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terrynever

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The “he’s over 30” thing looks so bad when they signed a clearly-on-the-downside Al Horford to slightly less money at age 33.

At least, that’s how I can imagine Embiid seeing it. I understand the reasoning for Harris+Horford, even if I didn't love it for them.
Big Al had an awful game against Boston, to be sure. His offensive stats are a big falloff from last year, which was arguably his best shooting season with Boston. This year he is tossing up 4.4 threes per game compared with 3.1 last year. He is playing 31 minutes per game, up two from last year. Horford is such an easy-going guy, you don’t see much frustration. But he is not getting the pick and pop jumpers as often in Philly.

Still, he does a lot of good things for Philly. When times get tough in the playoffs, Horford should be a positive force for Philly. He’s a pro.

 

lovegtm

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Big Al had an awful game against Boston, to be sure. His offensive stats are a big falloff from last year, which was arguably his best shooting season with Boston. This year he is tossing up 4.4 threes per game compared with 3.1 last year. He is playing 31 minutes per game, up two from last year. Horford is such an easy-going guy, you don’t see much frustration. But he is not getting the pick and pop jumpers as often in Philly.

Still, he does a lot of good things for Philly. When times get tough in the playoffs, Horford should be a positive force for Philly. He’s a pro.

Paying a "pro" $27 per for 3.5 years is not great when what you really needed was a Baynes-type.

Each individual move Brand makes has a sort of logic, and then the finished puzzle is an incoherent mess.
 

HomeRunBaker

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The “he’s over 30” thing looks so bad when they signed a clearly-on-the-downside Al Horford to slightly less money at age 33.

At least, that’s how I can imagine Embiid seeing it. I understand the reasoning for Harris+Horford, even if I didn't love it for them.
I wouldn’t be writing Horford’s obituary just yet. He’s a veteran on an awful roster fit with no spacing and it’s team leaders being in their young/mid 20’s. His role changes game by game and rotation by rotation. Shooting is about rhythm and Horford is all out of sorts.....you don’t simply forget how to shoot at age 33.

It’s the same point I was making about Ariza all season and look what an escape from dysfunction has done to him? I don’t think Horford is any different......it’s the situation and not the player.
 

terrynever

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Paying a "pro" $27 per for 3.5 years is not great when what you really needed was a Baynes-type.

Each individual move Brand makes has a sort of logic, and then the finished puzzle is an incoherent mess.
And he may shake up the puzzle again at the trade deadline. Brand is a bit impulsive for a new GM. He’ll probably just target a bench shooter. He’s stuck with the major pieces.
 

the moops

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Decent summary of 76ers‘ trade options. Thybulle is their only tradable asset.
While Thybulle is their best asset, I think they have other pieces that could be attractive to some trams. They have a boatload of 2nd round picks. And some good ones this year in ATL and NYK. Also have OKC first this year. Zhaire Smith must have some value?
 

terrynever

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While Thybulle is their best asset, I think they have other pieces that could be attractive to some trams. They have a boatload of 2nd round picks. And some good ones this year in ATL and NYK. Also have OKC first this year. Zhaire Smith must have some value?
Zhaire is another of those young kids who come in the league early. He’s still in the gestation period, playing mostly for Delaware. Nothing real exciting so far.
 

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People harsh on Simmons a lot for not shooting jumpers, but I love his game. He was just in attack mode all night.

Kemba for Simmons, who says no? Simmons/Brown/Tatum/Hayward/Theis would be an ultimate switchable lineup.
I don't watch any non-Celtics Sixers games, what would be the best system for Simmons? People talk all the time about he doesn't gel with Embiid. There are very other teams with Embiid-like low post guys, I assume that would mean Simmons could gel very well with most of them. Intra-division trades being difficult aside, would he fit well with the Jays?
 

