A Shite State of Affairs: All Things Scottish Soccer 2015-16

The Talented Allen Ripley

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Figured I'd expand the yearly Celtic thread to include discussion of Scottish soccer in general, be it SPL, Rangers or the NT, which is doing OK in the Euro 2016 qualifiers so far (knock on wood). Maybe it will get a little more action that way. Plus I'd like to see a long post from fletch about Scottish soccer's long slide into irrelevancy. What happened from the '70s to now?
 

fletcherpost

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Let's start with Rangers. They had the second biggest wage bill in Scottish Football. This means some of their players got paid a living wage, others got over 1k per week. God knows what their highest earners were on, they didn't earn their crusts that's for sure. Rangers were woeful this year, but when they beat Hibs in the play off to see who faced the mighty Motherwell, i sort of hoped they'd win and get back into the SPL. And then i watched the games and Motherwell gubbed them at Ibrox and held them off at Fir Park and i was happy for Motherwell and glad Rangers failed so miserably.
 
Rangers would have added some glamour to the SPL, or rather there would be 4 old firm games assuming Rangers finished in the top six in time for the late season separation...a typically Scottish Mickey Mouse intervention. But it's not happning this year and so the second tier Scottish Teams can get a decent couple of paydays as the Gers take their fine upstanding travelling support on their annual unionist tour of Jockland's nether regions...although some night say the entire country is a nether region.
 
But...the Jambos got promoted and a good thing too, they are well run these days, got some fresh talent and they play decent fitba...they do, honest. This year I'm going to submit myself to potential punishment and watch more SPL matches...I'm going to try and watch each team at least once...maybe twice. What I hope to see is a decent Aberdeen side that can give Celtic a good match, same with Callie Thistle and I hope Hearts can contend too. By contend I mean stay within ten points for the first half of the season...a tall order.
 
What does Scottish fitba need? It needs what most leagues need, decent football and decent competition. Sport. And some quality. How do we get that? Money would help. Where does the money come from...fuctk-if-ah-know? But...if, and it's one of the bigger ifs in sport...if the SPL had a product worth selling, they'd get more money from TV rights...at the moment Lineker gets more for MOTD than Scotland gets from the BBC for it's fitba coverage. Shameful...our Shame no Luggit's. There's so little money coming into the game from TV and I'd back most 3rd tier English sides to have a bit of all Scottish sides outside of Celtic, who i think would maybe give Norwich a game. 
 
So TV isn't interested in out product until our product is of interest, so can the non Celtic clubs; their chairmen and women find the extra cash to get some quality on the park? Doesn't look like it? So we're left with player development within the club structure and youth development in the SFA's Performance Schools, which have been going for a few years now and at some point they'll be held accountable but as this link shows the investment was only £15M quid, or enough to by one Louis Suarez testicles. 
 
http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/scottish_football.cfm?page=2660
 
As part of the Scottish FA's £15m Performance Strategy, seven schools throughout the country have been selected to house the cream of Scotland’s talented young footballers.
There, they will marry their football education with their normal curriculum as part of the Scottish FA’s commitment to elite player development.
Seven coaches have been appointed to work in conjunction with the schools and the players’ clubs to enhance their technical skills at a key stage of their development.
Brian McLaughlin, the former Celtic winger and Ian Ross, the former St Mirren player, have both been assigned to schools. Gordon Craig, Greg Miller, Andrew Goldie, Iain Jenkins and Stuart Glennie bring a wealth of experience in youth coaching to complete the team.
Every year, each school will take up to 20 of the most talented under-12 players in their region – both boys and girls – and provide a minimum five extra coaching sessions focusing on skills development. Over a four-year period, this will provide the most talented young footballers throughout the country with an extra 800 sessions.
 
 
 
Last thing for now. The SFA is run by cunts. Has been for some time, just the names that change. They've hurt Scottish football and hurt Scotland. My dream...and it is a dream, is an SPL with a strong Hibs and Hearts, a strong Dundee UTD, a strong Eberdeen and the old firm doing what they do. Guid gemmes. I want to see young talent being developed in Scotland. But i want to see an emphasis on quality, (with respect to young talent). For too long I've been saying that we coach the skill out of our youth cos it aw aboot winnin man. When you're fifteen and you live in a pile of shit as many Scots do, especially those from the working class demographic that normally provides our footballers, a good ninety minutes of agressive shouting and swearing and kicking and screaming, with a possible victory at the end of it is time well spent, in the short term. In the long term we kill the talent.
 
I live in Scotland, east of Edinburgh, and this year my seven-year-old has gone along to a couple of training camps run by Hibernian at their training center in Ormiston. When the camps are done, each of the kids invariably gets two free tickets for the next (non-Hearts, non-Old Firm) match, so I went along with the boy to Easter Road see Hibs play two of the lesser Championship clubs - I think it was Alloa and Cowdenbeath. The standard of play wasn't great, but it wasn't utterly shocking, and unlike the SPL there was actually some drama going into 2014/15 about who would win the league and get promoted, which was nice. With Rangers still in the Championship, they and Hibs will likely tussle again to see who gets automatic promotion and who gets sucked into the convoluted promotion playoff system. So I've sort of adopted Hibs as my Scottish team.
 
As for the SPL, Celtic will win the league by miles and probably one of the Cups; nobody will do anything in Europe; and that'll be that. It's so depressing...back in 1995, on my only previous trip to Easter Road I saw Raith Rovers play Bayern Munich (with Klinsmann and Jean-Pierre Papin up front) in the UEFA Cup, but the days of small Scottish teams doing eff all in Europe seem to be long gone. Hibs notwithstanding, my only real interest in Scottish football is following whether the national team can qualify for another major tournament; I think they actually might, but it's going to be close. Otherwise, my eyes will firmly be fixed south of the border.
 

