A 2016 thread

Buzzkill Pauley · Jun 13, 2015

With an eye toward 2016, the first thing I would do is hand Hanley a 1b mitt and start giving him reps now.

The Boomer · Jun 13, 2015

Buzzkill Pauley said:
With an eye toward 2016, the first thing I would do is hand Hanley a 1b mitt and start giving him reps now.

The Betts, Bradley and Castillo ground covering outfield needs an extended tryout this year, with little at stake, to find out for sure who are their keepers next year. Johnson needs his extended tryout in the rotation for the same reason. Owens might be part of a trade package to sweeten a veteran trade-off. Find another Miller for Rodrguez type deal please. Hope that the studs at Greenville plus Benintendi and a few prospects ahead of them arrive to help sooner rather than later. Declare next season an actual rebuilding year and don't try to solve every team problem through free agency. Display enormous patience with the bluechip youngsters already in the majors plus those soon to arrive. It will take the balance of this season and most or all of next season (recognizing the need for this extra rebuilding year) to distinguish between the newcomers who are stiffs rather than stars.

Toe Nash · Jun 13, 2015

I more or less agree that the future is bright. I would add that having Vazquez or Swihart for a full ST to work with the pitchers and not have to adjust the first week of the season should help the staff (how much, not sure, but some). I hope that Vazquez is watching a lot of film and studying how to pitch the hitters in the league while he's rehabbing (and maybe having some talks with Pedro and Varitek).

Some big concerns:
-Hanley's defense / Ortiz' bat. These are related. Hanley is bad at D and, perhaps more importantly, is more likely to hurt himself when he has to play out there. Ortiz has been talked to death but is a question. Even if Ortiz hits, he has to hit very well (significantly better than JBJ or whoever they would replace Hanley with in left) to make up for what Hanley is giving back in the outfield. Possible, but not an easy situation. I don't know why we would expect Hanley to be decent at first. He's a DH.
-Talent evaluation. I don't trust the team to identify solid replacements for first base or outfield. Nor do I expect the coaching staff to be able to help guys achieve their best. The Jays are getting a 144 OPS+ from Smoak and a 144 OPS+ from Colabello, both of whom they acquired for free. Encarnacion and Bautista were picked off the scrap heap, and while they paid a bunch for Martin he is raking so far. Apart from Holt and some part time play from Carp when was the last time we did that?
-Defense. We still have a pitching staff that allows a lot of balls in play. The defense has been average to good everywhere and should be next year as well, except Hanley and Panda are two of the worst defensive players in the majors. First base would also be a question depending on who we get to play there. If Hanley is mostly DHing and Sandoval gets back to average, they should be good, but those are big questions.
-Bullpen. I am less concerned with this as pens can be built throughout the year, but on the other hand, they haven't shown a whole lot of aptitude here either.

nattysez · Jun 13, 2015

I haven't seen optimism this misplaced since the season predictions thread.

Goals for offseason:

- Tell Ramirez that he'll be the starting 1B next year and give him all off-season to adjust.

Replace 1B with LF and this is EXACTLY what was done this past off-season. The ongoing wishcasting about Hanley being a competent defender is approaching embarrassing. And spare me the "well, 1B is easier than LF" line of argument. Hanley is a bad defender, and has been for some time. If you want to keep losing games, keep putting Hanley in the field.

- Tell Sandoval that he needs to lose weight and return to 2014-caliber fielding levels or else he'll be a platoon DH for the rest of his contract

Hanley has to be the DH, there is no one else to play 3b, and Sandoval spent the whole off-season complaining about the Giants disrespecting him by insisting that he lose weight. Other than that, good plan.

- Sign 2-3 mid- to high-level FA signings preferably on offense (OF, 3B, or 1B/DH)

This is EXACTLY what they did this past off-season. Why would you trust the current FO to do a good job with these signings? And in any event, according to this, there are zero competent third basemen available next year, and one guy -- Jason Hayward -- who is an above-average OF (Justin Upton's defense is bad). So the idea of fixing the offense through acquisitions is a fantasy.

- Add some more bullpen arms.

Again, the current FO has shown a distinct inability to build a bullpen. Yes, they need arms, but when the current FO adds arms, they're awful.

soxhop411 · Jun 13, 2015

nattysez said:
I haven't seen optimism this misplaced since the season predictions thread.

