76ers 2019-2020

terrynever

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Terry, you want warm weather, how about Hot-lanta in the Summer for Joel?

Hawks get: Embiid/Harris
Sixers get: Collins/Huerter/Capela/Hunter

Maybe some future picks to spruce it up

Hawks have room to take on salary this summer. This team would be built around Joel/Trae, Harris 3rd banana. Hawks become an instant playoff team. Cam and 2020 draft pick gives them some young players to dream on besides Trae

Sixers get a salary reset (while unloading Harris contract) with a collection of good young players. Team would be young/deep, built around Simmons/Collins w/some 3pt shooters in Huerter/Korkmaz and some defenders in JRich/Hunter.
This makes a lot of sense, Ben. Getting rid of Harris is essential if 76ers are letting Embiid go. Would love to see Simmons directing a modern offense.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Terry, you want warm weather, how about Hot-lanta in the Summer for Joel?

Hawks get: Embiid/Harris
Sixers get: Collins/Huerter/Capela/Hunter

Maybe some future picks to spruce it up

Hawks have room to take on salary this summer. This team would be built around Joel/Trae, Harris 3rd banana. Hawks become an instant playoff team. Cam and 2020 draft pick gives them some young players to dream on besides Trae

Sixers get a salary reset (while unloading Harris contract) with a collection of good young players. Team would be young/deep, built around Simmons/Collins w/some 3pt shooters in Huerter/Korkmaz and some defenders in JRich/Hunter.
Collins would be a really good pairing with SImmons too. Collins is a pretty good 3 point shooter himself. Ironically, he's actually blocking more shots than Embiid this year too. I like that trade for both teams on paper.
 

DannyDarwinism

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Terry, you want warm weather, how about Hot-lanta in the Summer for Joel?

Hawks get: Embiid/Harris
Sixers get: Collins/Huerter/Capela/Hunter

Maybe some future picks to spruce it up

Hawks have room to take on salary this summer. This team would be built around Joel/Trae, Harris 3rd banana. Hawks become an instant playoff team. Cam and 2020 draft pick gives them some young players to dream on besides Trae

Sixers get a salary reset (while unloading Harris contract) with a collection of good young players. Team would be young/deep, built around Simmons/Collins w/some 3pt shooters in Huerter/Korkmaz and some defenders in JRich/Hunter.
That doesn’t work. Hawks don’t really have the contracts to deal for both of those guys.
 
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benhogan

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That doesn’t work for Embiid alone, much less with Harris. Hawks don’t really have the contracts to deal for both of those guys.
Atlanta has room to take $$$ this summer. Harris is having a decent year but that contract :eek:

Collins is criminally underrated. If Atlanta came knocking on the Celtics door for Jaylen they wouldn't get hung up on if they started with Collins.
 

benhogan

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This makes a lot of sense, Ben. Getting rid of Harris is essential if 76ers are letting Embiid go. Would love to see Simmons directing a modern offense.
Simmons is the one you keep.

Which player/contract would you rather unload Harris or Horford?
 

DannyDarwinism

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Atlanta has room to take $$$ this summer. Harris is having a decent year but that contract :eek:

Collins is criminally underrated. If Atlanta came knocking on the Celtics door for Jaylen they wouldn't get hung up on if they started with Collins.
Sorry, I misspoke with the “Embiid” alone part. But JoJo plus Harris is about 60 mil in outgoing, and Capela, Huerter, Hunter and Collins only combining for about 27 mil coming back.

Agree about keeping Simmons, mainly because I think Embiid’s perceived value around the league is higher, and I’d be concerned about his durability as he gets older, given his history and lack of commitment to conditioning.

Given Jimmy Buckets’ Insta-recruiting efforts, something based around Bam, Herro and Iggy would be fun for JoJo alone. In a vacuum, I’d prefer Bam over Collins, though with Simmons, Collins’s shooting might make him preferable. But Herro would be a great fit- Philly fans would love him- and Iggy’d get to retire a Sixer.
 

sezwho

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Simmons is the one you keep.

Which player/contract would you rather unload Harris or Horford?
I would rather see Simmons get traded for Beal and see what Embiid could do with Beal. I just can’t get past the fact Ben won’t shoot.

That paint only stuff won’t work in any configuration, perhaps unless your also 7’2” and unstoppable like Joel.
 

terrynever

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It’s just the Knicks, and it is a home game, but the 76ers look like a team tonight. Harris with 34 points. Horford hit all four of his threes, has 9 assists, 8 rebounds. Leading 115-104 in final minute. Shake Milton hit all five of his threes.
 

