2023 Pats: Offseason

Saints Rest

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Football records are weird. Very few people really know the numbers off the top of their heads. Most basketball fans know that Wilt scored 100 points in a game, and almost every baseball fan above the age of 10 knows that Babe Ruth hit 60 homers, that Ted Williams hit .406, that Joe DiMaggio hit in 56 straight games, and that Bob Gibson had a 1.12 era.

But what's the record for most rushing yards in a season? Hell if I know, and I am a very big NFL fan. What's the record for most career passing TDs? Honestly, even though my favorite player ever holds the record, I don't know off the top of my head.

What I *do* know is: 7 rings for Brady. 6 rings for New England. But individual records and achievements for pro football? Most fans are like me - just don't know the numbers like we do in other sports (baseball in particular).
I agree with this. Football records (and all sports, really) don't hold nearly the same place in the collective consciousness that baseball records do.

I'd be hard-pressed to name the record-holders, let alone the numbers, for any of the following NFL records:
  • Career rushing yards
  • Single-season rushing yards
  • Career receiving yards
  • Single-season receiving yards
  • Career passing yards
  • Single-season passing yards
  • Career TDs scored
  • Career TDs thrown
  • Coaching wins
9 fairly important records. I could probably name the record-holders in 3 with certainty, and probably would guess right in 3 more, with the other 3 being multiple choice odds (1/3 or 1/4). Part of it is that in my lifetime, the records have changed hands a bunch (other than coaching wins). The QB records seemed to change a handful of times in the last 15 years alone.

Compare that to baseball. Career HR's has changed twice since WWII. Batting streak hasn't changed. .406 hasn't been bested (and that's not even a record holder!).
 

Deathofthebambino

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They are mid round picks-there was a roughly one in four chance either of them were going to make it. It’s not a productive exercise to look at the draft and say wow they blew a fourth round pick; everyone blew fourth round picks. The problem is they didn’t really nail their first round picks and they blew a lot-most-of mid round picks.
They didn't have a first round pick that year, they traded out of it and got Dugger and Uche in the 2nd (good move obviously, although I wanted them to trade up to get Justin Jefferson, so he didn't get snagged right in front of them, as he did)

The issue isn't always just hitting or missing on a pick, it's what you passed up on. Taking two tight ends, back to back, with 91 and 101 (in the third round, not the 4th mind you), you better hit on one of them.

Asiasi/Keene: Total of 7 career receptions in the NFL
Tight ends taken after them (so worse than mid round): Roughly 250 combined receptions.
Wide receivers taken after them: Over 500 combined receptions.

In addition to that, they traded UP to get both of them when they probably could have stood pat. There was only one tight end off the board before they took Asiasi, and I believe guys like Kiper had him him ranked as #7, and Keene at #8. They were both position reaches that they traded up to get.

How many kickers taken in the 5th round are blown picks, to the point where the guy never kicks in the NFL. The Pats took Rorhwasser at #159 in that draft, I think they may have traded up to get him too. The next kicker (only 3 were taken in total) who went 30 picks after Rorhwasser was Tyler Bass, the current starting kicker for the Bills, so he probably could have kicked in the weather here.

The 2019 receiving corps was a mess. Bill didn't even take a receiver in that draft. He took a fucking racist kicker instead of taking fliers on guys like Tyler Johnson, Darnell Mooney, KJ Osborn, Peoples-Jones, Quez Watkins, all guys who went after Rohrwasser.

We can credit BB for hitting on Gronk, and catching lightning in a bottle with Moss as a free agent and some of his other moves, and Welker and Edelman, etc. but he's also had 23 seasons of manning the ship. You better have some successes over that long a period of time, but the biggest one is Tom Brady. Tom Brady gave a lot of cover to BB's inability to find skill position guys for a long time, and it was only the greatness of Brady that turned the mediocre into serviceable/good players. It's why BB had to go out and take fliers on Josh Gordon and AB, and why, IMO, Tom Brady eventually had enough and left for TB. If NE had the skill position players in 2020 that TB had, there is no doubt in my mind that Brady would have been throwing passes here instead of Cam Newton.
 

