30 for 30

Spacemans Bong

chapeau rose
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McMahon's pretty open about his concussions costing him a lot of short-term memory. I think his words were that he walks into a room and doesn't know why quite often.

I think Ditka gets a bad rap on Payton. You guys who were ambulatory then would know more than me, but I've read that the Pats built their game plan around stopping Payton, and that he had a pretty meh day at the office (22 carries for 61 yards). He also got stopped twice within the five, and something like five times in the red zone. I can see why he regrets it and they should have maybe called for some screens or a pass in the flat to Walter, but just because the Fridge, McMahon or Matt Suhey carried the ball into the end zone didn't mean Walter would.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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I think Ditka gets a bad rap on Payton. You guys who were ambulatory then would know more than me, but I've read that the Pats built their game plan around stopping Payton, and that he had a pretty meh day at the office (22 carries for 61 yards). He also got stopped twice within the five, and something like five times in the red zone. I can see why he regrets it and they should have maybe called for some screens or a pass in the flat to Walter, but just because the Fridge, McMahon or Matt Suhey carried the ball into the end zone didn't mean Walter would.
In the five to ten minutes that they talk about the Super Bowl, they show exactly that. There was one goal line stand where the Pats had four guys on Payton and McMahon walked in for the touchdown, untouched. The Pats' game plan was designed to stop Walter Payton, which they did a pretty good job on. Unfortunately, there were 52 other guys on the Chicago Bears.

I have to say that I really enjoyed this 30 for 30. I really don't like Mike Ditka at all and I especially hate the cult of Ditka and the NFL assgrabbers who consider him a genius. However, after watching this documentary, it changed my perception on him a bit. He didn't seem like the world's biggest asshole in that he was self-reflective and a had a bit of humor about himself. I'm not a Ditka fan by any means, but I've kind of softened on the guy.
 

Spacemans Bong

chapeau rose
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FWIW, I think Ditka's tough guy schtick and personality cult comes at the expense of people remembering he was a great fucking player.

His rookie season is staggering given that nobody had really conceived of a tight end who could catch the ball, and he could block as well as the guards since he was almost as big as them. The Gronk of his day (and Gronk shows up several times in his similarity scores).
 

tims4wins

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Duke lacrosse scandal up next Sunday. As a Duke grad I was quite upset at the university for jumping the gun and assuming guilt. Really looking forward to seeing this one.
 

Van Everyman

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I had some really conflicted feelings about this documentary.

It's always been hard for me to watch interviews with the parents in the Duke lacrosse story. While I obviously sympathize with their anger about their children being wrongly accused—feelings that are stronger now that I have children of my own—I've also always been disturbed by their total lack of self-awareness and complete absence of empathy for why people might have jumped to conclusions. Don't get me wrong: Nifong is clearly a horrible person whose self interest took a bad situation and made it exponentially worse. But the only person to say a single word about how much worse it would have been had been like had these boys been less privileged was one of the boys themselves, Reade Seligman.

At the same time, I couldn't help but notice that while the prevailing narrative about this story is that Nifong and this woman "ruined" these boys' lives, the reality turned out quite different:

http://lostlettermen.com/duke-lacrosse-rape-case-where-are-they-now/

As the doc showed, Nifong was disbarred and went to jail. The accuser is in jail for stabbing her boyfriend. What it didn't show was that one of the boys became a law clerk and law partner while the other two are now successful investment bankers.

None of which is to suggest that the guilty shouldn't pay a steep price or that the innocent shouldn't be able to carry on with their lives. But I feel like we should have been told that because it actually says more about this story than the danger of preconceived narratives alone – that "fantastic lies" notwithstanding, privilege at the end of the day DID prevail, that poverty, gender and race lost out, right or wrong, and probably always will. Oh and hey, while we're at it, let's shame an otherwise accomplished reporter who had been raped in college herself for jumping to the same conclusions everyone else did once the prosecutor went overboard.

