I was surprised too there was no call there. Even more surprised nothing was called in the last six seconds, which looked like a free-for-all, or as described here "whistle-less chaos."
#37 Semi Ojeleye
- Thread starter ZMart100
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Yeah, I think the non-call was right, but I had to watch the replay 3 times to be sure. The thing that makes it weird is that Semi moves into position and then is able to control his jump and go vertical. Pretty impressive, but he'll usually get called for a foul there, so I'm not sure it's repeatable.
And then yeah, they fouled the shit out of the Nets in the last 6 seconds. It's been awhile since the Cs got the better end of the officiating, but it felt like they got some breaks last night.
How can you say that Semi went vertical when he landed two feet forward from where he took off and staggered forward even more when he landed? I thought that was a foul for sure. It's possible that there wasn't any contact to speak of since RHJ was executing a fall-away, but it didn't look so clean to me.
The two minute report from last night's game is out now. Dinwiddie should have been assessed a foul for pulling Smart to the floor with 2.6 seconds left. That's the only correction from the last ten seconds of the game as far as the league is concerned. Every play they reviewed involving Semi was ruled to be a correct non-call.
That's really interesting. Then I guess the ruling was that Semi didn't push RHJ or affect his shot. It certainly looked like he did, but appearances can be deceiving. Going back and looking at the film, the take-down of Smart was pretty egregious.
Yea, that was in no way a foul on Semi.
On another note, what the hell is Jaylen doing on this play? Talk about disinterested looking
http://official.nba.com/last-two-minute-report/?gameNo=0021700579&eventNum=1035
On another note, what the hell is Jaylen doing on this play? Talk about disinterested looking
http://official.nba.com/last-two-minute-report/?gameNo=0021700579&eventNum=1035
Yea, pretty sure it's just that the offensive player can't be called for a charge. You can still contest a shot - many blocks happen with defender inside the semi circle
The key here is that he jumped. When he jumped vertically to defend the shot, the special block/charge rule inside the Restricted Area no longer applied, and the normal rules governing defensive fouls came back into play. (The other main exception are drives originating within the Lower Defensive Box [from the bottom of the free throw circle to the baseline, and between to two posted-up marks that are 3 feet from either side of the lane].)
http://official.nba.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2017/11/Case-Book-2017-18.pdf (p. 9)
Semi Ojeleye has 2 blocks in 746 minutes. I don't think I've ever seen an NBA player who looks like he has size and strength and such little explosion. The guy gets absolutely abused - he holds his ground really well defensively and then gets consistently shot over.
I mean, Jameer Nelson has more blocks per minute this year. And JJ Barea. But he's 23.
I mean, Jameer Nelson has more blocks per minute this year. And JJ Barea. But he's 23.
He just doesn't leave his feet that much on defense. Classic Semi defense is he showcases his fancy footwork, managing to stay in front of the player he's guarding and block off the driving lane, then that player says, "Ah, the hell with it," and just goes straight up and shoots over him while Semi stays planted with his arm sticking up like a slightly bothersome rod in the other guy's face. And I think the rest of the NBA has figured out this is how he plays, so they're starting to take advantage of it.
Don't we want his man taking a midrange contested 2? I love his footwork, and in a vacuum I'd certainly love to see more blocks as well, but I'm not sure that's what Brad Stevens is encouraging.
Semi Ojalaye has a 40.5 inch vertical. Not sure lack of explosiveness if causing the low block rate.
Then its a good example of why no one pays attention to the nba combine. The guy just doesnt jump and once you notice it you see it every time he contests a shot. Even more frustrating if hes physically capable.
Sure, but the really frustrating bit is when his guy drives, he should have good defensive position, but they make the layup anyway because he just puts his arms up. They teach big men that but he isnt that long. Its a nitpick but its been driving me up the walls.
Kind of like how Zeller always played defense with his arms at his waist. Those simple technique errors are so frustrating to watch.
No you don’t pay attention to the combine. Plenty of people do.
He’s been a good defender this year, often playing more against better competition. I’d love to see him block more shots but his footwork and physicality are damn good. He’s a second round pick, not going to be perfect.
The combine stats are more than measuring ones vertical. Ojeleye was 3rd overall in his lane agility time which is a good measure of ones ability to keep his man in front of him while forcing long 2's against the shot clock.
