5 vs 8: Where we discuss the quality (or lack thereof) of NBA Playoff Officiating

Just a bit outside

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The Horford play seemed like a million plays this year. Every game has guys jumping up yelling at the shooter. The worst one was Smart. Morris was fully on the court. Just ridiculous.
 

TrapperAB

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I wouldn’t be surprised if the refs issue a warning early in the game (to one or both teams) that if players/coaches step onto the court, they will be whistled for a tech.

The league was willing to look the other way in the name of entertainment, but it’s gotten out of hand. Morris having two feet on the court highlights how egregious it’s gotten. It’s only a matter of time before a bench player makes contact with a player in the corner while he’s in the act of shooting. There’s no way Silver wants to deal with the public fallout should that happen.

I don’t have faith in the league to do the right thing… I do, however, have faith that they care about PR.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Yeah, a 26-18 foul disparity simply doesn't match the game played on the floor.

The disparate treatment of offensive fouls was egregious.

I get it's very hard to officiate, but the Celtics had to overcome a bad couple officiating games. And they did.
 

chilidawg

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Yeah, a 26-18 foul disparity simply doesn't match the game played on the floor.

The disparate treatment of offensive fouls was egregious.

I get it's very hard to officiate, but the Celtics had to overcome a bad couple officiating games. And they did.
It was as if only one team could be called for offensive fouls. The non call on Butler late was especially bad.
 
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I’m hoping the finals is a lot better in terms of officiating. No Giannis or Butler types to play by a different set of rules and get the benefit of an inconsistent whistle. GS wins with movement and shotmaking. If that beats you, I think it’s easier to stomach than having the refs so involved. But who knows. It is the NBA. And Draymond is nearly as annoying as Lowry.
 

reggiecleveland

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So in game where the Celtics win by three and Heat 3 pointer was taken off the board by the refs, the narrative that the Celtics got screwed persists?
Watch the first few calls of the third Q, if you can possibly attempt to be unbiased. Be honest Heat fans could bitch about all those calls. And a three taken away when it looks like his heel maybe didn't go down? Come on be honest. They actually retconned a hoop out of existence. Even in my current state of exasperation about ref whining I may burn down, at least a doghouse if my team lost by two on that call. Maybe there is a definitive angle, but I didn't see it.

So when we discuss era being different KD in the 80s, Wilt playing with Shaq's rules, Kyrie with the carry rules Jerry West lived with etc, how did those changes happen?
Did the refs just change things or did coaches and refs and league agree the best they could how to call the game? That's what happenes. It evolves and there are lots of disputes, Pat Reilley took allowing handchecks to absurd levels, as did Harden with touching the shooter. But, for the most part they agree. Replay has made it 100 times worse, because a lot of calls especially block charge have slo mo info the refs could never see and at one time they rightfully ignored.

Do I agree with how the NBA refs. No entirely I have said many times on this board that I prefe3r the FIBA reffing. But, FIBA refs do not have every call analyzed on social media in real time, and slow motion replays.

Reffing basketball is incredibly hard. Refs cannot possible detrermine if there was contact on a play if the ball got hit, etc. They and coaches basically agree how it is going to be called. Refs make a lot of calls based on probability, they call more fouls in some spots, some actions. They reward some plays, and not others.The frequency and quality of replays allow you to bitch about every call, but every call can't be wrong. Grant and Al chest up and bump defenders like crazy, they pushed KD around all series. That usually isn't foul and Nets fans are wrong for whining. Smart isn't as bad at faking calls as Lowry but that's like Pedro didn't throw as hard as Nolan Ryan.
 

nighthob

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So in game where the Celtics win by three and Heat 3 pointer was taken off the board by the refs, the narrative that the Celtics got screwed persists?
You forgot the part about the three pointer being shot from out of bounds. Because that heel was down.
 

reggiecleveland

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Noi i specifically mention it. Just wondering how it fits with the idea the Celtics got screwed and the NBA, ESPN, everyone else wanted the Heat to win. Was that not a controversial, unuals good call to favor the Cs?
 

reggiecleveland

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What I dont' get is how NBA hasn't gotten these type of calls fixed:

View: https://twitter.com/_JasonLT/status/1531102239527272452
I agree with you.
But this is part of where the coaches and league have to impose their will on the refs, but they haven't. Are the players and coaches okay with this? You would think there would be an outcry. Maybe the star players like it.

