2023 NCAA Womens basketball tournament

nolasoxfan

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Yup the Clark-Reese thing in is a non story, but sucks that it is being argued in racial terms online. One side is rightfully defensive (see: all of American history) of how Reese is being portrayed versus a player of the pale persuasion doing similar things, and the other side is being intentionally obtuse and non-empathetic. I think the two actions are not EXACTLY the same since one occurred in the flow of the game while the other was a good long chase down after the game, but none of this means all that much in the grand scheme. Although I thought based on NBA twitter that kids this young would be "sub-tweeting" after the game instead (hand/face/ring emojis).
You succinctly summarized how I feel about the issue.
IMHO, Reese displayed a lack of grace in victory, and it's fair to call her out for it.
 

nolasoxfan

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ESPN with an article here on the double standard of race in sports, coming off the Reese/Clark thing.

https://andscape.com/features/lsus-angel-reese-iowas-caitlin-clark-and-the-double-standards-of-race-in-sports/
Rhoden takes great care to avoid the differences in context of the "you can't see me gestures" done by Clark and Reese. Reese chased down Clark after the game had ended. That's not trash-talking in-game, when competition is in progress (e.g., Clark), that's a lack of grace and being a poor sport in victory. For me, it's that simple, and any talk of double standard doesn't apply.
 
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InstaFace

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Eh. Clark reminds me of Bird and I've seen many others saying the same. The viral moment of Clark dismissively waving off the SC player on the perimeter, "I don't need to guard you," ie "you suck," that was straight out of the Bird playbook - not that specific gesture maybe, but Bird showed disdain for his opponents in similar ways. Karma's a bitch.

Not joining the handshake line is classless, I agree.
I'm good with that sort of stuff during the game, when it can be chalked up to competitiveness. What happens on the floor stays on the floor, Don't dish it out if you can't take it, etc.

After the game, NBA players who literally brawled with each other will shake hands and smile. If you can't switch out of game mode after a minute or two, it's a lack of sportsmanship imo. Same with press conferences.
 

reggiecleveland

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ESPN with an article here on the double standard of race in sports, coming off the Reese/Clark thing.

https://andscape.com/features/lsus-angel-reese-iowas-caitlin-clark-and-the-double-standards-of-race-in-sports/
There is a big difference between making a gesture in a game, especially a gesture that ignores the person you are giving it to and following a player around after the game is over begging for her attention. Had it been reversed and Clark followed her around like that, kept talking about her in the post game, and the next day, she would be getting murdered in the media. Also, Reese probably responds physically if Clark does that to her after a championship game.

But I get it.

But, there is a clear element of race in this. In short, the black female athletes have a much worse deal than black male athletes, so their resentment of seemingly privileged white players is closer to boiling over. And while society can accept Embid flattening Payton Pritchard the black women are correct they would never be allowed to knock down a cute white girl like Hailey Van Lith or Caitlin Clark no matter what they say.
 

strek1

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There is a big difference between making a gesture in a game, especially a gesture that ignores the person you are giving it to and following a player around after the game is over begging for her attention. Had it been reversed and Clark followed her around like that, kept talking about her in the post game, and the next day, she would be getting murdered in the media. Also, Reese probably responds physically if Clark does that to her after a championship game.

But I get it.

But, there is a clear element of race in this. In short, the black female athletes have a much worse deal than black male athletes, so their resentment of seemingly privileged white players is closer to boiling over. And while society can accept Embid flattening Payton Pritchard the black women are correct they would never be allowed to knock down a cute white girl like Hailey Van Lith or Caitlin Clark no matter what they say.
That's the thing that separates this from all the YouTube examples of taunting and mocking posted in the men's sports from the past 24 hours following this. Reese's team just won a game , and not just any game but a National Championship. And she chooses to consciously follow around an opponent on the floor and mock her? It was not a spontaneous act done in the heat of battle. The battle was over. And she forfeits the celebration with her team who just pulled off an unlikely championship to follow around the popular girl and taunt her. We have never seen that before. As evidenced from her first remarks during the press conference she is clearly the one with the race problem. That's so unfortunate to carry those sour grapes into what should be moments of pure joy for her team. She has a lot of growing up to do sadly.
 

luckiestman

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I don’t buy the postgame makes it so different narrative. Shit talkers code is we are willing to accept the consequences. If I was Clarke and someone shit talked me after a game they beat me at I would think “well, I guess I had that coming”. Live by the sword die by the sword.
 
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joe dokes

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I don’t buy the postgame makes it so different narrative. Shit talkers code is we are willing to accept the consequences. If I was Clarke and someone shit talked me after a game they beat me at I would think “we’ll, I guess I had that coming”. Live by the sword die by the sword.
To that end, I dont think Clark has said anything at all about it. Seems like *she* sees it that way.
 