This is EXACTLY what they did this past off-season. Why would you trust the current FO to do a good job with these signings? And in any event, according to this, there are zero competent third basemen available next year, and one guy -- Jason Hayward -- who is an above-average OF (Justin Upton's defense is bad). So the idea of fixing the offense through acquisitions is a fantasy.

.

This is also exactly why the sox signed Pablo. This years and next years 3B FA class is non existent. And given we have no competent 3B near MLB ready......

IpswichSox · Jun 13, 2015

Ramirez was asked this week about the possibility of playing first base, and his reaction was like it had never even crossed his mind and wasn't happening. Not sure if that's respect for the incumbent first baseman or that he's just focused currently on left field. Or that he really hasn't even thought of it.

But how the outfield shakes out long-term is really interesting to me. Moving Ramirez to first or to permanent DH would solve the problem. Castillio would be in LF, JBJ in CF and Betts in RF. Absent that, one of those three has to get traded. I can't see using JBJ as a long-term fourth outfielder or a late-inning defensive replacement. His OBP is 407 and his OPS is 907, over 162 at-bats in AAA. (You HAVE to discount his MLB numbers this year because his plate appearances were sporadic, not sustained, and against some of the best pitching in the league.) He deserves a chance to play every day and put to bed the impression created last year.

If the season is lost, why not do this now? At DH, rotate Ortiz and Ramirez, who is clearly banged up and could benefit from the lessened load, and when Victorino is back use him exclusively has a fourth outfielder. (I agree that you can't just throw Hanley at first base in the middle of the season. That's not fair to him -- or the other infielders.)

if we're not there yet, we're rapidly approaching the point where we need to allow our long-term assets to get the playing time needed to properly evaluate them and the overall team, for 2016 and beyond.

Orel Miraculous · Jun 13, 2015

AB in DC said:
We interrupt this teeth-gnashing and hair-pulling about 2015 to bring you this dose of optimism...

I am genuinely excited about 2016. We have two elite players in the infield, lots of young, improving talent, and plenty of payroll being freed up from Napoli and Victorino's expiring contracts to add a few new pieces.

The offense, In order of optimism:
- Pedroia is elite and at 32 is primed to be the unquestioned leader of the team
- Bogaerts is already one of the top AL shortstops and is only getting better
- Betts is growing into a future star and is in position for a Bogaerts 2015 kind of leap
- Ramirez is still a slugger and will also be only 32
- Vazquez/Swihart should be an above-average combo at C
- Sandoval can still hit RHPs
- Castillo should be better adjusted to the MLB game
- free agent at Napoli salary level
- free agent at Victorino salary level

Backups look above average as well:
- Brock Holt is Brock Holt
- JBJ can win games on defense even if he's still a mediocre hitter
- Ortiz will be more accepting of a part-time role than he is now -- or he will retire and free up salary for another big $ signing

In the rotation:
- EdRo has shown all the signs of being a bonafide #1
- Buchholz has had a sub-3.00 FIP in two of the last three years and is still in his prime
- Porcello can't possibly be as bad as he's been this year..right?
- BJohnson/Owens may be ready for the majors
- Miley/Kelly/Wright are adequate back-end rotation guys if not

Goals for offseason:
- Tell Ramirez that he'll be the starting 1B next year and give him all off-season to adjust.
- Tell Sandoval that he needs to lose weight and return to 2014-caliber fielding levels or else he'll be a platoon DH for the rest of his contract
- Sign 2-3 mid- to high-level FA signings preferably on offense (OF, 3B, or 1B/DH)
- Add some more bullpen arms.

I really don't know what to make of this post. Every single thing bolded above is already applicable to 2015. How could you throw in the towel on 2015, and yet be "genuinely excited about 2016"based on a bunch of factors that are . . . already present in 2015?

E5 Yaz · Jun 13, 2015

Orel Miraculous said:
I really don't know what to make of this post. Every single thing bolded above is already applicable to 2015.

Sounds as though you did know what to make of that post.

nattysez · Jun 13, 2015

AB in DC said:
Because this is EXACTLY what they did before the 2013 season. And that worked out fine.