BigSoxFan

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It’s just the Knicks, and it is a home game, but the 76ers look like a team tonight. Harris with 34 points. Horford hit all four of his threes, has 9 assists, 8 rebounds. Leading 115-104 in final minute. Shake Milton hit all five of his threes.
I told you that Embiid and Simmons are the problem!
 

HomeRunBaker

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I would rather see Simmons get traded for Beal and see what Embiid could do with Beal. I just can’t get past the fact Ben won’t shoot.

That paint only stuff won’t work in any configuration, perhaps unless your also 7’2” and unstoppable like Joel.
I don’t understand the fascination with needing Simmons to shoot from the perimeter when he is so difficult to defend off the dribble and in the paint. He’s a Top-20 player without perimeter shooting despite having an awfully constructed roster that doesn’t play to his strengths. We saw Simmons work post-ASB last year with how he creates for shooters that makes him lethal. What am I missing?
 
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HomeRunBaker

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I just can't get past the fact that Beal won't play defense. Simmons over Beal all day long.
You won’t find many players putting in the effort to defend at a high level when they are carrying the entire offensive burden on a lottery team. The motions Ray Allen put in defensively when he was a Sonic were epic but he was always capable. Beal would be fine in a different setting and a different role on the team.
 
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Smokey Joe

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I don’t understand the fascination with needing Simmons to shoot from the perimeter when he is so difficult to defend off the dribble and in the paint. He’s a Top-20 player without perimeter shooting despite having an awfully constructed roster that doesn’t play to his strengths. We saw Simmons work post-ASB last year with how he creates for shooters that makes him lethal. What am I missing?
In a league full of players who work their butts off to try to improve, it is fascinating to see a young player not try and take a basic step that would vastly improve his game. It would move him from a top 30 player to a top 10 player and turn him from someone who is relatively easy to game plan for (if you have the personnel to do it) to someone who has the gravity to stress and warp opposing defenses. It is fascinating to watch the coach/player relationship deteriorate when the coach asks a player to do something that is well within their abilities and they refuse to do it. It is fascinating to watch a team fracture and deteriorate when one of the team leaders refuses to play to the best of their abilities and makes everyone else’s job harder and team success less likely.
I am also fascinated to see if this team manages to pull itself together in the playoffs and make it past the second round. As it stands, I kinda doubt it. And if they fail, I am not sure that I would trade Embiid and build around Simmons.
 

lovegtm

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Sorry, I misspoke with the “Embiid” alone part. But JoJo plus Harris is about 60 mil in outgoing, and Capela, Huerter, Hunter and Collins only combining for about 27 mil coming back.
...
Hogan's point was that Atlanta is way under the cap. They can absorb the extra salary no problem without having to match.

I don’t understand the fascination with needing Simmons to shoot from the perimeter when he is so difficult to defend off the dribble and in the paint. He’s a Top-20 player without perimeter shooting despite having an awfully constructed roster that doesn’t play to his strengths. We saw Simmons work post-ASB last year with how he creates for shooters that makes him lethal. What am I missing?
I don't get this either. He'd be crazy good in a spaced-out system. The shot he needs to add isn't a 3 either: it's that little fallaway that Giannis is working on. That's an easier shot to add if you have suspect form but decent touch, and it fills the role of stopping guys from just cutting you off from the rim. Simmons is also such a good passer that he would find a lot of guys when going up for that shot.

The Bucks quality feels inevitable now, but they were a 7-seed just 2 years ago, before they specifically built the roster and coaching around Giannis. Simmons isn't at that level, but he'd get a similar boost from non-dysfunctionality.
 

benhogan

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But JoJo plus Harris is about 60 mil in outgoing, and Capela, Huerter, Hunter and Collins only combining for about 27 mil coming back.

Agree about keeping Simmons, mainly because I think Embiid’s perceived value around the league is higher, and I’d be concerned about his durability as he gets older, given his history and lack of commitment to conditioning.

Given Jimmy Buckets’ Insta-recruiting efforts, something based around Bam, Herro and Iggy would be fun for JoJo alone. In a vacuum, I’d prefer Bam over Collins, though with Simmons, Collins’s shooting might make him preferable. But Herro would be a great fit- Philly fans would love him- and Iggy’d get to retire a Sixer.
Parsons and Teague expire. Atlanta has only committed $58MM to next season so they have the cap room to accept the difference this summer (along with only a handful of other teams)

Harris is negative value with that contract. Philly may not want to enter the repeater tax hell with this group being so uncompetitive. Atlanta may look at the Harris contract as a plus since they have space and there isn't much talent on the FA market.

