2024 UEFA Men’s European Championship
- Thread starter Dummy Hoy
- Start date
I thought the game had one more minute to be played in all fairness.
I feel for the England players, this is gonna hurt. But they'll bounce back.
I thought England were more threatening when they took Mainoo out and moved Belllingham in a center midfield role. Too little time to draw definite conclusions, but maybe this was the answer to the traffic jam on the front.
It wasn’t Mainoo, it was Kane. The problem all tournament was Bellingham, Foden, and Kane tripping over each other.
Pretty good day for Spain with Alcaraz winning on English soil and then Spain beating England in the Euro final.
Sometimes managers get a lot of credit for making impact subs, but when you have to keep making the same subs when you fall behind you have to look at why he wasn't changing the starting lineup.
Mainoo wasn't bad for sure and I agree that Kane didn't have a good tournament.
I am just wondering whether Bellingham would have been better in a central role. That's where he played in 2022, right?
From the Spain PoV, it never felt like England was going to do any harm going forward unless Spain gave it away or from a set piece (or a golazo). They felt toothless. They have too much talent to not really create on their own from open play.
There was a guy in my pub who stood to win $5k on an Alcaraz/Spain double placed before either tournament started, which I imagine cushioned the blow somewhat.
Yeah. It feels like Kane at this point needs speedy wingers, like he has with Musiala and Sané. Foden played well in the space created by Haaland's pace and power. It's like they had multiple good players, and yet they were missing a specific type that unlocks the other guys. In previous tournaments, that role was played by Sterling or Rashford.
I'd have started Gordon over Foden, and told Foden and Watkins they'd close. Have that pair work on their combinations in training. But maybe Southgate didn't trust Gordon defensively.
Well, at least now Southgate's proclamation about "only England manager to go to two major finals" looks even more stupid and tone-deaf, and I hope the women dunk on him twice as hard now.
It may not be coming home, but his chickens will come home to roost on that one.
It may not be coming home, but his chickens will come home to roost on that one.
They should send an Armada next. Gotta show some appreciation for the classics.
I found the announcers woefully inadequate for the final. Neither Ian Darke nor Lando possessed even cursory knowledge of the Spanish subs. It isn’t just the mispronunciation of Oyarzabal’s name by both of them- but for Christ’s sake, you’re a professional and just need to watch one game to figure out how to say it- it was the description of Zubimendi as a former Arsenal target and an “opportunity” for England to take advantage of. Sure, he’s no Rodri, but Rodri was Spain’s best player. Zubimendi is a touch below Rodri but he’s on the cusp of being a world class player. Arsenal want him. Barcelona want him. I don’t mind that the announcers watch other leagues primarily, but you’re calling the final with several days to prepare and you don’t know anything about these guys except that a Premier League club was rumored to have interest? Real Sociedad aren’t some third rate club. They were in the Champions League and won a group that included Inter. I know I’m a La Liga fan, but I found their lack of knowledge, and lack of caring to learn, absolutely infuriating.
What an advertisement for Euskadi, for La Liga as a whole outside of the 2 and a new, a more inclusive Spain! While this team is certainly not beter than the Golden Generation They are more fun and possibly set against the backdrop going on in the rest of the west, a more important team.
The spacing of the England defense was off this game also- several times you had the CBs clumping around the ball like U6s, and acres of space elsewhere. Too easy for Spain to slice through.
Yep. All tournament long, especially when Palmer and Watkins came in- where were these guys all game???
England had a lower combined xG in the tournament than Croatia who only played three games. Not a perfect statistic by any measure, but indicative of a team riding a bit of unsustainable luck in scoring anything.
Everyone is of two minds. First is that he’s young and hopefully doesn’t get injured or otherwise have his development derailed. Barcelona have had the Bojan Krkic and Ansu Fati experiences to look back on as cautionary tales. The club have actually hired Krkic to help kids do what he never could and adjust to life under extreme pressure.
Second is that he parallels have already been drawn.
Congratulations to Spain. They were the best team all tournament and totally outclassed England yesterday.
England could learn a thing or two from them.
First, the value of fresh eyes in a manager at international level. This why the "well who would replace Southgate?" rhetoric is completely off base. International football is really just about finding a tactical setup that works given limited time with the players and a constrained player pool. Changing the manager fairly regularly is really important because people bring a new perspective to that problem and can make decisions unconstrained from their history with specific players. Literally anybody is going to be an improvement on Southgate in this respect. He just needs to go.
Second, picking a team that makes sense as a collective rather than a group of the best individual players. Spain didn't do anything fancy tactically but they made sense as a balanced collective. Many of the selection decisions were made for De La Fuente due to the player pool - its not like he had a Harry Kane to pick if he wanted to at the CF position. But its worth stressing how players like Morata and Ruiz - not the sexiest names but excellent players who can play their roles well and allow others in the side to shine - were instrumental in making the side work together, both with and without the ball.
England could learn a thing or two from them.