To me Tucker, Lowry, Smart, should all have been fined for stuff this series, and Lowry suspended.

I coach FIBA and there are frequent flop warnings. In my FIBA league we are at a point we wonder iof the refs call flopping too much. But it is a discussion.

You can see here it has not been clear sailing in FIBA though.
https://www.google.com/search?q=fiba+flopping+rule&client=firefox-b-d&sxsrf=ALiCzsYRWUSOtDzpusHIW4mTupBG54EneA:1653887698557&source=lnms&tbm=vid&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjohpXmu4b4AhU5m44IHRcsBRYQ_AUoAnoECAEQBA&biw=1920&bih=927&dpr=1
 

scottyno

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Noi i specifically mention it. Just wondering how it fits with the idea the Celtics got screwed and the NBA, ESPN, everyone else wanted the Heat to win. Was that not a controversial, unuals good call to favor the Cs?
What's controversial about a shot not counting because it was taken from out of bounds? Shots are reviewed and either taken off the board or changed from a 2 to a 3 or vice versa all the time.
 

Diamond Don Aase

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What's controversial about a shot not counting because it was taken from out of bounds? Shots are reviewed and either taken off the board or changed from a 2 to a 3 or vice versa all the time.
After the last few games, it is hard to believe that any member of the Heat roster was not on the court at all times.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Someone mentioned this in the game thread but I no longer have any idea what a charge is and what a block is. Maybe the NBA needs to expand the restricted area because I'd personally rather see players drive a d score the ball than guys take a charge (plus it seems super dangerous).

I also agree with Van Gundy that if a player is trying to avoid contact, the defender shouldn't be able to move and take a charge.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Someone mentioned this in the game thread but I no longer have any idea what a charge is and what a block is. Maybe the NBA needs to expand the restricted area because I'd personally rather see players drive a d score the ball than guys take a charge (plus it seems super dangerous).

I also agree with Van Gundy that if a player is trying to avoid contact, the defender shouldn't be able to move and take a charge.
Absolutely. I used to think I had a better sense of that. Jaylen Brown used to be a master of avoiding charges by changing direction. Now it seems like everything is a charge - I would love to see some stats on offensive fouls in this series.

I also have to admit I'm not sure what counts as a foul (offensive or defensive) on a screen anymore. I mean, when you set a screen, similar to a charge, isn't part of what you are signing up for having the offensive player run over you? In this series some of those were inexplicably (to me) called fouls. In some cases I can see why the foul is called - Tatum was called on a couple where he just drove right through the screener and threw him aside out of frustration (in a way that remonded me of the Harden offensive foul game a few years ago), and I can see those being fouls on Tatum. But absent any of that, shouldn't "defender runs into a good (ie, not moving) screen just be "play on"?
 

Average Game James

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Someone mentioned this in the game thread but I no longer have any idea what a charge is and what a block is. Maybe the NBA needs to expand the restricted area because I'd personally rather see players drive a d score the ball than guys take a charge (plus it seems super dangerous).

I also agree with Van Gundy that if a player is trying to avoid contact, the defender shouldn't be able to move and take a charge.
Block vs. charge calls are hard enough in slow motion, let alone real time, and I think that’s part of what makes them feel almost arbitrary. I think it’s an interesting idea to expand the restricted area, but my worry is it biases things even more in favor of the offensive player and I think we already see guys like Giannis get away with murder in terms of barreling into guys to initiate contact and getting calls. Take away the ability to get the occasional charge call and you may as well pencil him in for 20 FTA per game. I can’t immediately think of a corresponding rule change to also allow for defense to be played near the rim, and I wouldn’t trust refs just generally allowing a bit more contact because there’s no way that’s done on a consistent basis.
 

HomeRunBaker

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This may be the primary reason why playoff game threads are insufferable. You have 40 people admitting they don’t know what is or isn’t a charge, even after slo-mo replay, only to berate the officiating for making a call AT GAME SPEED on what they admittedly don’t know from their couch on replay.

My struggle is with screens especially at game speed. I feel the officials do a pretty good job on block/charges at game speed and I have a much better read on these……but screens, I’m literally guessing at game speed and sometimes replay doesn’t even help me.
 

