5 vs 8: Where we discuss the quality (or lack thereof) of NBA Playoff Officiating

Jimbodandy

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The "in the lane" rule in the NBA is just disgusting on every level. Virtually every free throw guys step into the lane too soon. They virtually never call it. I'm like, look....either it's a rule or it's not. If you're never going to call it, just take it out of the stupid rule book. Unlike traveling or block/charge, which sometimes is pretty hard to adjudicate, stepping into the lane early is pretty cut and dried. Just frigging CALL IT. Guys will stop doing it if you actually call it. Or don't call it and take it out of the rule book.

It's really...not...that...hard.
The only refs who ever call that are the ones that like being the center of attention. This is not just an NBA thing either.
 

BaseballJones

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The only refs who ever call that are the ones that like being the center of attention. This is not just an NBA thing either.
That's stupid. (I'm not saying you're wrong, but it's stupid) If it's a rule, then it's a rule. Call the stupid rule. If you're not going to call it, then the rule needs to be erased from the rule book. It's utterly stupid to actually have a rule in the book with clear definition, only to have the refs simply decide to not call it for whatever reason they imagine is justifiable in their heads.
 

Jimbodandy

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That's stupid. (I'm not saying you're wrong, but it's stupid) If it's a rule, then it's a rule. Call the stupid rule. If you're not going to call it, then the rule needs to be erased from the rule book. It's utterly stupid to actually have a rule in the book with clear definition, only to have the refs simply decide to not call it for whatever reason they imagine is justifiable in their heads.
FWIW, I had a good friend/office neighbor who was one of the refs in my kid's middle school league. He explained lane violations as one of those rules where he only blows the whistle if one team "gets and advantage" from it. If you got the rebound or likely distracted the shooter because you left early, he'll call it. And I did ask "how the fuck do you know if you distracted the shooter", but he didn't have an answer.

edit: he was a D1 high school ref before his knees were shot and more or less called the 7th/8th grade games the same, so he says
 

BaseballJones

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FWIW, I had a good friend/office neighbor who was one of the refs in my kid's middle school league. He explained lane violations as one of those rules where he only blows the whistle if one team "gets and advantage" from it. If you got the rebound or likely distracted the shooter because you left early, he'll call it. And I did ask "how the fuck do you know if you distracted the shooter", but he didn't have an answer.

edit: he was a D1 high school ref before his knees were shot and more or less called the 7th/8th grade games the same, so he says
Interesting. I think that's so dumb. The rule doesn't say it's a violation "if one team gets and advantage from it". It's simply against the rules. Period.
 

Humphrey

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One question I have about the replay system is why teams get punished no matter what (IMO). If you win you still lose the ability to challenge. If you lose, you lose a timeout on top of that. Seems overly harsh when looking at subjective things.
I think it's worse in hockey- you get a 2 minute penalty for a denied challenge. Seems like if you simply lost your time out (and had one left to lose) that would be enough.
 

lexrageorge

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The "in the lane" rule in the NBA is just disgusting on every level. Virtually every free throw guys step into the lane too soon. They virtually never call it. I'm like, look....either it's a rule or it's not. If you're never going to call it, just take it out of the stupid rule book. Unlike traveling or block/charge, which sometimes is pretty hard to adjudicate, stepping into the lane early is pretty cut and dried. Just frigging CALL IT. Guys will stop doing it if you actually call it. Or don't call it and take it out of the rule book.

It's really...not...that...hard.
It is not normally called if the free throw goes in. But it definitely should be called if the free throw misses. I agree it should have been called when the lane was jumped 5 seconds before Brown released the ball.
 

BaseballJones

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It is not normally called if the free throw goes in. But it definitely should be called if the free throw misses. I agree it should have been called when the lane was jumped 5 seconds before Brown released the ball.
Right. That's always been the case that if the free throw goes in, they don't call it, because then you're penalizing the guy who made the free throw, making him take it over again.

But yeah, on a miss, it should be called, 100% of the time.
 

GeorgeCostanza

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It is not normally called if the free throw goes in. But it definitely should be called if the free throw misses. I agree it should have been called when the lane was jumped 5 seconds before Brown released the ball.
And they actually did call this earlier in the series. I believe it was also a Jaylen miss with Dray getting in the lane early.
 