Honestly, the whole thing depressed me.
 

tims4wins

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This is way too easy to say but on a much smaller, less important scale, it reminded me of Deflategate. Just not sure whether Kensil or Goodell is Nifong.

Hopefully in 10 years (or less) we will get a great documentary on it
 

kenneycb

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I had some really conflicted feelings about this documentary.

It's always been hard for me to watch interviews with the parents in the Duke lacrosse story. While I obviously sympathize with their anger about their children being wrongly accused—feelings that are stronger now that I have children of my own—I've also always been disturbed by their total lack of self-awareness and complete absence of empathy for why people might have jumped to conclusions. Don't get me wrong: Nifong is clearly a horrible person whose self interest took a bad situation and made it exponentially worse. But the only person to say a single word about how much worse it would have been had been like had these boys been less privileged was one of the boys themselves, Reade Seligman.

At the same time, I couldn't help but notice that while the prevailing narrative about this story is that Nifong and this woman "ruined" these boys' lives, the reality turned out quite different:

http://lostlettermen.com/duke-lacrosse-rape-case-where-are-they-now/

As the doc showed, Nifong was disbarred and went to jail. The accuser is in jail for stabbing her boyfriend. What it didn't show was that one of the boys became a law clerk and law partner while the other two are now successful investment bankers.

None of which is to suggest that the guilty shouldn't pay a steep price or that the innocent shouldn't be able to carry on with their lives. But I feel like we should have been told that because it actually says more about this story than the danger of preconceived narratives alone – that "fantastic lies" notwithstanding, privilege at the end of the day DID prevail, that poverty, gender and race lost out, right or wrong, and probably always will. Oh and hey, while we're at it, let's shame an otherwise accomplished reporter who had been raped in college herself for jumping to the same conclusions everyone else did once the prosecutor went overboard.

Honestly, the whole thing depressed me.
They were also railroaded by the school. I'm about 45 minutes in but the President and the rest of the administration actively gave them no support, as seen by the faculty comments throughout the film, and actually exacerbated the issue with some of the advice they gave the kids. They were just as culpable as Nifong, as evidenced by the lawsuit the three defendants won. "Until Proven Innocent" is a fairly comprehensive look at the whole situation.
 

Judge Mental13

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I had some really conflicted feelings about this documentary.

It's always been hard for me to watch interviews with the parents in the Duke lacrosse story. While I obviously sympathize with their anger about their children being wrongly accused—feelings that are stronger now that I have children of my own—I've also always been disturbed by their total lack of self-awareness and complete absence of empathy for why people might have jumped to conclusions. Don't get me wrong: Nifong is clearly a horrible person whose self interest took a bad situation and made it exponentially worse. But the only person to say a single word about how much worse it would have been had been like had these boys been less privileged was one of the boys themselves, Reade Seligman.

At the same time, I couldn't help but notice that while the prevailing narrative about this story is that Nifong and this woman "ruined" these boys' lives, the reality turned out quite different:

http://lostlettermen.com/duke-lacrosse-rape-case-where-are-they-now/

As the doc showed, Nifong was disbarred and went to jail. The accuser is in jail for stabbing her boyfriend. What it didn't show was that one of the boys became a law clerk and law partner while the other two are now successful investment bankers.

None of which is to suggest that the guilty shouldn't pay a steep price or that the innocent shouldn't be able to carry on with their lives. But I feel like we should have been told that because it actually says more about this story than the danger of preconceived narratives alone – that "fantastic lies" notwithstanding, privilege at the end of the day DID prevail, that poverty, gender and race lost out, right or wrong, and probably always will. Oh and hey, while we're at it, let's shame an otherwise accomplished reporter who had been raped in college herself for jumping to the same conclusions everyone else did once the prosecutor went overboard.

Honestly, the whole thing depressed me.
I felt conflicted too but for different reasons. This was more a case of the truth prevailing than privilege, imo, - Mike Nifong certainly enjoyed all the same privileges the Duke 3 enjoyed. Those guys aren't the only college students to ever be falsely accused of rape but they are one of the rare instances where it becomes national news and the truth of the story is widely disseminated.