There is no one available in free agency with the resume of Napoli, Gomes and Victorino who is going to sign a short-term deal, so your plan is unrealistic. If this is all going to get fixed through FA signings, you need to identify some FAs who have the ability to fix everything.

I also think it's become clear that 2013 was an all-time outlier in terms of across-the-board high-level performances, incredible luck in terms of health, etc., etc., so pointing at 2013 and simply saying "do that again" doesn't seem realistic.

RedOctober3829 · Jun 13, 2015

Love the blind optmism from those in here, but I'm not giving this group that benefit. They haven't done anything to warrant belief in any decisions they've made since 2013. I'll always be grateful for 2013 but it looks like an outlier. They were fortunate that a lot of factors worked out in their favor. To expect such positive production from question marks every season is unsustainable. To be a successful organization the big ticket items have to work out and to this point none of them have in 2 years. Ben's rotation building blew up in his face too.

To have a successful 2016, does there need to be a gutting of the front office or is it a philosophy change with the same people in place?

Snodgrass'Muff · Jun 13, 2015

Rudy Pemberton said:
They also had a pretty strong foundation, though. They don't have anyone as good as Lester or even Lackey now. Pedroia is still good, but not as good as he was. Ortiz is nearing the end. There's no Ellsbury.

I'm bullish about Betts, Bogaerts, and Swihart too- but what if they are just average players? To be a really good team they need to start nailing free agent acquisitions and making a lot of good trades. This is obviously hard to do, but why should the 2016 team be any better than this one?

Pedroia's wRC+ is tied with 2011, the best of his career and his defense does not appear to have slipped at all. If anything, he's currently better than he was going into 2013. As for Lester, he came into 2013 off a pretty rough 2012 and didn't really turn it on until around half way through the 2013 season. In fact, there were plenty on this board who thought that the Sox needed to trade for an ace for the playoffs because Lester wasn't it. Eduardo Rodriguez looks great early on. The league will adjust and he'll have to adjust back, but he's got great stuff and looks like he has plenty of poise on the mound. Lackey's 2013 season was very solid, but in every meaningful way, Clay is having a better season than that right now. I fail to see how they don't have potential analogs already in place.

Ortiz is in the twilight of his career, as they say, so no argument there, but no Ellsbury? Ellsbury came into 2013 looking like extremely damaged goods after his 2012 shoulder injury (at least as compared to 2011) and there is no reason to think that Castillo and Betts can't put up similar numbers at the plate (298/355/426). They got a career year out of Victorino and 73 combined stolen bases between him and Ellsbury, so there will be areas where Castillo and Betts probably come up short (including the defense) but it's entirely possible there won't be a huge gap in overall value.

In short, you entire list is crap with the exception of Ortiz, and even that's debatable as they have Hanley Ramirez on the roster and that means if he retires they are more looking to replace the Gomes/Nava platoon they had in left than Papi's bat. I think the World Series title is clouding your memory about what the Sox looked like in April of 2013.

RedOctober3829 · Jun 13, 2015

You win some and you lose some? How many more last place finishes will it take for some to think that there's a problem with how this team is run?

Red(s)HawksFan · Jun 13, 2015

RedOctober3829 said:
You win some and you lose some? How many more last place finishes will it take for some to think that there's a problem with how this team is run?

I'd say more than they've had thus far. This season isn't over, so let's not go counting it as a last place finish just yet, as bad as it has been so far.

2012 they finished last thanks to a hapless manager, some key injuries (Ellsbury and Ortiz), and completely blowing up the team in August (Punto trade) and going into tank mode.

2013 they reloaded and won the World Series.

2014 they finished last after some injuries (Victorino) and underperformance (Bogaerts, Bradley) led them to blow up the rotation and go into tank mode in the second half.

2015 they reloaded and thus far nothing is clicking. Lone bright spots have been Bogaerts, Pedroia, Buchholz (other than a couple ugly starts), and Rodriguez. There's reason for some optimism with the young players. There's reason to expect some improvement out of some of the veterans...maybe Ortiz is cooked at 40, maybe Napoli is cooked at 34, but it's hard to buy the idea that Sandoval or Ramirez are cooked, or that Porcello and Miley are permanently trending downward before reaching their 30th birthdays.