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ConigliarosPotential said:
Hibs notwithstanding, my only real interest in Scottish football is following whether the national team can qualify for another major tournament; I think they actually might, but it's going to be close. Otherwise, my eyes will firmly be fixed south of the border.
 
All hail the expansion of the Euros to 24 countries!
 

Spacemans Bong

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Which was Scotland's idea, IIRC.
 
In a way, it's been a good idea because it's made the qualifying process interesting as some of the smaller nations with real footballing heritage that have strugged in recent years have real chances to qualify. At the moment, you've got Wales, Northern Ireland, Iceland and Austria in automatic qualifying positions - I'd love to see them in the Euros. Scotland, Hungary and Norway are in playoff spots.
 
There's a much lower chance of a real big boy failing to qualify, but:
 
1) When did that ever happen in the 16 team tournament anyway, excepting England in 2008? (hint: that's the only time that happened)
2) Have you seen the Oranje?
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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Spacemans Bong said:
Which was Scotland's idea, IIRC.
 
In a way, it's been a good idea because it's made the qualifying process interesting as some of the smaller nations with real footballing heritage that have strugged in recent years have real chances to qualify. At the moment, you've got Wales, Northern Ireland, Iceland and Austria in automatic qualifying positions - I'd love to see them in the Euros. Scotland, Hungary and Norway are in playoff spots.
 
There's a much lower chance of a real big boy failing to qualify, but:
 
1) When did that ever happen in the 16 team tournament anyway, excepting England in 2008? (hint: that's the only time that happened)
2) Have you seen the Oranje?
 
The drawback is not so much that big boys automatically qualify (which, as you mention, has already been essentially true with the 16 team format) but that the group stage is going to lose a lot of drama now that 16 of 24 teams advance.  While big countries nearly automatically qualified for the Euros in the 16 team format, they certainly did not automatically advance to the knockouts.  Heck, in 2004 Spain, Germany, and Italy all fell in the group stage.  Under the new format, these countries are going to have virtually automatic entrance to the knockout round.
 

Spacemans Bong

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That's true, although Euro 2004 was a bit of a one off. Italy had five points and went out - in a way, it was more unfair to kick them out than keep them in. Spain had four and would have almost certainly qualified in a 24 team system. Germany only had two points and may well have gone out anyway in a 24 team system. France in 2008 and Holland in 2012 would have gone out in the group stage no matter what as well.
 
We definitely lose a little quality and ruthlessness in the group stages, but we do get more games and more diversity in the knockout stages: sort of like what I said before...if Scotland made the tournament and qualified for the stages, they'd go mental because they have never reached a knockout stage before. 
 
There's a fair bit of Home Nations bias in what I'm saying, but the qualifying process has been much more interesting this time around because all of the Home Nations, even Wales and Northern Ireland, have realistic shots to qualify (The Irish Republic and Scotland will, unfortunately, cancel each other out). If the isles hit snake eyes and four countries made the tournament, next summer would be off the hook. 
 
That would be worth a few dull group games (which would still be better than no games at all).
 
I don't think there was any lack of drama in the group stages of the World Cups in 1986, 1990 and 1994 just because 16 teams went through to the knockout stage. Even if the big guns are likely to qualify, the advantages of winning your group and possibly drawing a third-place team (or not finishing third and thereby avoiding a group winner - e.g. Holland in 1990) can be significant. Also, Bulgaria and Uruguay both reached the knockout stage with two draws and a loss in 1986, whereas you needed four points to advance in 1994, so there can be quite a bit of uncertainty about what you need to be sure of escaping your group. And fewer group games are likely to be meaningless or feature one team with nothing to play for on the final day, which I think is also a good thing.
 
Meanwhile, on a completely separate topic, Scottish clubs have begun taking about possibly converting from winter to summer fitba:
 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/33028189
 
Which could be interesting...playing meaningful matches in the summer and cup finals/title deciders in the autumn would be one way of getting out of England's shadow.
 

fletcherpost

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ConigliarosPotential said:
I live in Scotland, east of Edinburgh, and this year my seven-year-old has gone along to a couple of training camps run by Hibernian at their training center in Ormiston. When the camps are done, each of the kids invariably gets two free tickets for the next (non-Hearts, non-Old Firm) match, so I went along with the boy to Easter Road see Hibs play two of the lesser Championship clubs - I think it was Alloa and Cowdenbeath. The standard of play wasn't great, but it wasn't utterly shocking, and unlike the SPL there was actually some drama going into 2014/15 about who would win the league and get promoted, which was nice. With Rangers still in the Championship, they and Hibs will likely tussle again to see who gets automatic promotion and who gets sucked into the convoluted promotion playoff system. So I've sort of adopted Hibs as my Scottish team.
 
As for the SPL, Celtic will win the league by miles and probably one of the Cups; nobody will do anything in Europe; and that'll be that. It's so depressing...back in 1995, on my only previous trip to Easter Road I saw Raith Rovers play Bayern Munich (with Klinsmann and Jean-Pierre Papin up front) in the UEFA Cup, but the days of small Scottish teams doing eff all in Europe seem to be long gone. Hibs notwithstanding, my only real interest in Scottish football is following whether the national team can qualify for another major tournament; I think they actually might, but it's going to be close. Otherwise, my eyes will firmly be fixed south of the border.
 
 
So are you Scottish? It would be great to have someone else from Scotland to keep this thread going. I'm in Glasgow...just a few hundred yards from Ibrox.
 