Cesar Crespo

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I don't watch any non-Celtics Sixers games, what would be the best system for Simmons? People talk all the time about he doesn't gel with Embiid. There are very other teams with Embiid-like low post guys, I assume that would mean Simmons could gel very well with most of them. Intra-division trades being difficult aside, would he fit well with the Jays?
The Jays? The Raptors?

edit: Oh, Jaylen and Jayson. Maybe.
 

NomarsFool

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I don't know their roster, but it would seem difficult for Minnesota to have enough decent salary to send back for Simmons.

How about S&T Hayward for Simmons?
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Towns for Embiid works in the trade machine.
I just watched the 3Q of the Heat game and while I didn't take notes on every possession, it was pretty obvious that on defense, Embiid planted himself in the paint and never moved out of it. Consequently, the Heat simply used Bam as a screener and got open shot after open shot.

It was so bad that if someone asked me to guess (I'm sure teams have tracking data on this) who moved less on defense in their respective 3Qs - Trae Young versus Cs or Embiid versus MIA, I wouldn't have any idea who to pick.

It will be interesting to see what switch Embiid can turn on when games matter but PHI isn't going to stop anyone if he never leaves the paint.
 

lovegtm

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I just watched the 3Q of the Heat game and while I didn't take notes on every possession, it was pretty obvious that on defense, Embiid planted himself in the paint and never moved out of it. Consequently, the Heat simply used Bam as a screener and got open shot after open shot.

It was so bad that if someone asked me to guess (I'm sure teams have tracking data on this) who moved less on defense in their respective 3Qs - Trae Young versus Cs or Embiid versus MIA, I wouldn't have any idea who to pick.

It will be interesting to see what switch Embiid can turn on when games matter but PHI isn't going to stop anyone if he never leaves the paint.
I’m wondering at what point Embiid just says “fuck it”, especially if the reports about his wanting to keep Butler are true.

He clearly jacked himself up pretty hard for the early Celtics games this year, but it’s hard to find that level of motivation if you’re looking at 4-5 East teams being better and no light at the end of the tunnel.
 

benhogan

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I just watched the 3Q of the Heat game and while I didn't take notes on every possession, it was pretty obvious that on defense, Embiid planted himself in the paint and never moved out of it. Consequently, the Heat simply used Bam as a screener and got open shot after open shot.

It was so bad that if someone asked me to guess (I'm sure teams have tracking data on this) who moved less on defense in their respective 3Qs - Trae Young versus Cs or Embiid versus MIA, I wouldn't have any idea who to pick.

It will be interesting to see what switch Embiid can turn on when games matter but PHI isn't going to stop anyone if he never leaves the paint.
I didn't see this game but you do see many classic big men get frustrated on a nightly basis. Every time I have a Pistons game on for 5-10mins, Drummond tries playing the perimeter for a few plays, gets beat, then retreats to the paint. So many of these BIGs are subpar defending the 3pt line, shooting 3s/FTs, handling the ball/passing and don't have the build/stamina for the game's pace for 30mpg.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I didn't see this game but you do see many classic big men get frustrated on a nightly basis. Every time I have a Pistons game on for 5-10mins, Drummond tries playing the perimeter for a few plays, gets beat, then retreats to the paint. So many of these BIGs are subpar defending the 3pt line, shooting 3s/FTs, handling the ball/passing and don't have the build/stamina for the game's pace for 30mpg.
I haven't watched Drummond but watch the first 5 or 6 Heat baskets after the start of the 3Q (see video below which starts just before the end of the 1st half) minus the one where Butler just scores over Milton. Butler/Robinson were getting wide open looks because Embiid literally didn't make any effort on the screens.

I don't have time to watch a lot of NBA other than BOS but if that is how bigs are playing across the league, then DA is smart for foregoing them and having a guy like Theis who can at least try on defense in the perimeter. Not to mention, how is Embiid going to build up any stamina or muscle memory for the playoffs, when this kind of defense certainly won't fly?