Awesome Fossum

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I'd be hard-pressed to name the record-holders, let alone the numbers, for any of the following NFL records:
  • Career rushing yards
  • Single-season rushing yards
  • Career receiving yards
  • Single-season receiving yards
  • Career passing yards
  • Single-season passing yards
  • Career TDs scored
  • Career TDs thrown
  • Coaching wins
I had six with certainty and guessed right on a seventh. I think the numbers might not matter as much as baseball, but the record holders are definitely a thing.
 

Shelterdog

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They didn't have a first round pick that year, they traded out of it and got Dugger and Uche in the 2nd (good move obviously, although I wanted them to trade up to get Justin Jefferson, so he didn't get snagged right in front of them, as he did)

The issue isn't always just hitting or missing on a pick, it's what you passed up on. Taking two tight ends, back to back, with 91 and 101 (in the third round, not the 4th mind you), you better hit on one of them.

Asiasi/Keene: Total of 7 career receptions in the NFL
Tight ends taken after them (so worse than mid round): Roughly 250 combined receptions.
Wide receivers taken after them: Over 500 combined receptions.

In addition to that, they traded UP to get both of them when they probably could have stood pat. There was only one tight end off the board before they took Asiasi, and I believe guys like Kiper had him him ranked as #7, and Keene at #8. They were both position reaches that they traded up to get.

How many kickers taken in the 5th round are blown picks, to the point where the guy never kicks in the NFL. The Pats took Rorhwasser at #159 in that draft, I think they may have traded up to get him too. The next kicker (only 3 were taken in total) who went 30 picks after Rorhwasser was Tyler Bass, the current starting kicker for the Bills, so he probably could have kicked in the weather here.

The 2019 receiving corps was a mess. Bill didn't even take a receiver in that draft. He took a fucking racist kicker instead of taking fliers on guys like Tyler Johnson, Darnell Mooney, KJ Osborn, Peoples-Jones, Quez Watkins, all guys who went after Rohrwasser.

We can credit BB for hitting on Gronk, and catching lightning in a bottle with Moss as a free agent and some of his other moves, and Welker and Edelman, etc. but he's also had 23 seasons of manning the ship. You better have some successes over that long a period of time, but the biggest one is Tom Brady. Tom Brady gave a lot of cover to BB's inability to find skill position guys for a long time, and it was only the greatness of Brady that turned the mediocre into serviceable/good players. It's why BB had to go out and take fliers on Josh Gordon and AB, and why, IMO, Tom Brady eventually had enough and left for TB. If NE had the skill position players in 2020 that TB had, there is no doubt in my mind that Brady would have been throwing passes here instead of Cam Newton.
I disagree on Dalton and Keene. You're always going to blow some picks and there are often going to be players who you missed. There's going to be some reason in retrospect why any blown pick was a blown pick. But what kills them is not that they blew this pick or that pick, or that other players were better than rohrwasser who sucked, it's that they missed way too many picks over a four or five year period. Asiasai and Keen don't matter if you didn't also blow picks on Joejuan Williams and Harry and Winovich and ronnie perkins and so on.

Pass receivers are a particular point of weakness over the past decade and i certianly agree with that.
 

MuppetAsteriskTalk

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I agree with this. Football records (and all sports, really) don't hold nearly the same place in the collective consciousness that baseball records do.

I'd be hard-pressed to name the record-holders, let alone the numbers, for any of the following NFL records:
  • Career rushing yards
  • Single-season rushing yards
  • Career receiving yards
  • Single-season receiving yards
  • Career passing yards
  • Single-season passing yards
  • Career TDs scored
  • Career TDs thrown
  • Coaching wins
9 fairly important records. I could probably name the record-holders in 3 with certainty, and probably would guess right in 3 more, with the other 3 being multiple choice odds (1/3 or 1/4). Part of it is that in my lifetime, the records have changed hands a bunch (other than coaching wins). The QB records seemed to change a handful of times in the last 15 years alone.