JCizzle

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And they actually did call this earlier in the series. I believe it was also a Jaylen miss with Dray getting in the lane early.
IIRC, Draymond was crashing from the 3 point line in that case, not the lane. I think they also made Jaylen retake the shot even though he made it, which made no sense to me. This is what the rule seems to say:

During all free throw attempts, no opponent in the game shall disconcert the shooter once the ball is placed at his disposal. The following are acts of disconcertion:
  • Raising his arms when positioned on the lane line on a free throw which will not remain in play,
  • Waving his arms or making a sudden movement when in the visual field of the shooter during any free throw attempt,
  • Talking to the free throw shooter or talking in a loud disruptive manner during any free throw
  • Entering the lane and continuing to move during any free throw
    • PENALTY: No penalty is assessed if the free throw is successful. A substitute free throw will be administered if the attempt is unsuccessful.
 
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reggiecleveland

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The "in the lane" rule in the NBA is just disgusting on every level. Virtually every free throw guys step into the lane too soon. They virtually never call it. I'm like, look....either it's a rule or it's not. If you're never going to call it, just take it out of the stupid rule book. Unlike traveling or block/charge, which sometimes is pretty hard to adjudicate, stepping into the lane early is pretty cut and dried. Just frigging CALL IT. Guys will stop doing it if you actually call it. Or don't call it and take it out of the rule book.

It's really...not...that...hard.
Be careful what you wish for.
In FIba it gets called a lot, and it actually is a pretty tough call. If the O goes the D has to go. It is pretty frustrating to make an important FT, or get an important rebound then have a whistle blow. In film, I can often not tell who violated, but the whistle blew. Again I will say things are called the way people want, it is just the judgments that are arguments. At the NBA level these are men fighting for position, as long as they go at the same time, no advantage gained, they won't blow the whistle, and most are okay with it.
 

reggiecleveland

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I am putting this in a separate post. I think fans need to lobby through social media to get faking calls a finable offense.

Yesterday Poole, twice grabbed Smart then flopped when Marcus fought to get free. Clear on the replay. Obviously, the Celtics do this stuff too. But, after each game, the league should go through the replays and punish people for faking calls. It is out of hand.
 

ElUno20

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I am putting this in a separate post. I think fans need to lobby through social media to get faking calls a finable offense.

Yesterday Poole, twice grabbed Smart then flopped when Marcus fought to get free. Clear on the replay. Obviously, the Celtics do this stuff too. But, after each game, the league should go through the replays and punish people for faking calls. It is out of hand.
You aren't getting anywhere having Marcus Smart in any examples to lobby for this.
 

bakahump

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Anyone else notice that the GSW were "Face guarding" when boxing out last night. Its probably the only way the undersized group they have been using can compete on the glass.
I suppose it was legal what they were doing. Face guarding then just as the ball came off the rim spinning around half way.

Just found it interesting. And of course its not called.
 

djbayko

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The only refs who ever call that are the ones that like being the center of attention. This is not just an NBA thing either.
I agree with Jones - the way it’s not called today is stupid. Your point would be a non-factor if it was consistently called they way it’s supposed to be. Because then players would learn to stop doing it, and therefore, on the rare occasion where it had to be called, it wouldn’t be considered refs making themselves the center of attention.
 

Ed Hillel

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There was a lot for the NBA to be ashamed in Game 5, from an officiating perspective, not the least of which was the Jaylen free throw on which two players tumbled into the lane well before he released his shot. It missed, and there was no whistle. I'm not sure which player was at fault, the Celtic or the Warrior, but there absolutely needed to be a call one way or the other, because what happened was not legal, and you don't "play advantage" in basketball.
If you watch again, it IS a lane violation…on Al Horford. He was the first one in, though he got back and then obviously the two Warriors flailed around for a bit.
 

HowBoutDemSox

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Yeah, Smart has been fined by the NBA for flopping before. That doesn’t change the fact that flopping should be cracked down on more, or that the refs should be less susceptible of being fooled in the moment (and if more review is necessary to correct bad calls in game, so be it).
 