One other note. The last play of the first half is pretty amazing - Butler easily beats Simmons off the dribble and no other PHI player moves more than 1/2 step. Can't remember the last time I saw anything like that at the end of a half.

View: https://youtu.be/qgTrHexaNT4?t=308
 

The Social Chair

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I don't watch any non-Celtics Sixers games, what would be the best system for Simmons? People talk all the time about he doesn't gel with Embiid.
Basically what Milwaukee does with Giannis. Surround him with shooters. He'd be unbelievable on Golden State.
 

joe dokes

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I didn't see this game but you do see many classic big men get frustrated on a nightly basis. Every time I have a Pistons game on for 5-10mins, Drummond tries playing the perimeter for a few plays, gets beat, then retreats to the paint. So many of these BIGs are subpar defending the 3pt line, shooting 3s/FTs, handling the ball/passing and don't have the build/stamina for the game's pace for 30mpg.
Thus we see Stevens annually trying to keep the centers' minutes low, and perhaps why, for example, Aron Baynes has had a couple of lengthy absences in a season in which his mpg is about 25% higher than ever before and 45% higher than his career average -- in his age 33 season.
 

benhogan

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Thus we see Stevens annually trying to keep the centers' minutes low, and perhaps why, for example, Aron Baynes has had a couple of lengthy absences in a season in which his mpg is about 25% higher than ever before and 45% higher than his career average -- in his age 33 season.
yep, Aron Baynes should never be a 26-30mpg player at age 33 or age 30. Especially after playing all Summer with Oz. Most cheap 5s, like AB & Theis & Kanter, should be playing limited minutes (15-20mpg) due to stamina, health/injury, matchups, efficiency etc
 
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RetractableRoof

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yep, Aron Baynes should never be a 26-30mpg player at age 33 or age 30. Especially after playing all Summer with Oz. Most cheap 5s, like AB & Theis & Kanter, should be playing limited minutes (15-20mpg) due to stamina, health/injury, matchups, efficiency etc
Do you think Baynes would fit in on this years Celtics team, WRT chemistry, etc.? /ducks
 

Euclis20

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Basically what Milwaukee does with Giannis. Surround him with shooters. He'd be unbelievable on Golden State.
The problem will be the same, he can't (or won't) shoot from the outside, at all. Right now in terms of scoring efficiency and volume, he's basically Gordon Hayward:

Simmons: 16.7 ppg, .607 TS%, 20.6 USG%
Hayward: 17.0 ppg, .600 TS%, 21.0 USG%

Is anyone building an offense around Hayward? It's true that Simmons/Embiid isn't an ideal fit and both guys may do better with different running mates, but Simmons isn't enough of a scorer to justify that sort of effort. He'd be unbelievable on Golden State because pretty much any playmaker would look good playing with maybe the two greatest unselfish shooters of all time. Swapping him out for Giannis (or something similar) would be a waste because he just isn't a good enough scorer. No matter where he goes, his ceiling will be limited by his uselessness outside of the paint.
 

RetractableRoof

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Literally everyone here thinks he would fit. The issue is that he opted in before the Celtics knew they were getting Kemba. This has been gone over many times.
Did you perhaps see the "/ducks" at the end? I was asking the unabashed Baynes fan a silly "would he fit here" question in an attempt to tease/joke with him.

I'm sorry it didn't register with you as humor.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Basically what Milwaukee does with Giannis. Surround him with shooters. He'd be unbelievable on Golden State.
Right?!? Instead, they don’t retain any of his shooters while replacing them with Horford who is redundant in what Simmons does except at a worse level. Nonsensical.
 

terrynever

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It's pretty ironic that Horford, the ultimate "good guy", is stuck in dysfunction junction again...

while we are on the 76ers thread, what are the latest rumors in Philly?
I read the Inquirer every day and one or two hoop writers in Philly. The consensus is Philly can do nothing major at the deadline, as they did last year with the Clippers. It’s nearly impossible to trade Simmons right now. So maybe they get a journeyman guard. I hope they do not trade Thybulle but Brand traded Shamet last year. He is kind of impulsive.