Compare that to baseball. Career HR's has changed twice since WWII. Batting streak hasn't changed. .406 hasn't been bested (and that's not even a record holder!).
Got them all except for single-season receiving yards.
 

E5 Yaz

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I hadn't seen/heard this before and Curren could be making shit up, but BB is pissed at Mac for going outside the organization for help running the offense last year and Hoyer was let go in part because he also was not on board with the offensive "planning" and "coaching". (Quotation marks are for sarcasm, not direct attribution)

View: https://twitter.com/JonesandMego/status/1641897114748833813?s=20
Not trying to be flip, but ... who the heck knows anymore? Is it possible? Sure. Are people adding 2 and 2 getting 113? That's possible, too.

All we know is that after last season's experiment failed, they've brought in a legit OC and things might improve.
 

DJnVa

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The "outside the organizaiton" thing came up earlier in the offseason.

And Jones and Hoyer were "against the system" that BB scrapped and brought in BoB to fix? Whatever.
 

Jinhocho

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It seems like:

1) You can make a case that guys who were critical of the offense or coaching staff have not fared well this offseason in NE (Harris, Meyers gone, Mac fighting for job) and now add Hoyer to it.
2) You can also make a case that these were all somewhat logical/expected losses in the offseason and the team had planned/prepared for them and this is all hot air.

Which is right?
 

rodderick

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I thought the decision to put Patricia and Judge in charge of the offense was coaching malpractice by Bill the minute that move was announced, so I'm not saying he should get any slack for that, it was an awful decision that negatively impacted the team. On the other hand, Mac was a second year player who hadn't accomplished anything in professional football at the time the move was made, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a certain level of buy in even if you don't think the coaching is good enough. Of course, it's easy to say when it's not your career on the line and I 100% understand Mac's impulse, but if Bill got pissed over Mac calling Josh or Sarkesian or whatever I think it's also understandable to a degree.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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The "outside the organizaiton" thing came up earlier in the offseason.

And Jones and Hoyer were "against the system" that BB scrapped and brought in BoB to fix? Whatever.
They can be right in their frustration with the system, but wrong with the way that they expressed it, no? Also possible that key players not buying in helped ensure it was a disaster.
 

Cellar-Door

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Hoyer?
Hoyer hasn't been an NFL quality 3rd string QB for like 5 years, him NOT getting released would be far more surprising than him being let go
 

Shelterdog

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Hoyer?
Hoyer hasn't been an NFL quality 3rd string QB for like 5 years, him NOT getting released would be far more surprising than him being let go
That's actually why I thought the release was interesting. He's been absolute garbage for years so they were clearly keeping him on the roster for off-field reasons, so why release him now? The churn at the skill positions does kind of suggest to me that they either want a clean slate or perhaps even held the players partially accountable for the epically bad vibes the offensive unit had last year.
 

rodderick

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That's actually why I thought the release was interesting. He's been absolute garbage for years so they were clearly keeping him on the roster for off-field reasons, so why release him now? The churn at the skill positions does kind of suggest to me that they either want a clean slate or perhaps even held the players partially accountable for the epically bad vibes the offensive unit had last year.
I guess the more obvious explanation would be now they know Zappe is a competent backup and Mac has enough NFL experience.
 

Mystic Merlin

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Someone (or more than one someone) is clearly working the NBCSports circuit between Curran and Florio. It’s unusual to hear more or less contemporaneously that the Pats reportedly shopped a player, though that in and of itself doesn’t mean the Florio report is false. The near-trade of Gronk to Detroit in spring 2018 is the only other example of a confirmed non-trade leaked to the press, but that came out some time after the events (spring 2020).

It’s a curious bit of noise, I’ll say that, and bears monitoring.
 