The chicks love the blocks into the 3rd row but the way Semi plays positional perimeter defense with his limited experience is nothing short of amazing. Another plus is that he closes out on 3's without fouling. Now I've always said that there is a delicate balance between contesting a 3 effectively and fouling a 3-point shooter. I'll have to watch Semi more carefully to see if he should be more aggressive in his close outs as sometimes NOT ever fouling a 3 is a sign that you aren't contesting hard enough. NBA players are going to knock down an inordinate number of uncontested 3's.
He's also capable of covering multiple positions defensively. Look at who he was covering against the Pistons:
He puts his arms straight up and doesn't jump because he's trying not to bail the offensive player with a foul. It works well against guys his size and under - which are the guys he's used to playing against - but you're correct that sometimes people just shoot over him. He'll learn more about this.
Yea, it's a balance. But if you look at a lot of the top defenses throughout history, including the 08 Celtics, those teams generally fouled a lot. There is an advantage to be gained by making strong contests and forcing the ref to make a decision.
That, plus getting knocked to the hardwood isn't actually fun for most players. They might settle for the contested jump shot next time.
Ojeleye is exactly the guy you want making hard contact. No one cares if he picks up 3-4 fouls, as long as he's not doing it at stupid times...
But when the ref is forced to make a decision, the call generally goes against the rookie. Semi can raise his foul rate once his footwork earns him some respect, and that probably won't be for another year or two.
Semi was a late bloomer in college. Give him some time to figure out - with the help of Brad and his staff - what works best. If there is a way to improve his technique, I'm sure that information will be drilled into him.
That's true on the offensive end too.
That's true on the offensive end too.
I am not convinced Semi was a late bloomer in that he was stuck behind a loaded Duke team as a freshman and then Winslow came along his second year with Jefferson still the primary frontcourt reserve which is why he transferred in December that year after seeing spot minutes in only 6 games. Even Grayson Allen didn't see any minutes on that team plus K doesn't typically like using a deep bench.
My sense from watching him is that he's very effective guarding guys who want to create off the dribble and would prefer not to shoot. So, guys like Simmons, Giannis, Wade, Lebron, etc. He is not very effective at defending players who are perfectly happy to just pull up and shoot over him. Learning to contest is probably much easier than learning to stay in front of someone, so this is not a terrible place to start from, but the issue with guarding shooters is a real problem currently. The bigger issue is that his offense so far makes Marcus Smart look like a good shooter.
He's a rookie, albeit an old one. He does some things really well, and one thing shockingly well. He gets limited minutes. One would have to be Lord of the Pessimists to expect that he won't improve at his effectiveness contesting shots and in other areas. I expect that he has more "good Jae" in him offensively, for example. There's no good reason why he doesn't take the ball strong to the rim once in a while, except that he really seems to try to stay within himself. I'm buying on him, not selling. He has tools and a good motor.
Yes. To me his worst case scenario is “good guy to have around as a 10th man”. Upside is a guy who can start and contribute on some teams (though still more of a support player).
I've seen him take the ball strong to the rim a few times, and the end result hasn't been that pretty (though he looks good on the drive, then the shot comes and ... eh). Also, remember, it was on one of those strong drives to the rim where he got blocked so hard he landed on his back and was out a few games. He's got a long way to go offensively, but I agree, it's heartening that he's been effective enough on defense that Brad has confidence in him for a number of different size/skill matchups. Next year I think will be very telling for him, in terms of how much he develops, because he is an oldish rookie, as has been noted. I think he's doing fine for a second rounder, though I think Ainge would take Bell instead in a heartbeat if he had a do-over.
Edit: minor edit for clarity.
In all honesty, he reminds me of Crowder in that way. Plays smaller than he is sometimes. Crowder is a better finisher, but still not a great one. Better is better. And getting people running at your credible three attempt is a key part of that. Semi just isn't there yet at either of those skills. But I see no reason to think that he wont improve. Age isn't as relevant when it comes to savvy. NBA games and coaching is where that comes from. He is as big and fast as he's ever going to be though, of course.
Do they really play smaller than they really are though? How many 3's in this league are smaller than Crowder/Semi? I can think of several PG's though who are of similar size. My guess is they play small because well......they are. His problem, as you say in your last sentence is that he isn't getting any bigger so physically he is what he is.
It goes back to what I always said about Smart coming out of college when he struggled getting to and finishing at the rim when he didn't have this problem in college. It's the difference of having a 3-inch/40 lb advantage over your counterpart with a stiff 6'8 guy protecting the rim and going up against similar sized but quicker counterpart when you've got two athletic 6'10 guys protecting the rim.
