I posted this article in the playoff gamethread but it says PHI is the only team in the last 25 years to blow back-to-back leads of 18+ in the playoffs.
76ers: 2020-2021 thread
- Thread starter terrynever
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I think if it were just this game (or even the past 2), people would look at the players primarily. However, Doc's record of huge playoff collapses in high-leverage moments is getting really bad at this point.
I’m still remembering the Brett Brown Era. Doc pulled these players together into a fighting unit. Which makes these last two games so baffling to me. Second-half collapses are usually linked to fatigue, or lack of energy. Embiid was in good shape all season but the torn meniscus seems to take its toll later in games. Atlanta is younger and has way more energy in the second half.
I still think Philly can win this series. But the players, Doc and his coaching staff have to dig real deep.
Philly should let Atlanta go up 28-3 in game 6 and they'll have them right where they want them.
I shut that game off last night thinking it was over and couldn't believe my eyes this morning see that they blew that huge lead.
What a gag job.
I shut that game off last night thinking it was over and couldn't believe my eyes this morning see that they blew that huge lead.
What a gag job.
The main takeaway from that tweet is that he apparently thinks that Rondo is a hall of famer. Which is hilarious.
I don’t think it’s crazy to suggest that Rondo might make the Hall of Fame. The bar is much lower in basketball. Basketball-Reference has him at a 60% chance, 16th highest amongst current players, right between Kevin Love and Klay Thompson.
Resume includes 4 All-Star games, an All-NBA selection, 4x All-Defense, 3x assist leader and 1x steal leader. He also has two championships. That’s better than many already in the Hall.
Yeah it wouldn't be a surprise at all. He has some longevity and reputation chips and can earn more of both over the next couple of years. Hoop HOF has guys worse than Rondo already.
Yup, all true.
I still struggle with lasting images of him dogging it in a Cs jersey towards the end of his career, but even I have to admit he’s likely done enough given the HoFs other choices.
Rajon Rondo is/was a very good basketball player with moments of floor generalship that bordered on genius. But in the end, just a very good professional basketball player. If he ends up in the Hall, then one has to discount the value of election to the Basketball Hall of Fame.
A CJ type player would be perfect, but if the Sixers were to actually flip Simmons for CJ, who turns 30 before the start of next season and is most known for never making an all star team...yeesh.
My gut is that Rondo came at least a couple decades too late and as such is a Hall of Very Good player. Never really more than the 3rd best player on good/great teams. Obviously a super unique player who would be an absolute legend if he played in the 70s and 80s.
This is inherently false. He staggered Tobias by getting him his rest in final 4:30 of the 3Q and brought him back to start the 4Q. Embiid and Curry came out with 1:30 left in 3Q and were at the scorers table for nearly a minute until the next 4Q dead ball w 10:00 to go. Simmons came out for final possession of 3Q and returned with Embiid and Curry. I mean if anything Doc would surely would have liked to get them more rest but couldn’t. Not sure how that could be your takeaway from Doc’s substitution pattern.
Doc is essentially being blamed for Simmons missing FT’s (he has been correctly removing him in 4Q) and Embiid playing on one leg. I mean, I’m sure the coach has some share in the results of his best players but it isn’t like he’s not putting them in position to succeed. The bench was atrocious.....what were his options?
He didn't need to improve in order to be worth his contract. There is no chance he is a negative asset. You would still find plenty of teams who would give up value for him. He may not be a top 25 player, but he is pretty damn close to that.
Doc always plays at least one starter, usually Harris, with the second unit. So when I spoke of the second unit, I did so with that presumption in mind. Simmons sometimes adds in to the second unit as well. The second unit is basically what we Philly fans call the team on the floor when Embiid is resting. Shake Milton wasn’t even in the bench rotation until he went off in Game 2. Sorry my take on this stuff disappoints you.
Simmons and Russillo did their top 40 NBA players on a podcast last week and both had Simmons right around 25, iirc. That still sounds about right. His recent performance is concerning and it has been magnified because it’s happening in the playoffs, but he’s still a magnificent all talent, especially because he’s elite on the defensive end.
It doesn’t disappoint it simply is way off base. Embiid sat the final couple possessions of the 3Q and the first two of the 4Q before walking to the scorers table. It’s confusing to read that he left them out there too long when it was about as short a rope as one could have.
I don't know if either team does this, but Simmons for Jamal Murray might work for both sides
The question with Simmons is... how much does being borderline unplayable in clutch situations in the playoffs matter to you.