Cellar-Door

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I think the focus on Reese is dumb and tinged with racism. If you want to impugn her character, that she willingly plays for Kim Mulkey when she had so many other options is a far better critique.

Though even that is harsh on a teenager, it's on the trash people who are ADs, and the boosters who don't care about the players at all as long as they get wins.
 

johnmd20

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In this instance, it's the Caitlin Clarke effect. Her Iowa games were all records for the Sweet 16, the Elite 8, and the final 4. And now for the final.

Still amazing numbers and that is awesome. But Clarke was Steph Curry this tournament and it was impressive to watch. And people did. And then the refs got involved.

edit - speaking of ratings, the men's game tips off at 9:20pm tonight. That time is comical and basically wipes out approximately 30% of the potential viewers.
 

ifmanis5

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Last year's final Kansas/UNC did 18 million. But it also aired simultaneously across multiple networks to juice the numbers a bit.
This year's Super Bowl did 113 million viewers which is why the NFL is treated differently than everything else.
 

amh03

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The timing is irrelevant in my opinion. And if this were 2 men it would be a non-story. I know Tom Brady has pulled similar bits after games. Not only did Caitlin repeatedly motion “you can’t see me” in previous games, she also waved off the S. Carolina player she was supposed to be defending against…again multiple times. I found that to be enormously disrespectful but not a peep from anyone…from the analysts or here.

ESPN with an article here on the double standard of race in sports, coming off the Reese/Clark thing.

https://andscape.com/features/lsus-angel-reese-iowas-caitlin-clark-and-the-double-standards-of-race-in-sports/
Thanks for posting that link, @BaseballJones! Heard Rhoden on NPR…think his perspective is worth considering. Loved the way he ended it…

What I saw on Sunday was an outstanding LSU team competing against Iowa on a level playing field. Reese simply gave Clark a dose of her own medicine, and the angry social media reaction to this leveling up reminds me of my favorite unattributed quote: When you’re accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.
 

CFB_Rules

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The timing is irrelevant in my opinion. And if this were 2 men it would be a non-story. I know Tom Brady has pulled similar bits after games.
Just off the top of my head Richard Sherman did this to Michael Crabtree and got absolutely crushed by the media for it.

EDIT: I don’t remember Brady ever doing this. If you have an example though I’m happy to be corrected.
 
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joe dokes

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The timing is irrelevant in my opinion. And if this were 2 men it would be a non-story. I know Tom Brady has pulled similar bits after games. Not only did Caitlin repeatedly motion “you can’t see me” in previous games, she also waved off the S. Carolina player she was supposed to be defending against…again multiple times. I found that to be enormously disrespectful but not a peep from anyone…from the analysts or here.



Thanks for posting that link, @BaseballJones! Heard Rhoden on NPR…think his perspective is worth considering. Loved the way he ended it…
"Disrespect" for letting someone shoot uncontested is quite a bit different from post-game stuff. But, as I said, Clark doesn't seem to care.

Besides, LSU players have to do something to get the attention on them, instead of their coach.:eek:
 

DJnVa

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I don’t buy the postgame makes it so different narrative. Shit talkers code is we are willing to accept the consequences. If I was Clarke and someone shit talked me after a game they beat me at I would think “well, I guess I had that coming”. Live by the sword die by the sword.
I don't think Clark is bothered. It's our extremely online USA that is.

And now Jill Biden saying Iowa should come to White House too? LOL
 

Pablo's TB Lover

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You succinctly summarized how I feel about the issue.
IMHO, Reese displayed a lack of grace in victory, and it's fair to call her out for it.
You kind of missed my overall point by cherrypicking that one section. I don't think this rises to the level of "calling her out" for it. For crissakes there are almost as many media articles about this as the game itself. It rose to the level of me stopping and saying under my breath "huh, that was a bit much" then moving on.

As mentioned above, Clark herself does not seem to be taking much offense. Even if she is, I think the vitriol thrown towards Reese has been tenfold the momentary hurt Clark could have felt.

Jill Biden suggested that Iowa also be invited to the White House. Read the room, Dr. Biden.
Between Mulkey's politics and now the LSU players themselves probably offended, I think the Bidens have managed to turn off the whole program from wanting to go to the White House.
 

nolasoxfan

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You kind of missed my overall point by cherrypicking that one section. I don't think this rises to the level of "calling her out" for it. For crissakes there are almost as many media articles about this as the game itself. It rose to the level of me stopping and saying under my breath "huh, that was a bit much" then moving on.

As mentioned above, Clark herself does not seem to be taking much offense. Even if she is, I think the vitriol thrown towards Reese has been tenfold the momentary hurt Clark could have felt.
I didn’t mean you, specifically, were calling her out. I meant that in general it’s fair to say that what she did marked her as a poor winner.

