It will be hilarious when the Lakers need to pitch in Kuzma and another #1 in order to get the Pelicans to comply.
72 Suburbs in Search of a City: Anthony Davis to Los Angeles Lakers
- Thread starter RedOctober3829
- Start date
Given the way the Lakers/Klutch/LeBron destroyed the Pelican's season, I cant imagine any other team in the league is too interested in helping them out (without extracting something above "fair market value" in return, anyway). I think the Lakers are rapidly approaching (if they are not already there) Jerry Jones/Dan Snyder in 2012 territory, when the Cowboys and Redskins got whacked for a violation of unwritten salary cap rules and none of the other owners batted an eye. I do think they will get Davis to waive the trade kicker, and they'll make it up with "marketing incentives" or some such BS, similar to ARod's Yankees' deal.
Yes, along with the White Christmas postcard from Satan.lovegtm, did you get your mea culpa from HRB?
Well, for one because LeBron owns the production company. It isn't even hidden through Rich Paul that SpringHill Entertainment was founded by LeBron and Maverick Carter.
Where has there been confirmation that Pelinka, a longtime successful power agent, doesn't understand the salary cap or that he didn't ask AD to waive his trade kicker? To believe this is ludicrous imo.
He could have asked Davis a thousand times to waive it.....why would AD do so? He knows he has leverage for the Lakers to pull the trigger and the Pelicans have ZERO incentive to push the deal back to the 30th thus affecting their ability to control the #4 pick that they want to move. They can't sell the pick while holding their trade partner hostage until July 30th while not allowing that player to participate in the teams summer league and practices. You seem to think because the Pelicans and Davis didn't simply give up their rights that Pelinka didn't understand the legalities of his profession. He HAD to get the deal done first to secure Davis and work on the other stuff later......that is the only way the Lakers end up with Davis.
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FYI - SpringHill is a disaster. I know several industry vets that have had to go in after they screwed up production.
I won't go into the particulars, but one was a major one that was really simple. They f--ked it up and were removed after 4 months. Their reputation in LA isn't great.
Good luck to them in the evolving film business, which is 10x harder than their TV deals.
“Production company” is a term so broad it’s meaningless. They are not financing this film, I can guarantee you that. Warner Bros is financing it. Lebron’s company is supplying lebron, other talent (including Davis, I guess?), and “creative direction”. They are not controlling the production budget, WB is. So why would Warners pay Anthony Davis $4 million again?
I’m not sold on the idea that Pelinka being a successful power agent necessarily means that he must be an expert capologist. That wasn’t his charge. And with Magic having just left the Lakers, this is literally the first offseason where he’s had any sort of reaponsibility over managing a cap.
The reports are saying that the Lakers have attempted to push the trade date out since it was originally announced. It doesn’t make too much sense that he’d continue doing so after already attempting and failing in the previously consummated trade. I think the simple answer here is growing pains for a brand new GM.
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Ramona Shelbourne said on ESPN that the LAL have no capologist or anyone tasked with that.
Even if they did, are we sure Pelinka would have listened to him if it meant jeopardizing the deal? We have already heard the story of how Pelinka isolated his scouts and overruled them on draft night last year. It's not a stretch to think he'd just drown out a lower-level guy that was objecting to the parameters of the deal for cap reasons.
I was going to post my wish that Magic was still running things, but maybe this Pelinka kid can screw things up all by himself. a 42 win team with no first round pick or cap space would be acceptable.
Whoever is supplying and paying for the talent.....LeBron has been donned with the responsibility of providing the cast and a budget to do so. I guess we will wait and see if Davis ultimately waives his no-trade clause. If he doesn't than there obviously is no connection and if he does you'd have trouble convincing me that LeBron wink winking AD movie spots to build his brand didn't play a (major) role.
I don't feel there was any expert analysis of the cap and CBA to recognize what could and couldn't occur in this case. The other thing is that an agents job is to essentially be a capologist as they are working deals as well as the GM's…...probably a better one than a teams GM who can simply hire a guy. The Pelicans held all the leverage knowing that the Lakers had all the pressure in the world on them to get a deal done, Griffin set a hard deadline to do so a week prior to the draft and Pelinka HAD to get a deal done or else enter this draft with Ball, the #4 and a damaged goods soon-to-be FA......and not AD. I don't understand how anyone can call closing this deal a bad move when the alternatives were simply horrendous. I already addressed my feelings on pushing the trade date back.....why would the Pelicans EVER agree to that prior to the draft that would minimize their options with the pick?