I remember when the mighty Raith won the League Cup to get into the Uefa and they gave a good account of themselves versus Bayern...they were 0-1 up at half time and my mate's mum who's an artist got a comission to do a painting of the stadium with the half time scoreboard in prominence. But even then Rovers had some decent players and were well organised, then they sold Stevie Crawford and other players to second and maybe third tier sides and this has been the way of it for some time now.
 
When i grew up kids wanted to be Kenny Dalgish, or Souness or John Robertson or even Sally McCoist...now there's less if any elite players and less participation. Back in the day...and this is probably the same everywhere in the working class communities, most kids came home from School, knocked back some mince and tatties and went to the park or the street for a kickaboot. It was free entertainment. I grew up in a village but we could get a game going everynight, and there were three or four other parks in Burntisland with similar activity.
 
But playstations and xboxes are a lot to compete with. And even the widest eyed kid knows that the footie his dad's club plays is a million miles off what he sees on his computer or on TV. Wanting to be Dalgish got replaced by wanting to be Messi or Ronaldo, which is fine but I do think here has to be some quality on home shores to inspire the kids.
 
Nah, I'm American - came over to study at the University of St. Andrews for a year in 1995/96 and met my future wife there. My next-door neighbor in my dorm was a Raith supporter from Kirkcaldy and couldn't attend the Bayern Munich match for some reason, so he kindly gave me his ticket. ("Jimmy Nichol is a god," he once said to me. "A god.") Played a year of golf on the Old Course for a £90 season ticket, and went down to London over New Year's and attended four Premier League matches in four days...man, those were the days.
 
I do remember the return leg of the Raith-Bayern tie - if I remember correctly, Raith was the only British team that scored a goal that night in Europe, and they did so to take the lead in the Olympiastadion. Nothing even close to that will ever happen to Raith again, of course, but it must have been fun to dream for a while.
 

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What the?
 

 
 
Mike Wilkins, managing member of Kingsford Capital and art aficionado, found himself taken with the Maryhill club after a chance meeting with one of his favourite artists, the Turner Prize nominated and long-time Jags fan, David Shrigley. When the pair met several years ago at a dinner in San Francisco, the conversation quickly turned to the Maryhill side. After a bit of independent research, the Californian’s mind was made up to support Thistle and, much to the club's surprise, called Ian Maxwell directly to get the wheels in motion.
 
Since that initial conversation Shrigley has maintained his involvement and has designed a unique Kingsford logo which will adorn the front of Thistle’s shirts and be featured prominently around the stadium.  In addition, a new Shrigley-designed mascot, named Kingsley, will be in attendance on match days.
 
http://ptfc.co.uk/news/2015-2016/june_2015/kingsford_capital_management_to_be_jags_new_title_sponsor
 

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I'm not generally quick to praise Deadspin, but they ran the picture with the caption "HURRR I'm the Sun", which I think captures the overall impression about as well as you'd want to.
 

fletcherpost

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We were lookin at this earlier and we were pishing ourselves. It makes me want to go to a Jags match just to see or hear how the fans of either side treat the mascot. Aside from that reading the above article it's great that the Jags are getting more money in sponsorship and nice that it's acknowledged that they're more than just a club. I lived on Maryhill Road for years and i'm really fond of Jags fans, they're really nice people. I wish they had a nicer strip mind.
 

fletcherpost

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Well all you need to know about BBC Scotland's shite fuckin news service...this Thistle Mascot design made the fuckin news. Sooner we bring BBC Scotland down the fuckin better...fuckin cunts...seriously...sometimes i just want to go to war.
 

fletcherpost

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Double fuckin post...I'm fuckin beelin I just watched the Fall of Labour shiteshow that lead into the newstory being trailed about the fuckin thistle mascot...like we don't have any real fuckin news. BBC Scotland's days are numbered.
 
Edit: It's the fuckin little things
 

CodPiece XL

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The Allented Mr Ripley said:
Celtic are through to the 3rd qualifying round for the Champions League. The draw already occurred, they'll play Azerbaijani club Qarabag.
 
I've played on better pitches than that in primary school kickabouts.
 
I doubt a 2 goal lead will be enough against Qarabag. They need at least 3 at home, I'm assuming they are playing the first leg at home next week. They will be a much sterner test than a bunch of fishermen and teachers. Anyhow, I welcome the distraction of Celtic's season starting, I need anything to keep my mind of that clusterf--- of a Red Sox season...well at least until the Pats opener. 
 

CodPiece XL

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I'm glad to be proven wrong. Although at the time, I did not realize what a bad scoring record Qarabag had at home and was basing it on some decent results they had last year. I thought the game was on at 11.45 my time for some odd reason and when searching for a link found out the game was already over. Apparently it was a bit of a snoozer.
 
So...it sounds like they will face : Malmo, FC Astana, Patizan Belgrade , Maccabi Tel Aviv , or Skenderbuea Korce depending on the draw. They will have European at least until December no matter what. Although if they do drop into the Europa League I hate what it does as far as all the Sunday League games they will have to play. That really sucks for attendances and contribues to falling attendances which is another story. I keep meaning to write about all the wrongs for Scottish football...but can never give it the time it deserves. Anyway, re-ordered Soccer Plus for the Scottish League games last week. I hear Albania is nice in August....maybe wishful thinking...
 
edit: typo
 

fletcherpost

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I watched the second half in the pub last night and i thought Celtic ground out a pretty decent draw. It's early in the season but they seem to be solid, well organised, if not overly dynamic and expansive (probably asking too much at this stage). But they're gonna have a winnable tie and Glasgow needs Champion's League football, Scotland needs it. Does the seeded team get the home game as the second leg of the tie?
 
Cod Piece; i know what you mean, i have on my computer pages of semi written stuff on scottish football. You're right it does need time and effort to make it what it needs to be, worth reading, inciteful and so forth.
 