First, the value of fresh eyes in a manager at international level. This why the "well who would replace Southgate?" rhetoric is completely off base. International football is really just about finding a tactical setup that works given limited time with the players and a constrained player pool. Changing the manager fairly regularly is really important because people bring a new perspective to that problem and can make decisions unconstrained from their history with specific players. Literally anybody is going to be an improvement on Southgate in this respect. He just needs to go.
Second, picking a team that makes sense as a collective rather than a group of the best individual players. Spain didn't do anything fancy tactically but they made sense as a balanced collective. Many of the selection decisions were made for De La Fuente due to the player pool - its not like he had a Harry Kane to pick if he wanted to at the CF position. But its worth stressing how players like Morata and Ruiz - not the sexiest names but excellent players who can play their roles well and allow others in the side to shine - were instrumental in making the side work together, both with and without the ball.
What was really shocking to me was how awful Kane was, how England looked immensely more dangerous the second he got off the pitch, and how crazy it was that Kane was given 60 mins of playing time in the Final anyway. Every minute Kane was on the field hurt England's chances. He had what, one touch in the box over the last three games?
I think Southgate has overall done a lot of good for England but his blind spots are getting bigger with each tournament.
I think Southgate has overall done a lot of good for England but his blind spots are getting bigger with each tournament.
Kane was genuinely shocking all tournament, made every game a breeze for opposing center backs, a false nine who never actually got on the ball. Yes, he scored three goals (one a penalty) but other than those moments he was the worst England player on the pitch at pretty much all times. The tactical setup didn't do him any favors but he also just looked terrible even independent of that setup, whether due to age or carrying some kind of lingering injury.
The fact that Southgate hooked him so early suggests that even he could see it by the end but he just couldn't bring himself to drop Kane from the starting lineup and give his side the best chance to win.
Donovan said something during the match yesterday about "of course you have to start your captain" and it struck me as patent nonsense.
Kane is apparently dealing with a back injury, but even when healthy he seemed a poor fit for this squad. It was shocking how much better England looked with Watkins and Palmer out on the field.
Southgate did some good things (starting Shaw yesterday seemed like a risk but he played well, the subs getting the winner against the Dutch, his overall focus on PKs which greatly improved their results) but he has so many head-scratchers that I think he's got to be finished.
If Harry Kane isn’t good enough to start when cleared, he should not be Captain. Your best player doesn’t need to be the Captain, but the Captain has to be a first choice selection. To Donovan’s point, if Southgate is supporting him in that role, then he has to start if cleared - otherwise he chose the wrong player to wear the armband.
Kane gutting it out with just one foot, the other amputated after that horrible buzzsaw Dumfries hit him with, is a performance for the ages.
If one of the smaller countries plays like this i reckon it would be embraced, see Iceland for example. England and France playing like this with the personel they have is borderline criminal.
Feels like Fifa or Uefa need to do more to make the game more enjoyable. Better refs could help, punishing the wrestling matches in the penalty area with a penalty will help. Change the offside rule that if part of the body is behind the defender its onside. It's something van Basten has preached for a long time but Eufa/Fifa are not interested.
Hockey has a no offside rule and it works, it also has a set time limit, ball out of play, clock stops. 2 30 minute halves of real time socces. No more time wasting, useless subs at the end of the half, "injuries".
Give the coach 2 times to challenge, leave the VAR out of the rest, or embrace the VAR and let the var decide yellows and reds, goals and corners/penalties.
If one of the smaller countries plays like this i reckon it would be embraced, see Iceland for example. England and France playing like this with the personel they have is borderline criminal.
Feels like Fifa or Uefa need to do more to make the game more enjoyable. Better refs could help, punishing the wrestling matches in the penalty area with a penalty will help. Change the offside rule that if part of the body is behind the defender its onside. It's something van Basten has preached for a long time but Eufa/Fifa are not interested.
Hockey has a no offside rule and it works, it also has a set time limit, ball out of play, clock stops. 2 30 minute halves of real time socces. No more time wasting, useless subs at the end of the half, "injuries".
Give the coach 2 times to challenge, leave the VAR out of the rest, or embrace the VAR and let the var decide yellows and reds, goals and corners/penalties.
I thought the Euros in general on the field were just ok, not the spectacle it can be. Off the field it was awesome, but the games were kind of lackluster. That being said, I blame that on how the managers set their teams up not to lose as opposed to win. I hope that when managers sit down and put those fancy numbers in their fancy machines, as Ray Hudson likes to say, that they realize that the two best teams- Spain and Germany- were not the most talented teams, but they were the two that tried to win.
Managers are overthinking it to validate their own salaries. Just put the best players in the best positions and have them do what they do best. De La Fuente was an uninspiring (and quickly controversial) hire. In the end, he as the right hire because he didn’t ask Nico and Yamal to play tiki taka. He allowed them the opportunities to create dangerous chances at the risk of making a mistake, and trying to actually win the game m
Speaking for myself, but soccer is a great game as it is. Every time we try to “fix” it, it makes it worse. When was the last change that improved the game? The GK backpass rule in like 1990? Just leave it alone.
As per usual, not that we Scots have anything to crow about, but we do like to pull the piss out of the English when they lose. A new Tennents billboard :
The armchair analysts (myself included) are always going to be smarter than managers that know the teams and see them train. We also have the benefit of hindsight, right?