I think at some point I posited that maybe just maybe Maglinka wasn't the problem but Magic was and Pelinka would be semi-competent with Magic gone. This shows that, nope, they were both incompetent and one of them still has a job.
I don't know anything about SpringHill and all that...but the Lakers better hope LeBron and Rich Paul can become de facto GMs. It may look bad, but they're semi-competent.
Your analysis of the trade would be correct if the Pelinka said "Any chance we can do this on 7/30?" and the Pelicans said "No", or "Sure, but we'll need 5 more pieces from the cupboard".
Instead, the question was never asked. And if a team's GM is relying on an agents capologist to do the cap analysis for them, then that GM should be fired. And there is no reason a team cannot hire a capologist as good as an agent; the cap isn't that hard to understand if you have someone on it full time.
This is insane and somehow totally believable. The fact that Ramona is reporting it maybe signals that Jeanie is fed up with Pelinka?
Someone named Marshall Rader is listed as the LA Lakers capologist. Supposedly he came from the Spurs and is very highly regarded. Not sure why Ramona would say that they weren't employing anyone in that capacity. It's much more likely that Pelinka just didn't bother to check in on the cap ramifications.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/marshall-rader-6b385618/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/marshall-rader-6b385618/
I 100% do NOT believe this. How does Shelbourne or anyone know what was said during these negotiations? My guess is that this was a non-starter from the get go for New Orleans which to me is the obvious case here.
If the cap isn't that hard to understand and this understanding has been a large part of Pelinka's previous responsibilities.....why would you need to hire someone to tell you things you already know? I am not saying this is certain but I'm guessing Pelinka feels he is proficient in the numbers to execute deals using the same information someone else would be giving him.
Because she's a Lakers mouthpiece?
If your POV is no reporter listened into every single phone call between the 2 teams, then, okay, but then a lot of reporting is useless.
Ok, well this is all beginning to make sense now......Shelbourne seems to have an axe to grind with Pelinka here. So let's say Pelinka "bothered" to check with the capologist......now what is his next move, to kill the deal?
That mouthpiece may be the one who isn't competent. Reporting is fine but when it begins to not make sense (like Pelinka not understanding the CBA) then red flags should be raised. Frankly, i'm surprised everyone here is buying all her BS.
If we're assuming wink/nod deals involving LeBron's money, isn't the easiest way to compensate AD for waiving his trade kicker for his agent to reduce his fees by some amount over the next few years? If AD has something like 10 years of max contract salaries in his future, that's easy; no one would know; and there wouldn't be some outlier cameo appearance fee compared to others in the same movie.
No, but surely there's a price for it. What's another draft pick at that point? A three-headed monster is far better than what they have now. The fact that they DIDN'T find a deal which gave them the cap space is what makes me believe they weren't exactly thinking about it.
Where did she say that? I'm not finding that anywhere.
She was on TV yesterday and specifically mentioned that they have one at about 4 minutes of the clip below
https://twitter.com/HPbasketball/status/1141501946274054144
She didn't say that as far as I can tell, she said exactly what Woj and others have said, that the Lakers didn't ask for the inclusion of the other players, or a delay until 7/30, but later came back to talk about it after the deal was done (one not particularly notable LAL podcaster says that his source said that they discussed pushing the trade to the 30th if LAL found a max guy, and NOP didn't need to trade the pick, but I find that less convincing than multiple major reporters, 1 with probably the best track record for LAL sources and one with excellent sources in NO.)
Word on twitter is a lot of people expect Atlanta to take on Bonga and Wagner, which makes some sense, Wagner was a 1st rounder last year, getting him for basically free isn't bad
Bill Oram at the Athletic had a different take today in his Q & A:
and, as I scroll down:
https://theathletic.com/1036955/2019/06/19/live-qa-with-lakers-writer-bill-oram-on-thursday-from-noon-to-1-p-m-pt/
and, as I scroll down:
Not quite sure I follow all the possibilities here..or if the Atlanta-NO trade today has impact.
Deadspin: Rob Pelinka is reportedly learning how the salary cap works in real time
It quotes Shelburne, Woj, and Howard Beck.
That Deadspin piece really does nothing more than the last few pages of this thread which is to, as you note, quote Shelburne, Woj and Beck.
We should probably wait to see what it "costs" Pelinka before judging. We don't know when this trade will close, nor do any of the reports that I've seen go into great detail about what sort of parameters were put around the trade by each side.
For example, if we knew that once the players and picks had been agreed to in principle but Griffin told Pelinka he had to agree right there on the spot or else he had something else lined up, does that change opinions? Because if the Lakers had to say "done" on the spot to close the trade, they did the right thing, regardless of the trade closing date. Without AD, nothing else mattered - they absolutely needed to get this trade done.