Also, just because Susannah Meadows was assaulted in college doesn't mean she wasn't an asshole when she wrote her column demanding a confession. She apologized for it and she agreed to go on the show so not really sure who your complaint is with here.

That being said, the main thing the doc ignored was the incredibly high rates of unopened rape kits and bumbling investigations and conclusions that are leapt to because of them. The criminal justice system fails actual rape victims and it fails those falsely accused of rape, though the former on a far more regular, disturbing basis.
 

54thMA

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These 30 for 30's get better with each episode, this one was riveting.

To see the way school and the community turned on those kids and the media ran with the story, making it bigger and bigger was something else.

Loved the way one of the kids lawyers described the line up where the victim picked out the three kids; "Here are pictures of the 40 Duke lacrosse players; pick out three".................what a load of BS that was, completely illegal and they got away with it.

And the cop who changed his notes AFTER she picked out the three kids so they described each of them perfectly, what an asshole he was.

The lawyer who bought the DNA book off of Amazon, read it cover to cover and then went up one side and down the other of the DNA expert the DA brought in is my new hero, if this was a movie, I wouldn't believe a second of it; the fact that this really happened is mind boggling to me.

People can dump on lawyers all they want, but the lawyers who represented these kids were tremendous. I have a superb lawyer myself, he got me out of a huge jam about 15 years ago. I got dragged into a lawsuit where I did absolutely nothing wrong, but the other lawyer wanted none of it; if it wasn't for my lawyer, I would have been screwed, he worked his ass off to get my name cleared. It cost me a chunk of dough, but it was worth every penny..........................
 

54thMA

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The speech by the Captain prior to his surrender gave me chills. Very impressive kid.
Agreed; that was brilliant, not sure how he got through that without getting choked up, I did several times just listening to it.

The DA's campaign manager seemed like a real decent person who got caught up in it all, she saw it going sideways and admitted it was wrong, kudos for that.
 

TFP

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Watched the 30 for 30 short on GW throwing out the first pitch in the 2001 World Series. While the "Yankee Magic" crap was a little overdone, it was really well done otherwise and was a little chill inducing leading up the actual moment. Good stuff and worth the 25 mins to watch.
 

j-man

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i watched that 85 super bowl the 85 Bears was a all time team but had 1 huge weakness if u use 3 te or 4 WR and throw 3 step quirk routes u could score on them

had NE used the diff gameplan slop everyone but waler u dont win the game but u only lose 24-10 or so
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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i watched that 85 super bowl the 85 Bears was a all time team but had 1 huge weakness if u use 3 te or 4 WR and throw 3 step quirk routes u could score on them

had NE used the diff gameplan slop everyone but waler u dont win the game but u only lose 24-10 or so
You're talking about a different era with a different way of coaching/gameplanning. The 85 Patriots weren't capable of running out an offense like that. Even if they had the personnel to pull it off (they didn't), it's still a matter of mastering a completely different style of play in a week. Modern offenses, like the one the Pats run now, are versatile enough to switch things up week to week because they're coached to do so. That's not how teams worked back then.
 

j-man

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You're talking about a different era with a different way of coaching/gameplanning. The 85 Patriots weren't capable of running out an offense like that. Even if they had the personnel to pull it off (they didn't), it's still a matter of mastering a completely different style of play in a week. Modern offenses, like the one the Pats run now, are versatile enough to switch things up week to week because they're coached to do so. That's not how teams worked back then.
u are right i just wish the game was better to watch after the first q the game was unwatchable
 

j-man

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how about that penny shaq thing in orlando orl should had done a sign and trade shaq was meant to leave no matter what
 

Bergs

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Just caught the Duke Lacrosse one. Really riveting, and very good film-making. That Reade Seligman kid came off as a very impressive man.

I especially enjoyed learning that that cop committed suicide in the "where are they now" bit.
 

Winger 03

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Calling back to the 30 for 30 on the Hillsborough Disaster........

