I wonder if the Worthy conditional late round choice is lost if he's cut; i.e., is it possible they'll resign him if he passes through waivers and then not owe the conditional choice?
53 Man Roster Thread: Ain't Done Yet
- Thread starter Corsi
- Start date
https://twitter.com/ErikFrenz/status/505809155471728640
https://twitter.com/ErikFrenz/status/505809155471728640
link to tweet
“@ErikFrenz: RT @tomecurran: Confirmed Ryan Mallett has made the Patriots 53. #patriotstalk”
Still waiting for the final NE cut/trade.
https://twitter.com/ErikFrenz/status/505809155471728640
link to tweet
“@ErikFrenz: RT @tomecurran: Confirmed Ryan Mallett has made the Patriots 53. #patriotstalk”
Still waiting for the final NE cut/trade.
“@MarkDanielsPJ: I've been told Chris Barker is still on the Patriots.”
https://twitter.com/MarkDanielsPJ/status/505810546340659200
https://twitter.com/MarkDanielsPJ/status/505810546340659200
link to tweet
https://twitter.com/MarkDanielsPJ/status/505810546340659200
https://twitter.com/MarkDanielsPJ/status/505810546340659200
link to tweet
RoDaddy said:
Can't see how they would owe the pick if they signed him again. Trade was made so they could get first crack at him.
“@MikeReiss: Long snapper Danny Aiken among 19 players released today.”
https://twitter.com/MikeReiss/status/505816647631142913
https://twitter.com/MikeReiss/status/505816647631142913
Herald
(NOTE - Shalise Manza-Young fucked up her article, having James Morris as a cut instead of IR, and omitting any mention of Aiken, but I made the necessary edits below.):
Quarterbacks (3)
Tom Brady, Jimmy Garoppolo, Ryan Mallett
Cut: None
Running backs (5)
Brandon Bolden, James Develin, Stevan Ridley, Shane Vereen, James White
Cut: Roy Finch, Jonas Gray
Wide receivers (6)
Danny Amendola, Aaron Dobson, Julian Edelman, Brandon LaFell, Matthew Slater, Kenbrell Thompkins
Cut: Josh Boyce, Jeremy Gallon
Suspended: Brian Tyms
Tight ends (3)
Rob Gronkowski, Michael Hoomanawanui, Tim Wright
Cut: Steve Maneri, Taylor McCuller
Offensive linemen (10)
Chris Barker, Marcus Cannon, Dan Connolly, Jordan Devey, Cameron Fleming, Josh Kline, Nate Solder, Bryan Stork, Sebastian Vollmer, Ryan Wendell
Cut: Braxston Cave, Jon Halapio, Chris Martin
Defensive linemen (9)
Michael Buchanan, Dominique Easley, Chandler Jones, Chris Jones, Zach Moore, Rob Ninkovich, Sealver Siliga, Joe Vellano, Vince Wilfork
Cut: LT Tuipulotu, Eathyn Manumaleuna, Jerel Worthy, Jake Bequette
Linebackers (5)
Jamie Collins, Darius Fleming, Dont'a Hightower, Jerod Mayo, Chris White
IR: James Morris
Cut: Steve Beauharnais, Ja’Gared Davis
Cornerbacks (5)
Kyle Arrington, Malcolm Butler, Alfonzo Dennard, Darrelle Revis, Logan Ryan
Cut: Shamiel Gary, Daxton Swanson
Suspended: Brandon Browner
Safeties (5)
Patrick Chung, Nate Ebner, Duron Harmon, Devin McCourty, Tavon Wilson
Cut: Kanorris Davis
Specialists (2)
Kicker Stephen Gostkowski, punter Ryan Allen
Cut: Danny Aiken
(NOTE - Shalise Manza-Young fucked up her article, having James Morris as a cut instead of IR, and omitting any mention of Aiken, but I made the necessary edits below.):
Quarterbacks (3)
Tom Brady, Jimmy Garoppolo, Ryan Mallett
Cut: None
Running backs (5)
Brandon Bolden, James Develin, Stevan Ridley, Shane Vereen, James White
Cut: Roy Finch, Jonas Gray
Wide receivers (6)
Danny Amendola, Aaron Dobson, Julian Edelman, Brandon LaFell, Matthew Slater, Kenbrell Thompkins
Cut: Josh Boyce, Jeremy Gallon
Suspended: Brian Tyms
Tight ends (3)
Rob Gronkowski, Michael Hoomanawanui, Tim Wright
Cut: Steve Maneri, Taylor McCuller
Offensive linemen (10)
Chris Barker, Marcus Cannon, Dan Connolly, Jordan Devey, Cameron Fleming, Josh Kline, Nate Solder, Bryan Stork, Sebastian Vollmer, Ryan Wendell
Cut: Braxston Cave, Jon Halapio, Chris Martin
Defensive linemen (9)
Michael Buchanan, Dominique Easley, Chandler Jones, Chris Jones, Zach Moore, Rob Ninkovich, Sealver Siliga, Joe Vellano, Vince Wilfork
Cut: LT Tuipulotu, Eathyn Manumaleuna, Jerel Worthy, Jake Bequette
Linebackers (5)
Jamie Collins, Darius Fleming, Dont'a Hightower, Jerod Mayo, Chris White
IR: James Morris
Cut: Steve Beauharnais, Ja’Gared Davis
Cornerbacks (5)
Kyle Arrington, Malcolm Butler, Alfonzo Dennard, Darrelle Revis, Logan Ryan
Cut: Shamiel Gary, Daxton Swanson
Suspended: Brandon Browner
Safeties (5)
Patrick Chung, Nate Ebner, Duron Harmon, Devin McCourty, Tavon Wilson
Cut: Kanorris Davis
Specialists (2)
Kicker Stephen Gostkowski, punter Ryan Allen
Cut: Danny Aiken
Section15Box113 said:
Byrdbrain said:
Agreed. And so does DK:
Doug Kyed @DougKyedNESN 8m
It would be pretty interesting if the Patriots rolled with Rob Ninkovich as the long snapper. I suspect they bring in someone new, though.