In any event, I don't know what Pelinka understands or doesn't and I doubt snarky Patrick Redford does either. But everyone worried about the closing date is consoling themselves in a small detail (and I clearly understand the cap implications). The Lakers needed to acquire Davis and did so. The rest, while important, is secondary.
We should probably wait to see what it "costs" Pelinka before judging. We don't know when this trade will close, nor do any of the reports that I've seen go into great detail about what sort of parameters were put around the trade by each side.
For example, if we knew that once the players and picks had been agreed to in principle but Griffin told Pelinka he had to agree right there on the spot or else he had something else lined up, does that change opinions? Because if the Lakers had to say "done" on the spot to close the trade, they did the right thing, regardless of the trade closing date. Without AD, nothing else mattered - they absolutely needed to get this trade done.
In any event, I don't know what Pelinka understands or doesn't and I doubt snarky Patrick Redford does either. But everyone worried about the closing date is consoling themselves in a small detail (and I clearly understand the cap implications). The Lakers needed to acquire Davis and did so. The rest, while important, is secondary.
Didn't Woj tweet last night that the trade with Atlanta means the deal closes July 6?
Although, I admit, it's hard to keep things straight
I didn't see that but my point stands. If Griffin told Pelinka it was a fill or kill after they agreed to the moving pieces, he had no choice but to say done on the spot. If Pelinka blew up the trade because of the closing date, he would really be stupid.
Did Griffin really have the kind of leverage to win every little concession, including the trade timing? What would he have done if Pelinka pushed back, after Rich Paul had done a nice job scaring off every other team? I can’t imagine the next best offer was anything like the haul they got. At some point Pelinka could have called Griffin’s bluff.
Can't you let me needle HRB without replying with very sensible critiques?
God, the offseason isn't allowed to be fun around here.
Oh needle away...apologies. But there are a lot of folks here trying to find solace in something that is minor. Pelinka may well be an idiot but he is the idiot who signed LeBron and acquired Anthony Davis to go with him. That's some Forrest Gump level savanting right there...Can't you let me needle HRB without replying with very sensible critiques?
God, the offseason isn't allowed to be fun around here.
The Lakers might actually need Wagner, Jones, and Bonga to fill out their roster if they can't land a max contract FA. If they do land a max guy it probably won't be that hard to shed those contracts. Maybe you attach a second rounder or two as a sweetener. Totally not worth blowing up the AD trade over. I like to laugh and point at the Lakers too and a more deft GM would have figured all this out in advance, but it's completely salvageable.
This is altogether too sensible.
And, yeah, even though it's good gossip, I have a hard time believing he was that ignorant. And, if so, the Forrest Gump analogy works....we should all be so naive. More to the point: the details and the little deals matter. A lot. But they don't matter as much as closing on big deals. That at least has happened.
Obviously, we'll never get the full story. Pelinka will not want to look stupid here and he has less than a sterling reputation as far as being honest.
I will admit I'm pretty salty after watching the Celtics get spanked over the last week, so I'm definitely biased here.
BUT I'm not sure about your "Fill or Kill" theory. The Laker moving pieces (Ball, Ingram, maybe Hart, maybe Kuzma, 3 draft picks) were pretty well understood for months ahead of time and they knew they had the #4 pick weeks ago. So the several "moving pieces" and their cap implications should have been thought out weeks beforehand.
All Pelinka had to say to Griffin is "here is our offer (Ball/Hart/Ingram/#4/future 1st rounder/future pick swap), but we'll need the 2019 #4 pick to NOT sign until July 30 so we can (a) pay AD his trade kicker & (b) fill out our roster".
It appears the Lakers didn't realize (a) and called the Pelicans back, after consummating the trade, about (b). When Griffin got that follow up Pelinka call, he probably laughed, patched in the Pels owner (on mute) and said "we'd love to help you Rob, but we plan on trading that pick, good luck playing 3 on 5 next season"
Since Pelinka didn't do (a) and (b) at the time of the trade, that exhibits very questionable trading skills. If Pelinka resigns, is demoted, or is fired by mid-season I'll take that as confirmation of a major screw up.
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IF it played out the way you think it did, Anthony Davis has to be more than a little pissed off. You're told through your agent that your soon-to-be team has everything figured out. Then you arrive only to find there's immense pressure on you to waive your $4M trade kicker or kind of look like an asshole for making the Lakers round out the team with flotsam and jetsam.