Average Game James

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One thing I would love to see is the NBA coming down hard on clear and obvious flops where the player then gets up looking for a call. I’m not talking even stuff like Tucker getting a light push and falling down like he was shot. I’m talking about stuff like Lowry a couple games ago snapping his head back on a phantom elbow where he was literally never touched - no shades of gray, no trying to guess how hard the contact was since few of us have any idea just what it’s like to get hit even lightly by an NBA player, just a no questions about it flop. Allow that stuff to be reviewed on video and assess technicals at the beginning of the next quarter, max allowable fine under the CBA, suspensions after a certain number. It probably only helps at the margin, but those types of things drive me crazy (even when Marcus does it).
 

bankshot1

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I think the point that some seem to ignore or miss more than a Marcus 4th qtr 3 pointer, is that last nights game should never have been a 2 pt game that the Heat were in a position to win. There seemed to be an element of " WTF" in the 2nd qtr as it appeared there were a lot of 1-way calls to help manage the competitive nature of the game. And we've all seen it before.

IMO the Heat were beyond fortunate to be that close as IMO2 the Celts were clearly the better team last night, who were hindered by, if not the refs then, by the Heat hacking not getting called or Bam's continually setting moving screeens, or the vocal and vociferous and knowing Heat home crowd urging the Heat to get back into the game.

I thought it another poorly officiated game, with little consistency in calls.
 

Mystic Merlin

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One thing I would love to see is the NBA coming down hard on clear and obvious flops where the player then gets up looking for a call. I’m not talking even stuff like Tucker getting a light push and falling down like he was shot. I’m talking about stuff like Lowry a couple games ago snapping his head back on a phantom elbow where he was literally never touched - no shades of gray, no trying to guess how hard the contact was since few of us have any idea just what it’s like to get hit even lightly by an NBA player, just a no questions about it flop. Allow that stuff to be reviewed on video and assess technicals at the beginning of the next quarter, max allowable fine under the CBA, suspensions after a certain number. It probably only helps at the margin, but those types of things drive me crazy (even when Marcus does it).
I’m tired of watching Kyle Lowry, period, between his dirty plays and flopping.

But there is apparently a mandate that the media needs to characterize his bullshit as ‘gamesmanship’ and ‘veteran savvy.’
 

Toe Nash

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Like the poster upthread I am puzzled at why flopping remains in the game. Everyone knows who does it a lot and I understand they have to negotiate fines in the CBA, but like...just figure it out? It's horrible to watch no matter who is doing it, and the players who flop and are actually good like Smart will still be good players.

And yeah, I thought the series had been officiated OK, but the last two games were very inconsistent. You have to call things the same way, either tight or not, through the whole game and they didn't.
 

Average Game James

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I’m tired of watching Kyle Lowry, period, between his dirty plays and flopping.

But there is apparently a mandate that the media needs to characterize his bullshit as ‘gamesmanship’ and ‘veteran savvy.’
Even JVG seemed to tire a little of it by the end of the series which tells you all you need to know. I can’t stand Lowry, but at the same time his bullshit works, and I’m sure it’s the same for any Boston opponent with Smart.
 

PedroKsBambino

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This may be the primary reason why playoff game threads are insufferable. You have 40 people admitting they don’t know what is or isn’t a charge, even after slo-mo replay, only to berate the officiating for making a call AT GAME SPEED on what they admittedly don’t know from their couch on replay.

My struggle is with screens especially at game speed. I feel the officials do a pretty good job on block/charges at game speed and I have a much better read on these……but screens, I’m literally guessing at game speed and sometimes replay doesn’t even help me.
You are confusing the chicken and the egg here. The problem is that the way they are calling these has changed for the worse, and that creates the confusion. So it is an indictment of rule-making and officiating that this has occurred---not a defense of it. On block-charge a major part of the problem is officials have bought into the grifting of guys like Lowry and Smart, who are rewarded for acting and flopping. That's not a 'game' problem that's an officiating problem. I am of the view the NBA should adopt the standard used elsewhere---whoever initiates the contact should get the foul. Guessing at whether feet are set before or after a player leaves the ground is, at game speed, unrealistic as you note. And they should enforce techinicals and fines for obvious flopping, which they could but do not.

There's a separate---though related--problem which is how they call or don't call the lead-arm use on block-charge. On this part of it, I don't think you would dispute that there's huge inconsistency. They call some and don't call others with little standard to it. The rulebook doesn't distinguish (for example) between having your arm hidden by bodies and not, but the de facto standard is that if you extend the arm one on one in space you'll get a charge and if it happens when players are close together you won't. That's simply not the rule, and calling it "when it's obvious" is not helping, because it pretends a different rule than the one on the book.