The faint hope is this team is built for the playoffs. Once that hope is extinguished, owner Josh Harris will make a top-down decision. He’s a smart guy in money markets. Color me unimpressed with his talent for creating a strong management team that can put a cohesive basketball team together.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I read the Inquirer every day and one or two hoop writers in Philly. The consensus is Philly can do nothing major at the deadline, as they did last year with the Clippers. It’s nearly impossible to trade Simmons right now. So maybe they get a journeyman guard. I hope they do not trade Thybulle but Brand traded Shamet last year. He is kind of impulsive.

The faint hope is this team is built for the playoffs. Once that hope is extinguished, owner Josh Harris will make a top-down decision. He’s a smart guy in money markets. Color me unimpressed with his talent for creating a strong management team that can put a cohesive basketball team together.
Is Brett Brown's job in danger right now or will they wait until after the season?
 

terrynever

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Is Brett Brown's job in danger right now or will they wait until after the season?
End of season, imo. But what you’re really asking is will the 76ers quit on Brown as they fall into a comfortable sixth seed. Brown has known Simmons since Ben was a kid. Maybe Embiid believes he will never be No. 1 with this coach. But the problem here is that Embiid is really just a big kid at 25. He is brooding and not playing defense unless challenged. That hurts this team. So he could just loaf his way into the postseason. But we will all still love him because this is the city that produced Wilt Chamberlain. At times, Embiid takes your breath away.
Worst-case: Brown goes first after this season ends. Not sure if Brand survives. But someone has to choose between Ben and Joel. I would think Ben might not mind playing in California.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Is Brett Brown's job in danger right now or will they wait until after the season?
It sure sounds like it should be but otoh it won't really matter who the coach is if the owners are partying with the players. This sounds like such an unprofessional environment especially when you are talking about young entitled players.
 

Van Everyman

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As a Celtics fan, I'm sort of torn on seeing the Sixers endure this kind of dysfunction. Simmons' limitations annoy me when compared to his reputation, but I will always like Al, and Embiid may be a villain but he's a hard one to dislike. At its best, this is a great rivalry -- and this team def. endured plenty of down years during the Process to deserve a little sunlight on the other side.

Brown, however, seems to suck. Much like when the Bucks hired Budenholzer, you get the sense that this team is being held back by a subpar coach and could really take off with a change, even with the flaws.
 

bigq

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I wonder if Embiid came back too soon from his injury. The Sixers have one win and four losses in the games since he came back with the win coming against the tanking Warriors. Tough opponents in that stretch including the Celtics, Heat and Bucks. Embiid’s performance was frightful in 2 of the 5 games since returning to the lineup. Certainly could be recency bias on my part as I watched the two recent games he played poorly in.

Also Horford has been bad on the offensive end and is at a career low in FG%.

Long season and the Sixers are going through a rough patch. They still have time to pull it together and I think they will be a tough opponent in the playoffs but their recent big man production has been less than what they need it to be.
 

lovegtm

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I wonder if Embiid came back too soon from his injury. The Sixers have one win and four losses in the games since he came back with the win coming against the tanking Warriors. Tough opponents in that stretch including the Celtics, Heat and Bucks. Embiid’s performance was frightful in 2 of the 5 games since returning to the lineup. Certainly could be recency bias on my part as I watched the two recent games he played poorly in.

Also Horford has been bad on the offensive end and is at a career low in FG%.

Long season and the Sixers are going through a rough patch. They still have time to pull it together and I think they will be a tough opponent in the playoffs but their recent big man production has been less than what they need it to be.
It's not just you. He's not the same guy right now, for whatever reason, probably the injury.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Also Horford has been bad on the offensive end and is at a career low in FG%.
I watched a bit of the Heat game and from highlights of MIL game, Horford doesn't look like he's moving too well on defense either.