There are building blocks in place. The future isn't an impending disaster barring wholesale changes.

Erik Hanson's Hook · Jun 13, 2015

edit: sky-is-falling-type BS

Snodgrass'Muff · Jun 13, 2015

Rudy Pemberton said:
Some folks believe in everything Ben and the organization do and that there is some secret sauce behind it, some can be skeptical.

Skepticism is fine. This team is not in good shape right now and I think they dug a deep enough hole that there is almost no chance they can make a serious run at the playoffs. But try putting even five seconds of thought into what you are posting. You threw out a bunch of names of players who played well in 2013 without so much as considering the context around those 2013 seasons or what the roster has in place currently that could approximate that production.

So yes. Your list is crap.

Erik Hanson's Hook · Jun 13, 2015

AB in DC, you're all right by me. Wish I shared your optimism.

Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat · Jun 13, 2015

Erik Hanson's Hook said:
Sorry for the sky is falling post. I regret it.

I also understand the value of trying to add some positivity to this current season of suck. Apologies for the thread pollution.

AB in DC, you're all right by me. Wish I shared your optimism.

You have the ability to delete it if you really regret posting it.

EDIT--well done

Buzzkill Pauley · Jun 13, 2015

AB in DC said:
But you're crazy if you think that young players like Betts and Castillo won't be significantly better with another year of experience. That would go against everything we know about developing young talent. Again, just look at Bogaerts 2014 vs Bogaerts 2015 as an example; there are others.

This theme needs to be retired asap. Castillo is not young, just inexperienced at the MLB level. He is one year younger than Sandoval, three years older than JBJ, and five years older than Mookie. Castillo is at his physical peak right now.

What makes it possible to dream on Mookie, Swihart, and X is their combination of youth and inexperience. As their game skills get better, so is their physical maturation.

Signing Rusney was always a gamble that his considerable tools would immediately translate to production at the MLB level.

keninten · Jun 13, 2015

I need to be straightened out on something. Why can`t Hanley move to 3rd and Panda to 1st? Did Hanley bulk up too much? Seems an easier transition for Hanley.

Yelling At Clouds · Jun 13, 2015

keninten said:
I need to be straightened out on something. Why can`t Hanley move to 3rd and Panda to 1st? Did Hanley bulk up too much? Seems an easier transition for Hanley.

Because Peak Panda is a pretty good hitter for a 3B, but not really what you'd be looking for in a 1B.

The Boomer · Jun 13, 2015

Rudy Pemberton said:
They also had a pretty strong foundation, though. They don't have anyone as good as Lester or even Lackey now. Pedroia is still good, but not as good as he was. Ortiz is nearing the end. There's no Ellsbury.

I'm bullish about Betts, Bogaerts, and Swihart too- but what if they are just average players? To be a really good team they need to start nailing free agent acquisitions and making a lot of good trades. This is obviously hard to do, but why should the 2016 team be any better than this one?

This is where, instead of the impatience of the fans and front office last season, tolerant forgiveness for the rest of this and all of next year, with respect to their still unproven youngsters, must be their organizational philosophy. Average isn't as bad as you make it sound but it's too early to say who will be studs or stiffs either. Their prospect inventory is well stocked, but the only way to find out which of the 3 categories they fit into will be to give them every chance to play and prove it. If any will be studs (Eduardo Rodriguez appears to be the first), you make every effort to sign them through arbitration and early free agency.

Crawford, A Gonz and now maybe one or both of Sandoval and Ramirez should teach them not to overspend for mercenaries (though Han Ram finally circled home and will probably fill a need at 1B going forward). Their 2013 success resulted, in part, from filling lineup gaps with free agents who were no more than marginally signed for too much for too long. Victorino was worth it his first year for sure but not for the last two. This is still better than needing to unload their expensive mistakes with lots of years left on their contracts.