On screens, the NBA simply has refused to call guys doing what Bam spent all series doing on a regular basis. It's bad officiating and it incents teams pushing the boundaries. The rule needs to be enforced, not treated as optional.

Pat Riley has spent about 35 years trying to figure out what teams can get away with if they do it a lot. It highlights the challenge refs face---teams are always working to get an edge on the calls. But this being true doesn't mean inconsistent application is ok, etiher.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Like the poster upthread I am puzzled at why flopping remains in the game. Everyone knows who does it a lot and I understand they have to negotiate fines in the CBA, but like...just figure it out? It's horrible to watch no matter who is doing it, and the players who flop and are actually good like Smart will still be good players.

And yeah, I thought the series had been officiated OK, but the last two games were very inconsistent. You have to call things the same way, either tight or not, through the whole game and they didn't.
I don’t think there is an easy answer. We saw how horrific “banning the flop” worked in college this season. Repeatedly, we’d see obvious charges not only not called but the defender being warned for flopping……after taking the shoulder of a 220 lb penetrate firmly into his chest. The officials still have to differentiate what is or isn’t a flop just as they have to determine what is or isn’t a block/charge……giving them another decision to make at game speed is a terrible idea.
 

Toe Nash

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I don’t think there is an easy answer. We saw how horrific “banning the flop” worked in college this season. Repeatedly, we’d see obvious charges not only not called but the defender being warned for flopping……after taking the shoulder of a 220 lb penetrate firmly into his chest. The officials still have to differentiate what is or isn’t a flop just as they have to determine what is or isn’t a block/charge……giving them another decision to make at game speed is a terrible idea.
So use replay. Have someone in the press box watching every play and issue a tech or suspension for plays where someone flopped with no or little actual contact. Just as a start.

You wouldn't catch everything but right now there is basically no penalty for doing it and the calculus would change pretty quickly.
 

Average Game James

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I don’t think there is an easy answer. We saw how horrific “banning the flop” worked in college this season. Repeatedly, we’d see obvious charges not only not called but the defender being warned for flopping……after taking the shoulder of a 220 lb penetrate firmly into his chest. The officials still have to differentiate what is or isn’t a flop just as they have to determine what is or isn’t a block/charge……giving them another decision to make at game speed is a terrible idea.
You also have the issue we saw in the Bucks series where the officials essentially told Ime if bodies weren’t hitting the floor then there would be no offensive foul calls. I literally can’t remember a charge call where the defender didn’t end up on his back (leaving aside how feasible it is given the amount of force coming from the offensive player).
 

djbayko

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This may be the primary reason why playoff game threads are insufferable. You have 40 people admitting they don’t know what is or isn’t a charge, even after slo-mo replay, only to berate the officiating for making a call AT GAME SPEED on what they admittedly don’t know from their couch on replay.

My struggle is with screens especially at game speed. I feel the officials do a pretty good job on block/charges at game speed and I have a much better read on these……but screens, I’m literally guessing at game speed and sometimes replay doesn’t even help me.
I think you're mistaking posters being exasperated over the inconsistency of actual defensive/offensive foul calls for people admitting they are ignorant about them. People who comment they don't know what a charge is - which has included me at least once - are doing so with tongue firmly planted in cheek.
 

m0ckduck

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I am of the view the NBA should adopt the standard used elsewhere---whoever initiates the contact should get the foul. Guessing at whether feet are set before or after a player leaves the ground is, at game speed, unrealistic as you note
Good post. To the quoted part: asking refs to assess who has initiated the contact seems nearly as subjective and hard-to-assess in real time as guessing at whether the defender's feet were set, though. I wonder if there's a different kind of criterion that would be much easier to judge objectively. For example, any use of arm for clear-out is a charge; any significant contact that does not involve clear-out is a block. A change like this would alter the spirit of the rule and the style of play, but it seems less severe than extending the protected area or getting rid of the charge altogether.

