2023 Starting Rotation

CoffeeNerdness

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Not necessarily. If he has any soreness at all they are going to get an MRI, anything else would be frank negligence on their part when it comes to Sale
Anecdotally, I can't ever recall a guy getting pulled mid-game with what ended up being described as a dead arm. Often it's a period of ineffectiveness and/or reduced stuff where later we hear it described as a dead arm. Point taken on the MRI.
 

Blizzard of 1978

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Sep 12, 2022
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When's the last time you heard of a pitcher having a rotator cuff injury? They were all over the place in the 80s, but fell out of style in the 90s. Maybe Sale likes throwback injuries more than throwback uniforms.
Hope it's not a rotator cuff injury as that is way worse than a Tommy John for the elbow. If it's a rotator cuff basically he won't pitch for the Red Sox again. Hope it is just a tired arm like some posters suggest.
 

Blizzard of 1978

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Anecdotally, I can't ever recall a guy getting pulled mid-game with what ended up being described as a dead arm. Often it's a period of ineffectiveness and/or reduced stuff where later we hear it described as a dead arm. Point taken on the MRI.
I have yearly mri for health issues and with me I find out in 24 hours. With Sale it should be sooner.
 

chrisfont9

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Per the internet, the most common source of soreness in pitching shoulders is inflammation of the muscles or tendons, including the rotator cuff, associated with overwork. The career-threatening situations are tears, but there are plenty of other possibilities.

I have yearly mri for health issues and with me I find out in 24 hours. With Sale it should be sooner.
Yeah, their doctors give out MRIs like halloween candy. No stalling while the insurance company questions the need.
 

Rovin Romine

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As a data point in this conversation in 2018 Sale went on the ten-day IL twice in July and August with "mild left shoulder inflammation."

I don't think that's really dispositive of anything here. It could suggest this is something that has happened to him before and he just needs to rest it a bit. It could also suggest something that might have been lurking and gotten worse.
 

Manramsclan

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The only opinion in this thread about Sale's injury that is worth a damn is DaveRoberts'Shoes.

All of you are saying things that reveal your ignorance about this topic. Often what is reported about injuries is in extreme layman's terms. Everyone here regurgitating those terms when they know nothing about the various types of injuries, the anatomy involved, or the various levels of severity should just stop.
 

DeadlySplitter

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Sorry to perhaps jump the gun a bit, it's just hard to be optimistic with Sale.

I noticed watching that last AB back his shoulder seemed to be unstable and that's where hte lost velocity / wonky mechanics came from. I think tha'ts what Cora noticed right away, probably should ahve pulled him the first time he came out, once it happened again two pitches later he didn't give Sale any more choice.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Maybe a question for the doctors...is there anything to read into (optimistically) that it took two trips to the mound to decide to remove Sale? Like whatever it is wasn't painful enough for Sale to dip immediately, or call for Cora/trainer (they appeared to go out of their own accord/concern). That makes me think it can't be too too serious or dire. Hopefully it's just soreness/inflammation from throwing more than he has in the last three years, and a couple weeks off will be all he needs.
 

chrisfont9

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The only opinion in this thread about Sale's injury that is worth a damn is DaveRoberts'Shoes.

All of you are saying things that reveal your ignorance about this topic. Often what is reported about injuries is in extreme layman's terms. Everyone here regurgitating those terms when they know nothing about the various types of injuries, the anatomy involved, or the various levels of severity should just stop.
Wow. Ok. Because we are too stupid to discern a catastrophic tear from routine soreness? Nobody here is volunteering to be his doctor, we are just sorting through the implications for his career. It’s not fucking quantum physics— he either hurt a body part that heals easily, or one that doesn’t. If this discussion doesn’t suit you, then stay out of it.
 

DaveRoberts'Shoes

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Wow. Ok. Because we are too stupid to discern a catastrophic tear from routine soreness? Nobody here is volunteering to be his doctor, we are just sorting through the implications for his career. It’s not fucking quantum physics— he either hurt a body part that heals easily, or one that doesn’t. If this discussion doesn’t suit you, then stay out of it.
I think his point probably was that we are all, including me, engaging in speculation about what it might or might not be. When we have some more concrete info I can certainly give a little more context than most of the posters around here, as other people can opine better than me on any number of other topics.