For me, the last TV deal was a joke.
 

soxfan121

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fletcherpost said:
Cod Piece; i know what you mean, i have on my computer pages of semi written stuff on scottish football. You're right it does need time and effort to make it what it needs to be, worth reading, inciteful and so forth.
 
Well, I for one, would like to publish that semi-written stuff. We've even retained Rip to be your personal editor.
 

The Talented Allen Ripley

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CodPiece XL said:
I keep meaning to write about all the wrongs for Scottish football...but can never give it the time it deserves. Anyway, re-ordered Soccer Plus for the Scottish League games last week. I hear Albania is nice in August....maybe wishful thinking...
 
edit: typo
 
 
fletcherpost said:
Cod Piece; i know what you mean, i have on my computer pages of semi written stuff on scottish football. You're right it does need time and effort to make it what it needs to be, worth reading, inciteful and so forth.
 
For me, the last TV deal was a joke.
 
I'd love to read both of your takes, it's why I made this a general Scottish soccer thread instead of a Celtic one. It's not that I'm a masochist or find any glee in shitting on the state of the sport in Scotland, I'm genuinely curious. There are so many interesting factors involved, but from over here it's hard to determine the hierarchy. The NT was never a global player, but at least they made tournaments. The clubs did much better and were always a European presence... until TV money became an issue, I suspect, and Scotland just doesn't have the eyeballs and wallets to keep up.
 
I know nothing about youth development in the country (historically or currently), so I'd especially like to hear about that.
 

CodPiece XL

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Where to begin?  I don’ t have time to write everything in one post and maybe I’ll write a post on each topic as time allows.
 
Broadly speaking, you have a perfect storm that can be categorized at the grass roots level,  TV saturation and bad TV rights contracts, structure of the Scottish league, The  Rangers conundrum and English Clubs south of the border spending money like water courtesy of over 5 Billion so that even an average player that a Scottish Club could attract previously  are so far out of orbit with their wage demands it’s become laughable .
 
 
The Generation Gap.
 
My personal Experience:
I’ll try not to sound too much like a Monty Python “ When I was a lad “ monologue. However, Fletch touched on this with his earlier post in the thread. To have a successful product you need kids participating and being coached at a young age. I’m in my mid forties, I grew up with football, loved the game played whenever I could. Back then, we were limited to two hours of highlight shows at the weekend. If you wanted your fix of  football you ran outside with your ball, ask a couple of mates to join in, took off a couple of sweaters and created your goal posts. Before you knew it, other kids had heard the shouts and screams of near misses, laughter of mishit shots and soon enough  you had almost a full squad game going on. We played until the dusk allowed ( I grew up in the Highlands so street lights were not really an option ),  junior football teams could not afford floodlights.  Each morning going to primary School, the hard core  of us would show up at least an hour before classes started so we could play a game.
 
Back then, we really didn’t have a second English  team, you may have taken an interest in Liverpool  ( plenty of Scots),  Man UTD ( Alex and a few Scots) but it wasn’t a big deal. It was really special to see a “live” game , it was huge event, you planned weeks in advance and looked forward to it.
 
One generation on,  times have changed. Video games and  football on TV almost every day. I’ll give you an example, one of my buddies who was my age and now has two teenage boys and lives in Inverness. He was just as crazy about football as me growing up so it was no surprise when he told me his kids play football.  What surprised me was that he said most kids don’t have the passion we did. I asked how so?  He explained that with all the TV coverage and ability to watch the EPL  ( more money can attract the world’s best players) , the Real Madrids and Barcelonas of the world etc, his kids would rather not go and train and participate in a junior league match if it clashed with Arsenal playing Man UTD that evening. He said that it was killing kids interest in playing the game. We would never call in sick, wild horses could not stop us playing.  
 
Here is the thing, when I first moved to the states seeing a  Scottish game live was unusual, you had to go to a Celtic bar in Southie or Brighton. Now, I can see Celtic or any EPL game every week for that matter by switching the TV on. Perhaps it’s age related or maybe I have become jaded with so much exposure. I can take it or leave it. Maybe that’s what is happening to the new generation of kids. I don’t know.
 
There is the trickle-down  effect. With so much football on TV, fewer and fewer games starting  at the traditional 3.00 PM on a Saturday, many of the traditions of the games are being lost like  actually ATTENDING games.  It’s harder and harder to travel to games with 12.45 kickoffs, Sunday games, or even in some cases Friday night games.  Part of the football culture and indoctrination of your kids was to get them excited about going to games. In addition, god help your team if you are playing in the Europa League….you will be stuck with Sunday League matches until December at the earliest. Simply put, I think there are too many games being played and too many being televised. If the younger fans get in the habit of watching games at home, or their dads watch it in the pub instead of actually attending. You’re losing the chance to meet your favorite player , get his autograph and get the kid excited about playing.
 
Don’t get me wrong, living on this side of the pond I do enjoy being able to watch as many games as I want. BUT, I would give that up if it meant less televised games and more 3.00 PM Saturday kicks offs back home. We are losing the match-going fan in the droves and that’s just sad.
 
But hang on…what about the actual product on the field and off it for that matter…ok…it’s much worse and you have to ask yourself why.  The quality of players has dropped because of poorer finances, ticket prices have been gradually increasing and pushing some fans to watching it a multitude of football games on  their TV sets courtesy of the English game on TV and SKY. . Vicious circle uh?
 
That leaves bad TV right contacts. It’s bad enough that we are losing the traditional match attending fans, it’s the fact they are being lost because of piss poor management at the corporate management level when Neil Doncaster and Stewart Regan  will hike up their skirts for 30 pieces of silver. They should have told Sky and BT where to stick their 15 million. They could not even get a sponsor for the League until this year. Begging for scraps…insert “ Braveheart “ quote here.
 