I don’t think there is an easy answer. We saw how horrific “banning the flop” worked in college this season. Repeatedly, we’d see obvious charges not only not called but the defender being warned for flopping……after taking the shoulder of a 220 lb penetrate firmly into his chest. The officials still have to differentiate what is or isn’t a flop just as they have to determine what is or isn’t a block/charge……giving them another decision to make at game speed is a terrible idea.
I think any anti-flopping crusade would have to rely on suspicious plays being reviewed after the fact, with the league handing out one-game suspensions for flopping. This would result in a bunch of guys getting suspensions, probably some undeservedly... but the net effect would be that guys would stop trying to sell charges and would probably go in the other direction of trying to remain stoic. Your're right that it would be too much for refs to litigate in real-time.
 

bankshot1

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In the old days if the defender shifted or moved it was a block, today we're told its ok to shift, use a foot to pivot and still get the charge called on the offensive player. It makes a tough call even tougher, and leaves it to the discretion of the ref as to the degree of shiftiness allowed. And as we all know some refs are more prone to shiftiness than others. (So T me up)

As a truly partisan observer with an emerald eye, I thought that Butler's drives and Tatum's drives to the hoop were called differently. The Heat play (smartly) as they won't call all the hacks, and they don't.
 

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The most frustrating part about NBA officiating is when they switch up how they call the game and call it inconsistently. What appeared happened last night is the Celtics got out to a huge lead and the 2nd quarter was called inconsistently from the entire rest of the game, with a huge slant towards the Heat. Make of it what you will.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Like the poster upthread I am puzzled at why flopping remains in the game. Everyone knows who does it a lot and I understand they have to negotiate fines in the CBA, but like...just figure it out? It's horrible to watch no matter who is doing it, and the players who flop and are actually good like Smart will still be good players.

And yeah, I thought the series had been officiated OK, but the last two games were very inconsistent. You have to call things the same way, either tight or not, through the whole game and they didn't.
The problem with flopping is that - and this is true in both soccer and basketball - a lot of time, if the "foulee" doesn't do something exaggerated, the refs don't call the foul. I mean how many times do you see guys grab another guy's arm on rebounds. None of them are called, except when Smart throws his head and arms around and falls to the floor. Same thing with contact to the head - refs apparently look for the guy's head snapping back, so everyone snaps their head back. (Derrick White does this a lot but he apparently never seems to get a call, probably because he doesn't exaggerate the effect enough.)

Lowry is really good at this, much to our chagrin. I'd put him ahead of Butler and Smart, who are the next two who are good at this (although Butler does his on the offensive end and Smart does his on the defensive end). Tatum and Brown are not good at this at all.

It's not great that to be a great defender, one has to figure out how to act too. But I'm not sure what the answer is. Maybe if someone goes down for more than 30 seconds, they have to come out of the game?
 

djbayko

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I was browsing r/Heat last night, and I found it interesting that many fans are calling themselves the 2002 Kings. They specifically point to the overturned Strus 3 and the post-rim graze Grant Williams basket after which they claim should not have been allowed. After seeing alternate angles / freeze frames, the overturned Strus 3 is making more sense to me now. I have to admit that I haven't had a chance to review the tape on the Grant Williams basket to know if it should have been a side out instead.

Anyways, I just wanted to point out that everyone hates the refs after that series.
 

PedroKsBambino

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The Strus call was odd in timing---while it has happened before, taking points off after the fact would feel bad to me as a Heat fan for sure. I do believe the replays support the call---but the timing is rough.

There's no credible case on the Grant basket that the ball didn't touch the rim---you can very clearly and visibly see the rim vibrating after the ball hit it. The more realistic complaint there (which the announcers made) is that often there's a whistle and stoppage even on a missed 24 second violation, not a 'play on' That's a more viable complaint than the shot itself.

There is never a game where all the calls are correct. My push on this is always to ensure people don't stop at "both teams have things to question" and instead to ask "was the impact of the missed calls equal?" because that's what really matters. Refereeing is hard---there will be misses. WHehter they are equal, and equally impfactul, is a better discussion (to the degree someone cares, which I realize some do not).

I thought game six second half was about the least balanced bad officiating we've seen in a numberof years. Game 7 was better; the second quarter was pretty unbalanced favoring the heat and the rest of the game was relatively balanced---lots of tough calls, but some each way. Overall the Celtics were the bigger team and more aggressive offensively and had 50% fewer fouls called in their favor---that is far more impactful than either of the calls the Heat cited. The charge-block stuff was egregiously inequitable. Lowry, in particularly contributed to how that was called and so to me, hard to argue the Heat got a bad whistle the last two game---which it is pretty clear the announcers agreed wtih.
 