After about 2 years the courts in England ruled that the cause of death for the 96 killed was not Liverpool fans overrunning the stadium but rather inaction by the police. Now the folks in the UK can watch the previously unavailable 30 for 30 on the Disaster. It ran on BBC recently to excellent reviews.
 

54thMA

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Watched "Believeland" last night, the story of Cleveland sports and the futility of it all since their last championship won by the Browns in 1964.

Another very good episode, talk about a dry spell, 52 years since their last championship. The Browns history since 1964 is crazy bad between The Sipe INT in the end zone vs the Raiders, The Drive, The Fumble, then the move to Baltimore where the Ravens end up winning two Super Bowl titles and the expansion Browns who replaced them have never won a playoff game.


Basically, no one in Cleveland under the age of 60 can remember a championship.

Unreal.
 

PayrodsFirstClutchHit

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Watched "Believeland" last night, the story of Cleveland sports and the futility of it all since their last championship won by the Browns in 1964.

Another very good episode, talk about a dry spell, 52 years since their last championship. The Browns history since 1964 is crazy bad between The Sipe INT in the end zone vs the Raiders, The Drive, The Fumble, then the move to Baltimore where the Ravens end up winning two Super Bowl titles and the expansion Browns who replaced them have never won a playoff game.


Basically, no one in Cleveland under the age of 60 can remember a championship.

Unreal.
I enjoyed it as well. I had completely forgotten the Indians loss to the Marlins in 1997 WS when they were ahead 2-1 in the 9th in game 7.

Some really solid misery in all 3 sporting franchises.
 

54thMA

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I enjoyed it as well. I had completely forgotten the Indians loss to the Marlins in 1997 WS when they were ahead 2-1 in the 9th in game 7.

Some really solid misery in all 3 sporting franchises.
Great point as I too completely forgot that they were up 2-1 in the bottom of the ninth in game 7 before Mesa blew the save.

I thought they were going to include the 1999 and 2007 playoff collapses vs the Red Sox, but they didn't, they just focused on the two World Series losses.

Felt for the guy who witnessed the last championship in 1964 in person as a 12 year old, I think he's a writer for Esquire, poor guy has been through the wringer the past 52 years.
 
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54thMA

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Don't forget the failure of the Barons.
I think the key to winning a championship in Cleveland is to leave so you can win it somewhere else; the Barons left and merged with the No Stars, who then left Minnesota and won a cup in Dallas, Lebron left Cleveland and won two championships with Miami, the Browns left and won two Super Bowls as the Ravens, Belichick left Cleveland and won four Super Bowls with New England.

The key to winning is leaving....................
 

Buffalo Head

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I thought they were going to include the 1999 and 2007 playoff collapses vs the Red Sox, but they didn't, they just focused on the two World Series losses.
I'm surprised Game 7 in 2007 doesn't get mentioned. Joel Skinner holding up Kenny Lofton at third with the Red Sox up 3-2 in the seventh, when Lofton would have easily scored the tying run, then Lofton getting stranded on a Casey Blake inning-ending double play, was an incredible blunder that cost the Indians dearly.
 

Vandalman

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Richard Deitsch ‏@richarddeitsch 1h1 hour ago

The next three 30 for 30 subjects: Houston's Phi Slama Jama, John Daly, and "Catholics vs. Convicts” (Notre Dame vs. Miami in 1988).
 

GeorgeCostanza

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I watched the short on Jai Alai recently. Good stuff. I always assumed that those establishments were mobbed up to the eye balls and that's why it went down the toilet but unless ESPN just completely left that out it was a multi year player strike.
 

Buffalo Head

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Catholics vs. Convicts was really good. The story of those T-shirts was really interesting and of course the 1988 game was such an epic. If only they had replay!
 

Dan Murfman

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I wonder how it would've played out if they kicked the extra point and tied the game. They both would've been 10-0-1 and West Virginia was 11-0. As it was even West Virginia was ranked 3 behind Miami. Was there any talk of a rematch at the Fiesta Bowl?
 

