30 for 30

Humphrey

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Aug 3, 2010
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Whether you are or aren't one who thinks its poetic justice, the fact remains that Notre Dame hasn't won diddly squat (yeah, they came close at least once) since that day.
 

gmogmo

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Jul 15, 2005
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Whether you are or aren't one who thinks its poetic justice, the fact remains that Notre Dame hasn't won diddly squat (yeah, they came close at least once) since that day.
and the fact remains that BC is the worst power conference team in both football and basketball
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

All Hail King Boron
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May 20, 2003
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Let's get back to what's important, that Lou Holtz and ND aren't the paragons of sportsmanship and virtue that the 30 for 30 tried to portray them as. It was hilarious to see the handwringing on display as poor Gerry Faust got his ass handed to him, followed by ND's revival, only to know that a few short years later Holtz would be doing the same thing that Miami had done to Faust.
 

drtooth

2:30
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If memory serves me correctly, every time Holtz has left a school the NCAA has come in after with a boatload of violations and sanctions.
 

reggiecleveland

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Back in the nascent days of the internet a Comsci buddy of mine was on one of the first sports discussion groups, and found this list of phone numbers. It was not uncommon for us after the bar to go home and cold call people. I pretended to be a sports reporter from Canada and said it was 12 noon in Canada, and pretty much everybody believed us.

Anyway one of the numbers was Skip Holt, Lou's son and assistant coach. I got him out of bed at about 4am South Bend time, and he spoke to me for about half an hour. I was an anti ND guy, and at first thought the fact a guy who thought it was 12 noon in Toronto ( I mean they are only a 7 hour drive apart) deserved to be pranked. My angle was that Canada was thinking of limiting scholarships in College hockey since Cape Breton "the bad boys" of college hockey had up to 600 people on scholarship to control talent on the east coast, and to allow a full roster while players served suspensions for tking their helmets off to celebrate goals, while a small Catholic school, called, coincidentally Notre Dame had lost the last three nation title games to Cape Bretton despite having only three scholarships, one of which they routinely gave to a terminally ill orphan. He could not have been nicer.
 

allstonite

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Oct 27, 2010
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The XFL one was really interesting to me. I remember it and watched a little of it but I still look back and can't believe that it actually happened.

- He Hate Me was cool at the time and still is great, fun sports story.
- I don't remember the blimp story at all
- Jerry the King was actually a color commentator for a football league
- Costas doesn't usually bother me that much and his larger points about the league were right but he really came off as a smarmy twerp.
 

Humphrey

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Aug 3, 2010
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I finally saw the last 5 minutes of Phi Slama Jama. First time I watched it, some game they were showing ran 5 minutes over and there was a game scheduled for an hour and a half later. Rather than cut out a commercial or two, they cut the ending out! Was real happy they found Benny!
 

DanoooME

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I'll bet Meltzer has a list a mile long of things said that weren't true.
There were a bunch of things in the early timeline that were way off, like Vince taking over from his father in 1979 when that didn't happen until 1982 or 1983.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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Apr 12, 2001
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I saw the XFL 30/30 the other night and thought that it was good, but I think that it could have been better. I think there needed to be a less "conflicted" director than the son of one of the guys who created the league. I'm not sure exactly how objective this piece was, to be honest. After watching it, I was thinking, "The league had some bad luck, but overall, everything seemed to work out pretty well -- aside from some media bashing. They should be in their 15th year."

And Bob Costas was a real fuck in this thing. Jesus Christ, he's so sanctimonious. "Oh, the names! Like the 'Hitmen', I mean what are they gonna do, rub you out in an ally? C'mon!" Like the Packers, Steelers or any other team name are so poetic. "Oh, the 'Giants'. I mean what are the gonna do, step on you? C'mon. These men are the same size as you or me!"
 

YTF

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Just caught some of the XFL episode, had it on while entertaining the grandsons so full attention wasn't paid so I'll need to watch it again. Yes Costas was douchey, but it didn't bother me so much as McMahon can be every bit the douche and then some. In some ways the introduction of XFL reminds me a bit of a Trump EO, rushed, not well planned out and not all that it could or should be. McMahon announces the the league will start in one year with nothing in place. No cities, teams or players lined up. I'm not even sure he had owners in place. It's a credit that he even got the thing off the ground in just a year, but in the end what did he really have? .
 

NortheasternPJ

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Nov 16, 2004
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It's a credit that he even got the thing off the ground in just a year, but in the end what did he really have? .
A bulging vein in his forehead while he tried not to murder Costas?

