76ers 2019-2020

lovegtm

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Covington/Josh Richardson bit is somewhat unfair - he turned Covington into Jimmy Butler, but that situation went sideways much the same way as Kyrie, and then he salvaged it by getting Richardson. I get we grade things by results mostly, but the process there was fine. Butler was a good basketball fit, and they came within a legendary Kawhi shot of taking down the eventually champs.

Horford is a hard-to-trade deal, but what was he going to do with that cap space? It couldn't be rolled over due to the Simmons extension anyway. What's the opportunity cost there?

And I'm not sure how low they really sold on Fultz. What do you think Orlando could get for Fultz now? A high 2nd rounder? I think a team would be nuts to trade a 1st for him, so that's roughly the return Philly got anyway.

The one move I think was a mistake at the time was Tobias Harris. The rest looks like competently executed moves and making the best of a bit of a mess of a roster. It looks like it may not work out, but I'm not seeing the obvious alternatives. I'd grade his tenure at a B so far.
That’s fair re Butler/Richardson. For Fultz, you’re probably right.

Harris was an asset overpay at the time, and looks worse now.

Re Horford: if the reasoning for a signing is “the space is going away anyway”, the last thing you do is tie it up in a heavily depreciating asset. Even Reddick, while also old, would have been a shorter team deal that doubles as a matching salary. Horford’s salary can’t be used to upgrade in that slot, because he’s such an albatross. Which isn’t shocking for a 34 yo who had already started to have issues staying fresh/healthy with the Celtics.
 

lovegtm

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I feel flashbacks to trying to think everything was ok when Mook was chewing out Jaylen and Kyrie was yelling at Gordon for giving the ball to Tatum.

In the NBA, these kind of clips nearly always indicate massive underlying chemistry issues; they don’t happen in a vacuum.
 

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Embiid was actually hustling last night and taking the ball hard to the hoop. He ran down a breakaway and blocked the shot from behind. And then he was sidelined at halftime by a stiff neck.
The clip above just proves one thing: the 76ers do too much dribbling. Harris, Richardson and sometimes Simmons. Their offense becomes stagnant as the shot clock winds down. I can see Embiid being frustrated and also question why he is 20 feet from the hoop. But that’s the offense scheme designed by Brett Brown.
 

lovegtm

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Embiid was actually hustling last night and taking the ball hard to the hoop. He ran down a breakaway and blocked the shot from behind. And then he was sidelined at halftime by a stiff neck.
The clip above just proves one thing: the 76ers do too much dribbling. Harris, Richardson and sometimes Simmons. Their offense becomes stagnant as the shot clock winds down. I can see Embiid being frustrated and also question why he is 20 feet from the hoop. But that’s the offense scheme designed by Brett Brown.
Yes, and Kyrie Irving just wanted to politely let Gordon Hayward know whom to pass the ball to next time.
 

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Yes, and Kyrie Irving just wanted to politely let Gordon Hayward know whom to pass the ball to next time.
I would not compare Kyrie to Embiid in any way. Two completely different personalities. As a team-buster, Irving is in a league of his own, and Celtics fans know that better than anyone. Kyrie is deceitful. Joel is just a typical modern player who wants to pad his stats and play in the All-Star game, without doing the necessary work.
 

lovegtm

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I would not compare Kyrie to Embiid in any way. Two completely different personalities. As a team-buster, Irving is in a league of his own, and Celtics fans know that better than anyone. Kyrie is deceitful. Joel is just a typical modern player who wants to pad his stats and play in the All-Star game, without doing the necessary work.
I like and respect Embiid, and it well may not be his fault. I was rhetorically using 2018-19 Cs comps to colorfully make the point that, in the NBA, smoke usually indicates fire.
 

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I like and respect Embiid, and it well may not be his fault. I was rhetorically using 2018-19 Cs comps to colorfully make the point that, in the NBA, smoke usually indicates fire.
Yes, the fire is starting to spit out a few embers. It will be a bonfire after this season ends.
I try to look for signs of unhappiness between key players. But it seems the opposite. These guys seem to like each other. After one nice play by Embiid last night, he and Simmons slapped hands on the way back up court. By all accounts, they get along. But I think each of them would not be devastated by a trade in the offseason that frees them of each other. Ben wants to run all night. Joel wants more room to operate, which Ben complicates with his unusual game.
 

