spouse.
 
Further, I do think he went overboard, and while I don't have kids I would imagine a 4 year old might be a too young to learn those types of lessons.  But the issue here isn't that he used a stick, it's that he left welts and cuts, which he could have done with a belt or with his bare hand.  Hence, I consider this a case of a dad spanking his child too hard.  He should be punished for it, but not in the same stratosphere as Rice. 
 
Again, one man's opinion. 
 

rodderick

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Judge Mental13 said:
I'm not sure why a stick is a bigger deal than a belt or an open hand.  All three are perfectly capable of leaving marks.  I'm not saying I agree with Peterson's method of parenting and discipline here, what I'm saying is there is a major divide in this country on whether or not this type of parenting is acceptable.  There is no such divide when it comes to abusing your spouse.
 
Further, I do think he went overboard, and while I don't have kids I would imagine a 4 year old might be a too young to learn those types of lessons.  But the issue here isn't that he used a stick, it's that he left welts and cuts, which he could have done with a belt or with his bare hand.  Hence, I consider this a case of a dad spanking his child too hard.  He should be punished for it, but not in the same stratosphere as Rice. 
 
Again, one man's opinion. 
 
Hitting a 4 year old with a stick indicates that you mean to really hurt him. There's no way to beat a kid on his bare skin with a fucking stick that won't leave marks or lacerations in his body. I'm against using violence to educate kids in general, but sure, I could see why a light spanking could be thought as acceptable to some. But if someone hits his son with his bare hands with intent to injure, it's just as bad. There's no need for a parent to physically harm a young child in that way. 
 
No one is necessarily equating this situation with Rice's, but I think it's a lot closer than you believe it to be. I'd wager the "major divide" in the country about whether this type of parenting is acceptable doesn't refer to beating a child until he bleeds. I'm pretty sure almost everybody is in sync on that issue.
 

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Judge Mental13 said:
I'm not sure why a stick is a bigger deal than a belt or an open hand.  All three are perfectly capable of leaving marks.  I'm not saying I agree with Peterson's method of parenting and discipline here, what I'm saying is there is a major divide in this country on whether or not this type of parenting is acceptable.  There is no such divide when it comes to abusing your spouse.
 
Further, I do think he went overboard, and while I don't have kids I would imagine a 4 year old might be a too young to learn those types of lessons.  But the issue here isn't that he used a stick, it's that he left welts and cuts, which he could have done with a belt or with his bare hand.  Hence, I consider this a case of a dad spanking his child too hard.  He should be punished for it, but not in the same stratosphere as Rice. 
 
Again, one man's opinion. 
 
A belt might be pretty bad, but an open hand isn't as likely to cause injury. A switch or cane is, that's the whole point of using it is that it is harder, and condenses the force on a smaller area. It's pretty difficult to repeatedly hit someone who is probably (average 4 year old) about 40 lbs with a stick and not expect to injure them.
Hell even in Singapore they don't usually allow judicial caning of criminals under 16 and the less severe canings of student are done through clothing and with padding to protect all areas other than the buttocks.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Judge, I'm with you to an extent.  I was spanked (well, slapped across the face) pretty regularly as a kid, and frankly, I look back and believe I deserved it, and in a lot of ways, needed it.  It was the only way my parents got through to me for a long while.  I have a 6 year old and an almost 4 year old now, and if someone had told me I'd have gone this long without spanking them, I would have laughed, but I haven't even come close to being angry enough, and they haven't done anything remotely close enough to deserve it, so all good on that front.  Surprisingly, I think my wife, who wasn't hit as a kid, has come closer to wanting to then I have.  I will say that as a parent of kids this age, 4 years old is just way too young to think you can teach them anything with this kind of discipline, and knowing you, I imagine you'll feel the exact same way when you have kids.
 