Simmons has a lot of value, BUT if you;re a contender can you really pay a guy $35M if you may well have to bench him for key stretches of the game throughout the playoffs?
Simmons has a lot of value, BUT if you;re a contender can you really pay a guy $35M if you may well have to bench him for key stretches of the game throughout the playoffs?
Um... DEN has an elite passing center and desperately needs scorers, so this is the opposite of what they need.
POR makes sense because they can play Simmons at the 5.
This is why I threw out SA. Simmons needs to go to a team that is more concerned about just making the playoffs. He needs to be part of a rebuild from the ground up, IMO.
I said approaching negative asset. He is the same (or slightly worse) since his rookie season and getting more expensive.
I'm sure some teams at this point would still take him and give up SOMETHING for the right to pay him, but it's not nearly the slam dunk it used to be. And I certainly don't think it would be a huge haul.
At age 21/22 he was a no doubt future max guy you want to build your team around, because you would assume at the very least some moderate improvement through his mid to late 20s.
Simmons has had a very curious flatline career (unlike Porzingis, you can't point to major injuries for Simmons) that has taken his trajectory way down. Is there any chance this version of Simmons can be one of the top 2 players on a championship team? Is there some reason to think Simmons will be much better than this in a few years? I'm not sure the answer is yes to either of those questions, and 40M is a lot of money to pay to find out.
Any team acquiring him would have to hope that this is a temporary hiccup. Over the last two years he's at .617 from the line (regular season), which should be playable. If his FT% going forward in the playoffs is around 50% (or worse), it's just a disaster.
A lot of his career is a flat line because he came into the NBA at such a high level it would be hard to improve. On the flipside, there were a few areas he was so bad in it would be impossible not to improve... and he pulled off the impossible.
Another PG comparison, Lonzo came into the NBA a pretty well rounded player with poor shot selection and arguable range/accuracy. He's basically the same player he was coming into the league minus 1 area. That 1 area could possibly get him a max deal (I don't see it, but others are predicting it). He's also a vastly better player because of it.
He’s only unplayable with this specific roster though. The problem they have is that he’s the primary ball handler and their offensive go-to is another post player. If he was paired with another offensive weapon, and could effectively be a point Center his FT issues would be less of a problem.
Hard for me not to figure Simmons will be on the Lakers next year for Kuzma+KCP+filler because that's just how the NBA works. And that may even work better for the Sixers than keeping him.
Since we're discussing Simmons trade options, one possibility that comes to mind is a Simmons-for-Beal swap (maybe with Washington throwing in a protected first or something). That isn't too far off from the Harden-for-Simmons rumors from last year. Obviously, the Sixers would be taking a massive risk that Beal just leaves after one year, but a Beal-Embiid combo would be so intriguing that they might be willing to take that gamble with the hope that the Sixers go far in the playoffs next year and Beal is convinced to sign long-term. And from Washington's perspective, if they think it likely that Beal will leave in a year anyway, they'd be getting a still very good player under contract for more years.
I have sincere doubts that Simmons-as-5 ever becomes anything more than message board speculation.
This is why, gun to my head GOAT, and I can't pick Russel, Shaq, WIlt. I can't have them take the big shot because you just have to hack them. Then you are left with, a tie game situation, where if you don't have them out there and miss the other team does not call time out your all planet shot blocker is on the bench when you most need a stop. Simmons is a defender that can really hurt your offence.
Are we overreacting to one post-season of FT shooting when he has shot 65% (passable for sure) in the prior postseasons? It is frustrating to see a kid with so much potential struggle with a mental aspect of the game and this could become a permanent Nick Anderson career-altering yip......but if it isn’t you still have a Top-25 or so player with many years ahead of him. Just wondering if people here are writing him off too soon.
I think he's unplayable in certain spots this year, but he's still not a great play in those same key spots when shooting career average from the line if he's really not going to play on the perimeter not at the
5.
I look to a guy like young Rondo. He couldn't/didn't shoot and the Celtics had to put Eddie House in for him often in key spots because a player the defense can just ignore entirely outside 5 feet is a huge detriment to a crunch time offense. And honestly, even 65% FT shooting is more in the "they probably won't hack him" zone than the "this player brings positive value when trying to score" category. To me, the question is... can you pay $35M to a guy who can't/won't even be a threat to score in crunch time when you need to score. If you're down 8 late in a game... do you want Simmons on the floor?