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I don't think Al is simply too new to the team; I think he's just not a leader type. If he were, he would have put a stop to the Kyrie disfunction last year as the de facto veteran on the team. Instead, I think he chose flight over fight.
What actions would you have wanted Horford to take that would have fixed last years roster construction disaster? I can’t think of anything significant with all those free agent years and guards/wings who need the ball in their hands.
 

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I don't think Al is simply too new to the team; I think he's just not a leader type. If he were, he would have put a stop to the Kyrie disfunction last year as the de facto veteran on the team. Instead, I think he chose flight over fight.
LeBron couldn't even put a stop to Kyrie dysfunction. Expecting anyone to get Kyrie in line is probably too much to ask.
 

lovegtm

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Yes, the fire is starting to spit out a few embers. It will be a bonfire after this season ends.
I try to look for signs of unhappiness between key players. But it seems the opposite. These guys seem to like each other. After one nice play by Embiid last night, he and Simmons slapped hands on the way back up court. By all accounts, they get along. But I think each of them would not be devastated by a trade in the offseason that frees them of each other. Ben wants to run all night. Joel wants more room to operate, which Ben complicates with his unusual game.
Re them liking each other: the optimistic case for the Sixers is that last year's Celtics team did have talent, and probably could have given the Bucks a real series if Kyrie hadn't already mentally booked his ticket to Brooklyn. So there is the chance to flip the switch. They have to make sure Brown doesn't lose the team before that happens though.
 

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Re them liking each other: the optimistic case for the Sixers is that last year's Celtics team did have talent, and probably could have given the Bucks a real series if Kyrie hadn't already mentally booked his ticket to Brooklyn. So there is the chance to flip the switch. They have to make sure Brown doesn't lose the team before that happens though.
Two years ago, Philly won like 20 of 21 to end the regular season. They did well in the playoffs last year. But this is a different team than last year. There is no Jimmy Butler to kick ass. No leadership. Elton Brand would not admit in yesterday’s presser whether Brown will last the season. If the players want him out, a few of them will start tanking. This franchise knows how to tank. Ben and Joel were weaned in a tanking environment, and it still shows up in places.
 

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What actions would you have wanted Horford to take that would have fixed last years roster construction disaster? I can’t think of anything significant with all those free agent years and guards/wings who need the ball in their hands.
I can’t offer specific actions but if you don’t think that one person can alter the actions and behaviors of others, then you must not think there is anything to be said for leadership. In my mind, leadership is knowing what to say or how to act to influence the actions of others.
When a team seems to be going in myriad directions, when players don’t seem to be all rowing in the same direction, I attribute that to a lack of leadership. Going into last season, the Celtics presumably could have had two likely leaders: Kyrie or Al. All others were less likely due to age (JT, JB, MS), recent injury (GH) or ability (pretty much everyone else). So Kyrie’s voice and actions set the stage for a me first approach, and guys like MM and TR quickly followed.
Maybe AH could have changed things. But I never read or heard of him speaking out to offer a different path.
To me, that is the lack of leadership.
I don’t blame him for it, but I do think that something could have been said if had been willing to do so.
Maybe his voice never would have outweighed Kyrie. But his silence certainly wasn’t going to do so.
 

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I can’t offer specific actions but if you don’t think that one person can alter the actions and behaviors of others, then you must not think there is anything to be said for leadership. In my mind, leadership is knowing what to say or how to act to influence the actions of others.
When a team seems to be going in myriad directions, when players don’t seem to be all rowing in the same direction, I attribute that to a lack of leadership. Going into last season, the Celtics presumably could have had two likely leaders: Kyrie or Al. All others were less likely due to age (JT, JB, MS), recent injury (GH) or ability (pretty much everyone else). So Kyrie’s voice and actions set the stage for a me first approach, and guys like MM and TR quickly followed.
Maybe AH could have changed things. But I never read or heard of him speaking out to offer a different path.
To me, that is the lack of leadership.
I don’t blame him for it, but I do think that something could have been said if had been willing to do so.
Maybe his voice never would have outweighed Kyrie. But his silence certainly wasn’t going to do so.
I agree with most of your post here. There is a pecking order though in professional sports. No matter his character the 15th guy on the bench playing garbage time only minutes can't be the alpha dog. A leader, perhaps - but not a self appointed one. I think in Kyrie's mind his quallity of play dictates that he is a Lebron style alpha, and there was no way Horford, Haywire, or Morris was going to get him to approach things differently. Now, maybe Al could have done what Kemba has done, and organized team wide outings, or the like to build camaraderie. That might have taken the edge off the smoldering locker room fire - but it wasn't going to change the on-court product.