Mooch

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I was browsing r/Heat last night, and I found it interesting that many fans are calling themselves the 2002 Kings. They specifically point to the overturned Strus 3 and the post-rim graze Grant Williams basket after which they claim should not have been allowed. After seeing alternate angles / freeze frames, the overturned Strus 3 is making more sense to me now. I have to admit that I haven't had a chance to review the tape on the Grant Williams basket to know if it should have been a side out instead.

Anyways, I just wanted to point out that everyone hates the refs after that series.
Yeah, that’s pretty insane to bitch about two calls like that when you never once had the lead in the game. The better team won and it’s pure homerism to claim otherwise.
 

tbb345

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The Strus call was odd in timing---while it has happened before, taking points off after the fact would feel bad to me as a Heat fan for sure. I do believe the replays support the call---but the timing is rough.

There's no credible case on the Grant basket that the ball didn't touch the rim---you can very clearly and visibly see the rim vibrating after the ball hit it. The more realistic complaint there (which the announcers made) is that often there's a whistle and stoppage even on a missed 24 second violation, not a 'play on' That's a more viable complaint than the shot itself.

There is never a game where all the calls are correct. My push on this is always to ensure people don't stop at "both teams have things to question" and instead to ask "was the impact of the missed calls equal?" because that's what really matters. Refereeing is hard---there will be misses. WHehter they are equal, and equally impfactul, is a better discussion (to the degree someone cares, which I realize some do not).

I thought game six second half was about the least balanced bad officiating we've seen in a numberof years. Game 7 was better; the second quarter was pretty unbalanced favoring the heat and the rest of the game was relatively balanced---lots of tough calls, but some each way. Overall the Celtics were the bigger team and more aggressive offensively and had 50% fewer fouls called in their favor---that is far more impactful than either of the calls the Heat cited. The charge-block stuff was egregiously inequitable. Lowry, in particularly contributed to how that was called and so to me, hard to argue the Heat got a bad whistle the last two game---which it is pretty clear the announcers agreed wtih.
To my eye, it seemed like if Lowry or Butler went to the basket it was a foul almost all of the time (definitely in the 1st half, the 2nd half they didn’t give Butler as many calls) whereas the Celtics had a much lower percentage on those types of plays.

And the refs fell for clear Lowry flops way way too often. I think there were 3 or 4 called and they were obviously flops in real time.
 

NoXInNixon

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The problem with flopping is that - and this is true in both soccer and basketball - a lot of time, if the "foulee" doesn't do something exaggerated, the refs don't call the foul. I mean how many times do you see guys grab another guy's arm on rebounds. None of them are called, except when Smart throws his head and arms around and falls to the floor. Same thing with contact to the head - refs apparently look for the guy's head snapping back, so everyone snaps their head back. (Derrick White does this a lot but he apparently never seems to get a call, probably because he doesn't exaggerate the effect enough.)
There's a difference between exaggerating contact, and whipping your head back and flailing your arms when there's no contact at all. Or grabbing the other guy's arm and acting like he grabbed you.
 

lovegtm

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To my eye, it seemed like if Lowry or Butler went to the basket it was a foul almost all of the time (definitely in the 1st half, the 2nd half they didn’t give Butler as many calls) whereas the Celtics had a much lower percentage on those types of plays.

And the refs fell for clear Lowry flops way way too often. I think there were 3 or 4 called and they were obviously flops in real time.
The current Heat are not a hateable team in general, but I'll be glad to have no more Kyle Lowry. Hopefully his career wraps up soon and I can be glad to have no more Kyle Lowry, forever.
 

NoXInNixon

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Mar 24, 2008
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Only difference these days appears to be who is better at doing it but YMMV.
In real time, it's easy to miss because a ref can't see a play from every angle. After the game is over, it's easy to fine and suspend players when a good camera angle shows an elbow missed a face by several inches.
 

mostman

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I’m usually fine with the bang bang plays. Officials usually have more context, watching the play develop live. Where my TV becomes jeopardize is when you get calls like the one against Brown for making a layup. You shouldn’t be able to defend with your face to get an offensive foul call.
 

chilidawg

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Even JVG seemed to tire a little of it by the end of the series which tells you all you need to know. I can’t stand Lowry, but at the same time his bullshit works, and I’m sure it’s the same for any Boston opponent with Smart.
Yeah JVG was pretty consistent at calling out Lowry's embellishing.