Nink does have a history, though. Has been long snapping since middle school, did it at Purdue, and was the LS for the Saints a lifetime ago.Byrdbrain said:
Just surprised to see him potentially wearing that hat again as an established vet.
RoDaddy said:
Ben Volin @BenVolin now
#Patriots also get their 7th round pick back after cutting Jerel Worthy
Aside from Aiken, the one cut that surprised me most was Gallon. I liked what I saw from the kid.
Big difference between not having a non-Nink LS today and not having one next Sunday, of course.
Easy to imagine that if he's reasonably good at it that the roster spot is worth more than the incremental value on a couple snaps, though. Of course if he's not reasonably good at it that equation changes, too....a blown long snap is akin to a turnover in value, I'd imagine.
Easy to imagine that if he's reasonably good at it that the roster spot is worth more than the incremental value on a couple snaps, though. Of course if he's not reasonably good at it that equation changes, too....a blown long snap is akin to a turnover in value, I'd imagine.
Between punts and FG, and the cost of a bad snap, it seems a LS would have value greaetr than a JAG. Who owes their roster spot to Nink being LS?
I think this is crazy talk. There is 0% chance that nink is the long snapper for week 1 or any other week. The whole snap, hold, kick routine is practiced to perfection to be a well oiled machine. Having a starting member of your defense in that role opens you up to fatigue and injury disrupting your kicking game. It just makes no sense, too much risk. If cutting Aiken got them to 53 then someone else is about to go and a snapper will be brought in.
Agreed, I don't think it'll happen---primarily because I don't expect Nink is close enough to a real LS to justify the risk.
I can believe the Pats do the math on that, though, because spending a roster spot on a LS has to irk BB a bit.
I can believe the Pats do the math on that, though, because spending a roster spot on a LS has to irk BB a bit.
Miguel@PatsCap.Com @patscap 2m
With Morris going on IR today Pats now have 4 players on IR. Will lose 1.212m in cap space on 9/4 to account for the quartet.
With Morris going on IR today Pats now have 4 players on IR. Will lose 1.212m in cap space on 9/4 to account for the quartet.
I place the chances we add a real LS between now and next Sunday at 100%. Probably Aiken re-signed after a bunch of waiver nonsense.
I hope he will forgive me for posting contents of our PM, but E5 Yaz and I were talking about how many moves the Pats (and most teams, probably) typically make between cut-downs and week 1. There were four guys they cut after cut-downs and re-added between week 1: Kline, Cole, Develin, and Washington.
I hope he will forgive me for posting contents of our PM, but E5 Yaz and I were talking about how many moves the Pats (and most teams, probably) typically make between cut-downs and week 1. There were four guys they cut after cut-downs and re-added between week 1: Kline, Cole, Develin, and Washington.
PedroKsBambino said:
My reason is that Nink's regular job poses a much greater injury risk than just being a LS. If he goes down during a defensive set, you've lost two positions instantly. I also have no idea who the backup LS would be if the job is Nink's. If it's Wendell, you've suddenly got the same situation in terms of usage and injury risk to two positions.
Not to mention that none of the centers are light or agile enough to get down field on kick coverage, nor are they suitably skilled at shedding blockers and making tackles while in pursuit. For that position, snapping and blocking against the ensuing rush at the LOS is the easy part.