Probably, but at a certain point if he doesn't improve what do you do with a PG who the defense can play 10 feet off and just build a wall in crunch time. He needs to be a 4 or 5 if he doesn't create space. You could play him as a Tatum-like 4 if your 5 was a stretch 5.
Edit- I also think we need to look at trends. Simmons shot 57% last post season after 70% the year before. regular season he went 56/60/62/61. So it's really more accurate to say he's somewhere around a 60% FT shooter likely. That's right near the border where you feel comfortable fouling a guy (high 50s).
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He's probably the least plug and play of all the top 25 players. If you take Simmons and put him on Denver, Miami or Indiana... meh. Where as Jaylen Brown would pretty much fit right in on any team in the league.
It depends on what you value in a top 25 player. If you want a guy who is going to raise your floor and help you win some regular season games against the Orlandos of the world, then Simmons fits that definition. He can take over games in those situations. If you want a guy who is going to consistently deliver when you're playing the highest levels of basketball, you're probably looking elsewhere. They're very different players, but I feel like his net impact is similar to Derozan at his peak. Both really good players that are liabilities when it matters most.
If you were to poll Philly fans "Which player would you rather lose to an injury in the playoffs: Seth Curry or Ben Simmons?" I'm pretty sure the answer is overwhelmingly Simmons. That's not the mark of a guy who I'd want to hitch my wagon to if my goal is to win a ring.
My take on him is the game has swung so far towards shooting that a guy who in almost any other time is one of the best players, gets maligned, etc. I mean he is like a bigger more athletic Magic, in many ways. When at times a giy that can do everything he can do is considered less than a player who is really only a good shooter, the pendulum has swung too far one way.
We're, sadly, seeing this with Giannis, too. If one of your key "guys" - someone who has to be on the floor in the last minutes of the game because he's a top 1 or 2 player on your squad - can't shoot, it's probably the worst liability you can have as a team competing in the playoffs. No amount of defense or rebounding or passing makes up for it.
It's a topic for a totally different thread but I very much agree the game has swung too far in favor of three-point shooting (which is not surprising given that it doesn't take a rocket scientist to deduce that a team that can hit a lot of three-pointers will score more than a team that can hit a lot of two-pointers but not as many three-pointers). The league should consider moving back the three-point line and/or eliminating the "corner three."
I like the idea of widening the court and just pulling the corner three to the same distance as above the break threes. I don't think it would result in drastically changing the game and still add a degree of challenge to the shot.
I just can't believe that outside of Embiid and Curry, no other 76ers made a field goal in the second half last night.
I agree in theory, but this is the problem with historical comps for Simmons - he doesn't have any. Magic kind of works in that he's a huge point guard who could play any position and wasn't a good shooter, but Magic shot nearly 85% from the FT line for his career. He even led the league once, in 1989. He made more three pointers in his rookie year (7) than Simmons has in his entire career (5). From an outside shooting perspective, they just aren't similar beyond a glance. Simmons' issues exacerbated by him playing in (what I hope) is the peak of the 3 point era, but at any point in recent history (at least over the last 40 years), his complete inability to even attempt to score outside the paint would be a major problem in the playoffs.
Yeah the other problem with cross generational comps is that Magic didn't take 3s most of his career because nobody did. His last 3 years pre-HIV he was one of the most prolific 3pt shooters in volume.. 20th, 5th, 10th in attempts, and shot pretty well... 41st, 18th, 28th in percentage. So you're talking close to say... Gallinari? (Gallo had one top 5% year, and one lower volume year, but usually he's in the late teens to late 20s in percentage, and 10-20 range for attempts.
Yea sorry @terrynever... I think you prepared yourself for this.
I want to hear the Ben Simmons trade ideas. I've already thrown out CJ McCollum for Simmons
A ton. Sixers need talent now with the Embiid clock ticking. Maybe a 3 team deal where Simmons goes to OKC, Beal goes to PHI, and the picks go to WAS to start a rebuild.
Honestly Doc should go as well.
he is riding of memories of his time as coach in Boston
View: https://twitter.com/MikePradaNBA/status/1406806841275916290
View: https://twitter.com/DerekBodnerNBA/status/1406808413003259908?s=20
View: https://twitter.com/ESPNStatsInfo/status/1406808359420968961
Tough tough loss. If Atlanta somehow gets past Milwaukee, I think that Sixers fans will look back on this season like Pats fans look back on 2006. It was right there.
Embiid must be sick. What a performance.
Simmons for Smart, Tristan and one of Pritchard/Nesmith (assume they would demand a shooter as part of package).
Edit: Lol @ Doc getting fired.