That’s all I have for now…I don’t claim to have the answers but I think these points contribute in some way to the plight of Scottish Football.
 
To be discussed: 
 
Contraction of teams, ( far too many teams for a population of 5 Million, look at Inverness Cale-Thistle and the story they became after joining forces) . 
 
Summer Football:  Most northern full time country  that plays football  throughout the winter- shite weather….but we have shite weather ALL THE TIME.
 
Rangers ( Sevco) : The sooner they get back…the better !!!! ( cringe….but possibly  true). More sponsors, better TV revenue.
 

fletcherpost

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I echo a lot of what you touch on CodPiece. To talk about Scottish football you have to really break it down, like you allude to.
 
http://www.raithrovers.net/prices
 
Season Ticket Prices All Stands Adult £250 Senior Citizen £125 Junior £30            
Gate Admission Prices All Stands Adult £18 Junior (Under 16) £9 Senior Citizen (Over 65) £9 Pre-School Concession (only available for non-ticketed matches)
Free Parent & Child (only available for non-ticketed matches) £21 College/Uni Concession (only available for non-ticketed matches)
£12 Jobseeker Concession (only available for non-ticketed matches)
£12 Disability & Carer Concession (Disabled person, Carer = FREE) £9
 
 
Austerity has hit Scotland hard. My local team, from childhood is Rath Rovers. I used to live and go to school two minutes from the ground in the Links.  Kirkcaldy used to have mines and manufacturing industry and a thriving high street. My dad was a taxi driver for over 25 years. In the 80's when times were tough under Thatcher, he still made good money, then every five years it got worse and worse. Not long after he retired, he told me a story about how he'd somtimes sit in his taxi waiting for a hire and look at his taking for the day, or the take that was his commission. Sometimes he'd work six hours of a 12 hour shift and have 20 quid for his troubles. he said he often wanted to burst out in tears.
 
When taxi drivers are struggling you know people have less disposable income. Same thing when Cinemas and pubs close. You walk along Kirkcaldy high street and all you see is empty units where once there were shops. Now you see loads of charity shops and pound shops - even MacDonalds who had a prime location on the corner where hepworths used to be closed down a few years ago. We used to have two tescos on the high street, now we got none.
 
You can see much the same thing all over Scotland. So the idea of stumping up even 12 quid if you're unemployed, or £18 quid if you're on a low wage, and low wages and unemployment are prevalent all over Scotland, well, for a lot of people it's an easy decision, cos by and large you're watching shite football, and as we all know, there's always a good game on TV or on your computer on a live stream.
 
Less kids are taking up the sport. Local teams, your Aberdeens, Dundees and Falkirks and so forth could gather the local talent and build a team from a pretty decent local nucleus. That's not true anymore. It's a numbers game. It's true CodPiece, kids have internet, play station, social media, sport on TV, and other pastimes and distractions that can be seen to be better uses of their time. True, we couldnae wait to get hame, jam some mince down our throats and get out ontae the field, the park, the street with a baw and find a game, get a game going. And we played until it got too dark or whoever it was whose baw it was went hame. I wonder if it makes a difference that there were some Scottish players worth pretending to be.
 
But, another thing...as time goes by we will always sell of common ground to private investors and parks go that way. In Burntisland my home town. We played on the Toll Park. The school team and BBs and Burntisland Utd and all the kids played on Toll Park and it's where we had the yearly civic week five a side tournie, one of my favourite weeks of the year growing up. They had three pitches, two full size and one half size. It was great. But when it became clear that Burntisland's Primary School was unfit for purpose and had to close, and a new school built. So they built on the toll park...and the land that the old school sits on will not be used for public or recreational activities. Not good. If we want more kids playing, we have to make it easier for them to play, not harder.  Now these are specific instances that prove nothing, and one would have to do a tour or gather information from every town and village and city, to find out how the access and availability of football pitches has changed/reduced over the years, but I see less kids playing football in parks.
 
I live near bellahouston Park in Glasgow, one one side of the hill by Pasley Road west you have five a side pitches, where you have to pay to play. They do good business. Round the other side, lots of flat space...plenty space for a kickabout, i never see anyone there. The growth in football participation has been amongst adults playing five a sides, that industry is booming in glasgow. But that's not gonna get us a decent national side.
 
Edit: Formatting for shite. And i don't think you can talk about Scottish Football without talking about Scotland, where it is and what it's going through.
 

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Big TV contracts across the border.
 
We have always played second fiddle to our neighbors in the English Top divisions so that is nothing new but what is indisputable is that the huge TV contracts with Sky or BT has increased the gulf to historic proportions.
 
Let’s put a few things in context.
 
Back in 2011 Premiership footballers earned on average £676, 000 a year, which is about £ 13, 000 a week.
 
In 2014, Premiership footballers earned on average £ 2.3 million a year  which is about $ 43,717 a week
 
With the new TV deal, one presumes that figure is going to increase substantially more. It’s 65% higher and that does not include the overseas rights.
 
In 2014,  Scottish Premiership players averaged £182, 789 which is £ 3,515 a week. Obviously a team like Celtic skews this figure. The average weekly  salary at Celtic was about $17,500 and Ross County as the lowest weekly average salary of £692
 
Now forget the Premiership for now, in 2014 the average salary in the English Championship was £ 486,033 about £9,347
 
So, you can see where this is going: the obvious financial advantages of playing south of the border ( even in the Championship) means these clubs can offer better salaries and  sign better players ( at least in theory) than any teams in Scotland. So what was traditional fishing grounds for Scottish teams have gradually become more and more  out of reach. Essentially, Scottish teams have now become paupers compared even to  the Championship teams . Scottish teams have also trawled European Leagues trying to unearth talent at reasonable prices. With the huge gulf in wages, why would any player want to go to a Scottish League team when they can get 3-5 times that amount playing for Bolton, Rotherham , Brentford  etc. This is compounded by the fact that teams like Burnley,  Hull and  QPR will receive £ 64 Million over 4 years ( 24 M first year , 19M second year etc)  as parachute payments for being relegated.
 