That said, there is a line between discipline/spanking and outright abuse, and the line is really not as fine as I think you are making it.  This isn't a case of a spanking gone too far.  This is systematic verbal, emotional and physical abuse.  And probably most importantly, psychological abuse.  A whooping room?  Having the kid get the weapon?  Putting the leaves in his mouth?  That's so far from a swift hand on the backside that was a little too hard as to not even be in the same zip code, and that's what I mean by it not being as fine a line as you are portraying.  He abused this kid, and by all accounts, appears to have done it before.  The line of going from this to serious bodily injury or death is a lot closer than the line for spanking, and that's what gets it to abuse, IMO.
 

dcmissle

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litigator02 said:
I'd respond, but I have it on good authority that literally no one cares about my opinions or the experiences that inform them. See you all around.
No, please proceed. I am not a fan of knee jerk liberalism that pretends to be tolerant, but isn't.

I got the belt too. And the cord to the electric coffee maker. And yard sticks broken over my hand in school when that was still permitted.

But I was not 4, or close to it, when any of these things happened.

I am really trying to comprehend the rationale for administering such punishment to someone so young, and in the vast majority of instances physically frail, who is utterly dependent on his parents in a world often frightening to him, and who often has only vague notions of right and wrong. Please explain.
 

ThePrideofShiner

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E5 Yaz said:
Things I Never Thought I'd Do, Dept.: So after reading that AP might have as many as 7 kids, I googled for the athletes with the most kids. Calvin Murphy is said to have 14 kids through 9 different women. Travis Henry ... Travis Henry! ... is said to have 11, with 10 different women.
 
Mind-boggling
 

Shawn Kemp has 15 kids per wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shawn_Kemp
 

patinorange

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Sure but these changes are gradual and generational. I think this could be the beginning of the end. See: boxing and horse racing.
A couple of weeks ago I would disagree strongly. But I am starting to wonder. I'm feeling weird about watching football lately.

A young guy with that many kids with multiple Moms? And a whuppin room? His Dad must have been a real prince.

It's very sad.
 

Leather

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Using a belt or an open hand is the lazy, cowardly, way of parenting.

Rather that get down to the root of a problem and dealing with it, you're saying "Do it because you should fear the fuck out of me".

There's no excuse for that shit, just like there's no excuse for hitting your misbehaving wife, or punching a guy that cuts you off at the stoplight.

Sorry it happened to you, tho. That must have sucked.
 

LeftyTG

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Judge Mental13 said:
I'm not sure why a stick is a bigger deal than a belt or an open hand.  All three are perfectly capable of leaving marks.  I'm not saying I agree with Peterson's method of parenting and discipline here, what I'm saying is there is a major divide in this country on whether or not this type of parenting is acceptable.  There is no such divide when it comes to abusing your spouse.
 
Further, I do think he went overboard, and while I don't have kids I would imagine a 4 year old might be a too young to learn those types of lessons.  But the issue here isn't that he used a stick, it's that he left welts and cuts, which he could have done with a belt or with his bare hand.  Hence, I consider this a case of a dad spanking his child too hard.  He should be punished for it, but not in the same stratosphere as Rice. 
 
Again, one man's opinion. 
I agree with this, good post.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Certainly not giving AP a pass here.....absolutely not and he clearly crossed the line. There is another side however that needs to be heard which as others have also said involves how Peterson was raised (like many of us who got our asses kicked as kids when we screwed up) and apparently never recognized that this isn't how our society punishes our children anymore.

Every story i've ever heard about AP aside from this incident has been positiive so i want to hear directly from AP on this. One only knows what one knows.
 

DJnVa

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DennyDoyle'sBoil said:
 
Right -- what the fuck could a 4 year old do to require corporal punishment ever?  I mean, if a 12 year old is playing with matches and nearly burns down the house and a parent decides that he needs to "teach the kid a lesson" to avoid the kid from burning the neighborhood down, I would say that parent needs some serious education about discipline and what works, but I wouldn't necessarily think the parent was a criminal for spanking in a corporal punishment state.  Just maybe not a particularly sophisticated person.
 