Needless to say, none of this will happen. Elton Brand isn't going to admit the Harris error or deal an All-NBA player in Embiid.

Celtics fans can relate to the Sixers fans' pain after last season. Sometimes it helps to wipe some of the slate clean.

Sorry terrynever.
 
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terrynever

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Parsons and Teague expire. Atlanta has only committed $58MM to next season so they have the cap room to accept the difference this summer (along with only a handful of other teams)

Harris is negative value with that contract. Philly may not want to enter the repeater tax hell with this group being so uncompetitive. Atlanta may look at the Harris contract as a plus since they have space and there isn't much talent on the FA market.

Needless to say, none of this will happen. Elton Brand isn't going to admit the Harris error or deal an All-NBA player in Embiid.

Celtics fans can relate to the Sixers fans' pain after last season. Sometimes it helps to wipe some of the slate clean.

Sorry terrynever.
No problem. The trade rumor mill is fun to discuss, even if prematurely, but we all know nothing will happen until June. Meanwhile, Miami has lost seven of nine. The fourth seed is still up for grabs. Simmons and Embiid could both return in a month or less, fresh for a late surge into the playoffs. Philly’s schedule is pretty tame. The 76ers should be able to tread water until the big boys return.
The overall problem remains. But first we have to play out this season.
 
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I don’t understand the fascination with needing Simmons to shoot from the perimeter when he is so difficult to defend off the dribble and in the paint. He’s a Top-20 player without perimeter shooting despite having an awfully constructed roster that doesn’t play to his strengths. We saw Simmons work post-ASB last year with how he creates for shooters that makes him lethal. What am I missing?
Ben Simmons' refusal to shoot isn't an issue 80-90% of the time, but the times it is a problem happen to be the most important ones - like games against good teams and late-game situations. He's incredible when they're blowing out the Suns on a Wednesday night, but in a close game against Miami, he' can't be the guy you hand the ball to in crunch time. This is the fundamental problem with the Sixers and the reason why they've been so disappointing this year. Him not having a diverse offensive strategy, like even just a mid-range jumper, forces other players who aren't as good to carry the load late in games because he's useless when the defense tightens up and plays disciplined.

As he is now, Ben SImmons is great at carrying a crappy team to 35-40 wins and he'll fill up the stat sheet in the process. He crushes teams that don't have someone as big as him or teams who aren't smart defensive teams. But the truly elite stuff, like making a team a contender, he actually makes more difficult. I push back that he's a top 20 player because he's so difficult to construct a team around. What other NBA star could he even play with successfully? The Golden State guys, yeah, he'd be a great fit there because they're happy to play off ball. Brad Beal, sure. But I'm looking through the list and he would limit every other star to some degree because he has no value off-ball. If he played with LeBron James, we'd be sitting here saying the same things about how he doesn't fit with Embiid. Having a multitude of skills matter when you're a star because it's so crucial when you're playing with other great players and Simmons doesn't have that.

The fascination comes from the fact that Ben Simmons is, what, a top 5% NBA athlete? And if he did what Jaylen Brown did, someone who was maybe rawer as a prospect coming into league, in terms of working to improve his shot, he'd be one of the 5 the best players in the NBA, if not the best, and carrying Philly to the Championship. Instead, we're talking about trading away one of the best Bigs in the NBA who can defend at an all world level, shoot the three, post up, etc. all because Ben Simmons has nowhere to go but the dunker's spot when he doesn't have the ball.
 

DannyDarwinism

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Parsons and Teague expire. Atlanta has only committed $58MM to next season so they have the cap room to accept the difference this summer (along with only a handful of other teams)

Harris is negative value with that contract. Philly may not want to enter the repeater tax hell with this group being so uncompetitive. Atlanta may look at the Harris contract as a plus since they have space and there isn't much talent on the FA market.

Needless to say, none of this will happen. Elton Brand isn't going to admit the Harris error or deal an All-NBA player in Embiid.

Celtics fans can relate to the Sixers fans' pain after last season. Sometimes it helps to wipe some of the slate clean.

Sorry terrynever.
Ah, as you said in your initial post and reply, my bad for not reading more carefully.