BaseballJones

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If BB has been actively shopping Mac (which is very different from listening to offers if people are calling about Mac), then it seems like New England needs to target a QB in the draft. Because it means that you don't really see Mac as your QB. And yeah, maybe you keep him for 2023 and hope he improves, but clearly you don't (right now) see him as your QB of the future. So you'd better be making plans for another QB to take over in 2024.
 

Shelterdog

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I guess the more obvious explanation would be now they know Zappe is a competent backup and Mac has enough NFL experience.
Certainly possible, and I'm sure these things aren't really done for one (or two or three) reasons. The fact that Hoyer lasted what, half a game before getting concussed might also make the Pats think that even having a reserve/emergency role is too much for him at his age.
 

NortheasternPJ

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If BB has been actively shopping Mac (which is very different from listening to offers if people are calling about Mac), then it seems like New England needs to target a QB in the draft. Because it means that you don't really see Mac as your QB. And yeah, maybe you keep him for 2023 and hope he improves, but clearly you don't (right now) see him as your QB of the future. So you'd better be making plans for another QB to take over in 2024.
Or they’re in on Jackson.
 

rodderick

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I don't know to what extent this Florio piece is true, but I just don't see a scenario in which Bill is happy with Mac Jones as his QB. Every statement and story paints the same picture, hard to believe it's all meaningless.
 

DJnVa

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Zack Cox is saying is that Mac reached out to some Alabama coaches.

Of course then BB brought in an Alabama coach to run the offense. And Mac was sitting on stage at McCourty's retirement thing a few weeks back. If BB is shopping him, that seems weird to me, but whatever.
 

lexrageorge

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The only real evidence of any friction between Bill and Mac is the fact that BB was very non-committal about naming him his starter for 2023, a marked contrast from last season. Doubt that would have anything about Mac reaching out to his old coaches, something that probably happens all the time among younger NFL players. Curran has been wrong about stuff before.

If Bill thinks Zappe is ready to start and the gap between him and Mac is small, it would indeed make sense for Bill to at least look at shopping Mac. And Florio's bleatings notwithstanding, the fact that Kraft "endorsed" Mac means zilch; Kraft, like Belichick, is never going to throw any of his players under the bus.
 

rodderick

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Zack Cox is saying is that Mac reached out to some Alabama coaches.

Of course then BB brought in an Alabama coach to run the offense. And Mac was sitting on stage at McCourty's retirement thing a few weeks back. If BB is shopping him, that seems weird to me, but whatever.
An Alabama coach Mac didn't work with, though. I highly doubt O'Brien is the guy Mac was venting to and trying to get outside coaching from. What's the relationship there?
 

Cellar-Door

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Someone (or more than one someone) is clearly working the NBCSports circuit between Curran and Florio. It’s unusual to hear more or less contemporaneously that the Pats reportedly shopped a player, though that in and of itself doesn’t mean the Florio report is false. The near-trade of Gronk to Detroit in spring 2018 is the only other example of a confirmed non-trade leaked to the press, but that came out some time after the events (spring 2020).

It’s a curious bit of noise, I’ll say that, and bears monitoring.
It's pretty clear that somebody at NBCSports/Profootballtalk has a disgruntled Pats employee in their texts, they've run like 20 stories on the Patriots in the last 2 weeks and all of them are lightly sourced speculation about how Bill is on the hot seat, or Mac and Bill are on the outs, or will Kraft fire Bill, etc.
 

Van Everyman

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FWIW, it would be a baller move for Bill to move on from Mac two years in. This isn't Ryan Leaf or Zack Wilson who had high expectations but were hot garbage right off the bat and never improved. It's a guy who had a clear ceiling but also a supposedly good head on his shoulders and was coachable. Usually teams hold on to middling guys if they can squint and see the upside and potential -- it's too cost-efficient not to. But if Bill thinks Mac isn't the guy--for whatever reason, from his footballing abilities to his failure to rise above the dysfunction as a second-year quarterback--I can see Bill being like, "This isn't the guy to lead my team" -- and exploring other options.