As I said, I don’t have the answers but it’s quite clear that Scottish football is in a far worse position from a competitive standpoint when English clubs can afford to pay huge salaries and transfer fees for any player they want not only domestically but around the world. Not only that, they can afford to take bigger gambles and sign younger players with the lure of more lucrative contracts and if the shit does not stick….it’s only money. Scottish teams don’t have that luxury. Going forward they have to find even the smallest advantages in terms of scouting and trying to spread their scouting networks further.
 
As I said in a previous post…this is only one of many issues facing Scottish football as a whole. Once we were able to attract half decent talent now the financial landscape has changed significantly. One thing to keep in mind though…there are far worse European Leagues as far as salaries….
 

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The case for Summer Football. Worth exploring?
 
Why not?  Nae way..it’s tradisshion FFS to play in winter.
 
 
True but I think this has to come under serious consideration.  Let’s face it, it seems pretty obvious. Scotland is wet, cold,  has long winters and pitches become quagmires, not exactly conducive to attractive football. It’s no secret that if you train in better conditions your skill level should improve. Postponements  build up meaning more midweek fixtures.  Sorry, but who wants to go out on a dark winters night with almost freezing temperatures. This is highlighted by dropping attendances.  For example, in one week in January 4 Premier League games were played. They attracted a crowd of about 13, 000..average around 3,300. You can’t tell me that if the same fixtures were played during the summer months you would not get more fans. You also have to take into account that travelling to stadiums is more dangerous due to a) dark  and b) adverse weather conditions so there are also safety considerations.
 
You won’t get games being called off 3-4 hours before kickoff due to a frozen pitch or snow on the pitch  ( I know,  get with the times, under soil heating) but some clubs can’t afford it. Some rain can be so torrential pitches become waterlogged
 
Christmas is traditionally a time for cash being low…affordability of attending games at that time of year.
 
If Scottish football was played over the summer months, it would,  at least for a couple of months,  not be competing with the Premiership. There may even be more lucrative TV rights available since it would be filling a potential void for football diehards. It would not clash with televised soccer games in the EPL .
 
With more European football competition and qualifying rounds starting earlier, Scottish teams would be more prepared and have a reasonable number of competitive games under their belt. Match fitness would be less of an issue.
 
Why not?
 
Scotland can have crap weather anytime….just as likely to get snow in April/October as you do in January. 
 
What about having to release players for European Championship and World Cup finals which are played in June /July. Fixtures clashing with international competitions on TV .
 
How long would there be a winter shut down? Clubs have to keep the lights on and pay wages over the winter months.
 
We go on holidays in the summer….we like to BBQ…go to the beach……not go to football games.
 
I’m sure there are more pros and cons that could be added.
 

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Excellent posts mate.
 
So it looks like Virgil Van Dijk will be leaving Celtic regardless of how Celtic fair v Malmo. The number being touted is £8m - and the league is the BPL. But I agree with Hartson, he's worth a good bit more than that.
 
If Everton cave in and sell Stones to Chelsea, I can see Virgil going to Everton.
 

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Great start. Leigh Griffiths slots one home with three minutes on the clock.
 
Bitton nod sit home from three yards from a corner. 2-0 after ten minutes.
 

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fletcherpost said:
Great start. Leigh Griffiths slots one home with three minutes on the clock.
 
Bitton nod sit home from three yards from a corner. 2-0 after ten minutes.
 
I cleared the decks for this so I could watch it at home ( 11. 45 am local time start). Good game, I love Armstrong marauding down the left. Finally the Malmo manager sees  that are getting overun in midfield...took him long enough. 2 goals up...Celtic becoming a little more conservative...get 3 and the tie is over. The dog evidently has missed me yelling at the TV ....it's great to have some excitement back for Celtic. Counting empty IPA bottles....on my sixth...good stuff. HT 2:0 ....clean sheet, one more goal.....
 
Fletch...I can't see VVD going for 8M...I would expect it to be around 11-12...certainly 10 minimum. Ooopsie...I love drinking in the middle of the day and watching Celtic in Europe. It's 104 F........heading out to the pool for a half time dip..............C"Mon the HOOPS!
 

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I thought Celtic were a bit loose in the last twenty or so minutes of the half. They were playing like they were 4-0 up against Motherwell. They Let Malmo back into the game, gasve the ball away too sloppily, when they should have tightened up, cos they'll get opprtunities to break and Celtic do have pace. But good to get in 2-0 up and get a much needed team talk.
 
One more goal and a clean sheet is the dream result. But a clean sheet will suffice. And as a type Malmo get a fuckin goal.
 

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Fuckin knew it. Celtic defenders giving the ball away needlessly and Malmo score off a corner, fuckin nonsense.
 
Europa League Hello.
 
it's great being Scottish. Fuckin idiots. No need for that at all. Ambrose and Izaguirre were shite second half.
 

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Wow.....sickening second goal to lose. Don't underestimate the loss of Lustig , he's probably out until after Christmas....not much of a replacement available...bombscare Ambrose or Mulgrew.  Malmo had their captain out, probably their best player.  Celtic let them off the hook.......Celtic will score away....but my God...they should have had this tie sewn up. Same time next Tuesday.........fuckinhell.
 

