76ers 2019-2020

benhogan

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The Sixers are Screwed and There's No Clear Solution: https://www.phillyvoice.com/sixers-76ers-brett-brown-joel-embiid-joshua-harris-trades-free-agents-blow-up-rebuild-analysis/

Article pretty much summarizes what everyone has been saying here but it's still entertaining. It also includes the tweet below:

View: https://twitter.com/MOConnor_NBA/status/1296248122679660544?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1296248122679660544%7Ctwgr%5E&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.phillyvoice.com%2Fsixers-76ers-brett-brown-joel-embiid-joshua-harris-trades-free-agents-blow-up-rebuild-analysis%2F


If the Sixers didn’t trade Bridges and then did literally nothing but retain their guys after draft night 2018: Embiid
Simmons
JJ
Covington
Bridges
Shamet
Shake
Dario
Furk
Holmes
TLC
Fultz
~$18m unused cap for this yr All their own picks, including the one(s) that became Tisse
Ranking the boneheaded moves
1. Fultz for Tatum + Sac pick
2. Trade for Tobias Harris
3. The max contract to Tobias Harris
4. FA deal for Al Horford
5. Assets for Butler then not re-signing him (which was driven by Butler not wanting to play for BBrown)
6. Not re-signing JJ
7. local kid Bridges for Zhaire Smith
8. Holmes even has value now
9. Drafting Okafor high and getting nothing back

Its a combo of years of bad draft picks + bad trades + bad signings.

BUT all of that would be washed away if they had done a head fake on Danny and selected Tatum instead of Fultz
 
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lovegtm

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I can’t really put #7 as a bad deal. Everyone loved it at the time and thought it was a good move to squeeze out an extra asset, like Hinkie’s Saric trade.

Everything about Harris and Horford was brutal though. Just sign a backup center for decent money and be done with it (wrt Horford).
 

BaseballJones

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Ranking the boneheaded moves
1. Fultz for Tatum + Sac pick
2. Trade for Tobias Harris
3. The max contract to Tobias Harris
4. FA deal for Al Horford
5. Assets for Butler then not re-signing him (which was driven by Butler not wanting play for Brett Brown)
6. Not re-signing JJ
7. local kid Bridges for Zhaire Smith
8. Holmes even has value now
9. Drafting Okafor high and getting nothing back

Its a combo of years of bad draft picks + bad trades + bad signings.

BUT all of that would be washed away if they had done a head fake on Danny and selected Tatum instead of Fultz
And Fultz is turning out to be a totally legit NBA player after all. It just goes to show how incredible Tatum has become.
 

Red Averages

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Would Tatum be where he is today if he were drafted by the 76ers instead of growing with Brad Stevens, getting critical development when Hayward/Kyrie got hurt?
 

Saints Rest

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Ranking the boneheaded moves
1. Fultz for Tatum + Sac pick
2. Trade for Tobias Harris
3. The max contract to Tobias Harris
4. FA deal for Al Horford
5. Assets for Butler then not re-signing him (which was driven by Butler not wanting to play for BBrown)
6. Not re-signing JJ
7. local kid Bridges for Zhaire Smith
8. Holmes even has value now
9. Drafting Okafor high and getting nothing back

Its a combo of years of bad draft picks + bad trades + bad signings.

BUT all of that would be washed away if they had done a head fake on Danny and selected Tatum instead of Fultz
Where does BRett Brown land on this list?
 

lovegtm

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Would Tatum be where he is today if he were drafted by the 76ers instead of growing with Brad Stevens, getting critical development when Hayward/Kyrie got hurt?
Tatum would be this good even if he had gone to Phoenix or Sacramento. Jaylen is the guy who needed development/environment imo.
 

benhogan

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Would Tatum be where he is today if he were drafted by the 76ers instead of growing with Brad Stevens, getting critical development when Hayward/Kyrie got hurt?
Its a good question.

Butler was critical of Brett Brown during the JJ podcast and pretty much said he decided to leave since there was zero coaching/accountability from the jump.

The 2019 Celtics were directionless which led to Tatum dribbling into mid-range jumpers and floaters

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrGv50kR7A4
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Would Tatum be where he is today if he were drafted by the 76ers instead of growing with Brad Stevens, getting critical development when Hayward/Kyrie got hurt?
Good point. I mean JT's development was obviously slowed by KI. With Simmons and Embiid, how many touches would he get per game?

I mean he'd be good but I doubt he'd be where he is today.
 

benhogan

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I can’t really put #7 as a bad deal. Everyone loved it at the time and thought it was a good move to squeeze out an extra asset, like Hinkie’s Saric trade.