Apparently, Sixers signed Horford at the cost of Reddick (among other things). As many of us recognized at the time, that decision made no sense and it looks like it's going to haunt them.
 

benhogan

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I watched a bit of the Heat game and from highlights of MIL game, Horford doesn't look like he's moving too well on defense either.

Apparently, Sixers signed Horford at the cost of Reddick (among other things). As many of us recognized at the time, that decision made no sense and it looks like it's going to haunt them.
I'll have to offer a mea culpa here. I thought adding Horford would create a defensive juggernaut, ensure the Sixers performed when Joel sat in-game or when Embiid load managed. That contract is looking bad.

I also thought trading for/maxing Tobias Harris was also a bad move and still feel that way. So I'm not pinning it all on Big Al. The entire teams' construction looks sketchy.
 

terrynever

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I'll have to offer a mea culpa here. I thought adding Horford would create a defensive juggernaut, ensure the Sixers performed when Joel sat in-game or when Embiid load managed. That contract is looking bad.

I also thought trading for/maxing Tobias Harris was also a bad move and still feel that way. So I'm not pinning it all on Big Al. The entire teams' construction looks sketchy.
You guys have every right to say this stuff. 76ers are a mess right now. But I am going to hold off judging Brand’s moves last year until they go down in the playoffs. Still holding out hope that Embiid and Horford figure things out.

I thought the defense would carry this team, too. It did for 35 games and then the full-out effort needed to play smothering defense just went away. Last night, the Bucks owned the boards and went to the floor for loose balls. You don’t see a 76er on the floor very often. Except Embiid when he is begging for a foul.

As Barkley asked last night, who is the leader of this team? Not Joel or Ben. They both have issues managing their own games. Harris is kind of soft, and quiet. Same for Richardson. Horford is too new in town to take charge.

The coach seems incapable of designing plays and encouraging ball movement when the transition game is shut down.
 

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You guys have every right to say this stuff. 76ers are a mess right now. But I am going to hold off judging Brand’s moves last year until they go down in the playoffs. Still holding out hope that Embiid and Horford figure things out.

I thought the defense would carry this team, too. It did for 35 games and then the full-out effort needed to play smothering defense just went away. Last night, the Bucks owned the boards and went to the floor for loose balls. You don’t see a 76er on the floor very often. Except Embiid when he is begging for a foul.

As Barkley asked last night, who is the leader of this team? Not Joel or Ben. They both have issues managing their own games. Harris is kind of soft, and quiet. Same for Richardson. Horford is too new in town to take charge.

The coach seems incapable of designing plays and encouraging ball movement when the transition game is shut down.
I don't think Al is simply too new to the team; I think he's just not a leader type. If he were, he would have put a stop to the Kyrie disfunction last year as the de facto veteran on the team. Instead, I think he chose flight over fight.
 

lovegtm

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You guys have every right to say this stuff. 76ers are a mess right now. But I am going to hold off judging Brand’s moves last year until they go down in the playoffs. Still holding out hope that Embiid and Horford figure things out.

I thought the defense would carry this team, too. It did for 35 games and then the full-out effort needed to play smothering defense just went away. Last night, the Bucks owned the boards and went to the floor for loose balls. You don’t see a 76er on the floor very often. Except Embiid when he is begging for a foul.

As Barkley asked last night, who is the leader of this team? Not Joel or Ben. They both have issues managing their own games. Harris is kind of soft, and quiet. Same for Richardson. Horford is too new in town to take charge.

The coach seems incapable of designing plays and encouraging ball movement when the transition game is shut down.
I don't want to pile on since that's not cool to do when someone's team is down, but what has Brand done to earn the benefit of the doubt? He turned Covington and Saric into Josh Richardson, gave up significant assets for the right to sign Harris to an instantly untradeable contract, sold low on Fultz, and signed Horford to another very hard-to-trade deal.