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I have no words. No vowells or consonants to describe how i feel anymore about Scottish Fitba and Celtic too. Ignominy; the experience of, might be a symptom of enlightenment, or a remnant, an echo of the eternal shame that bleeds from our bones and bypasses our brains but resides in our guts in our bowells. No rain of the fingertips to fall. No entrances to uncover the winter of our minds. After 85 minutes, one realizes there's no heart to break, did this dance when i was 22, half a lifetime ago. Pity is the bassest coin. Anent this muddy toilet bowl.  
 

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Didn't watch either qualifier, and not too bothered neither. Had a change of heart. Decided, it's time to look for positives. Not really with the state of the game as it is, on the field Internationally or at SPL level on a team by team basic but maybe to delve deeper into the game at grass roots, and on an individual level. We need some hope, and there must be some hope. Just look at Wales. A few decent players and one truly World Class player and all of a sudden they're in the running, and i bet we all are rooting for em.
 
I've been doing a local radio show for a couple of months now. We're not allowed to talk about Rangers or Celtic at all. Which is understandable but sad. But we've got a remit to engage with the community and sport is key, for health, and football does help forge community links.
 
So...credit to Rangers FC. A Glasgow foodbank ran out of food last week. It made the papers. Today at Ibrox Church, we had bags and bags of stuff dropped off, loads of food, loads of Rangers carrier bags, cos Rangers, like Celtic, Partick Thistle and many other football teams in Scotland organise food collections and their fans step up to the  plate. There's more important things than games of footie. But since this is a footie thread in a footie forum...i am gonna try and look for positives to write about. 
 
Oh...and Scotland can still make the play offs...
 

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Dummy Hoy said:
Does it say anything about Scotland that Celtic are an Irish team and Rangers are a British team?
 
What d'you think mate? But we're getting there. I focus a bit too much on the negatives, there's so much negative, but we'll get there. Scottishnes or a Scottish identity has been kept down for a long time. it takes a while to wake up completely; there's so much that needs to be undone, but we're getting there. We can talk about it away from here some time cos I know you'll understand and appreciatye it's a complex matter and how things are ona football field or stand isjust a broad stroke.
 
But suffice to say there's a lot of arses getting paid too much money to do us no favours. The SFA needs gutted out, has needed it for so long. So yeah, we're getting there mate. Don't get me started on Rangers and Celtic.
 

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Dummy Hoy said:
Does it say anything about Scotland that Celtic are an Irish team and Rangers are a British team?
 
Having grown up in Scotland,  I've never considered Rangers being a British team and Celtic an Irish team, they were both Scottish teams, at least to me. Granted, Rangers have a Unionist history and Celtic were started by Irish immigrants, however, both have played for well over 100 years in Glasgow, I just never saw it that way. Maybe it's because I did not grow up in the Glasgow fish bowl, maybe I'm in the minority. Interestingly, I know plenty of Rangers supporters who voted yes for independence. 
 

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fletcherpost said:
Didn't watch either qualifier, and not too bothered neither. Had a change of heart. Decided, it's time to look for positives. Not really with the state of the game as it is, on the field Internationally or at SPL level on a team by team basic but maybe to delve deeper into the game at grass roots, and on an individual level. We need some hope, and there must be some hope. Just look at Wales. A few decent players and one truly World Class player and all of a sudden they're in the running, and i bet we all are rooting for em.
 
I've been doing a local radio show for a couple of months now. We're not allowed to talk about Rangers or Celtic at all. Which is understandable but sad. But we've got a remit to engage with the community and sport is key, for health, and football does help forge community links.
 
So...credit to Rangers FC. A Glasgow foodbank ran out of food last week. It made the papers. Today at Ibrox Church, we had bags and bags of stuff dropped off, loads of food, loads of Rangers carrier bags, cos Rangers, like Celtic, Partick Thistle and many other football teams in Scotland organise food collections and their fans step up to the  plate. There's more important things than games of footie. But since this is a footie thread in a footie forum...i am gonna try and look for positives to write about. 
 
Oh...and Scotland can still make the play offs...
 
Wales does not surprise me that much...Iceland I can't get over. With a population of  1.5 times of Aberdeen...it boggles my mind.
 

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CodPiece XL said:
 
Having grown up in Scotland,  I've never considered Rangers being a British team and Celtic an Irish team, they were both Scottish teams, at least to me. Granted, Rangers have a Unionist history and Celtic were started by Irish immigrants, however, both have played for well over 100 years in Glasgow, I just never saw it that way. Maybe it's because I did not grow up in the Glasgow fish bowl, maybe I'm in the minority. Interestingly, I know plenty of Rangers supporters who voted yes for independence. 
 
I grew up in Fife and considered them both Scottish too, but now i livein Glasgow I see things a bit differently. Or rather i see different things. I live five minutes from two of the biggest Louden pubs, you know the Loudens ay mate? Strange music belts out of the Louden.  And we've all walked doon the Gallowgate Road to the Barras and beyond.
 
Of course loads of Gers fans voted Yes, and they have lots and lots of good fans. But that Dummy Hoy can even make such a long distance observation is telling. Did you know there are more Orange marches in Glasgow than Belfast. Odd that ay?  The songs that have the words, 'if you know your history' are sung for the most part by people with a very rudimentary knowledge of history.
 

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fletcherpost said:
 
I grew up in Fife and considered them both Scottish too, but now i livein Glasgow I see things a bit differently. Or rather i see different things. I live five minutes from two of the biggest Louden pubs, you know the Loudens ay mate? Strange music belts out of the Louden.  And we've all walked doon the Gallowgate Road to the Barras and beyond.
 