But a 4 year old?  
 
That said, clearly Texas permits parents to beat 4 year olds, and the charge of "negligent" child abuse seems to confirm that the grand jury decided Peterson only intended to beat the child, but accidentally went too far.  So, legally speaking, this is a "gone too far" case, apparently.  But, of course, that's only legally.  Certainly not morally.
 
One time was apparently for scratching the face of a 5 year old.
 
And dude, you hate Texas, we get it.
 
DC allows corporal punishment, Hawaii, Illinois, Maryland, Michigan, NJ, NY, Oregon are among the others. It's not some "deep red state" thing here.
 

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Judge Mental13 said:
I'm not sure why a stick is a bigger deal than a belt or an open hand.  All three are perfectly capable of leaving marks.  I'm not saying I agree with Peterson's method of parenting and discipline here, what I'm saying is there is a major divide in this country on whether or not this type of parenting is acceptable.  There is no such divide when it comes to abusing your spouse.
 
Further, I do think he went overboard, and while I don't have kids I would imagine a 4 year old might be a too young to learn those types of lessons.  But the issue here isn't that he used a stick, it's that he left welts and cuts, which he could have done with a belt or with his bare hand.  Hence, I consider this a case of a dad spanking his child too hard.  He should be punished for it, but not in the same stratosphere as Rice. 
 
Again, one man's opinion. 
 
 
Response in P&G, as that is the more appropriate forum. 
 

Judge Mental13

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rodderick said:
 
Hitting a 4 year old with a stick indicates that you mean to really hurt him.
 
I think if Peterson wanted to really hurt his 4 year old son the kid would be dead or crippled right now.  He wouldn't have welts on his legs.  
 
Deathofthebambino said:
That said, there is a line between discipline/spanking and outright abuse, and the line is really not as fine as I think you are making it.  This isn't a case of a spanking gone too far.  This is systematic verbal, emotional and physical abuse.  And probably most importantly, psychological abuse.  A whooping room?  Having the kid get the weapon?  Putting the leaves in his mouth?  That's so far from a swift hand on the backside that was a little too hard as to not even be in the same zip code, and that's what I mean by it not being as fine a line as you are portraying.  He abused this kid, and by all accounts, appears to have done it before.  The line of going from this to serious bodily injury or death is a lot closer than the line for spanking, and that's what gets it to abuse, IMO.
 
I'll be honest, the "leaves in the mouth" thing definitely sets off the "WTF" alarm a lot more than any of this other stuff.  The whooping room strikes me as more of a pyschological thing, ("You don't want to end up in the whooping room!") moreso than a room that Peterson routinely uses to beat his children. Having the kid pick out the stick didn't really jump out to me either.  
 
Again, there may be a LOT more that comes out from this, and if there is I absolutely reserve the right to change my mind, but right now I'm just not there I guess. 
 

E5 Yaz

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Judge Mental13 said:
 
I think if Peterson wanted to really hurt his 4 year old son the kid would be dead or crippled right now.  He wouldn't have welts on his legs.  
 
 
I'll be honest, the "leaves in the mouth" thing definitely sets off the "WTF" alarm a lot more than any of this other stuff.  The whooping room strikes me as more of a pyschological thing, ("You don't want to end up in the whooping room!") moreso than a room that Peterson routinely uses to beat his children. Having the kid pick out the stick didn't really jump out to me either.  
 
Again, there may be a LOT more that comes out from this, and if there is I absolutely reserve the right to change my mind, but right now I'm just not there I guess. 
 
For someone so judgmental, you sure equivocate a lot
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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DrewDawg said:
 
And dude, you hate Texas, we get it.
 
Jeez -- no, I don't.  I live in Arizona, FFS.  But I do understand why my posts have been read that way.  
 