Deathofthebambino

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Payton tripping himself and called in the act of shooting, the Klay push off, and the Marcus blocking foul. These plays not being called correctly was both absurd and preposterous and I’ve got a hair across my ass on these three specifically. They don’t get more obvious than that. Each a different kind of foul with the actual correct call obvious for anyone to see.
How about when they called the ball off TL, which was clearly off Curry, and then hit TL with a foul with .5 seconds on the clock, and then followed it up with a tech on Ime, all in succession?

Or when they fell for Jordan Poole's blatant flop, and gave them ball to Golden State leading to a dagger 3 by Klay, after they hit Marcus for a BS technical...
 

djbayko

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I didn’t think there was contact but I was in a hotel and couldn’t rewind.
Gotcha. I also thought it was a bad call in real time. But upon watching replays from multiple angles, there was enough contact there to not overturn, especially given the unofficial standard set by NBA refs where they look for any way possible to justify the call on the floor.
 

reggiecleveland

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Yeah, Smart has been fined by the NBA for flopping before. That doesn’t change the fact that flopping should be cracked down on more, or that the refs should be less susceptible of being fooled in the moment (and if more review is necessary to correct bad calls in game, so be it).
It is a sad state. Curry, Smart, Tatum, White, Poole, hit the deck at least once game each crying for a call and the play continues. It amazess me how often it doesn't even draw a comment. Curry will miss a shot and sprawl on the ground, Smart will go careening into the shot from off the ball, it is just normal and that sucks.
 

Auger34

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It is a sad state. Curry, Smart, Tatum, White, Poole, hit the deck at least once game each crying for a call and the play continues. It amazess me how often it doesn't even draw a comment. Curry will miss a shot and sprawl on the ground, Smart will go careening into the shot from off the ball, it is just normal and that sucks.
I’ll do you one better…it’s either not talked about or it’s actually applauded by the announcing team!

I really hate it and it’s so fucking pervasive now. I feel like it used to be kind of an art form and now it’s just a complete joke.

What amazes me the most about the whole thing is that certain players do it literally all of the time (Kyle Lowry comes to mind) and yet the refs continually still give them the benefit of the doubt…its mind boggling
 

Scriblerus

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One of the Boston news channels was reporting from CA on Sunday and Golden State was having a shoot-around. Behind the reporter was Curry practicing shooting threes then falling down on his ass and sliding. He did it a couple of times before the segment was over. They practice flopping in the same way they practice off-balance shots in the lane. It's all part of selling contact in the NBA.
 

Just a bit outside

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It is encouraged. Announcers praise players for selling it and wasn’t it reported in the Bucks series that the Celtics were told they had to go down to get a call. It is crazy to want flopping to be part of the product.
 

Return of the Dewey

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It is encouraged. Announcers praise players for selling it and wasn’t it reported in the Bucks series that the Celtics were told they had to go down to get a call. It is crazy to want flopping to be part of the product.
I think a lot of this is refs calling a game based upon the team. Big, physical teams like MIL, you need to hit the ground in order to get a call because there is so much physical play that there would be a foul on just about every possession otherwise. Smaller teams, like GS, they're going to call more touch fouls against. The problem with the Cs is that they're in between so it sometimes appear that they get shafted. I don't think that this is anything new, but, what I think is new, is that the game has become so athletic that bigs are taking it up the court and driving to the hoop (instead of stationary on the block).
 

Jimbodandy

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It is a sad state. Curry, Smart, Tatum, White, Poole, hit the deck at least once game each crying for a call and the play continues. It amazess me how often it doesn't even draw a comment. Curry will miss a shot and sprawl on the ground, Smart will go careening into the shot from off the ball, it is just normal and that sucks.
Fwiw, whenever I watch FIBA rules ball, I spend 5% of the time muttering to myself about how much better the overall ruleset is. Not shitting you.

Boy and I watched the 2019 tournament together and couldn't stop talking about it. We only watched really because of all of the Cs on the roster, but it was great ball. Same with the U19 tourney last year. Wanted to see some of the top young guys (fell in love with Ivey), but the ball was fantastic.