Jaylen's the same height, but he has a much more high-flying inside game. Semi doesn't seem to elevate much and explode toward the basket, from what I've seen. He did try that one dunk where he got viciously blocked and wound up nursing a back injury. I'm just saying that a guy that size, with that physical strength, and that kind of vertical leap, should be more of a physical force inside, it seems. Barkley was only 6' 6", and he played pretty strong inside. To be fair, maybe some of this is Semi being a rookie.
Edit: to fix word repetition
Edit: to fix word repetition
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Lol. I wonder if Ainge would do Bell for Semi. My feel is that Semi is putty in Brad’s gentle hands and that long term, he’s going to be a 20 minute + rotation guy. I imagine he’ll shoot around 1000 jumpers a day in the offseason and his path to 20 minutes per game will me much quicker if Smart signs elsewhere.
He was a competent to good offensive player in college. It wouldn’t shock me if he becomes a 34ish % 3p shooter w time.
Bell isn’t exactly lighting it up, and doesn’t fit a need for the Celtics. It actually surprised me to see Semi at 29% from 3. Thought that would be lower.
Ha! That's a fair point, but I'm more trying to make the point that -- apart from results, and it's true that he won't have the same success as an HOF guy or someone else drafted #3 -- he just doesn't seem as aggressive or physical around the rim as you'd expect for a guy of that size, with that kind of leaping ability and solid build. Has he had a single putback this year -- I can't even recall a good shot off an offensive rebound. On rebounds per 36, he's at 5.0 -- same as Nader. Granted, he came into the league with a 3 & D reputation, so this may never be part of his game. Just seems kind of odd because he's so quick and such a good leaper. Anyway, he's a good second-round find, and what he brings on D is pretty valuable.
I don't know about that ... that self-feeding dunk he pulled off earlier this year was ESPN highlight reel stuff. Per 38, he's #6 for the entire NBA at .669 for FG%, #17 for blocks at 2.6, and #58 for steals at 1.7 (he's #85 for VORP at 1.0, while Semi is #471). That ain't too shabby, though it's true that he doesn't fit nearly as well into the Celtics' system.
Why does Bell fit better with the GSW than the Celtics? Don't they emphasize ability to stretch the floor as well?
I didn’t say fit I said need. And the Cs to this point have been averse to bigs who also can’t stretch the floor. We’ve all been pounding our chests to get a rim running big who blocks shots and Danny just hasn’t done it. Even Baynes can step out and make 18 footers.
They (rightfully IMO) value the space in the lane on offense over the 1-2 blocked shots per game.
His steal rate is atrocious too. Usually a lack of blocks and steals indicates a lack of length or a lack of BBIQ. He doesn't seem to lack either so it's perplexing.
Like most real good defensive players, he plays defense with his feet. He makes guys take uncomfortable, off balance shots. Sure he doesn’t go after the blocks but he also seldom fouls a shooter. Look at his FG% against and I bet that tells the story of who Semi really is defensively.
He's a big wing drafted in the second round who is signed cheap for 4 years and, even as a rookie, can keep just about anyone in front of him. But, yes, by all means let's nitpick him to death.
I don't know that we're nitpicking as much as we're trying to figure out who he is. As people keep saying his stats and his eye test are pretty different, and that's interesting. Personally I want to know more to see what he tells us about playing D in the NBA.
Is it nitpicking? I think it is legitimately interesting that his block rate is so low. Like an oddity at a carnival. Like how Nick Young used to have historically bad assist numbers. Or that two season stretch when that white 3 pt shooter on the Knicks (Novak?) didn't attempt a field goal at the hoop.
I mean, really, how does someone that athletic and otherwise good at defense have 2 blocks in nearly 800 minutes?
Its kind of annoying as a Celtics fan, but as a basketball fan its kind of neat.
I mean, really, how does someone that athletic and otherwise good at defense have 2 blocks in nearly 800 minutes?
Its kind of annoying as a Celtics fan, but as a basketball fan its kind of neat.
It was interesting looking this up on NBA.com:
Among forwards under 6'10, Igoudala leads in field goal percentage against. Second and basically tied with him is Jaylen Brown. Ojeleye is middle of the pack (Tatum interestingly is also at the upper echelon).
I am not sure how reliable these numbers are, I know NBA.com's numbers have received some criticism and don't agree with other trackers. And especially for perimeter players there are all sorts of other variables that go into a number like that. But it is interesting nonetheless.
The best players to shoot against? Tristan Thompson, Zach Randolph, and Jared Dudley. Those match the eye test so it ain't nothing.