As to your comment about the availability of MRIs… Shields is the official MRI provider of the Red Sox. I don’t think they are going to run his Harvard Pilgrim card to get this one done. It would shock me if it hasn’t been already.
 

chrisfont9

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I think his point probably was that we are all, including me, engaging in speculation about what it might or might not be. When we have some more concrete info I can certainly give a little more context than most of the posters around here, as other people can opine better than me on any number of other topics.
Sure seemed like he said we were too "ignorant" to even try sorting through the potential implications and should shut up. But yes, we look forward to more information when the professionals here can explain it in more detail.
 

Benj4ever

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For a millisecond I thought he was fine when he hit 96 post mound visit after being 91-92. It probably didn't help that he reached back for something extra.

Curious if Crawford slots in or if they go back to Kluber who hasn't pitched out of the pen yet. Probably the latter.

It's a bit early for Drohan. Don't want to mess with him.
Probably...But they'd be better off moving forward with Crawford. Kluber doesn't look like anything more than a mediocre long reliever at this point.
The good news for the pitching staff yesterday was how dominant Pivetta was in short relief. He was born for that role.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Probably...But they'd be better off moving forward with Crawford. Kluber doesn't look like anything more than a mediocre long reliever at this point.
The good news for the pitching staff yesterday was how dominant Pivetta was in short relief. He was born for that role.
Kluber is very likely going to be starting one of the games tomorrow. With the off day on Monday, that would allow him to stay in the rotation the next time through if Sale is shut down. Seems like the path of least resistance given Kluber is stretched out for starter innings and Crawford is not.
 

LogansDad

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The only opinion in this thread about Sale's injury that is worth a damn is DaveRoberts'Shoes.

All of you are saying things that reveal your ignorance about this topic. Often what is reported about injuries is in extreme layman's terms. Everyone here regurgitating those terms when they know nothing about the various types of injuries, the anatomy involved, or the various levels of severity should just stop.
JFC man, it's a message board. None of us know anything, not even DRS. Excellent job furthering the discussion though, really glad we have people who can make posts that are derisive of everyone here. Keep up the good work.
 

mauidano

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I think his point probably was that we are all, including me, engaging in speculation about what it might or might not be. When we have some more concrete info I can certainly give a little more context than most of the posters around here, as other people can opine better than me on any number of other topics.

As to your comment about the availability of MRIs… Shields is the official MRI provider of the Red Sox. I don’t think they are going to run his Harvard Pilgrim card to get this one done. It would shock me if it hasn’t been already.
I think we defer to The Good Doctor DRS here. Everything else is panic speculation.
 

Benj4ever

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Kluber is very likely going to be starting one of the games tomorrow. With the off day on Monday, that would allow him to stay in the rotation the next time through if Sale is shut down. Seems like the path of least resistance given Kluber is stretched out for starter innings and Crawford is not.
Agreed. Kluber is very likely to get one of the starts. But the sooner the Sox can move Crawford to the rotation, the better.
 

Harry Hooper

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Maybe a question for the doctors...is there anything to read into (optimistically) that it took two trips to the mound to decide to remove Sale? Like whatever it is wasn't painful enough for Sale to dip immediately, or call for Cora/trainer (they appeared to go out of their own accord/concern). That makes me think it can't be too too serious or dire. Hopefully it's just soreness/inflammation from throwing more than he has in the last three years, and a couple weeks off will be all he needs.

I didn't see the part of the game that Sale was in, but reading the two trips part is scary to me. It gives me a queasy feeling that Sale tried to bull his way through the inning and may have done serious damage by not coming out sooner. We'll find out eventually what is going on.