When Belichick started, players didn't sub out - the same 11 offensive and defensive players played all game. I'm not sure why this particular specialization would irk him more than anything else.PedroKsBambino said:
http://www.patriots.com/news/article-1/Bill-Belichick-Transcript-We-have-a-long-haul-ahead-of-us/e25a5aec-182b-4582-84c4-bd2a39aa6d6d
Nink as LS would be interesting, as a lot of teams typically don't put a man on the long snapper for their blocks until well down the field. Only problem is that a lot of those blocks tend to be blind-side hits trying to wall a guy off, which I don't know if you want to subject Nink to, but he would be an upgrade from a tackling perspective in punt coverage. Other than that, it's probably a wash. Long snapping is pretty straightforward since the officials give the snapper so much protection, so I don't doubt that Nink could do it, I doubt if they'd want him to do it.
Super Nomario said:
Because while the cost roster-wise is the same (1 spot) the number of snaps impacted is small, and (at least in my observation) the difference in skill between the LS and the fallback is lower than at other spots. Same reason Pats don't really keep a PK and a 'kickoff/long FG kicker' essentially.
Also, there are really only a couple specialists on a roster such as the Patriots---P, K, LS, sometimes a KR.
Everything I think we can observe about BB says that he's doing cost-benefits on all of these choices, and so the reason I suspect it irks him more is that the value is less.
Is there some salary benefit to re-signing Aiken on Monday, rather than just keeping him (or anyone) on the 53-man roster (ie. can the Pats save $300k)
mabrowndog said:
I liked Gallon too, but there's just no room for him, especially for someone who missed most of training camp and preseason recovering from injury. He's a perfect practice squad candidate if no one scoops him up.
bankshot1 said:
Absolutely no idea why Chris Barker made the roster. He's the 10th of 10 OL, was a healthy scratch on the 53 all last year, didn't look great in preseason - would much rather have Aiken.
Last year the Patriots made a bunch of transactions the day after cutdown day, including multiple waiver claims, so we'll see what this roster looks like tomorrow afternoon.
The number of snaps is not really small - the LS plays as many snaps as the K and P, essentially (Aiken played exactly as many snaps as Allen last year and a couple dozen fewer than Gostkowski). As for impact, I think it's largely a sufficiency position; there's not much difference between a great LS and an average one, but there's a huge difference between an average one and a terrible one (which is what the Pats would likely be in for without signing Aiken or a replacement).PedroKsBambino said:
I suspect it irks you and you're projecting onto Belichick. I mean, he drafted a long snapper a few years ago, and constantly makes back-of-the-roster decisions based on special teams. I would think he puts more of a premium on long snapper than most coaches.PedroKsBambino said:
Super Nomario said:
There were 135 snaps in the 4th preseason game and the LS was involved in, I believe, 9 of them. If that doesn't meet your definition of 'small' please state what would. Your comment on impact is the same one I stated above--so, obviously, I still agree with it.
As for Belichick, I think you are missing my point. Do you think he isn't regularly trying to understand how to create more roster flexibility? I certainly think he is...and if so, I'd imagine he's constantly assessing whether specialists who are involved in a very small number of snaps have enough differential value to justify scarce roster spots.
Note that asking that question doesn't mean you will decide (for example) to carry a K/P instead of one of each...it means you are engaging in an assessment of incremental value each time you make a move, and always asking if you have a way to get that to be low enough that you can use the roster spot a different way. Given that, I believe all of the specialists are roles he'd rather fill a different way...but that he will only do so if the value equation justifies it, which typically it has not. My observation is that the difference in long snapping is less than that in place kicking or punting, thus why I suspect it'd be last on the list. I guess one could disagree there.
As I said initially, I don't think he'll conclude that here. But I think he's always thinking about the question, too.
Edit: I certainly agree Belichick values special teams highly; his willingness to use starters on special teams really emphasizes the point I'm making about flexibility rather than specialists where possible.
I think a big concern with depth has to be who is going to give Nink/Jones some rest. I don't think it's fair to rely on each of them playing 95% of the snaps. Given that, and with how capable he looked this preseason, I have to wonder if they give a serious look at Sam.
I think Belichick is constantly thinking about how to do things better. Roster flexibility can be one way to do things better, but increased specialization can also be a way to do things better. In the case of the LS, a massive advantage of a specialist is that you can practice the snapper / holder / kicker exchange without having to pull an offensive or defensive player out of position work (this is also the reason he has the P hold). So maybe it's not maximizing roster spot flexibility, but it is maximizing practice time efficiency.PedroKsBambino said:
I don't believe roster spot scarcity is the issue you think it is. There are 46 game day actives, but only 11 players play at a time. There's plenty of room for specialists. I completely disagree that "specialists are roles he'd rather fill a different way." Belichick's actions suggest otherwise. He used a 4th-round pick on Gostkowski, one of only 7 K chosen in the first four rounds since 2000. Mesko was the 150th pick in the 2010 draft; only 1 P has been drafted that high since. Jake Ingram is, as far as I can tell, the only pure LS drafted in the last decade. Gostkowski is the 4th-highest-paid K in the NFL per overthecap. Almost all of his actions suggest that these are positions he values.