You’re right that it won’t happen, but that’s a really interesting proposal. Huerter can obviously shoot, but he can also provide the secondary play making they’ve sorely lacked and play some D to boot. Collins helps spread the floor, and Simmons helps make up for his defensive deficiencies. Hunter you hope develops into a Tatum stopper. Typically the side getting the nickels back is the clear loser, but that’s potentially a really fun team On the flip side, Trae and Embiid should be a great fit, Harris is who he is, but Reddish has come on a bit lately.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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As he is now, Ben SImmons is great at carrying a crappy team to 35-40 wins and he'll fill up the stat sheet in the process. He crushes teams that don't have someone as big as him or teams who aren't smart defensive teams. But the truly elite stuff, like making a team a contender, he actually makes more difficult. I push back that he's a top 20 player because he's so difficult to construct a team around.
I don't disagree with your general idea, but Simmons was four bounces way from playing the ECF last year and other than his rookie season when he didn't play at all, his teams have won at a better than .600 clip.

He's pretty f'ng good.
 

Kliq

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No one is arguing that Simmons isn't a very good NBA player. I am saying that his refusal to even take the occasional jumpshot has stunted his offensive growth and is reflective of a very questionable institutional atmosphere in Philadelphia that they haven't gotten Simmons to take a few elbow shots per game.
 
May 14, 2015
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But in that Toronto series, he had a 11.6/7.3/4.9 slash line, well below his regular season averages.

Let me rephrase my point. If you were to start a team with one player, Ben Simmons would be at the top of the list. He can do so much and if he's the focal point of your offense, he can tee up shooters all day. The floor for that team would high. Jaylen Brown is not as good as Ben SImmons. That said, if you were adding to an already good team, you might rather have Jaylen Brown because he play on or off ball and fit into any system in the league because of it. Would the Lakers be better if you swapped out Rondo for Ben Simmons or Jaylen Brown?

Another example: Luka Doncic is awesome. If you replaced Kristaps with Ben Simmons, Luka Doncic would be less awesome because he wouldn't have the same room to operate and he'd have one less option to pass to when he gets in the lane. And on a team where Luka Doncic is your primary ballhandler, why would you want Ben Simmons handling the ball if he can't create his own shot? I guess he could play the Dwight Powell role, but then how valuable is that really? The same could be said if you replace Luka with Giannis, Harden, Davis, Kawhi, Tatum, Lillard, etc. How can a player be that great if he lessens the impact of other great players when they're on the floor with him?

He's the snake that eats its own tail. Since he can't (won't) shoot, he can't be the primary ballhandler on a championship caliber team and that same problem is exacerbated when he's playing off of a better ballhandler/shot creator. We say that the Philly team is poorly constructed, but the only reason that is the case is because they have a 6'10" point guard who has extremely specific needs when it comes to the team around him.

*Edit for grammar
 

HomeRunBaker

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Ben Simmons' refusal to shoot isn't an issue 80-90% of the time, but the times it is a problem happen to be the most important ones - like games against good teams and late-game situations. He's incredible when they're blowing out the Suns on a Wednesday night, but in a close game against Miami, he' can't be the guy you hand the ball to in crunch time. This is the fundamental problem with the Sixers and the reason why they've been so disappointing this year. Him not having a diverse offensive strategy, like even just a mid-range jumper, forces other players who aren't as good to carry the load late in games because he's useless when the defense tightens up and plays disciplined.

As he is now, Ben SImmons is great at carrying a crappy team to 35-40 wins and he'll fill up the stat sheet in the process. He crushes teams that don't have someone as big as him or teams who aren't smart defensive teams. But the truly elite stuff, like making a team a contender, he actually makes more difficult. I push back that he's a top 20 player because he's so difficult to construct a team around. What other NBA star could he even play with successfully? The Golden State guys, yeah, he'd be a great fit there because they're happy to play off ball. Brad Beal, sure. But I'm looking through the list and he would limit every other star to some degree because he has no value off-ball. If he played with LeBron James, we'd be sitting here saying the same things about how he doesn't fit with Embiid. Having a multitude of skills matter when you're a star because it's so crucial when you're playing with other great players and Simmons doesn't have that.