I have to admit, I really want this to be true because in my mind, Lebron was throwing chairs around when he learned the news.
i think both teams did what they had to do with the trade. the pelicans got multiple pieces in hopes that 2-3 will turn out great, and the lakers got the star they needed next to lebron
don't really fault anyone
With the trade of the #4 pick to Atlanta, the book is definitely closed on the Lakers getting a max contract player this offseason. It ain't happening.
I've been one of those sharing a laught at Pelinka's expense. However, I'll admit we don't know how accurate those reports really are. People at one time thought Wikersham and Tomase were correctly reporting facts as opposed to filling in the blanks on weakly sourced stories (or, in the latter, a completely fabricated story).
I've been one of those sharing a laught at Pelinka's expense. However, I'll admit we don't know how accurate those reports really are. People at one time thought Wikersham and Tomase were correctly reporting facts as opposed to filling in the blanks on weakly sourced stories (or, in the latter, a completely fabricated story).
Imagine the criticism Pelinka would face if this resulted in Griffin getting a deal done with Ainge last week instead? As DeJesus and Oram from The Athletic said which is what I've been preaching, priority 1A is to secure Davis. Job done. Now once the Lakers know how much they need for FA they can revisit the deal with a sweetener or whatever it takes since they will have more information on the market.
I’m of the opinion that one of the best ways to evaluate an NBA GM in trades is by his attention to little details. The pick swaps that look like they don’t matter, the dates that do or don’t line up. Taking on some Gerald Wallace for a pick swap that looks worthless, getting Vlade to throw in a swap even when you’re the worst team in the league, etc.
In general, the end framework of most trades is agreed on by both sides, but those little details really start to compound for the best and worst franchises.
I understand the “he got AD and that’s all that matters” school of thought, but is there a price that is theoretically too high? If you really can’t add a 3rd max guy, and your bench is thin as hell, you run the very real risk that AD just walks.
Imagine if the Lakers had emptied the entire cupboard in this way for Dwight Howard (who was nearly as good as AD)—they literally, 7 years later, would not have been able to make this AD trade, because they would just be getting their picks back now.
In general, the end framework of most trades is agreed on by both sides, but those little details really start to compound for the best and worst franchises.
I understand the “he got AD and that’s all that matters” school of thought, but is there a price that is theoretically too high? If you really can’t add a 3rd max guy, and your bench is thin as hell, you run the very real risk that AD just walks.
Imagine if the Lakers had emptied the entire cupboard in this way for Dwight Howard (who was nearly as good as AD)—they literally, 7 years later, would not have been able to make this AD trade, because they would just be getting their picks back now.
yes, but anyone could have done the job offering nearly asset in your possession to secure Davis. The slightly more complicated part that any competent GM should know is cap manipulation and timing
What was Ainge offering, with Rich Paul going to hilarious lengths to scare him off and with Kyrie bailing? Was it anything close to the player and picks haul the Lakers gave? Marc Stein reported they weren’t offering Tatum.
I don't agree and give him literally zero credit for either achievement.
Other than having the GM title when Lebron chose to come to LA (Honestly, what did they do to make the Lakers attractive for him other than being the Lakers?) and dumping the entire universe of assets for a player who has stated he will only play only for your team....what did he do?
It reminds me of my .com friends who think they achieved something special by happening to work for a company that turned out to be successful...occupying the right desk at the right time isn't a mark of anything other than good fortune.
I get the whole not-wanting-to-do-hot-takes thing, I really do, and I think my posting history bears that out.
But at some point a take is just a take, and “Rob Pelinka was less than 0.2% responsible for LeBron James coming to LA” is about as cold a take as I can think of.
“Any GM who was willing to trade away 4 years of drafts and all available players could have had AD” is a bit warmer, but not much.
AD’s agent announced his client was LA or bust. So giving Pelinka credit for completing Job 1A is... well, I wish I worked for an organization with those kinds of expectations.
“Hey Boss, I avoided pissing down my own leg when I went to the restroom!”
“Job One completed!”
“But I did fail to zip up and walked down the hall with my junk hanging out...”
“That’s just a detail, son.”
“Hey Boss, I avoided pissing down my own leg when I went to the restroom!”
“Job One completed!”
“But I did fail to zip up and walked down the hall with my junk hanging out...”
“That’s just a detail, son.”
Well, Paul George publicly declared that he was going to the Lakers and only the Lakers when he was a free agent and the Lakers screwed that up so badly they couldn't even get a meeting with him. So all things considered, not pissing down his own leg this time around was a huge improvement for Pelinka.