And giving Horford the benefit of the doubt, often times someone in his role takes their moment in quiet off camera ways, and perhaps he did and didn't see any movement by Kyrie. At the end of the day, all players are obligated to be professional and be trying to operate in the best interests of team success. If Horford realized Kyrie wasn't going to get there, I can see him declining to further pound his head into a wall.
 

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I can’t offer specific actions but if you don’t think that one person can alter the actions and behaviors of others, then you must not think there is anything to be said for leadership. In my mind, leadership is knowing what to say or how to act to influence the actions of others.
When a team seems to be going in myriad directions, when players don’t seem to be all rowing in the same direction, I attribute that to a lack of leadership. Going into last season, the Celtics presumably could have had two likely leaders: Kyrie or Al. All others were less likely due to age (JT, JB, MS), recent injury (GH) or ability (pretty much everyone else). So Kyrie’s voice and actions set the stage for a me first approach, and guys like MM and TR quickly followed.
Maybe AH could have changed things. But I never read or heard of him speaking out to offer a different path.
To me, that is the lack of leadership.
I don’t blame him for it, but I do think that something could have been said if had been willing to do so.
Maybe his voice never would have outweighed Kyrie. But his silence certainly wasn’t going to do so.
There are two ways I view this. One, there is the old axiom about how you can have one donkey on your team but can't have two because then they breed their culture throughout the team. Second, why are you singling out Horford for not being a leader when that isn't who he is? He has always been more of a steady presence rather than a leader dating back to his Hawks and Florida Gator days? If anyone should be questioned it is Smart who prides himself as a leader but per your first sentence failed in this regard but I wouldn't even question Smart much less Horford. It's like blaming the Sixers spacing problems on Simmons when that isn't a strength of his game.

I wouldn't use the term "donkey' as a permanent tag on guys like Rozier, Morris, or anyone else but you had multiple guys playing their FA year facing life-changing contracts last season along with young guys looking to make their market in Tatum and Jaylen. Add in the Kyrie "I want to be a leader but really aren't" phenomenon and there isn't much Smart, Horford, or any one individual could do when you have so many individualistic goals on the floor at once all needing the ball to play their optimal game.
 

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There are two ways I view this. One, there is the old axiom about how you can have one donkey on your team but can't have two because then they breed their culture throughout the team. Second, why are you singling out Horford for not being a leader when that isn't who he is? He has always been more of a steady presence rather than a leader dating back to his Hawks and Florida Gator days? If anyone should be questioned it is Smart who prides himself as a leader but per your first sentence failed in this regard but I wouldn't even question Smart much less Horford. It's like blaming the Sixers spacing problems on Simmons when that isn't a strength of his game.

I wouldn't use the term "donkey' as a permanent tag on guys like Rozier, Morris, or anyone else but you had multiple guys playing their FA year facing life-changing contracts last season along with young guys looking to make their market in Tatum and Jaylen. Add in the Kyrie "I want to be a leader but really aren't" phenomenon and there isn't much Smart, Horford, or any one individual could do when you have so many individualistic goals on the floor at once all needing the ball to play their optimal game.
Not the right thread but is it possible the Celtics are a better team this year because of what they endured last season?
 