The fascination comes from the fact that Ben Simmons is, what, a top 5% NBA athlete? And if he did what Jaylen Brown did, someone who was maybe rawer as a prospect coming into league, in terms of working to improve his shot, he'd be one of the 5 the best players in the NBA, if not the best, and carrying Philly to the Championship. Instead, we're talking about trading away one of the best Bigs in the NBA who can defend at an all world level, shoot the three, post up, etc. all because Ben Simmons has nowhere to go but the dunker's spot when he doesn't have the ball.
This sounds all great about Simmons being a front runner who is terrible at finishing games.......except his Clutch stats per 82games.com show the opposite in how he is a significant positive in these game situations. I only took a quick glance so if anyone has more data or information this would be worthwhile to discuss.
 

terrynever

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I am going to go back to following the playoff race. Philly would like to finish fourth but sixth is a distinct possibility. Boston really needs to overtake Toronto for the 2 seed, and looks like they will, based on recent efforts.

A Philly-Boston first round is not good for either of our teams.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I don’t understand the fascination with needing Simmons to shoot from the perimeter when he is so difficult to defend off the dribble and in the paint. He’s a Top-20 player without perimeter shooting despite having an awfully constructed roster that doesn’t play to his strengths. We saw Simmons work post-ASB last year with how he creates for shooters that makes him lethal. What am I missing?
It's because he's paired with Embiid. In an alternate universe where Ben Simmons is playing with KAT, no one is talking about it.
 

Cesar Crespo

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No one is arguing that Simmons isn't a very good NBA player. I am saying that his refusal to even take the occasional jumpshot has stunted his offensive growth and is reflective of a very questionable institutional atmosphere in Philadelphia that they haven't gotten Simmons to take a few elbow shots per game.
At some point it falls on the player. They can't force Simmons to shoot the ball, he has to do it. What can they really do if Simmons refuses? Bench him? Seems counterproductive.
 

lovegtm

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At some point it falls on the player. They can't force Simmons to shoot the ball, he has to do it. What can they really do if Simmons refuses? Bench him? Seems counterproductive.
I’m kind of a Simmons stan, but if he’s as stubborn as that (and it seems possible), that’s a really big red flag. Complete opposite of a growth mindset.
 

Kliq

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At some point it falls on the player. They can't force Simmons to shoot the ball, he has to do it. What can they really do if Simmons refuses? Bench him? Seems counterproductive.
Yes. Tell Ben that in the first five minutes of the game you want him to take a shot outside of the paint or he is going to sit. If he can't just do that on one possession, when they are leaving him wide open in a random game in February, then as lovegtm says, it is a big red flag for Simmons as a player. Simmons will be a better player if he can become semi-respectable from outside ten feet, if you can unlock that, and for some reason that seems wayyyyyyy more difficult than for any other player, it outweighs any short-term issues you might have with benching him for refusing to shoot.
 

Cesar Crespo

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and for some reason that seems wayyyyyyy more difficult than for any other player
Which to me suggests it's not organizational and it's Ben. If he really is that stubborn, and they benched him, he would probably request to be traded. I guess you could say "good riddance" but some team will be happy to build around Ben and his flaws.
 

lovegtm

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Yes. Tell Ben that in the first five minutes of the game you want him to take a shot outside of the paint or he is going to sit. If he can't just do that on one possession, when they are leaving him wide open in a random game in February, then as lovegtm says, it is a big red flag for Simmons as a player. Simmons will be a better player if he can become semi-respectable from outside ten feet, if you can unlock that, and for some reason that seems wayyyyyyy more difficult than for any other player, it outweighs any short-term issues you might have with benching him for refusing to shoot.
The bolded is what bugs me about Simmons. Take Giannis. He has atrocious form from 3, and has been a horrible shooter from there his whole career, despite being wide open. But now he's been putting in the work on that little 10-15 foot fadeaway, and it's becoming a very dangerous shot that doesn't require the same fitting-together-of-moving-parts that a longer shot does.

Ben Simmons is an insanely coordinated guy with good touch. I can't understand why, unlike basically anyone else with that profile, even bad shooters from longer range, it's so much harder for him to add this. It has to be some kind of headcase/pride thing from what I can tell.
 

Euclis20

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The bolded is what bugs me about Simmons. Take Giannis. He has atrocious form from 3, and has been a horrible shooter from there his whole career, despite being wide open. But now he's been putting in the work on that little 10-15 foot fadeaway, and it's becoming a very dangerous shot that doesn't require the same fitting-together-of-moving-parts that a longer shot does.