Brand feels like what would happen if the posters on CelticsBlog swapped bodies with Ainge in some kind of Freaky Friday scenario.
 

terrynever

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I don't want to pile on since that's not cool to do when someone's team is down, but what has Brand done to earn the benefit of the doubt? He turned Covington and Saric into Josh Richardson, gave up significant assets for the right to sign Harris to an instantly untradeable contract, sold low on Fultz, and signed Horford to another very hard-to-trade deal.

Brand feels like what would happen if the posters on CelticsBlog swapped bodies with Ainge in some kind of Freaky Friday scenario.
Elton Brand had good timing. After retiring in 2016 from Philly, he was named a player consultant. A year later, he took over as GM of Delaware team for Philly in the G League. A year later, after the Colangelo fiasco blew up, owner Josh Harris named Brand as GM. He was nearby. That was his main asset. Harris probably thought he could control Brand but Elton has his own mind. Duke guy, close to Coach K.

My concern is more with ownership. Jerry Colangelo was foisted on the franchise by the league. Harris allowed his son to take over.

The road from Tanksville to Elite is long and winding. Philly got stuck at the intersection of mediocre coaching and poor management.
 

bowiac

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I don't want to pile on since that's not cool to do when someone's team is down, but what has Brand done to earn the benefit of the doubt? He turned Covington and Saric into Josh Richardson, gave up significant assets for the right to sign Harris to an instantly untradeable contract, sold low on Fultz, and signed Horford to another very hard-to-trade deal.
Covington/Josh Richardson bit is somewhat unfair - he turned Covington into Jimmy Butler, but that situation went sideways much the same way as Kyrie, and then he salvaged it by getting Richardson. I get we grade things by results mostly, but the process there was fine. Butler was a good basketball fit, and they came within a legendary Kawhi shot of taking down the eventually champs.

Horford is a hard-to-trade deal, but what was he going to do with that cap space? It couldn't be rolled over due to the Simmons extension anyway. What's the opportunity cost there?

And I'm not sure how low they really sold on Fultz. What do you think Orlando could get for Fultz now? A high 2nd rounder? I think a team would be nuts to trade a 1st for him, so that's roughly the return Philly got anyway.

The one move I think was a mistake at the time was Tobias Harris. The rest looks like competently executed moves and making the best of a bit of a mess of a roster. It looks like it may not work out, but I'm not seeing the obvious alternatives. I'd grade his tenure at a B so far.
 

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As I noted in the February gamethread, we should probably wait to see if Robinson and Burks help offensively before throwing dirt on the 6ers. They may open things up a little more for Philadelphia and deepen their rotation.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Horford is a hard-to-trade deal, but what was he going to do with that cap space? It couldn't be rolled over due to the Simmons extension anyway. What's the opportunity cost there?
The biggest blunder Brand made was not re-signing Reddick. I haven't seen anything to suggest that he couldn't have re-signed Reddick and no one's been able to figure out quite why he didn't. Reddick is exactly the guy they need right now, even if he is a sixth man off the bench.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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As I noted in the February gamethread, we should probably wait to see if Robinson and Burks help offensively before throwing dirt on the 6ers. They may open things up a little more for Philadelphia and deepen their rotation.
They'd probably help more if Brown started reducing Al's minutes, but I doubt that is going to happen. The structural problem on the Sixers is how to get Horford, Simmons, and Embiid playing well when they are on the floor together.
 

bowiac

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The biggest blunder Brand made was not re-signing Reddick. I haven't seen anything to suggest that he couldn't have re-signed Reddick and no one's been able to figure out quite why he didn't. Reddick is exactly the guy they need right now, even if he is a sixth man off the bench.
This is a fair retort, and I agree Redick may be a better fit for the roster than Horford. Even there however, I see where Brand was coming from - Horford is probably a better overall player, and Brand bet on acquiring talent and figuring it out fit later. I agree that looks like a mistake right now.