MarcSullivaFan

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I think hitting kids to any extent is stupid and and a sign of mental weakness. It's more about the parent's insecurity than it is about teaching the child any meaningful lesson. But I also recognize that there are gradations in corporal punishment, and that a few spanks over the pants are unlikely to leave permanent psychological scars.

But that's not what we're taking about here. We're talking about beating a 4 year old with a switch on his naked bottom. If you think that's just old fashioned discipline, I suggest that you have a 220 pound man beat your ass with a switch and see what kind of shape you're in after 10 or 20 good licks.
 

OCST

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Judge Mental13 said:
Alright I'm gonna say it : 
 
Adrian Peterson might be an awful guy, and an awful father, I have no idea, but this doesn't prove it to me. 
 
I don't believe that Peterson gets off on randomly hitting children, I believe he thinks it is an important part of being a father, the threat of spanking, the consequences of bad behavior, etc.  While some on this board may not think it's ever OK to spank your child, I happen to disagree, and think that there is a serious divide in this country whether or not that's OK and to what extent.  I don't have kids, and I won't pretend to know what the best way to discipline them is, but I'm not going to sit in judgement of a guy who spanked his kid too hard once. 
 
That being said, Peterson, (as evidenced by those photos) went overboard, and deserves to be punished for it, but spanking a kid too hard and punching out your girlfriend/wife are miles apart in my eyes, he's not Ray Rice.
1. I don't want to be one of those people who says that you can't have an opinion because you don't have kids, but as father of a 4 year old, I can tell you that first hand experience is vital here. Kids that age are starting to understand rules, but don't have great impulse control, and don't have a full grasp of cause and effect. I don't hit my kid, but of course I have disciplined her, and I sometimes have found that she didn't understand why she was being punished, or what she did wrong. It takes a lot of patience to explain these things in a way that is understandable, useful and instructive to the kid. The only thing that a 4 year old would understand after being whipped with a switch is that they were "bad" - anything more granular would be lost on the poor kid.

2. The wrongdoing of AP and RR is "miles apart," but what AP did is MUCH worse. I do not mean to trivialize DV, and I understand how hard it is for a woman to put a stop to abuse, but an adult woman at least has agency (even if compromised by the abusive situation). She has access to the means to help herself, even if it's hard for her to do so for reasons explained here and at # WhyIStayed. A 4 year old does not. A child that age is helpless. Beating a 4 year old that hard is evil.

3. Although I discipline my daughter all the time, as necessary, I would break a pint glass into pieces and eat the shards before I would ever hit her .
 

DJnVa

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DennyDoyle'sBoil said:
 
Jeez -- no, I don't.  I live in Arizona, FFS.  But I do understand why my posts have been read that way.  
 
Understood, but perhaps you should refrain from post (paraphrasing) "Well, it *is* Texas" like it's the only state that have these laws.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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DrewDawg said:
 
Understood, but perhaps you should refrain from post (paraphrasing) "Well, it *is* Texas" like it's the only state that have these laws.
 
It's size envy.
 

Marciano490

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I'm lost. If beating a woman is wrong because of size/strength issues, why would beating a child be ok?
 

riboflav

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MarcSullivaFan said:
I think hitting kids to any extent is stupid and and a sign of mental weakness. It's more about the parent's insecurity than it is about teaching the child any meaningful lesson. But I also recognize that there are gradations in corporal punishment, and that a few spanks over the pants are unlikely to leave permanent psychological scars.

But that's not what we're taking about here. We're talking about beating a 4 year old with a switch on his naked bottom. If you think that's just old fashioned discipline, I suggest that you have a 220 pound man beat your ass with a switch and see what kind of shape you're in after 10 or 20 good licks.
 