Ben Simmons is an insanely coordinated guy with good touch. I can't understand why, unlike basically anyone else with that profile, even bad shooters from longer range, it's so much harder for him to add this. It has to be some kind of headcase/pride thing from what I can tell.
The thing about Giannis, he had hit more 3 pointers by his 4th career game (3) than Simmons currently has hit in his entire career (2), now in year 4. There are bad shooters, there are terrible shooters, there are historically awful shooters, and then there is Ben Simmons. He doesn't need to shoot to be a top 20 player, but to be a great scorer, he definitely does. At the end of the day this is a guy who averaging 16.8 ppg and is often useless in the half court. This puts a hard ceiling on his career. I can only assume he's hitting <10% of his outside shots in practice, because the alternative is pretty damn ugly.
 

lovegtm

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The thing about Giannis, he had hit more 3 pointers by his 4th career game (3) than Simmons currently has hit in his entire career (2), now in year 4. There are bad shooters, there are terrible shooters, there are historically awful shooters, and then there is Ben Simmons. He doesn't need to shoot to be a top 20 player, but to be a great scorer, he definitely does. At the end of the day this is a guy who averaging 16.8 ppg and is often useless in the half court. This puts a hard ceiling on his career. I can only assume he's hitting <10% of his outside shots in practice, because the alternative is pretty damn ugly.
Giannis is a very bad 3-point shooter, both statistically and eye-test. His 3-point shot adds basically nothing to his game, since defenses are almost totally indifferent to it and it's such a win when he shoots from there. If Simmons were to take and make those same 3s at a similar rate, it wouldn't change much if anything about his career trajectory.

Giannis' in-the-lane jumper, however, fits in a lot more with the other stuff he does, and is probably easier to execute with his form. This is the kind of thing that would do a lot to raise Simmons' ceiling, especially when he could combine it with his passing and up-and-unders to add equity beyond the shot itself.
 

Euclis20

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It's less about what it does for his game (he's close to a career high in 3p% at .314, and it's about half of his 2p% at .625) and more about his willingness to even try it. I'm not sure what it has to be to get teams to respect it (LeBron has gotten plenty of respect hitting 33-35% of his 3s), but Simmons' complete unwillingness to even attempt them (considering his coach goes to the media basically begging him to shoot) says one of two things:

-He can't hit them at a remotely respectable rate in practice.
-He's too scared/proud/stubborn to shoot them during real games.

These are both terrible, and a huge difference between Simmons and other "bad" shooters, including Giannis.
 

lovegtm

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It's less about what it does for his game (he's close to a career high in 3p% at .314, and it's about half of his 2p% at .625) and more about his willingness to even try it. I'm not sure what it has to be to get teams to respect it (LeBron has gotten plenty of respect hitting 33-35% of his 3s), but Simmons' complete unwillingness to even attempt them (considering his coach goes to the media basically begging him to shoot) says one of two things:

-He can't hit them at a remotely respectable rate in practice.
-He's too scared/proud/stubborn to shoot them during real games.

These are both terrible, and a huge difference between Simmons and other "bad" shooters, including Giannis.
There are three different topics being conflated here.

Topic 1: is Ben Simmons stubborn, and is that a problem for his career prospects? I agree with you and others here that it may be a serious problem.

Topic 2: should Ben Simmons be working on shooting in general? I'd say yes, particularly shorter turnarounds.

Topic 3: do 3s help Giannis and would they help Simmons? I'd argue no (unless Giannis gets them to better levels). LeBron gets some respect from 3 because 33-36% with light to high contests is a very, very different animal from 28-31% with zero pressure at all (which is what Giannis has). If you're shooting the latter, there are no ancillary benefits to your 3. It doesn't create higher expected value than other options, and it doesn't open up fouls or passes the way shots in the paint do. Incidentally, Giannis seems to agree, which is why he's working so hard on that intermediate turnaround.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Ben Simmons Average Shot Distance
17/18: 5.5 ft 21.3% of his shots were 10ft+
18/19: 4.1 ft 10.3% of his shots were from 10 ft+
19/20 3.8 ft 5.9% of his shots are from 10 ft+

What in the actual...
 

Euclis20

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There are three different topics being conflated here.

Topic 1: is Ben Simmons stubborn, and is that a problem for his career prospects? I agree with you and others here that it may be a serious problem.

Topic 2: should Ben Simmons be working on shooting in general? I'd say yes, particularly shorter turnarounds.