Benintendi is a one man wrecking crew in his first college WS game so far this year (it's still ongoing). He made a diving catch to prevent a sure run plus 2 out of 3 runs driven in on a SF and slugged a no doubt HR within the cavernous dimensions of Omaha. The other really good hitter in this game, Thaiss of UVA, was a HS draft choice by the Sox who opted for college. He will be a top choice (probably first round) next year. This is relevant to the topic because, if Benintendi is for real, he might be rise to the majors on his helium like the previous fast rising stars who he seems most like, Yaz and Lynn. Thaiss (who I've seen a lot) will make the majors too. Trusting in their development of talent and having the patience to wait for it to mature are surer ways to improve. It costs a lot less, even if only 1 out of 4 of every prospect promoted to the majors is a keeper than to have maybe only 1 out of 4 big ticket free agents, (maybe Han Ram) from among Crawford, A Gonz, Sandoval and him, possibly earn their pay. A team of almost all "average" but cost controlled players provides a better foundation for success than a bunch of overpaid disappointments.

LostinNJ · Jun 13, 2015

The next great Red Sox team will not have Uehara, Ortiz, Victorino, or Napoli. It will have Hanley at DH. So you need to come up with a closer, outfielder (or two) and first baseman. Maybe the outfield can be completed with Castillo and JBJ; maybe the closer will come out of nowhere, as closers sometimes do. First base looks like a free agent.

One obstacle to the team's success for the next few years is Sandoval, who is not a complete hitter or (apparently) an adequate fielder. But they may have to ride with him to the end of his contract and hope Devers is ready, and able to stick at third.

Yelling At Clouds · Jun 13, 2015

Among position players, the most obvious problem this team is facing for 2016 no matter how the rest of this year goes is 1B. People here are assuming Hanley will just be able to do it, but we really have no idea if he's willing to do so or able to do so at an acceptable level. And so if not Hanley, then who?

Allen Craig? Probably will have spent most of a year facing AAA pitching - and he is, to borrow a favorite phrase of naysayers around here, not exactly lighting the world on fire. He'll turn 31 in a few weeks, and he would have been a candidate for an ugly decline even if he hadn't had a disastrous 2014.

Sandoval? Well, like I said earlier, assuming he returns to his SF form (and I actually think he will), he still doesn't hit as well as a classic 1B should, and he's unlikely to defend well enough to make up for it. And that also opens up a hole elsewhere on the diamond (are we sure Hanley would be an acceptable option after a year away?)

Travis Shaw? Check his 2015 numbers at AAA. Other internal options seem a long way away.

Free agency? Not a great list - Justin Morneau, Edwin Encarnacion, Chris Davis, Adam Lind... any of those options seem appealing?

Trades? We don't know who'll be out there, obviously, but I'm having difficulty envisioning any of the actual good 1Bs going anywhere. Goldschmidt, Freeman, Belt, Rizzo - none of them are going anywhere. Logan Morrison, maybe? I actually think their best option might be trying to get Joey Votto out of Cincinnati, but I have a feeling that few here will agree with me.

Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat · Jun 13, 2015

Danny_Darwin said:
Free agency? Not a great list - Justin Morneau, Edwin Encarnacion, Chris Davis, Adam Lind... any of those options seem appealing?

What's wrong with Edwin Encarncion?

Yelling At Clouds · Jun 13, 2015

Bob Montgomery's Helmet Hat said:
What's wrong with Edwin Encarncion?

I actually shouldn't have included him in the first place since the Jays have an option on him.

patinorange · Jun 13, 2015

keninten said:
I need to be straightened out on something. Why can`t Hanley move to 3rd and Panda to 1st? Did Hanley bulk up too much? Seems an easier transition for Hanley.

Hasn't Hanley pretty much nixed going back to the infield? I'm sure they could make him but it doesn't sound like a viable plan. He's a DH or a shitty outfielder.

ivanvamp · Jun 13, 2015

AB in DC said:
No reason 2013 is any more of an outlier than 2015. You win some, you lose some.

Let's see….

2012: .426 win%, 69 wins, last place
2013: .599 win%, 97 wins, first place, WS champs
2014: .438 win%, 71 wins, last place
2015: .435 win%, 70 win pace, last place

One of these things is not like the others.

nattysez · Jun 13, 2015

AB in DC said:
You win some, you lose some.

If you are a top-flight organization in the top-5 in team salary, you don't "win some and lose some," and you certainly don't finish last two out of three (and possibly three out of four) seasons. "You win some and lose some" is OK for the Billy Beane A's who are trying to win on a shoestring. It's a ridiculous attitude for a team like the Red Sox.