There were plenty of issues to go around. We've discussed the Kane issue ad nauseum. If the FA are comfortable that Southgate handing Kane time because he's Kane, there's little we can discuss. If Southgate was running him out because he thought it would help the team... That's a different story. England were already down to 10 men with Kane clogging the middle, but his corpse was pushing Foden and Bellingham into less or completely ineffective positions.
What I found more troubling was the lack of a cohesive plan. Trent was starting and playing earlier in the tournament. His role didn't seem clearly defined or understood. He wanted to play the hero ball, but he didn't have a target. He constantly disrupted the shift of play by pausing with the ball at his feet. Either he wasn't supposed to be looking for that ball (which begs why he'd be playing at all), or his targets weren't making runs. That's an organizational issue that the manager should be addressing. Seeing Southgate plug Gallagher in, then Mainoo, suggests he didn't really know what he wanted Rice's partner to do, either. Those three guys- TAA, Gallagher, and Mainoo, are dramatically different players that can fill different roles. Not to mention, at the time of his benching TAA had created more chances than anybody else in the side.
That's the most stark example, but it goes deeper. At times, England looked to press. What was the trigger? It looks like nobody knew. As it got late against Spain (with Kane off), Bellingham broke to apply pressure. Support came from Watkins, Palmer, and one other player and they had a good initial line of pressure. Problem was, they had shifted out of their defensive line and just opened up an incredible pocket between the pressing players and the now shorthanded midfield. Bellingham was bypassed and he threw up his hands in frustration. There were countless examples of that throughout the tournament. Look, team pressing is difficult, but it needs to be a commitment. Piecemeal and uncoordinated pressing burns a lot of energy with questionable ROI.
Again, it comes down an international team and what simplified game plans you can execute. I just didn't see the players working the same ideas. They looked like a pickup squad, and their goals were virtually all moments of individual brilliance with extremely low xG. Somebody else already posted this upthread, but it bears repeating:
View: https://twitter.com/xGPhilosophy/status/1812598637513629804
That is absolutely atrocious.
There were plenty of issues to go around. We've discussed the Kane issue ad nauseum. If the FA are comfortable that Southgate handing Kane time because he's Kane, there's little we can discuss. If Southgate was running him out because he thought it would help the team... That's a different story. England were already down to 10 men with Kane clogging the middle, but his corpse was pushing Foden and Bellingham into less or completely ineffective positions.
What I found more troubling was the lack of a cohesive plan. Trent was starting and playing earlier in the tournament. His role didn't seem clearly defined or understood. He wanted to play the hero ball, but he didn't have a target. He constantly disrupted the shift of play by pausing with the ball at his feet. Either he wasn't supposed to be looking for that ball (which begs why he'd be playing at all), or his targets weren't making runs. That's an organizational issue that the manager should be addressing. Seeing Southgate plug Gallagher in, then Mainoo, suggests he didn't really know what he wanted Rice's partner to do, either. Those three guys- TAA, Gallagher, and Mainoo, are dramatically different players that can fill different roles. Not to mention, at the time of his benching TAA had created more chances than anybody else in the side.
That's the most stark example, but it goes deeper. At times, England looked to press. What was the trigger? It looks like nobody knew. As it got late against Spain (with Kane off), Bellingham broke to apply pressure. Support came from Watkins, Palmer, and one other player and they had a good initial line of pressure. Problem was, they had shifted out of their defensive line and just opened up an incredible pocket between the pressing players and the now shorthanded midfield. Bellingham was bypassed and he threw up his hands in frustration. There were countless examples of that throughout the tournament. Look, team pressing is difficult, but it needs to be a commitment. Piecemeal and uncoordinated pressing burns a lot of energy with questionable ROI.
Again, it comes down an international team and what simplified game plans you can execute. I just didn't see the players working the same ideas. They looked like a pickup squad, and their goals were virtually all moments of individual brilliance with extremely low xG. Somebody else already posted this upthread, but it bears repeating:
View: https://twitter.com/xGPhilosophy/status/1812598637513629804
That is absolutely atrocious.
Right, who's going to cry if you make Stones or Bellingham or Walker captain for the final? "Oh, Kane, he was dealing with a back issue, so he was good to play but we felt Ollie would give us a better 60-70 minutes today." They're gonna crucify him over that? Seems like status quo bias from Southgate to me. Ask Vlatko how that goes.
100%
There is nothing worse than a couple of guys pressing, but only a couple of guys. The commitment has to be shared to reap the benefit. It’s conceptually simple but very costly in both physical and mental energy. It has to be a defense-as-attack mentality- if you’re not looking to spring runners on the counter the moment one guy forces the turnover, what’s the point- and if only a couple of guys are freelancing with the heavy press, all it does is create huge holes in the middle of the park.
That’s on the manager
Big Sam has his detractors, none more than me, for the way he takes glee on playing anti-football- but his approach, where he literally lines his lines up on the practice pich with a rope stretched touch line to touch line and forces them to move in unison, like schoolboys- a few afternoons drilling like that wound have improved this side, and that’s sad.