As to your comment about the availability of MRIs… Shields is the official MRI provider of the Red Sox. I don’t think they are going to run his Harvard Pilgrim card to get this one done. It would shock me if it hasn’t been already.
I can't help but observe that a few years back Beth Israel Deaconess was the official hospital for the Red Sox, yet all the players were sent to MGH. Of course, your point about very prompt assessment of Sale is 100% valid.
 

chrisfont9

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Agreed. Kluber is very likely to get one of the starts. But the sooner the Sox can move Crawford to the rotation, the better.
They have 8 days to decide. I can't imagine not needing someone there even in the best case outcome for Sale. So unless Kluber is shockingly good tomorrow, they will be moving fast to set someone up for that second Yankees start. I don't see anyone on Worcester that you'd bring up for a spot start. Mata is the only guy I think they would even consider, but he's hurt.

I guess the other thing they could do is to throw a spot starter or other temporary arrangement (e.g. shared start) at one of the Cleveland games, a vastly less intense environment, and save their regular starters for the Yankee series.
 

JM3

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Crawford might not be as stretched out as he was earlier in the season, but see no reason he couldn't give at least 4 or 5 innings in a start.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Agreed. Kluber is very likely to get one of the starts. But the sooner the Sox can move Crawford to the rotation, the better.
Why? Career wise, he’s got a 6.22 ERA and 858 OPS against as a starter, and 3.35 / 592 as a reliever. Pretty small samples, and I’m not opposed to him getting another opportunity in the rotation but there’s a fairly decent chance that he’s best used as a reliever for this team. Of course- the same may be true for Houck, Winckowski, and perhaps Whitlock too.
 

AB in DC

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At this point, if the Sox don't have a prayer of winning the WS, might as well see if Kluber can rediscover enough of his old form so the Sox can get some prospect for him at the trade deadline.
 

Benj4ever

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Why? Career wise, he’s got a 6.22 ERA and 858 OPS against as a starter, and 3.35 / 592 as a reliever. Pretty small samples, and I’m not opposed to him getting another opportunity in the rotation but there’s a fairly decent chance that he’s best used as a reliever for this team. Of course- the same may be true for Houck, Winckowski, and perhaps Whitlock too.
Why? Because, for me, he passes the eye test as a starter, and he's much more valuable as a starter than a long reliever.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Crawford might not be as stretched out as he was earlier in the season, but see no reason he couldn't give at least 4 or 5 innings in a start.
It's been over a month since he's thrown at least four innings (4/28 in relief against Cleveland, 52 pitches). His high pitch count since returning from the IL is 42 pitches (2 IP). I think if they wanted to move him to the rotation, it would be at least a couple starts before they could rely on him going 4-5 innings.
 

pjheff

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The interview started ominously, and his mood was somber, but when asked, he said that the shoulder isn’t as bad as the episode in 2018. It ended more optimistically than it began.
 

JM3

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Red(s)HawksFan

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3 innings, 40 pitches. Looked good.

I wonder who starts Wednesday? It’s Houck, Bello, Paxton the next three. Kluber or Crawford seem like the logical choices.
Neither Kluber (6 pitches) or Crawford should need a full starter's rest to be ready for Wednesday. I would guess Cora sees how the next few games play out and goes with the guy he needs less in the meantime.
 

JM3

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3 innings, 40 pitches. Looked good.


Neither Kluber (6 pitches) or Crawford should need a full starter's rest to be ready for Wednesday. I would guess Cora sees how the next few games play out and goes with the guy he needs less in the meantime.
Yup, I was going to post "you win" but couldn't find a good Tweet in the moment to add to the post so moved on with my day lol

If they could have got a 4th inning out of him yesterday everything might have worked out better, though.

Seems sensible to give him 1st crack at the newly opened spot.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Moving Crawford to the rotation seems like a pretty big blow to the bullpen; would really need Kluber or Pivetta to step up in those spots in which Kutter has excelled. Crawford has been so much more effective as a reliever…but, perhaps this is a good opportunity to see if his improvement transfers over to a starting role? Doesn’t feel like any great solution here.

Feels like the pitching staff really needs Schreiber back.
 