Topic 3: do 3s help Giannis and would they help Simmons? I'd argue no (unless Giannis gets them to better levels). LeBron gets some respect from 3 because 33-36% with light to high contests is a very, very different animal from 28-31% with zero pressure at all (which is what Giannis has). If you're shooting the latter, there are no ancillary benefits to your 3. It doesn't create higher expected value than other options, and it doesn't open up fouls or passes the way shots in the paint do. Incidentally, Giannis seems to agree, which is why he's working so hard on that intermediate turnaround.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but are we sure this is the case? If Giannis takes a pass behind the arc and squares up to the basket for a shot fake, no one is doing a hard closeout but anecdotally it usually results in the defender taking a step in his direction, which gives Giannis a slight benefit when driving and creating for others. Simmons gets no such hedge from the defender were he to do the same.
 

lovegtm

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I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but are we sure this is the case? If Giannis takes a pass behind the arc and squares up to the basket for a shot fake, no one is doing a hard closeout but anecdotally it usually results in the defender taking a step in his direction, which gives Giannis a slight benefit when driving and creating for others. Simmons gets no such hedge from the defender were he to do the same.
It’s possible Giannis gains a very very slight advantage.

I like to think of attention/focus as one of the scarcest resources in the world, and one that has to be apportioned very thoughtfully by each individual, so my instinct is to focus on which addition to Simmons’ game would give him the most bang for his buck.

It’s interesting to me that Giannis seems to have made a similar calculation this year, after years of trying (mostly unsuccessfully) to add a long-range shot.
 

Euclis20

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It’s possible Giannis gains a very very slight advantage.

I like to think of attention/focus as one of the scarcest resources in the world, and one that has to be apportioned very thoughtfully by each individual, so my instinct is to focus on which addition to Simmons’ game would give him the most bang for his buck.

It’s interesting to me that Giannis seems to have made a similar calculation this year, after years of trying (mostly unsuccessfully) to add a long-range shot.
He may have perfected that mid range shot which makes him even harder to stop, but he's taking 4.7 3PAs per game, almost triple his career average heading into the season. He certainly hasn't stopped trying to add that long range shot.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but are we sure this is the case? If Giannis takes a pass behind the arc and squares up to the basket for a shot fake, no one is doing a hard closeout but anecdotally it usually results in the defender taking a step in his direction, which gives Giannis a slight benefit when driving and creating for others. Simmons gets no such hedge from the defender were he to do the same.
That's still far preferable to the other option of him getting within 3 feet and hitting over 75% of his shots. Of course the same can be said of Ben Simmons, although he hits only 72%.

Of course, 35.8% of Giannis's FGA come from 10ft+ and his average shot distance is 9.8 ft. That's a far cry from 3.8 ft and 5.9%. That makes playing Simmons with someone like Capela or TL or any other "can't shoot" big pretty much impossible.

Let's build a generic team around Ben Simmons.
C: It's almost a must whoever fills this role has to at least be an average 3 point shooter at decent volume. Someone like Brook Lopez or if you want to aim higher, John Collins or higher than that, KAT.
PF: Probably the same thing as your center except you'd want a decent 3 point shooter at one of the two positions. Collins may work here instead of C. Tatum would be next to perfect.
SF: Ben Simmons.
SG: Pure 3 and D player. The 3 part is more important than the D part. Ideally you find a guy like Redick who can play defense but as long as he shoots like Redick, it's fine.
PG: Not Simmons. Someone who is a competent PG and a good volume 3 point shooter. Someone like Kemba.


Simmons would be more the point forward but due to the lack of his outside game, would mostly stay inside which would require you to have a play maker who stays around the perimeter.

TL-DR, basically you surround Simmons with shooters and a good playmaker who's willing to play off the ball more. Trae Young would be bad, Chris Paul would be bad. Someone who isn't quite the passer they are so you aren't losing a lot of value although it worked ok with Paul and Harden so maybe.
 

lovegtm

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That's still far preferable to the other option of him getting within 3 feet and hitting over 75% of his shots. Of course the same can be said of Ben Simmons, although he hits only 72%.

Of course, 35.8% of Giannis's FGA come from 10ft+ and his average shot distance is 9.8 ft. That's a far cry from 3.8 ft and 5.9%. That makes playing Simmons with someone like Capela or TL or any other "can't shoot" big pretty much impossible.

Let's build a generic team around Ben Simmons.
C: It's almost a must whoever fills this role has to at least be an average 3 point shooter at decent volume. Someone like Brook Lopez or if you want to aim higher, John Collins or higher than that, KAT.
PF: Probably the same thing as your center except you'd want a decent 3 point shooter at one of the two positions. Collins may work here instead of C. Tatum would be next to perfect.
SF: Ben Simmons.
SG: Pure 3 and D player. The 3 part is more important than the D part. Ideally you find a guy like Redick who can play defense but as long as he shoots like Redick, it's fine.
PG: Not Simmons. Someone who is a competent PG and a good volume 3 point shooter. Someone like Kemba.