Common sense rules to cut down on some of the worst bullshit.
 

lars10

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The problem with this is they don’t call the traveling as the guy rolls around on the floor. I wonder if you could just roll down the court and they would never call it traveling. It is tough to defend a guy who basically has no pivot foot. This is not just about this play. They let guys roll around on the floor all the time and the defender eventually jumps at/on them going down the ball because the guy on the ground can do whatever he wants to keep the ball away.
He also dropped the ball and sort of dribbled it before rolling over. I think characterizing what Jaylen did vs. what Green did is off base. Draymond fell onto Brown after already fouling him to cause him to go to the ground. Brown was going for ball.. at least it looked like it to me.. only reason he fell on Dray was because he was rolling.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I think a lot of this is refs calling a game based upon the team. Big, physical teams like MIL, you need to hit the ground in order to get a call because there is so much physical play that there would be a foul on just about every possession otherwise. Smaller teams, like GS, they're going to call more touch fouls against. The problem with the Cs is that they're in between so it sometimes appear that they get shafted. I don't think that this is anything new, but, what I think is new, is that the game has become so athletic that bigs are taking it up the court and driving to the hoop (instead of stationary on the block).
College and Pro-Am Summer League refs that I knew years ago used to all tell me or imply the same thing. The game is too fast to not call the game based on the players abilities and/or to anticipate calls. I was directly told this by a respected D-1 official after a summer league game. I had made a great defensive play that was a combination of anticipation and luck yet was whistled for a foul. After pleading my case, on the way down the floor he told me that I can’t make that play. I swore to him that I did and it was clean. His reaction was that of “Really? Damn nice job. I missed it.” Afterward we chatted when he shared what I mentioned above.

It’s things like this which make me appreciate NBA officials and how they are able to manage a game so fast and so quick.
 

Jimbodandy

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College and Pro-Am Summer League refs that I knew years ago used to all tell me or imply the same thing. The game is too fast to not call the game based on the players abilities and/or to anticipate calls. I was directly told this by a respected D-1 official after a summer league game. I had made a great defensive play that was a combination of anticipation and luck yet was whistled for a foul. After pleading my case, on the way down the floor he told me that I can’t make that play. I swore to him that I did and it was clean. His reaction was that of “Really? Damn nice job. I missed it.” Afterward we chatted when he shared what I mentioned above.

It’s things like this which make me appreciate NBA officials and how they are able to manage a game so fast and so quick.
Good shit to keep in mind (and cool story).

We have high expectations for the best and few selected refs in the highest league in the championship round. We should. But they aren't perfect.

I knew a guy who was trying to work his way up through minor league baseball, tapped out at AA as like a 30yo IIRC. He once asked me "you ever try to hit 90?" And I replied that I had off machines. After half a bucket of quarters, it was an accomplishment that I could foul off about half, maybe not even half...all fastballs obviously. Basically can't really see 90+ if you're not used to it. He said "I see 90s every game behind the plate and have to call it", and it kind of sunk in. There are men and women whose vision, anticipation, and experience are things that most of us can't fathom. Some like you and Reg played at a level much closer to this, but still. It's hard shit.

Some are clearly better than others. All we can hope is that we get the better ones, and they'll still miss shit. Just less.
 

NoXInNixon

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You aren't getting anywhere having Marcus Smart in any examples to lobby for this.
If they're not punishing players for it, then any player who's not doing it isn't giving his team the best chance to win. I want my team to do whatever the league will allow. I also want the league to not allow flopping. These two wants are not contradictory.
 

lars10

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If they're not punishing players for it, then any player who's not doing it isn't giving his team the best chance to win. I want my team to do whatever the league will allow. I also want the league to not allow flopping. These two wants are not contradictory.
It’s not only that the league rewards flopping.. it’s also a league that doesn’t call the foul if you don’t exaggerate the contact. The problem is.. in a play like the Klay one.. if they don’t call the foul then Marcus is incredibly out of position. It’s almost like Marc Davis didn’t call the foul because Smart flopped. As with anything else.. the lack of consistency is the most frustrating part.
 