JM3

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Moving Crawford to the rotation seems like a pretty big blow to the bullpen; would really need Kluber or Pivetta to step up in those spots in which Kutter has excelled. Crawford has been so much more effective as a reliever…but, perhaps this is a good opportunity to see if his improvement transfers over to a starting role? Doesn’t feel like any great solution here.

Feels like the pitching staff really needs Schreiber back.
Eh, I mean he's been great... except his 1st game of the season when he allowed 7 runs in 4 innings. Since then 6 runs in 29.2 innings (1.82 ERA), including 2 in 8 as a starter.

But even though he's pitched great, they are 2-6 in games he's pitched in relief because he was mostly being used in that bulk role when his team is already getting hammered. It's good to get some competent innings out of that bulk role, but it's more important to get competent innings out of your starting pitcher.

The bullpen is definitely about 2 high leverage relievers short right now, but unless Kluber or Pivetta has figured out something significant that will translate back, they're only hurting themselves running them out every 5 days.

I think the minor league system is finally almost ready to pop out a couple good bullpen arms for the 1st time in like forever, but we shall see. Schreiber would definitely help a ton, & maybe Mills.
 

chawson

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Moving Crawford to the rotation seems like a pretty big blow to the bullpen; would really need Kluber or Pivetta to step up in those spots in which Kutter has excelled. Crawford has been so much more effective as a reliever…but, perhaps this is a good opportunity to see if his improvement transfers over to a starting role? Doesn’t feel like any great solution here.

Feels like the pitching staff really needs Schreiber back.
I don’t know if I see this as predictive. Crawford was excellent as a starter last year until getting hurt. Then in April of this year had one great start and one terrible one (in 40-something degree weather).

He doesn’t really have a times-through-the-order problem.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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His biggest problem as a starter has been giving up a ton of homers (seems to be a problem with all Sox starters, actually). His numbers as a reliever seem to be a little fluky, that .235 BABIP seems unsustainable.

SP: 1.7 HR, 2.9 BB, 8.6 K, 844 OPS, .329 BABIP
RP: 1.2 HR, 3.1 BB, 9.6 K, 592 OPS, .235 BABIP

He does seem to have a times through the order split. As a starter, 763 ops first time, 859 second time, 1032 third time+. As a reliever, he has been better against batters the second time he’s faced them but it’s a fairly small sample.

Ultimately though, I think I agree that the SP/RP splits probably don’t mean much and might as well give him the rotation slot; more theoretical upside than the other options.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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His biggest problem as a starter has been giving up a ton of homers (seems to be a problem with all Sox starters, actually). His numbers as a reliever seem to be a little fluky, that .235 BABIP seems unsustainable.

SP: 1.7 HR, 2.9 BB, 8.6 K, 844 OPS, .329 BABIP
RP: 1.2 HR, 3.1 BB, 9.6 K, 592 OPS, .235 BABIP

He does seem to have a times through the order split. As a starter, 763 ops first time, 859 second time, 1032 third time+. As a reliever, he has been better against batters the second time he’s faced them but it’s a fairly small sample.

Ultimately though, I think I agree that the SP/RP splits probably don’t mean much and might as well give him the rotation slot; more theoretical upside than the other options.
His third time through the order is, as with a lot of pitchers, a relatively small sample size (he's faced 49 batters the third time through the order). Not sure it's indicative of a trend or what he'll be forever.

That said, a lot gets made about the third time through the order thing, but isn't it fairly intuitive that other than your true aces/horses, every pitcher is going to get progressively worse each time through? I understand the stat supports the idea of shorter outings for starters and greater reliance on the bullpen for fresh looks to keep hitters off-balance. I'm not sure I give it a whole lot of value when it comes to evaluating a pitcher's best usage, especially if we're talking about young(er) pitchers.

Seems like getting guys out when they've seen you twice already and you're starting to fatigue is a skill that can only be honed with experience. I agree that if he's got upside potential (this could apply to Houck and Whitlock and even Winckowski), there's no reason to write him off as a starter based on something with which he doesn't yet have enough experience.