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Not the right thread but is it possible the Celtics are a better team this year because of what they endured last season?
In some cases Yes, but its a mix of:
1. Brad is a better Coach due to last season
2. Danny is a better Executive due to last season
3. Tatum is a better defender due to Pop/age/development and has grown from last season
4. Brown is better offensively due to age/development and has grown from last season
5. Hayward is better/healthier due to time
6. Kemba is more inclusive/defers to kids due to being self-aware and playing for a contender
7. Theis/Kanter are better due to the Brad machine/matchups
8. Smart is Smarter
 

lovegtm

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I wouldn't use the term "donkey' as a permanent tag on guys like Rozier, Morris, or anyone else but you had multiple guys playing their FA year facing life-changing contracts last season along with young guys looking to make their market in Tatum and Jaylen. Add in the Kyrie "I want to be a leader but really aren't" phenomenon and there isn't much Smart, Horford, or any one individual could do when you have so many individualistic goals on the floor at once all needing the ball to play their optimal game.
This is accurate as hell, and I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned wrt the trade deadline. If there's one thing Danny learned last year, it's that going purely asset-based doesn't work, and chemistry/continuity/hierarchies are fragile and valuable.
 

terrynever

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In some cases Yes, but its a mix of:
1. Brad is a better Coach due to last season
2. Danny is a better Executive due to last season
3. Tatum is a better defender due to Pop/age/development and has grown from last season
4. Brown is better offensively due to age/development and has grown from last season
5. Hayward is better/healthier due to time
6. Kemba is more inclusive/defers to kids due to being self-aware and playing for a contender
7. Theis/Kanter are better due to the Brad machine/matchups
8. Smart is Smarter
Thanks. Teams should get better, during a season especially, assuming the coaching is top-notch and the players want to work at improving. Seems obvious but as we both know, high expectations can be a burden.
 

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Thanks. Teams should get better, during a season especially, assuming the coaching is top-notch and the players want to work at improving. Seems obvious but as we both know, high expectations can be a burden.
This seems a little too simplistic when you are competing against 29 other teams all striving to accomplish these same improvements that we are. This years Patriots are an example of a team who appeared to have these traits yet regressed as the year went on.
 

benhogan

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Thanks. Teams should get better, during a season especially, assuming the coaching is top-notch and the players want to work at improving. Seems obvious but as we both know, high expectations can be a burden.
Last year's C's and this year 76ers both had/have targets on their back. Teams get up to beat them

HRB nailed C's dysfunction last season. Seems like the 76ers have some big-time spacing and ego issues
 

terrynever

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This seems a little too simplistic when you are competing against 29 other teams all striving to accomplish these same improvements that we are. This years Patriots are an example of a team who appeared to have these traits yet regressed as the year went on.
I’m a simple guy, HRB. The goal is always to get better. Any coach will tell you that. But long seasons can take a toll. I would argue the Patriots were under scheduled for eight games.
 

terrynever

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Last year's C's and this year 76ers both had/have targets on their back. Teams get up to beat them

HRB nailed C's dysfunction last season. Seems like the 76ers have some big-time spacing and ego issues
I want to see what kind of energy Philly plays with tonight, and then more importantly when they go back on the road. Embiid played hard for a half against Memphis on Friday.
 

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After scoring a career-high 34 off the bench on Friday night, Furkan Korkmaz just scored 14 points in four minutes tonight against the Bulls.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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After scoring a career-high 34 off the bench on Friday night, Furkan Korkmaz just scored 14 points in four minutes tonight against the Bulls.
100 attempts minimum, Korkmaz is fifth in the league in home 3P% at .466, behind Bjelica (.513), Duncan Robinson (.503); Terrance Davis (.476); and Reddick (.468). The three other guys shooting over .450 are Bertans (.463), Paul George (.463), and Middleton (.451).
 

terrynever

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100 attempts minimum, Korkmaz is fifth in the league in home 3P% at .466, behind Bjelica (.513), Duncan Robinson (.503); Terrance Davis (.476); and Reddick (.468). The three other guys shooting over .450 are Bertans (.463), Paul George (.463), and Middleton (.451).
Thanks. Like a lot of a Sixers, his road numbers are below average, maybe 32 percent. Actually, 33.1.
 

tims4wins

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Veteran Philly scribe Marcus Hayes makes some good points about Embiid and the impact of tanking on the 76ers.

That's a pretty scathing article. A few choice excerpts:

He is not the beacon of hope that Philadelphia wanted him to be. He never has been.