The offensive foul calls were the ones that got to me, C's seemed to get some marginal calls and the Heat got away with a few blatant ones.
 

reggiecleveland

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I’m tired of watching Kyle Lowry, period, between his dirty plays and flopping.

But there is apparently a mandate that the media needs to characterize his bullshit as ‘gamesmanship’ and ‘veteran savvy.’
I will say this again. The game is reffed the way the players, Coaches, and league decide. Until at least two of the three agree to punish the stage acting it will persist. No other player calls out floppers, no opposing coach goes off on Lowry. This tells me they accept it, or maybe like it.

The star players Harden, LBJ, Smart, Lowry, all do it, so probably don't want it punished. Getting calls is seen as status. If the gamthreads (shudder) are indicative of fans the complaints about Tatum exaggerating contact, laying on the floor, whining, and not running back on D are outnumbered by about 20-1 by complaints that he DESERVES those calls.

So here we are, we are all so polarized, biased, that we pillory Lowry, yet (I think only me) rarely mention Smart, or White, or any Celtic. If it's bullshit when they do it, it's bullshit when we do it.

edit to be more brief
 
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Just a bit outside

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There are a lot of rules that could be changed/enforced to make the game better. The obvious ones are eliminating the take foul, fining and giving a tech for flopping, calling techs for the constant complaining, and keeping the bench off the court. All of those would make the game better in my opinion.

The question I have is about the step in charge. Rusillo makes the argument that it should be eliminated because it is dangerous and impossible to call. He says players coming over should have to try and block the shot instead of slide in. That would mean refs would have to not call a defensive foul if the player is there and jumps straight up to block the shot. I’m not sure how I feel about it. What do you guys think?
 

the moops

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There is or also needs to be a difference between flopping to exaggerate a call and flopping when there was absolutely no contact. The former has a place in the game IMO. Some guys are so strong and are in correct position but if they don't "flop" on what is an offensive foul, it is just a play on. The latter makes me want to repeatedly punch the likes of Lowry
 

nighthob

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Noi i specifically mention it. Just wondering how it fits with the idea the Celtics got screwed and the NBA, ESPN, everyone else wanted the Heat to win. Was that not a controversial, unuals good call to favor the Cs?
I don’t recall saying anything about the NBA, I made a Scott Foster joke after a particularly bad call. Before they gave Bam a mulligan for clubbing White in the head.
 

snowmanny

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I’m usually fine with the bang bang plays. Officials usually have more context, watching the play develop live. Where my TV becomes jeopardize is when you get calls like the one against Brown for making a layup. You shouldn’t be able to defend with your face to get an offensive foul call.
That seemed like a normal shooting motion. Just generally, calling an offensive foul for something a player does with his arm, not his elbow, with his hand fully on the ball, in the act of shooting, on a made shot.....seems...dubious. I’m not sure I’ve ever seen that before.i don’t even think the elbow part matters.
 

dhellers

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Oct 31, 2005
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What if there was a "too much contact" choice? To be called when both offensive and defensive players welcome the contact.
When it is too much contact, the refs can whistle the play dead and the offense gets an out of bounds play (say, with 10 seconds not 5 to inbound, but no substitutions). And no one gets assesed a foul

That said : I usually don't bitch about officiating.. but in this game the the C's were NOT getting the same benefit of the doubt that Miami got.
The end of the 2nd quarter block on Marcus (where Lowry lowers his shoulder at half court and dives into him), and Bam really truely fouling Jayson's
elbow with his face were egregious.
 

benhogan

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I don’t recall saying anything about the NBA, I made a Scott Foster joke after a particularly bad call. Before they gave Bam a mulligan for clubbing White in the head.
damn that crome dome headband, it hid his 3" gash

receding hairline remains friendless
 

SteveF

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There's no objective level for deeming contact incidental. This is a judgment call for the official and has all sorts of implications. It means that the same amount of force when applied to a smaller player is a foul but may not be a foul when applied to a larger player. It creates an incentive for players to embellish how impactful the contact was. And there's probably a feedback loop in play. As players embellish contact, contact that isn't embellished but does significantly affect or impede a player goes uncalled.

So players throw their heads back, go to the ground on charges, etc.

I'm not sure what the fix is. Maybe you need to go through the games and levy fines and retroactive technicals for embellishment. I think it would be asking too much of the officials to handle it in game. They already can't officiate games well enough to sufficiently avoid altering outcomes as it is, and making them deal with this will only increase call variance and impact the outcomes of even more games.