That said, I don't see it. Bill is famously discreet when making big moves so this would be out of character. But when you have two former MVPs just sitting there on the market .. who knows?
 

rodderick

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Super Nomario

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That's actually why I thought the release was interesting. He's been absolute garbage for years so they were clearly keeping him on the roster for off-field reasons, so why release him now? The churn at the skill positions does kind of suggest to me that they either want a clean slate or perhaps even held the players partially accountable for the epically bad vibes the offensive unit had last year.
Hoyer had guaranteed salary for 2023; he still counts for $1.6 million on the 2023 cap. So it's curious from that standpoint, too. I think releasing him wound up not saving any money when factoring in the top-51 rule.

I guess the more obvious explanation would be now they know Zappe is a competent backup and Mac has enough NFL experience.
It's 90-man roster season, though. I don't think they would enter camp with just two quarterbacks; they'll need a third at some point. Releasing Hoyer wasn't surprising; releasing Hoyer when they did was surprising.
 

reggiecleveland

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Coaches will move on from a tactic or strategy simply because the players are unable or unwilling to execute them. But, the attitude and effort level of the athlete, even after the coach has moved on still reflects on the athlete.
 

Shelterdog

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Hoyer had guaranteed salary for 2023; he still counts for $1.6 million on the 2023 cap. So it's curious from that standpoint, too. I think releasing him wound up not saving any money when factoring in the top-51 rule.
Right. And Hoyer's value as a kind of Crash Davis is presumably non zero in the off season when Zappe/Mac can't access the coaching staff as a much.Not worthy worrying about too much but if we heard a story in three years about Bill saying yeah, 2022 was a shitshow, i put the wrong coaches in but the veteran offensive players were fucking babies about it, I'd believe it.
 

BigJimEd

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Yep, but not so much Bill's supposed reaction?
That's come up before.
It's 90-man roster season, though. I don't think they would enter camp with just two quarterbacks; they'll need a third at some point. Releasing Hoyer wasn't surprising; releasing Hoyer when they did was surprising.
Was it? If Patriots had no interest in Hoyer being a backup next year why not waive him right away? Gives him a chance to catch on. I don't see any legit reason to wait. I think all involved knew this was a very real possibility when they agreed to the 2 year deal.
 

rodderick

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Bowser

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It's pretty clear that somebody at NBCSports/Profootballtalk has a disgruntled Pats employee in their texts, they've run like 20 stories on the Patriots in the last 2 weeks and all of them are lightly sourced speculation about how Bill is on the hot seat, or Mac and Bill are on the outs, or will Kraft fire Bill, etc.
Matty P, come on down.
 

ehaz

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Richardson's not gonna drop to #14. The only (not very) realistic scenario I could see happening is something along the lines of:

- Stroud and Young go #1 and #2 to CAR and HOU
- IND really likes Levis as has been reported and takes him at #4
- SEA and DET go non-QB at #5 and #6
- LV trades #7 to NE for Mac Jones + #14. NE selects Richardson at #7.
 

rodderick

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Richardson's not gonna drop to #14. The only (not very) realistic scenario I could see happening is something along the lines of:

- Stroud and Young go #1 and #2 to CAR and HOU
- IND really likes Levis as has been reported and takes him at #4
- SEA and DET go non-QB at #5 and #6
- LV trades #7 to NE for Mac Jones + #14. NE selects Richardson at #7.
I actually think the only realistic scenario is praying Carolina doesn't grab him and trading with Arizona. He ain't gonna be there at 7 either.
 

ehaz

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I actually think the only realistic scenario is praying Carolina doesn't grab him and trading with Arizona. He ain't gonna be there at 7 either.
Yeah you're probably right. I wouldn't be shocked if the Colts really are happy with Levis, as wild as I think that is, because they're the Colts. But you'd figure someone trades up to #3, or at very least, SEA/DET are more than happy to have Richardson sit behind Geno/Goff for a year of seasoning.