Everything about Harris and Horford was brutal though. Just sign a backup center for decent money and be done with it (wrt Horford).
I've added Bridges since he played well in the bubble, and Zhaire has been a 0, but very SSS...shipping a local Nova kid has to sting the fanbase.

*My schadenfreude towards the 76ers may lead to overexuberance of kicking them while they are down...guilty as charged
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I guess a hair behind ownership and the front office.

BUT since the 76ers are managed by Groupthink, Brown may be behind some of those moves.
It's funny. Not completely applicable but when I've participated in the SOSH football survivor pool, even though we at SOSH are contrarian and like to this of us as more analytical, for the most part, our picks end up mirroring what everyone else is going.

I point this out just because there's a danger with groupthink. Maybe it helps in private equity - means the group is mirroring consensus - but not great in the NBA where decisions are about evaluation and sticking to them.

For example - Fultz was the consensus #1 overall pick. And two years later, consensus said to jettison him for a bucket of balls. But that's not the way the NBA works. If a team evaluates Fultz property and concludes from a physical and psychological standpoint that he's worthy of the #1 overall pick, a team has to stand by that evaluation, even if the first two years don't go as planned. The team has got to figure out how make that investment work because - unlike private equity - the team isn't going to get another opportunity like that again.

Same thing with Harris. On its own, the Harris trade was defensible - Shamet is not a guy that prevents a team from getting a 40+% 3P shooter averaging over 20 ppg. However, to make that trade, PHI had to know that it was basically committed to signing him to a max deal the next year and they had to figure out first whether Harris could play without the ball and what he would do without the number of touches that he's used to.

Getting people's opinions are great. But at some point, an evaluation has to be made, and consensus is often not a great way to evaluate talent and fit.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Butler was critical of Brett Brown during the JJ podcast and pretty much said he decided to leave since there was zero coaching/accountability from the jump.
P.S. Thanks for posting this. Hadn't seen it before. The stuff he says about the Sixers beginning around 23:15 mark is mind-boggling.

For those who haven't listened, one thing Butler says is that he asked to change the offense all year but Brown said no - until the playoffs, where the Sixers started running the ball through Butler. Butler was like, "Yeah, all year Ben has the ball but in the playoffs, we just shift to a new way of playing. If I'm Ben, I'm pissed."

It's amazing how close they came even with such dysfunction. Talent wins.
 

benhogan

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Same thing with Harris. On its own, the Harris trade was defensible - Shamet is not a guy that prevents a team from getting a 40+% 3P shooter averaging over 20 ppg. However, to make that trade, PHI had to know that it was basically committed to signing him to a max deal the next year and they had to figure out first whether Harris could play without the ball and what he would do without the number of touches that he's used to.

Getting people's opinions are great. But at some point, an evaluation has to be made, and consensus is often not a great way to evaluate talent and fit.
Agree on your Groupthink thoughts

BUT it wasn't just Shamet (who was/is a better shooter and cheaper/controllable). It was also 2 Firsts and 2 Seconds. The Harris trade was criticized at the time.
ESPN Trade grades:
Clippers got an A
76ers got a C-

For about 5 minutes it looked decent because of TH's high 3P% that season. BUT once you realized Tobias was a horrible defender and his high 3P% was due to a hot start it looked really crappy. And then doubling down with a MAX contract, he had a negative trade value as soon as that deal was inked.

 

benhogan

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P.S. Thanks for posting this. Hadn't seen it before. The stuff he says about the Sixers beginning around 23:15 mark is mind-boggling.

For those who haven't listened, one thing Butler says is that he asked to change the offense all year but Brown said no - until the playoffs, where the Sixers started running the ball through Butler. Butler was like, "Yeah, all year Ben has the ball but in the playoffs, we just shift to a new way of playing. If I'm Ben, I'm pissed."

It's amazing how close they came even with such dysfunction. Talent wins.
Butler talking about the film session and then deciding at that moment he was OUT is damning of Brown also.
 

JakeRae

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Tatum would be this good even if he had gone to Phoenix or Sacramento. Jaylen is the guy who needed development/environment imo.
I think there is every chance Tatum develops into a young Melo instead of a young Durant/Kawhi in the wrong environment. That‘a obviously still a really good player, but it’s a huge difference. We saw how destructive an offseason of focusing on the wrong shot types was for him when he paired up with Kobe and I don’t know that he develops into an elite defender without great coaching emphasizing to him how important that side of the ball is.
 

lovegtm

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I think there is every chance Tatum develops into a young Melo instead of a young Durant/Kawhi in the wrong environment. That‘a obviously still a really good player, but it’s a huge difference. We saw how destructive an offseason of focusing on the wrong shot types was for him when he paired up with Kobe and I don’t know that he develops into an elite defender without great coaching emphasizing to him how important that side of the ball is.
This would indicate very positive things for the Celtics development pipeline, so I hope you are correct. “Romeo Langford, rookie defensive stopper” is definitely evidence in that direction.
 