LeftyTG

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watching that really made me grateful for the replay system. Just watching the plays in the doc, I thought ND's first TD, Miami's first TD, the fumble at the goal line and then (obviously) Miami's last TD were questionable, or at least would have been worthwhile to review.
 

NortheasternPJ

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Are you on X1? If you search for 30 for 30 it's under "additional episodes", you should be able to watch it free from there.
 

NortheasternPJ

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Thanks, NPJ and Dan. I am in X1 and I didn't check Additional Episodes. I'll DVR it tonight. Knew it had to have reruns.
Took me like 20 minutes to find it last night. it wasn't coming up under search and everything else. 30 for 30 seems to be a constant source of searching issues on X1 and when it was on Netflix too for some unknown reason.
 

Buffalo Head

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One thing I thought was funny was the scene where the poor besmerched Miami players have to endure being labeled "Convicts" on a t-shirt and how totally unfair and mean and hurtful it was to the good name of these poor innocent Miami players who are just as angelic as anyone at Notre Dame (while a sympathetic piano plays in the background).

A very different take on Miami than, say, "30-for-30: The U."
 

richgedman'sghost

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I loved it and thought it was one of the better episodes. It provided a nice counter balance to the "The U" episodes. Very interesting...
 

j-man

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i think a good 30/30 wouild be the rise and fall of the SWC big8 and how to move to the big 12 forever change college sports not only about SMU it was a power conf from 1940's to late 1980's
the downfall started when Arkansas left for SEC
the only reason Baylor was in the big 12 was ann richers she was gov of tx in 1993 and demanded Baylor wouild be in the big 12 i think they were going to pick Houston over Baylor maybe TCU over baylor but she had the power back then BTW i would kick Baylor Out for Hou or BYU
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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One thing I thought was funny was the scene where the poor besmerched Miami players have to endure being labeled "Convicts" on a t-shirt and how totally unfair and mean and hurtful it was to the good name of these poor innocent Miami players who are just as angelic as anyone at Notre Dame (while a sympathetic piano plays in the background).

A very different take on Miami than, say, "30-for-30: The U."
Of course later in his ND career Holtz was not averse to running up the score when it suited him, and that too came back to bite him in the ass (ran a fake punt up big in the 4th on BC in '92, got upset at home by BC in '93 to cost them the National Championship).

I thought the episode was interesting but naturally incomplete given who the filmmaker was.
 

54thMA

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Of course later in his ND career Holtz was not averse to running up the score when it suited him, and that too came back to bite him in the ass (ran a fake punt up big in the 4th on BC in '92, got upset at home by BC in '93 to cost them the National Championship).

I thought the episode was interesting but naturally incomplete given who the filmmaker was.
That BC win with Glen Foley as the QB and Coughlin as the coach is easily in my top five greatest games I've ever seen.

As that game winning kick fluttered around in the air it was good/wide left/good/wide right/good/wide left.............then good.

The BC celebration on the field was pretty special.

As far as the actual 30 for 30; I agree it was just ok, nothing great.
 

doldmoose34

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Of course later in his ND career Holtz was not averse to running up the score when it suited him, and that too came back to bite him in the ass (ran a fake punt up big in the 4th on BC in '92, got upset at home by BC in '93 to cost them the National Championship).

I thought the episode was interesting but naturally incomplete given who the filmmaker was.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, that fake punt in '92 when the French were killing us is why, one day when that lisping little troll Hotlz it dead there will be a large puddle of urine on his grave from This Guy

I thought the backstory on the shirts was interesting, but this easily could've been one hour not two
 

edoug

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That BC win with Glen Foley as the QB and Coughlin as the coach is easily in my top five greatest games I've ever seen.

As that game winning kick fluttered around in the air it was good/wide left/good/wide right/good/wide left.............then good.

The BC celebration on the field was pretty special.

As far as the actual 30 for 30; I agree it was just ok, nothing great.
I'm not sure if Gordon's kick was more Pedro-like or more Wakefieldish.