Edit - And I'm not saying you have to be an entitled MFY fan who considers the season a bust if they don't win the WS. But you've got to at least be competitive year to year, and this is year 3 of 4 where that's not the case.

p.s. The resume of Jonny Gomes? A platoon OF who had played over 120 games exactly once before in his career and broke .800 OPS in only three years out of ten? It would have to be a historicaly bad FA year not to have someone of that caliber available.

Find him. There are plenty of FA lists out there. Find the free agent OF who is going to fix this mess and is not going to demand a king's ransom.

ivanvamp · Jun 13, 2015

The core of the next great Sox' team will be, in no particular order:

2b Pedroia
SS Bogaerts
C Swihart/Vazquez
OF Betts
OF Castillo
DH Hanley
SP Rodriguez
SP Porcello (he'll still be here and doing better)
3b Sandoval

That's 7/9 of the lineup, and 2/5 of the starting rotation. Moncada will be on the cusp, if not already present, on this next great Sox team. Which I project to be in 2017 or 2018. I wish it was sooner, but I don't think it will be.

moondog80 · Jun 13, 2015

AB in DC said:
- Vazquez/Swihart should be an above-average combo at C

Based on what? Their combined 300 PA of OPS+ around 70?

AB in DC said:
- JBJ can win games on defense even if he's still a mediocre hitter

You say that like mediocre is his downside. I'll be thrilled if he's mediocre.

O Captain! My Captain! · Jun 13, 2015

Hanley 3b, Sandoval 1b is a terrible idea. Hanley was a butcher at SS and 3b before he bulked up, and Sandoval (defensive issues this year notwithstanding) is an averageish 3b. The 3b position in both free agency and in the organization is a graveyard, which is likely why Sandoval was signed. Hanley's either in LF, 1b, or DH.

Anyone comparing this year's team to 2013 has to remember what a monster that team was. Victorino had a HBP fueled All-Star caliber year on both sides of the ball. Daniel Nava was a fantastic platoon hitter, and Mike Carp was an excellent pinch hitter. Stephen Drew had a 110 OPS+ as a good defensive shortstop, Napoli had a really good year at 1b (again on both sides of the ball). Salty had a 120 OPS+ as a catcher, and they got good (albeit sporadic) backup performance from David Ross. The strength of that team wasn't in its core of star players (Ortiz, Ellsbury, Pedroia, Lester), but that all of the role players had breakout performances, leading to incredible depth, a relentless lineup, and strong pitching all the way through the rotation. That sort of performance will be very difficult to replicate.

benhogan · Jun 13, 2015

ivanvamp said:
The core of the next great Sox' team will be, in no particular order:

2b Pedroia
SS Bogaerts
C Swihart
OF Betts
OF Castillo
DH Hanley

3b Sandoval

We've seen that line up, and its awful...sure it could get better or it could continue to suck. Coin toss IMO

This team doesn't need to complete overhaul, but some tweaks. If you have a weak spot in the line up, go with a platoon (Nava/Gomes '13 style) or a young kid. Free agent signings hasn't been this front offices strong suit.

Unload Panda as soon as he gets hot, this dude is a disaster in the field, on the bases and against LHP. The extra pounds are a major problem and will only get worse. He's sensitive about his weight and the Boston fan base/media is about ready to take off the kid gloves and let him have it. The suggestion of putting him at 1st Base is mind numbingly dumb. Taking his bad defense across the diamond won't help since his range sucks, plus his OPS would rank him close to last for Major League 1st Basemen. Replace him at 3rd with a platoon of Holt + RH bat. Yep I think Brock can handle a platoon at 3rd.

Unload Miley and his Hillbilly attitude, replace him with Wright or Brian Johnson.

So long Vic and Nap, thanks for 2013.

Use young arms to fill out the bullpen.

Spend zero money on any new shiny toys (Free Agents) this off-season and call 2016 what it is, Big Papi's Farewell Tour.

Take expectations down a bit, and maybe they'll surprise to the upside. They'll have a ton of payroll flexibility and can maneuver during the course of the 2016 season to address needs if in contention.