He also is an undisciplined, out-of-shape non-leader, untouchable and uncoachable. He doesn’t post up enough, he complains constantly, his effort is inconsistent, and his attitude, often poor. Oh yeah, he’s hurt all the time.


culture of permissiveness that has created the entitled and uncontrollable monsters that Ben “Won’t Shoot” Simmons and Joel “Won’t Diet” Embiid have become.

I mean, wow.
 

lovegtm

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That's a pretty scathing article. A few choice excerpts:

He is not the beacon of hope that Philadelphia wanted him to be. He never has been.


He also is an undisciplined, out-of-shape non-leader, untouchable and uncoachable. He doesn’t post up enough, he complains constantly, his effort is inconsistent, and his attitude, often poor. Oh yeah, he’s hurt all the time.


culture of permissiveness that has created the entitled and uncontrollable monsters that Ben “Won’t Shoot” Simmons and Joel “Won’t Diet” Embiid have become.

I mean, wow.
He's also had a weird team built around him, and (by all accounts) the team didn't make the effort he wanted to retain Butler. The dude had them a few bounces away from the ECF with a strong chance if they got in.

Embiid has his issues for sure, but this feels like a CHB article.
 

terrynever

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That's a pretty scathing article. A few choice excerpts:

He is not the beacon of hope that Philadelphia wanted him to be. He never has been.


He also is an undisciplined, out-of-shape non-leader, untouchable and uncoachable. He doesn’t post up enough, he complains constantly, his effort is inconsistent, and his attitude, often poor. Oh yeah, he’s hurt all the time.


culture of permissiveness that has created the entitled and uncontrollable monsters that Ben “Won’t Shoot” Simmons and Joel “Won’t Diet” Embiid have become.

I mean, wow.
yeah, when I hear you guys complain about CHB, I smile because Philly has always had two or three caustic scribes.

Back in 1972, in an earlier tanking period, after Wilt left, the 76ers used their first-round pick on a 6-9 center named Al Henry. Daily News beat writer Jack Kiser wrote, “The 76ers need a center in the worst way and Al Henry is a center in the worst way.”
 

Euclis20

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He's also had a weird team built around him, and (by all accounts) the team didn't make the effort he wanted to retain Butler. The dude had them a few bounces away from the ECF with a strong chance if they got in.

Embiid has his issues for sure, but this feels like a CHB article.
Yeah, I have a pretty low opinion of the Sixers in general and specifically Embiid, but this was a hack job.
 

terrynever

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He's also had a weird team built around him, and (by all accounts) the team didn't make the effort he wanted to retain Butler. The dude had them a few bounces away from the ECF with a strong chance if they got in.

Embiid has his issues for sure, but this feels like a CHB article.
I think the booing before Friday’s game inspired Hayes to write this story. He also admonished the fans for boing before the game.
Hayes references a few other NBA stars who operate with their own rules. Some back it up, like LBJ. But we are seeing more guys like Irving who want to be both player and GM.
 

lovegtm

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So if you were covering the 76ers, what would you write?
A nuanced article about the things that Joel does bring to the table, how the front office has let him down in a lot of ways (starting with the Hinkie firing, which he didn't like, and continuing through not giving Butler 5 years), and how placating both him and Simmons has led to a weird dynamic?

Hahahahahaha who am I kidding it's Philly
 

tims4wins

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He's also had a weird team built around him, and (by all accounts) the team didn't make the effort he wanted to retain Butler. The dude had them a few bounces away from the ECF with a strong chance if they got in.

Embiid has his issues for sure, but this feels like a CHB article.
Yeah I wasn't saying the article was correct, just weird seeing such a negative article about a home team's star. Definitely the Boston playbook of smear campaign... but this is even before he's on the way out.
 

terrynever

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A nuanced article about the things that Joel does bring to the table, how the front office has let him down in a lot of ways (starting with the Hinkie firing, which he didn't like, and continuing through not giving Butler 5 years), and how placating both him and Simmons has led to a weird dynamic?