The Social Chair

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The Celtics being contenders every year helps as well. Tatum in Phoenix is losing 40 games and developing bad habits. Celtics rookies need to learn defensive rotations to get minutes.
 

DJnVa

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This is a fun read now:


And @jsinger121 for the win:

Best news all day.....extending an aging horford would have been beyond dumb.
 

HowBoutDemSox

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This is a fun read now:


And @jsinger121 for the win:
This one's still in play:
cant wait til we beat Philly in 5
 

lovegtm

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Sigh of relief to see Philly gone. Simmons scares me more than Embiid in some ways, and we got lucky dodging them in the year before they enter Cap Hell.
 

Devizier

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Whatever about Brown, but that Sixers roster is a mess. They’ll need to clean house, but the prospect of being stuck with nothing but the Horford and/or Harris contracts can’t be appealing.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Brown is done but Brand is likely done too. Those seats will be filled but you have to wonder who will take these jobs. There are no obvious fixes and at this point the organization is suspect given all the chatter about Brown and accountability.
 

Euclis20

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Brown is done but Brand is likely done too. Those seats will be filled but you have to wonder who will take these jobs. There are no obvious fixes and at this point the organization is suspect given all the chatter about Brown and accountability.
They have two young all stars signed longterm (those two guys have lots of room to grow) and were dark horse title contenders when the year started. I love shitting on the sixers as much as the next guy, but I don't think they'll have too much trouble finding a decent coach.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I agree they will fill those jobs but imo they need good seasoned people. Given the tough choices the team faces with that roster, its possible that the GM slot, in particular isn't that attractive. Its almost impossible to get talent equal value for what they have to trade.
 

Kliq

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I think right now you could still get a huge haul for Embiid from someone. You might have to take some money back in order to attach Horford or Harris to the deal, but I think you could totally get greater value back in a trade right now. I'm lower on Embiid's ceiling than others, but I'm sure there is a GM out there who views him as a top five asset.
 

RedOctober3829

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deep inside Guido territory
There’s already a hit piece.

Within coaching circles, the anticipation is the Sixers will part ways with head coach Brett Brown in the coming days, league sources told Yahoo Sports. His contract runs through the 2021-22 season.
“I’m not the GM. I don’t make the decisions,” Joel Embiid said Sunday when asked about the future of his coach. “All I know is that we have a great organization and a bunch of great people.”

Players often questioned Brown’s game plan on specific matchups, and there was a lack of trust that permeated the locker room and an inability to hold players accountable, sources said.
Last season there was a concern about the fit of Jimmy Butler, who is now thriving with the Heat and one game away from sweeping the Indiana Pacers.

Butler was lukewarm on re-signing with Philly last offseason and the organization was aware, but the Sixers were still prepared to offer him a max contract if he wouldn’t take any recruiting visits, sources said.

Butler did not agree to that stipulation, sources said, and both sides ended up parting ways. Butler was a force for the Sixers and proved to be their finisher down the stretch, but he wasn’t sold that the team was invested in winning, and his leadership style rubbed some the wrong way at times.

Brown didn’t appreciate how outspoken Butler was with his coaching tactics, and Ben Simmons once took issue with a text message Butler sent in a team group chat that instructed Simmons what not to do in an upcoming game against Brooklyn, sources said.
 

HowBoutDemSox

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I think right now you could still get a huge haul for Embiid from someone. You might have to take some money back in order to attach Horford or Harris to the deal, but I think you could totally get greater value back in a trade right now. I'm lower on Embiid's ceiling than others, but I'm sure there is a GM out there who views him as a top five asset.
Adding even Horford's deal to Embiid means matching ~$55 million in salary, that's a tough number for a single team to swallow, would almost certainly have to be some convoluted multiteam deal to make that work.
 

HowBoutDemSox

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Was this one posted yet?
View: https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1297621418289528835

Woj: Boston beats Philadelphia in Game 4 to sweep the first-round series, and changes are coming for the Sixers. Brett Brown is without internal momentum to return for his eighth season as coach, and a final decision could come soon, sources tell ESPN.