MikeM · Jun 14, 2015

Neither Panda or Hanley are getting traded in or immediately after year one of their mega deals. Panda won't be getting moved off third base anytime soon either. Barring his own decision to hang it up, Ortiz most definitely will be around in 2016 for his farewell tour as well (minus any full time'ish platoon). Regardless how frustrating some of those aspects may appear in the moment, that all is pretty much set in stone as far as 2016 goes imo.

My projection on our approach to 2016 hasn't changed much since March. If we have yet another disappointing year, i ultimately just can't see Henry and co taking the passive road this winter. One Cinderella season out of 6 won't be deemed "acceptable" enough, value assessment philosophies will shift some, and they'll be left making every attempt in fielding a team with a confident chance at making a playoff run in 2016.

For better or for worse, i'm expecting to see a lot of money get thrown around this winter. Not sure that ends in the type of ideal/dreamy roster construction we've all been projecting for going on a decade now, but with a little luck and progression out of the young pieces already being put in place...i can't see why a turn around to at least Yankee-lite type contenders wouldn't be doable.

ivanvamp · Jun 14, 2015

benhogan said:
We've seen that line up, and its awful...sure it could get better or it could continue to suck. Coin toss IMO

This team doesn't need to complete overhaul, but some tweaks. If you have a weak spot in the line up, go with a platoon (Nava/Gomes '13 style) or a young kid. Free agent signings hasn't been this front offices strong suit.

Unload Panda as soon as he gets hot, this dude is a disaster in the field, on the bases and against LHP. The extra pounds are a major problem and will only get worse. He's sensitive about his weight and the Boston fan base/media is about ready to take off the kid gloves and let him have it. The suggestion of putting him at 1st Base is mind numbingly dumb. Taking his bad defense across the diamond won't help since his range sucks, plus his OPS would rank him close to last for Major League 1st Basemen. Replace him at 3rd with a platoon of Holt + RH bat. Yep I think Brock can handle a platoon at 3rd.

Unload Miley and his Hillbilly attitude, replace him with Wright or Brian Johnson.

So long Vic and Nap, thanks for 2013.

Use young arms to fill out the bullpen.

Spend zero money on any new shiny toys (Free Agents) this off-season and call 2016 what it is, Big Papi's Farewell Tour.

Take expectations down a bit, and maybe they'll surprise to the upside. They'll have a ton of payroll flexibility and can maneuver during the course of the 2016 season to address needs if in contention.

We've seen that lineup in 2015, which includes Betts in his first full year in the majors, Castillo in his first season of pro ball in a few years, and Swihart, who shouldn't even be here yet but is because of all the injuries. Bogaerts is in just his second full season in the majors.

Red(s)HawksFan · Jun 14, 2015

ivanvamp said:
Let's see….

2012: .426 win%, 69 wins, last place
2013: .599 win%, 97 wins, first place, WS champs
2014: .438 win%, 71 wins, last place
2015: .435 win%, 70 win pace, last place

One of these things is not like the others.

One of those things is not as complete as the others, either.

I know they look like shit now and everyone's losing their minds over it, but the season isn't even half over yet. While the post-season seems pretty well out of the picture, a recovery to finish somewhere around .500 wouldn't take some sort of miraculous turnaround (54-45 to get to 81-81). All it would take would be a bit more luck, good health and some guys performing closer to their career norms. Unlike in 2012 or 2014, there isn't likely to be a roster depleting firesale in July/August that turns the team into a glorified AAA squad. They're not dumping 80% of their rotation or their #4 hitter this time around (as much as some seem to want them to).

Bottom line, no matter how ugly it's been thus far, it's still too early to write the season off as another 70 win last place effort.

tims4wins · Jun 14, 2015

Red(s)HawksFan said:
One of those things is not as complete as the others, either.

I know they look like shit now and everyone's losing their minds over it, but the season isn't even half over yet. While the post-season seems pretty well out of the picture, a recovery to finish somewhere around .500 wouldn't take some sort of miraculous turnaround (54-45 to get to 81-81). All it would take would be a bit more luck, good health and some guys performing closer to their career norms. Unlike in 2012 or 2014, there isn't likely to be a roster depleting firesale in July/August that turns the team into a glorified AAA squad. They're not dumping 80% of their rotation or their #4 hitter this time around (as much as some seem to want them to).