Bleedred

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It’s not only that the league rewards flopping.. it’s also a league that doesn’t call the foul if you don’t exaggerate the contact. The problem is.. in a play like the Klay one.. if they don’t call the foul then Marcus is incredibly out of position. It’s almost like Marc Davis didn’t call the foul because Smart flopped. As with anything else.. the lack of consistency is the most frustrating part.
Marcus takes some serious calculated risks when he accentuates that type of contact. It was definitely a foul on Klay, but Marcus didn't have to fall the floor and slide 5 feet and put himself completely out of position. He does that at times too when he "pretends" that he got hit in the face, or mouth, etc. Marcus is the DPOY and his defense gives 10x more than it takes away with these types of things, but it's a reality.
 

reggiecleveland

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Fwiw, whenever I watch FIBA rules ball, I spend 5% of the time muttering to myself about how much better the overall ruleset is. Not shitting you.

Boy and I watched the 2019 tournament together and couldn't stop talking about it. We only watched really because of all of the Cs on the roster, but it was great ball. Same with the U19 tourney last year. Wanted to see some of the top young guys (fell in love with Ivey), but the ball was fantastic.

Common sense rules to cut down on some of the worst bullshit.
It is one of th ebig changes on my 30 years in hoops. I used to love to play coach in USa since the refs let thing sgo, knew the game better. Now, that is still true. In the USA the tournaments have better contingencies for unruly parents, players bitching, but the rules are behind now. In Canada every tournament has 24 sec clocks for all but the youngest age groups, and the number of timeouts is limited. Those two things alone put the game in the players hands.
The flagrant foul for transition fouls that are not legit plays is a gold mine Jerry. Our high school league enforces the suspensions for two flagrants and or combo of tech, flagrant in the same game. My team is a running, pressing team, (you really have to be to win in FIBA) and it is fun when we are rolling see a player on the other team know he has to let us get the layup and not risk the "take foul" play.
 

JCizzle

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My last ref complaint of the year, but that call on the Timelord block in the 4th on Poole was utter insanity just as the C's were clawing back. That level of contact occurs on every drive. It changed the momentum of the quarter, not that the Celtics had much of a shot anyways. So much for home cooking.
 
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BigMike

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My last ref complaint of the year, but that call on the Timelord block in the 4th on Poole was utter insanity just as the C's were clawing back. That level of contact occurs on every drive. It changed the momentum of the quarter, not that the Celtics had much of a shot anyways. So much for home cooking.
If only the league had an option for the coach to step in and challenge the play.
 

amlothi

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Curry had to intentionally foul Horford twice and then complain before the whistle blew. Incompetence.
 

Auger34

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I was really hoping that the league would return the favor and give Boston the type of home cooking that Golden State got in Game 2. No such luck. Some pretty terrible officiating in the 4th and just bad overall.

I didn’t know the name Zach Zarba before the playoffs started..I wish I could go back for those days of blissful ignorance
 

luckiestman

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I thought it was fine. Refs were real bad in game 2 but today was whatever. Some went our way some went their way.
 

BigMike

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I thought it was fine. Refs were real bad in game 2 but today was whatever. Some went our way some went their way.
Yeah there were a few plays here and there, but there were plays both ways. I wont say officiating was great, but Celtics lost today, because they got embarrassed on the floor for about 12 minutes in the middle of the first half, a decent bit of that with GS best player on the bench.
 

scottyno

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If only the league had an option for the coach to step in and challenge the play.
Williams had a hand on him. Yes it shouldn't have been called by the standard of how they make most calls, but on review that's all they would have needed to see to not overturn it.
 

Ed Hillel

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Refs were ok, but they did that thing again where they decided to go an entire quarter and just not call anything (3rd), while the rest of the game was officiated differently.
 

Jimbodandy

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Refs were ok, but they did that thing again where they decided to go an entire quarter and just not call anything (3rd), while the rest of the game was officiated differently.
Yes, it was infuriating. And the experienced team took advantage of it and started manhandling on every play. Celtics didn't glom onto the concept until the lead was 20.

Zarba's group wasn't that bad, just inconsistent. And he didn't even grandstand like usual.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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I am confused. The Celtics won the 3rd quarter 27-22.
I think the bigger issue was that the Celtics had clearly decided they were going to focus on driving to the net. Their willingness to pass up on open 3s was exacerbated by driving to the hoop when the refs had swallowed their whistle.

At halftime, I think there were around 10 total free throws. Ime not adjusting at halftime was a bummer.