"Brett Brown is without internal momentum to return" is Woj-speak akin to "Boston is tantalized by Robert Williams," right?
 

Swedgin

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The uncertain economics of the league mean that its going to be especially hard to move Horford or Harris even if you attach significant assets. The cap and tax line are going, and who knows what revenue looks like next year. How many owners are going to sign off a deal that adds long term bad money to their books. If whoever is running Philly decides he needs to move those contracts I think its got to be a bad contract swap with an asset or two to balance the scales.
 

Spelunker

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I really hope that Brand isn't gone: if they clean house I'd expect them to make another run at Zarren.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I think right now you could still get a huge haul for Embiid from someone. You might have to take some money back in order to attach Horford or Harris to the deal, but I think you could totally get greater value back in a trade right now. I'm lower on Embiid's ceiling than others, but I'm sure there is a GM out there who views him as a top five asset.
Embiid would have lots of interest but when you factor in the parameters, its not as obvious. He will need to go to a contender, that team will have to have elite NBA ready talent to deal and a have a great fit for Embiid rosterwise and organizationally.

Its hard to see anyone in the East getting him unless the 76ers get a huge premium return so if they move him its likely out West. Everyone can use an Embiid because he is awesome but is there an obvious fit?

I see fits but nothing that jumps out.
 

bosockboy

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Embiid would have lots of interest but when you factor in the parameters, its not as obvious. He will need to go to a contender, that team will have to have elite NBA ready talent to deal and a have a great fit for Embiid rosterwise and organizationally.

Its hard to see anyone in the East getting him unless the 76ers get a huge premium return so if they move him its likely out West. Everyone can use an Embiid because he is awesome but is there an obvious fit?

I see fits but nothing that jumps out.
Warriors. Wiggins/picks.
 

Swedgin

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Embiid would have lots of interest but when you factor in the parameters, its not as obvious. He will need to go to a contender, that team will have to have elite NBA ready talent to deal and a have a great fit for Embiid rosterwise and organizationally.

Its hard to see anyone in the East getting him unless the 76ers get a huge premium return so if they move him its likely out West. Everyone can use an Embiid because he is awesome but is there an obvious fit?

I see fits but nothing that jumps out.
West is hard. Would OKC take him and Horford for Paul and Adams and give up some of their many picks. An SGA, Embiid core makes sense.

East has more options with young talent for Philly. If you're building around Simmons you want to surround him with shooting. What if the Bulls put Lauri, Coby White, this years pick and salary ballast (Sato or Young) on the table.
 

JCizzle

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Was this one posted yet?
View: https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1297621418289528835

Woj: Boston beats Philadelphia in Game 4 to sweep the first-round series, and changes are coming for the Sixers. Brett Brown is without internal momentum to return for his eighth season as coach, and a final decision could come soon, sources tell ESPN.

"Brett Brown is without internal momentum to return" is Woj-speak akin to "Boston is tantalized by Robert Williams," right?
“Without internal momentum”. I feel for Brown, but that’s hilarious. Well done Woj.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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West is hard. Would OKC take him and Horford for Paul and Adams and give up some of their many picks. An SGA, Embiid core makes sense.

East has more options with young talent for Philly. If you're building around Simmons you want to surround him with shooting. What if the Bulls put Lauri, Coby White, this years pick and salary ballast (Sato or Young) on the table.
The Bulls do that for sure but does Philly? It feels light but maybe.

Its tough to see a GS/76ers swap for Embiid. The Warriors would likely consider (note they might think about it but not do it) moving Thompson as part of a package for Simmons but probably not Embiid. Its even harder to see Philly taking any part of Wiggins as a centerpiece. If the 76ers do that, they will probably be in the GM market again in short order.
 

HowBoutDemSox

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The Bulls do that for sure but does Philly? It feels light but maybe.
I’ve proposed variants of this involving Lavine too, though that was before the pick jumped in the lottery, so maybe that changes the calculus. But Lavine and Lauri would pair well with whichever of Simmons or Embiid stays in Philly, and starts to look like a decent return.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I’ve proposed variants of this involving Lavine too, though that was before the pick jumped in the lottery, so maybe that changes the calculus. But Lavine and Lauri would pair well with whichever of Simmons or Embiid stays in Philly, and starts to look like a decent return.
Lavine makes a lot of sense. Would Embiid (or Simmons) agree to go along with Chicago?
 

Jimbodandy

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One of the teams with a million picks makes more sense to me, NOP/OCK. I think that he would be a scary fit for Houston, but not sure how that deal works.