Hahahahahaha who am I kidding it's Philly
Hayes is just one writer and I agree, this was a hatchet job. The Inquirer’s beat writer, Keith Pompey, toes the company line, for the most part.
If by Philly, you mean the environment is toxic for teams trying to win, I see your point.
Outside of CHB, is there any writer in Boston who can spell a skunk before it stinks? When Irving first came to Boston, they loved him. And it took more than a year before the Boston media realized what a fraud he was.
I know you guys disagree with that. My basic point is, Boston pro sports media is pretty tame compared to Philly and N.Y. Probably because your four teams have been so successful
 

lovegtm

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Hayes is just one writer and I agree, this was a hatchet job. The Inquirer’s beat writer, Keith Pompey, toes the company line, for the most part.
If by Philly, you mean the environment is toxic for teams trying to win, I see your point.
Outside of CHB, is there any writer in Boston who can spell a skunk before it stinks? When Irving first came to Boston, they loved him. And it took more than a year before the Boston media realized what a fraud he was.
I know you guys disagree with that. My basic point is, Boston pro sports media is pretty tame compared to Philly and N.Y. Probably because your four teams have been so successful
I think it’s a fair point that Boston media has more false positives than false negatives these days.

The Sixers are a weird case, and it might be an online/old-school split: a ton of the online guys were huge Process stans.
 

terrynever

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I think it’s a fair point that Boston media has more false positives than false negatives these days.

The Sixers are a weird case, and it might be an online/old-school split: a ton of the online guys were huge Process stans.
I just realized that Wilt forced his way out of Philly after his favorite coach, Alex Hannum, left in 1969. So there is a precedent in Philly for trading a stud center. Wilt was similar to Embiid in some ways. Very intelligent, not happy with his supporting cast compared to what Bill Russell had in Boston. History repeats itself.

Will Philly keep both Ben and Embiid? That’s a delicious topic for all kinds of analysis. My eyeball test is Ben makes his teammates better. His effort is almost constant. So what could they get for Embiid? Another max contract, I guess. No need to discuss this now because there is still hope for this team. Ultimately, it’s the owner‘s call.
 

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Fwiw, the complementary mix is important. This year's team has a bad mix. I know that some will argue this, but I don't believe that it's an Simmons vs. Embiid thing. Butler was a good fit, for example. They need the right mix of slashers and shooters on offense and already play great defense. They need tweaks not reconstruction imo.
 

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Drastic times calls for drastic measures, so Brett Brown benches Horford for Korkmaz. Bold move Cotton!

Korkmaz is currently 0-5 on the night but the Sixers are up 4 midway through 4Q.
 

lovegtm

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Drastic times calls for drastic measures, so Brett Brown benches Horford for Korkmaz. Bold move Cotton!

Korkmaz is currently 0-5 on the night but the Sixers are up 4 midway through 4Q.
That contract definitely probably will never be bad.

(I’ll be interested to watch Al in the playoffs this year. Watching last year’s, I was surprised how much pop he had in his legs. If that’s not there this year, I’m confident saying he’s cooked, and also the converse.)
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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AL ends up playing 28 minutes but only because Embiid only plays 28 minutes - Brown doesn't play them together until the 4Q. While this approach will probably win a few more games in the short-run, I wonder what the plan is in the plyoffs. Keep limiting Embiid's minutes; reduce Al's; or have them play together?

I said this in the NBA February thread but JRich was key for them last night. He hit all of the big shots to keep PHI ahead. PHI really missed him when he was injured.
 

terrynever

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Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Aug 25, 2005
16,862
pawtucket
I thought Al looked good coming off the bench last night. That might be his best role, backup center and glue guy for the second unit. Remember, the second unit was a big problem for Philly last year. Horford and Embiid were on the floor together briefly for the final minutes. Their offensive symmetry may be lacking but they are an effective defensive duo.
Last night proved very little. What happens on the road is more revealing of this team. They are idle now for 10 days. Brett Brown will try to get Robinson and Burks acclimated. Josh Richardson has time to get fully healthy.
Nothing has changed. Philly is still dangerous. We can talk all we want but the 76ers have to change their road mentality. That’s on them.
 
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lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
6,441
Kiev, Ukraine
A reasonable look at Al Horford by Inquirer’s David Murphy.

I can answer the headline without reading the article: what it means for the Sixers is that he'll be a good backup 15-20 mpg center, which is not a position you want to pay $27M/year for.