Bottom line, no matter how ugly it's been thus far, it's still too early to write the season off as another 70 win last place effort.

But on the flip side, the 2012 and 2014 teams had horrible records due to the summer fire sales. Both teams were fairly competitive into July. That the 2015 is on pace to have as bad a record is a poor reflection on the 2015 team.

irinmike · Jun 14, 2015

The way "these people are running the team" Think that needs to be qualified a bit and a bit more specific. Some of the names and faces have changed, but THESE people who run the team have brought the fans THREE world series titles in 11 years. Sure the current management team has made some glaring mistakes. But in essence most of the moves recently were fine with the majority of those who continue to bitch on here now.

BestGameEvah · Jun 14, 2015

Here is the article where Hanley says he's not going back to the infield.

http://fullcount.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/2015/06/10/hanley-ramirez-has-no-intention-of-ever-returning-to-infield/

Al Zarilla · Jun 14, 2015

BestGameEvah said:
Here is the article where Hanley says he's not going back to the infield.

http://fullcount.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/2015/06/10/hanley-ramirez-has-no-intention-of-ever-returning-to-infield/

“It feels a long time ago,” he said of his time as an infielder. “But after those three outs working in the infield, you’€™re kind of like, ‘€˜Wow!’€™ You remember what it’€™s like. But now I consider myself an outfielder.”

I wonder if he knows he's probably one of the worst fielding outfielders since the end of the dead ball era.

O Captain! My Captain! · Jun 14, 2015

BestGameEvah said:
Here is the article where Hanley says he's not going back to the infield.

http://fullcount.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/2015/06/10/hanley-ramirez-has-no-intention-of-ever-returning-to-infield/

“I’m just an employee here so I just want to win. It’s just like where I hit in the lineup. Wherever they think I should be to win, that’s what I’m here for."

Hanley's giving some conflicting messages here.

barbed wire Bob · Jun 14, 2015

O Captain! My Captain! said:
“I’m just an employee here so I just want to win. It’s just like where I hit in the lineup. Wherever they think I should be to win, that’s what I’m here for."

Hanley's giving some conflicting messages here.

Crash Davis: It's time to work on your interviews.
Ebby Calvin LaLoosh: My interviews? What do I gotta do?
Crash Davis: You're gonna have to learn your clichés. You're gonna have to study them, you're gonna have to know them. They're your friends. Write this down: "We gotta play it one day at a time."
Ebby Calvin LaLoosh: Got to play... it's pretty boring.
Crash Davis: 'Course it's boring, that's the point. Write it down.

ivanvamp · Jun 14, 2015

Red(s)HawksFan said:
One of those things is not as complete as the others, either.

I know they look like shit now and everyone's losing their minds over it, but the season isn't even half over yet. While the post-season seems pretty well out of the picture, a recovery to finish somewhere around .500 wouldn't take some sort of miraculous turnaround (54-45 to get to 81-81). All it would take would be a bit more luck, good health and some guys performing closer to their career norms. Unlike in 2012 or 2014, there isn't likely to be a roster depleting firesale in July/August that turns the team into a glorified AAA squad. They're not dumping 80% of their rotation or their #4 hitter this time around (as much as some seem to want them to).

Bottom line, no matter how ugly it's been thus far, it's still too early to write the season off as another 70 win last place effort.

The point is, there's bo reason to think of 2015 as some outlier. It seems far more likely that 2013 is the outlier.

Red(s)HawksFan · Jun 14, 2015

ivanvamp said:
The point is, there's bo reason to think of 2015 as some outlier. It seems far more likely that 2013 is the outlier.

No one's really arguing that 2015 is an outlier. My only point is that it's way too early to count it with 2012 and 2014 as a disaster season. It may look like its headed that way, but there's more season left to be played than has been played already. Playing the last 99 games along the lines of pre-season expectations could elevate the season to mediocre at least. And have the ship moving in the right direction heading into 2016 as well.

The 2013 Royals were 9 games under .500 on June 4 (23-32). They finished the season at 86-76. All I'm suggesting is this team could still finish the year in the 80-83 win range and take some positive momentum into the off-season.

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