Of course loads of Gers fans voted Yes, and they have lots and lots of good fans. But that Dummy Hoy can even make such a long distance observation is telling. Did you know there are more Orange marches in Glasgow than Belfast. Odd that ay?  The songs that have the words, 'if you know your history' are sung for the most part by people with a very rudimentary knowledge of history.
 
I would have thought that such things are for the minority hard core and not really representative of the support as a whole. Personally, I look at such marches more of as oddity and as a source of amusement. But I'm the sort of person who can find amusement in anything. I can count the number of Rangers fans on one hand (I know plenty ) who go on Orange walks. Much in the same way I hardly know any Celtic fans who sing about the IRA. I think the press,  like most things create that perception and "stir" things up.
 
I don't blame anyone for thinking, at least at first glance, that Celtic have an Irish influence, especially with the number of Irish tricolors you see at Parkhead. However, 130 odd years of playing football in Glasgow,  at least to me, make Celtic Scottish above anything else. Although, I do have vague recollections of Celtic players being booed when playing for Scotland by Scottish "fans" ...that was in the 70's.
 

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CodPiece XL said:
 
I would have thought that such things are for the minority hard core and not really representative of the support as a whole. Personally, I look at such marches more of as oddity and as a source of amusement. But I'm the sort of person who can find amusement in anything. I can count the number of Rangers fans on one hand (I know plenty ) who go on Orange walks. Much in the same way I hardly know any Celtic fans who sing about the IRA. I think the press,  like most things create that perception and "stir" things up.
 
I don't blame anyone for thinking, at least at first glance, that Celtic have an Irish influence, especially with the number of Irish tricolors you see at Parkhead. However, 130 odd years of playing football in Glasgow,  at least to me, make Celtic Scottish above anything else. Although, I do have vague recollections of Celtic players being booed when playing for Scotland by Scottish "fans" ...that was in the 70's.
 
You live in the USA don't you? I guess I might find it amusing too if I lived in the US. Dunno if you remember the big Orange march in Edinburgh on the Saturday before the referendum or the shenanigans in George Square the night of...
 
I dunno who your  mates are, i suspect they're fine folk and I dunno how much you know about Glasgow or Scotland these days or what you mean when you say a minority, cos a minority of Rangers fans when taking the whole of Scotland is still a shit load of people who identify as British not Scottish. 
 
A lot of people leave Scotland, for a better life...I understand, i did it too, but something brought me back, there's a lot worth fighting for here. I know we're meant to talk about  about football, but sometimes i get a little peaved at the ex pats who watch from afar and get their knowledge second hand. No knock on you, you make very very good posts, i just need to say that. It's different here. As I said before I do a show on local radio here and we're not allowed to talk about Rangers or Celtic at all. Something not right with that, but that's how it is. Is it getting better? Yes. Is it still bad. Fuck yes.
 
I was at a meeting yesterday when the wife of an elected politician complained about the colour of McGills buses, 'they're Blue and Orange' she said with disgust. A lot of work still to be done mate.
 

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fletcherpost said:
 
You live in the USA don't you? I guess I might find it amusing too if I lived in the US. Dunno if you remember the big Orange march in Edinburgh on the Saturday before the referendum or the shenanigans in George Square the night of...
 
I dunno who your  mates are, i suspect they're fine folk and I dunno how much you know about Glasgow or Scotland these days or what you mean when you say a minority, cos a minority of Rangers fans when taking the whole of Scotland is still a shit load of people who identify as British not Scottish. 
 
A lot of people leave Scotland, for a better life...I understand, i did it too, but something brought me back, there's a lot worth fighting for here. I know we're meant to talk about  about football, but sometimes i get a little peaved at the ex pats who watch from afar and get their knowledge second hand. No knock on you, you make very very good posts, i just need to say that. It's different here. As I said before I do a show on local radio here and we're not allowed to talk about Rangers or Celtic at all. Something not right with that, but that's how it is. Is it getting better? Yes. Is it still bad. Fuck yes.
 
I was at a meeting yesterday when the wife of an elected politician complained about the colour of McGills buses, 'they're Blue and Orange' she said with disgust. A lot of work still to be done mate.
 
I lived in Scotland for 20 years, I saw plenty of Orange marches, more by chance and coincidence. I found it amusing then but was pissed off at the inconvenince they caused as far as traffic. The mates I was referring to still live over in Scotland. I know a few ex Pats here, maybe meet up once or twice a year. My legs and weight are not what they used to be so I don't play football that much with them anymore.
 
The only city I lived in was Aberdeen but as a student, I knew plenty of Rangers fans...it could be the demographics but I found the vast majority ok. I would go down to Glasgow for a weekend now and again. I have plenty of cousins, mostly Gers fans. I think I only knew 3 that went on Orange marches of all the Rangers fans I knew. I dunno, I never took the " You Fenian Cunt"  taunts seriously when going to an Old Firm game ...of course...little did they know I was good Wee Free Pres. Similarly, I don' t think many Rangers fans gave a shit about being called Orange bastards. No doubt there is inbred bigotry on both sides, I never saw much of it outside Old Firm matches which were cauldrons of hate. One example of what I read was a headline in a Scottish paper, " Rangers supporters singing sectarian chants arrested" , it was just a couple of them , blown way out of proportion. That's the crap I was referring to.
 
I'm sure things have changed and I am heading over to Scotland in the Spring....but if by second hand you mean watching reporting Scotland daily  then I am guilty. However, my observations were based on personal experience growing up there....well until I was 24. However, my big disclaimer is I was not brought up in Glasgow.
 
It's like religion and politics, don't talk about them in a bar. Same goes for Celtic and Rangers, too many nutjobs on both sides that will get offended...but like I said it's a minority. Hell, the press and TV are scared shitless to mention liquidation for fear of pissing off Rangers fans.