EDIT: Following on the first point (I think this is the PC Stitch mentions above): http://bostonherald.com/sports/patriots_nfl/the_blitz/2013/09/football_nerd_alert_bill_belichick_explains_history_of_using
He's talking about the holder, but the same would presumably be true for snappers.
Belichick makes the point in the same PC that roster sizes used to be smaller and specialists played elsewhere. The increased roster size has been one of the things that's driven specialization.
No. Aiken was making the minimum, and doesn't have the service time to have a guaranteed salary if on the opening day roster.bankshot1 said:
My guess is he, or another minimum salary long snapper, will be in before opening day with one of the young OL they kept being waived. I'm guessing they want to get someone through waivers to the practice squad and think they might have a better shot of doing so when teams are scrambling around on Monday or Tuesday.
With regard to this, and I don't know how Bill structures his practice, but with us in college, ST periods were completely separate from everything else that was going on, so the rest of practice ground to a halt. This would happen twice, at the beginning of practice for KO/KOC/PAT and then halfway through practice for punt/punt cover. Our LS guys would get in all the work they needed either before practice started or during those periods, as they did play other positions throughout my time. My sophomore year, our LS was our starting LT, and my junior and senior years, he was a backup OLB/DE. In short, it shouldn't take reps away from anything they want to do, but the injury concern will probably make them shy away from it.Super Nomario said:
Super Nomario said:
On the first point, you're oversimplifying.... for example, I think he's say offensive and defensive players regularly divide their time between those tasks and special teams, for example. It's not 'just' about roster spots or about practice, it's about flexibility. If you don't think he values that, ok..I just disagree. Part of why I don't expect Nink to be the longsnapper all year is practice time---part is injury, and the biggest reason is he's likely not good enough a longsnapper. I do think the Pats do the analysis, though, on each of those things rather than seeing them as unrebuttable assumptions.
Again on the draft notes, you're asking a different question than the one I posed. I don't think there's a shadow of a doubt that Belichick values incremental value everywhere, including specialists (not that anyone questioned that in this thread). I do think there's a question about whether Belichick would rather use that spot a different way if he lost very little value in doing so---which was, of course, where I started.
Chuck Z said:
Though, there's also film and position group work on an NFL team---so there are tradeoffs today for players. Belichick is clearly not morally opposed to doing this in specific situations (Troy Brown, Vrabel, etc.) but it is a factor, I'd imagine.
Yeah, as much as we sucked in college, it was still a full-time job for us. First thing every day was a 40 min ST film session before another hour and a half of film for positional groups and then practice actually started. The time aspect for these guys isn't a concern, at least for me. It's more about do you want a chance your starting DE is knocked out on a punt, or do you want to deal with your LS getting rolled up on rushing the passer? My guess is at this level, the answer is no.PedroKsBambino said:
Completely agree. Would have kept Gray or Beau instead of a 10th OL, if not the only one at a position liek Aiken.mpx42 said:
This makes the most sense. Let's not forget our opening day roster did not need to be finalized today.....only the cutdown to 53. By waiving Aiken, and presumably telling him to keep his locker intact, it allows Bill the flexibility to keep a player on the roster he would have otherwise have to waive today. He knows nobody is going to offer Aiken more than the minimum so he is safely in Bill's back pocket until other moves shake out.SeoulSoxFan said:
He plays chess.
Sorry, I edited my post while you were writing this and added some quotes from a PC - Belichick basically makes the explicit point that the snapper / holder / kicker practice together a lot and maximizing their time together is ideal.PedroKsBambino said:
I agree re: Ninkovich. As for your second sentence - I think they did the analysis already. Belichick knows and remembers a time when things work differently. I don't think it's an on-going question as to whether they should reverse historical trends and roster a combination long-snapper / other as opposed to a specialist. If external factors change, I'm sure they'll re-evaluate, but basically all the trends - increased roster size, decreased practice time, increased specialization at the college and high school levels - suggest things will continue (as Belichick notes in the PC). I don't think Belichick / the brain trust spend any time on a season-to-season basis figuring out if they can gain a roster spot by eliminating a specialist position.PedroKsBambino said:
Fake Bill Belichick @CockyBelichick 3m
Why would I keep a long snapper if I don't plan on punting? #kisstherings
Why would I keep a long snapper if I don't plan on punting? #kisstherings
Mike Reiss @MikeReiss 36s
In addition to forming initial 53-man roster, Patriots were busy working out 12 players, including QB Jeff Mathews: http://es.pn/1sS1oBh
In addition to forming initial 53-man roster, Patriots were busy working out 12 players, including QB Jeff Mathews: http://es.pn/1sS1oBh