By one of the two people he most admires, loves, respects, and trusts in the whole world. Get inside the mind of a four-year old. There is no way that kid can comprehend what occurred and process it. He simply lacks the necessary executive functions.
 

riboflav

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My larger point was the that I most often hear that it's ok for a man to beat his kid but not his wife because he claims he owns the child but not the wife (though of course many men think they own their wife as well).
 

leetinsley38

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Yeah, as a father of a 4 year old myself this story makes me sick to my stomach. All 4 year olds screw up, constantly. But they act impulsively and are barely learning to process right from wrong. Your first hazy understanding of "consequences" shouldn't be a ritualistic beating from your father that causes open wounds and welts for a week IMO. I got the wooden spoon and belt myself but that was at least age 7-8 when I deserved it.
 

dcmissle

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The Goodell career arc is interesting in this context.

He came in with guns blazing, believing that Tagliabue was a bit lax and estimating that player misconduct was the single biggest threat to League prosperity. He came down hard for a good period but eventually backed off in the face of some pretty serious opposition.

Since backing off, this problem has snowballed. I am not claiming a cause-and-effect relationship and tend to doubt that one exist.

But right now, given the sheer volume of serious cases. Is as bad as it has even been. AP is a big blow, and Commissioner is pretty badly wounded.

Now what?
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill
SoSH Member
Sep 9, 2008
42,278
AZ
riboflav said:
Spanking also goes against science and rational thought.
 
http://www.apa.org/monitor/2012/04/spanking.aspx
 
One of the divides in this thread may very well relate to whether or not the poster has spent much time with four-year olds.  
 
If you have only occasional interactions with them, the thing that might be most apparent is that they can misbehave.  But if you spend significant time with one, you know a few things.  They are pretty fragile, for one.  But more importantly, they don't even really fully understand the difference between make believe and reality.  This is kind of shocking the first time you realize it, and you can miss it if you aren't paying attention or if you're trying to relate to them like they are adults.  They also don't really have very sophisticated empathy or sympathy yet.  
 
I hope we all can agree that you should never hit a child if the child is unable to learn from you doing it.  For example, if a child had a mental disability that you absolutely knew prevented her from understanding why she was being hit and what she could do in the future to avoid the same thing happening, I think (hope?) we would all agree there is no justification whatsoever for hitting that child.  You're simply hurting a person that cannot fight back for literally no reason.  A four year old just isn't that different.  I suppose if you consistently hurt a four year old immediately after they did a particular thing, they would eventually associate that thing with being hurt and would develop a pavlovian aversion to that thing.  But if you're talking about trying to use corporal punishment along with reason to try to make a four year old make a different conscious choice in the future, it's a good bet you're literally doing nothing but hurting a child unless we're talking about something very very specific and repetitive.
 
Here's a thought experiment -- imagine this Peterson story were exactly the same but the child was a little 4-year old girl instead of a boy.  Would that change anyone's opinion?  Why?  For this purpose, there's no difference between a four year old boy or girl, except the girl is probably a little smaller.  
 

LeftyTG

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
1,345
Austin
riboflav said:
My larger point was the that I most often hear that it's ok for a man to beat his kid but not his wife because he claims he owns the child but not the wife (though of course many men think they own their wife as well).
show your work.  How often do you hear this?  Who are these people?  How do you know them?  You casually toss out this statement hiding behind that vague "I most often hear".
 
I call bs on that.  I've worked for a decade in the bowels of the CPS system, neck deep in neglect, abuse, and all around family dysfunction and I've only come across a handful of such types.  Lobbing fictional stereotypes isn't helpful to the discussion.
 

Marciano490

Urological Expert
SoSH Member
Nov 4, 2007
62,312
LeftyTG said:
show your work.  How often do you hear this?  Who are these people?  How do you know them?  You casually toss out this statement hiding behind that vague "I most often hear".
 
I call bs on that.  I've worked for a decade in the bowels of the CPS system, neck deep in neglect, abuse, and all around family dysfunction and I've only come across a handful of such types.  Lobbing fictional stereotypes isn't helpful to the discussion.
But, jokes aside, where's the disconnect? If my 140 pound girlfriend talks back and I slap her it's abuse, if my 40 pound kid does it, it's discipline?
 
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