Bob Costas has no issue covering the Olympics and all the humanitarian and corruption issues but puts his foot down on the XFL?
 

Kliq

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Mar 31, 2013
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I didn't even watch the doc; but I don't believe it mentioned it all began when Vince decided he wanted to buy the entire CFL and when they said no he decided to create a rival league that would steal all the players.
 

JimBoSox9

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Nov 1, 2005
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I saw the XFL 30/30 the other night and thought that it was good, but I think that it could have been better. I think there needed to be a less "conflicted" director than the son of one of the guys who created the league. I'm not sure exactly how objective this piece was, to be honest. After watching it, I was thinking, "The league had some bad luck, but overall, everything seemed to work out pretty well -- aside from some media bashing. They should be in their 15th year."
I'll disagree with this; the director mostly did a good job for me letting the principals narrate the behind-the-scenes story, and the relationship between McMahon and Ebersol to take the gamble was fascinating.

'Bad luck but media bashing' is an uncharitable translation of what I saw, which is a league that really was cutting-edge innovative in a lot of areas of production values and marketing, which along with the NBC backing gave it a real shot to rattle the NFL's cage, but the talent level was SO, SO BAD that the brand was ruined beyond repair by the first season of play. It didn't pull punches in pointing out that Vince's compulsive need to promote the quality of play (like the cow-town carnival barker he is at heart) played a big role in skunking the brand. If pre-debut he hadn't been so loud about making better football games along with everything else, fans may have been more willing to give the league a couple seasons to grow into itself.

And Bob Costas was a real fuck in this thing. Jesus Christ, he's so sanctimonious. "Oh, the names! Like the 'Hitmen', I mean what are they gonna do, rub you out in an ally? C'mon!" Like the Packers, Steelers or any other team name are so poetic. "Oh, the 'Giants'. I mean what are the gonna do, step on you? C'mon. These men are the same size as you or me!"
Yup, yup, and yup, but I thought it made for a hilariously perfect counterpoint. I may be reading too much into a BASEketball cameo, but I honestly think Costas is self-aware enough to know how he comes off and plays it up intentionally when dealing with topics he finds fundamentally un-serious (which is most things and definitely includes the XFL).
 

joe dokes

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Jul 18, 2005
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Just caught some of the XFL episode, had it on while entertaining the grandsons so full attention wasn't paid so I'll need to watch it again. Yes Costas was douchey, but it didn't bother me so much as McMahon can be every bit the douche and then some. In some ways the introduction of XFL reminds me a bit of a Trump EO, rushed, not well planned out and not all that it could or should be. McMahon announces the the league will start in one year with nothing in place. No cities, teams or players lined up. I'm not even sure he had owners in place. It's a credit that he even got the thing off the ground in just a year, but in the end what did he really have? .

I always thought the XFL's problem was that it still shared too much in common with "normal" football, despite its attempt to be edgy. I was hoping for things like sideline players being able to tackle runners if they went out of bounds. Or having unlimited eligible receivers. So when it finally aired, no amount of guys named "He Hate Me" could mask the shitty football.
 

PayrodsFirstClutchHit

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Jun 29, 2006
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I always thought the XFL's problem was that it still shared too much in common with "normal" football, despite its attempt to be edgy. I was hoping for things like sideline players being able to tackle runners if they went out of bounds. Or having unlimited eligible receivers. So when it finally aired, no amount of guys named "He Hate Me" could mask the shitty football.
They hired too many former college and NFL coaches that were not onboard with the vision of XFL. They would have been better off having wrestlers as the coaches and producing a hybrid product of football/wrestling/rollerball.

The expectation from the fans was this was going to be a different overall experience from traditional football. They needed more people involved at all levels that were working towards that end. As many have pointed out, this just ended up being bad football with a few gimmicks. They needed to go all-in with making this an unpredictable and entertaining "new" sport.
 

Buffalo Head

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The Mike and the Mad Dog doc debuts at the TriBeCa Film Festival next week. No word yet on a broadcast date, but should be this summer. Can't wait for it.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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And no one is talking about this?

I thought it was great. Five hours was kind of odd -- they could have made this an 8 hour miniseries (add more interviews and surrounding cultural atmosphere) or done it neatly in two hours (skip the pre 1980s parts, tighten up the 1980s a bit).

I was at all the Boston Garden games shown, and I lived here of course. Was the racial aspect that the show dwelled upon so much really what the whole series was about to everyone not in Boston or LA?
 

Bleedred

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Feb 21, 2001
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And no one is talking about this?

I thought it was great. Five hours was kind of odd -- they could have made this an 8 hour miniseries (add more interviews and surrounding cultural atmosphere) or done it neatly in two hours (skip the pre 1980s parts, tighten up the 1980s a bit).