Simmons would be more the point forward but due to the lack of his outside game, would mostly stay inside which would require you to have a play maker who stays around the perimeter.

TL-DR, basically you surround Simmons with shooters and a good playmaker who's willing to play off the ball more. Trae Young would be bad, Chris Paul would be bad. Someone who isn't quite the passer they are so you aren't losing a lot of value although it worked ok with Paul and Harden so maybe.
Yeah, this shows some of the challenges of building around Simmons.

The constraints you could relax to take advantage of his abilities and make it easier to build a roster would be:
PF: Ben Simmons can play PF in the modern NBA with 0 problem whatsoever.
C: Because Simmons is big and a good defender, you could get away with a smaller banger (PJ Tucker high end, Grant Williams low end) here and switch a lot. Simmons himself could also play center in death lineups, but I understand why that would have to be limited to save him the pounding.

When you go through this exercise, you quickly realize that Philly's roster construction is utterly awful for what makes Simmons unique and valuable.
 

HomeRunBaker

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It's because he's paired with Embiid. In an alternate universe where Ben Simmons is playing with KAT, no one is talking about it.
Oh I agree and that’s what I’m saying. Simmons gets shit on so much when the way defenses defend him actually is advantageous to Simmons and the offense. Playing off Rondo a decade ago was effective as it forced him to shoot or play 4 on 5. When I watch defenders play off Simmons I cringe as it allows him the ability to get to his spot off the dribble to force doubles (where the lack of shooters this year hurts him badly) or he creates an angle to attack the rim.
 

terrynever

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Sixers will re-evaluate Simmons’ pinched nerve in lower back in three weeks. This linked article suggests that an extensive rehab could follow. And a pinched nerve is usually a sign of a bigger problem, possibly a disc.

So, tonight’s lineup is likely what we will see in the playoffs, assuming everyone can stay healthy. Embiid, Horford, Harris, Richardson and Shake Milton at the point. Sixth seed? Fifth seed?

As a traditional PG, Shake may help Philly move the ball better. These final five weeks represent a last effort to find offensive cohesiveness. Dream on.

https://www.inquirer.com/sixers/philadelphia-sixers-ben-simmons--20200311.html
 

lovegtm

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Sixers will re-evaluate Simmons’ pinched nerve in lower back in three weeks. This linked article suggests that an extensive rehab could follow. And a pinched nerve is usually a sign of a bigger problem, possibly a disc.

So, tonight’s lineup is likely what we will see in the playoffs, assuming everyone can stay healthy. Embiid, Horford, Harris, Richardson and Shake Milton at the point. Sixth seed? Fifth seed?

As a traditional PG, Shake may help Philly move the ball better. These final five weeks represent a last effort to find offensive cohesiveness. Dream on.

https://www.inquirer.com/sixers/philadelphia-sixers-ben-simmons--20200311.html
Who wins a tiebreaker between them and Indiana for the 6th seed? We may well end up just having the playoffs start from where the standings are right now.
 

Euclis20

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Who wins a tiebreaker between them and Indiana for the 6th seed? We may well end up just having the playoffs start from where the standings are right now.
The first tiebreaker is head to head record and Indy is 2-1, so if this is it for regular season play, Indy comes in 5th and Philly 6th.

Not that it matters in any way, but their 4th and final meeting would have been Saturday,
 

lovegtm

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The first tiebreaker is head to head record and Indy is 2-1, so if this is it for regular season play, Indy comes in 5th and Philly 6th.

Not that it matters in any way, but their 4th and final meeting would have been Saturday,
I mean, it matters in some ways. This too shall pass, and now we’re likely looking at Sixers-Celtics in the first round.

That said, Simmons’ prognosis hasn’t been great, so that takes a lot of sting out of the matchup.
 

benhogan

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HomeRunBaker

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the full 1hr version is good.

Butler just threw Brett Brown under the bus. Nothing said during video sessions, yikes...Ben Simmons, use in the playoffs, JB said Ben was PO'd.

I can't recall who gave me 5000% odds that Simmons wouldn't be dealt this offseason, but he better recalibrate his oddsmaking...
Brown would go in a snap before Simmons if the choice were between the two.