I was at all the Boston Garden games shown, and I lived here of course. Was the racial aspect that the show dwelled upon so much really what the whole series was about to everyone not in Boston or LA?
I don't know what I was expecting, but I thought it was mediocre. I enjoyed the interviews but I hated the voice-over narrations by the celebrity Boston/LA fans. It was fine, nothing more.
 

Blue Monkey

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I thought it was good. Being born in 1984 I just missed Bird and Ainge. Or I should say I was too young. I have always told my friends that if I was ten years older I would probably be a huge Celtics since I would have grown up watching these guys dominate. Watching this 30 for 30 pretty much confirmed that line of thinking for me.
 

wnyghost

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Aug 8, 2010
149
Post 2004 Red Sox, couple kids and moving to out of the Boston area... I've lost the all or nothing feeling of being a Boston sports fan. That said, oh man were those Lakers battles the best or what?

This series brought it all back. Must see T.V., must read Globe, the hatred, the joy, the pain.

My only problems were too much ML Carr and Max. The narration by Wallberg and Cube was also way too corny...

Going to watch again with my 10 year old son. Gotta bring back that Laker hate.
 

PC Drunken Friar

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Sep 12, 2003
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I get the race angle. I might even agree with it. But it was disappointing to see the Desecration of Old Glory part. It's a horrific picture and tells a thousand words... But it's been proven (unless I am very very wrong) that the guy with the flag was waving it, not stabbing the lawyer. That's either piss poor research or willful ignorance
 

moondog80

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Sep 20, 2005
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I get the race angle. I might even agree with it. But it was disappointing to see the Desecration of Old Glory part. It's a horrific picture and tells a thousand words... But it's been proven (unless I am very very wrong) that the guy with the flag was waving it, not stabbing the lawyer. That's either piss poor research or willful ignorance
Really? I've never heard this.
 

PC Drunken Friar

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Sep 12, 2003
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I Whoops, I got the name of it wrong... Soiling of Old Glory... And to add more intrigue, the guy pinning the lawyer, Landsmark, up so he can be speared was a huge anti-busing guy named Jim Kelly. In actuality, Kelly is helping Landsmark to his feet after he had just gotten beaten down. His nose was already broken and Kelly, it seems, threw himself in front of Landsmark to protect him from further beatings.

Maybe it's a little revisionist to say he was just " waving" the flag. Apparently, he was trying to hit him while swinging it, but there wasn't an attempt to stab him. The flag guy, Joseph Rakes, received 2 years in jail and 2 years suspended sentence, but never actually served time.

Another note, the guy who took the flag picture also took this picture a few years before and won his first pulitzer for it.

And the story to this photo is excruciating. The 19 year old falling is the 2 year olds godmother. The godmother, Diana, died. The toddler, Tiare, survived, probably due to the fact that she landed on her godmother.
 

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I am an Idiot

"Duke"
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Nov 16, 2007
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Really? I've never heard this.
There's a whole book specifically on the picture, "The Soiling of Old Glory: The Story of a Photograph That Shocked America", by Louis P. Masur that gets into it in fascinating detail. Filled with interviews of the main participants, etc...worth a read.
 

Van Everyman

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Apr 30, 2009
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The series had some corniness to it and part 1 did overplay the race angle a bit but it absolutely captured the sheer visceral hatred of the rivalry, of which race was def. a part.

I was at Game 7 in 1984 and Game 1 in 1985 when we all thought Kareem was done. At the former, I was 10 and my sister was 13 – my dad gave us his tickets so we could be at the game while he watched it from his office in the North End. We were in the nosebleeds. Our section was a notorious group of drunks. I remember we were the ones who started the chant (complementary to "Beat LA") "Fuck You, Jack!" as Nicholson was sitting in the rafters to our left. After three quarters of being ragged on, he turned to us and did the jerk off motion with his hand – I had no idea what it meant at the time. I still have a vivid memory of that lady running out onto the court to hug Larry at the free throw line in the last minute or so.

I wasn't there but I'm still salty about Game 4 in 1987 – it was one of the most poorly officiated games I've ever seen. To this day I will believe that Magic never should have had the opportunity to make the junior junior sky hook because the ball after Kareem missed wasn't off McHale. That said, the sheer fear the series shows that Larry struck into the Lakers' hearts during the go-ahead three and the miss at the end almost makes it better – you can see in the show how Riley, Magic, Scott and Green are still mentally scarred by how fucking close that last shot he took was. Almost.

What a rivalry.