Honestly, I’m a bit tired and bored with the issue. I’d much rather talk about how the other LSU players shot the friggin lights out and deserved the title.
 
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Marciano490

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I’m with luckiestman- can’t get taunted if you win. As for Reese, good for her for getting a bunch of attention in a sport where she’ll be paid shit and maybe sparking a conversation about racial double standards. Plus, I’ve never won a national title in anything. Feel like I’d want a couple minutes to just be hype.
 

Mystic Merlin

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I’m with luckiestman- can’t get taunted if you win. As for Reese, good for her for getting a bunch of attention in a sport where she’ll be paid shit and maybe sparking a conversation about racial double standards. Plus, I’ve never won a national title in anything. Feel like I’d want a couple minutes to just be hype.
It is telling that Clark herself is seemingly the least worked about it as anyone speaking publicly. Game respects game.
 

Remagellan

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Jill Biden suggested that Iowa also be invited to the White House. Read the room, Dr. Biden.
It's silly, but well-intentioned. I'm sure she's thinking that the season began in 2022, which was the 50th anniversary of Title IX, and they could turn the teams visit into a celebration of how far women's sports have come. But those seeking offense will find a way to be offended by the idea, because that's what they do.
 

Marciano490

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It is telling that Clark herself is seemingly the least worked about it as anyone speaking publicly. Game respects game.
Nobody gets a million Instagram followers without thinking what they’re gonna do with the biggest platform of their life. Good for Angel. She won the game. She used the hell out of her moment. Shit, I know her name now, Clark’s too.
 

strek1

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Nobody gets a million Instagram followers without thinking what they’re gonna do with the biggest platform of their life. Good for Angel. She won the game. She used the hell out of her moment. Shit, I know her name now, Clark’s too.
That's a twisted take on piss poor sportsmanship.
 

amh03

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SBNation weighs in - https://www.sbnation.com/2023/4/3/23667915/angel-reese-taunting-caitlin-clark-lsu-iowa

This is the most tame, benign shit-talking imaginable. Savage? Sure, but absolutely warranted. People loved Clark’s swagger when she taunted Louisville while dropping 41 points, but when Reese did the exact same thing, suddenly the conversation devolved into how “disrespectful” Reese was, how “classless” she acted, how Reese didn’t “win with grace.” All the hits, now sung loudly by the same chorus who posted Clark’s preening over Louisville non-stop.
Any attempts to demarcate or find differences in how Reese and Clark taunted is just part of the dog whistle. If you’re trying to bend over backwards to defend Clark while slamming Reese you are in serious need of introspection. These were two superstars, showing the swagger superstars show, and in the end Reese won this round, while Clark licked her wounds. With both Angel Reese and Caitlin Clark returning to school we might get to do this again next year, circling the date of when LSU and Iowa meet to see the next round in this rivalry.

There’s nothing “classless” about this. It’s what sports are all about.
 

CFB_Rules

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It’s what sports are all about.
Sports are all about taunting each other? That's certainly not true for NCAA level ball, where the NCAA is trying to do everything they can to get it out of the game. The NFL too has increased penalties and scrutiny for taunting type behavior.

It's funny how people have said nobody would be talking about this if it were men. It's partially true, because if it were men everyone would be whining about the officiating instead when it was rightfully penalized.

Here's the published points of emphasis for NCAAW officiating this year, right on the first pages of the rulebook:

"Players' taunting, baiting, finger-pointing, trash-talking, and inappropriate gestures have increased during the past several seasons. Players and coaches are permitted to celebrate an individual or team accomplishment, but they cannot direct that celebration towards their opponent."
 
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amh03

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Sports are all about taunting each other? That's certainly not true for NCAA level ball, where the NCAA is trying to do everything they can to get it out of the game. The NFL too has increased penalties and scrutiny for taunting type behavior.

It's funny how people have said nobody would be talking about this if it were men. It's partially true, because if it were men everyone would be whining about the officiating instead when it was rightfully penalized.

Here's the published points of emphasis for NCAAW officiating this year, right on the first pages of the rulebook:

"Players' taunting, baiting, finger-pointing, trash-talking, and inappropriate gestures have increased during the past several seasons. Players and coaches are permitted to celebrate an individual or team accomplishment, but they cannot direct that celebration towards their opponent."
First - the quote you attributed to me was from the article.

And second - regarding your rulebook excerpt - I guess I missed the criticism after this:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2HLUWB5jxs


or this:

View: https://twitter.com/i/status/1640182237005004801


Look - I don't disagree that it might be better if this wasn't part of the game, but it's clearly been attributed unfairly to black female players. I mean, seriously - when even the first lady is suggesting that the losing team (starting lineup all white) should come to the White House when an all black team wins their first national championship??? I'm sure we'll see her suggest that the losers in the men's competition should accompany the winners.

Edit - just to add - it was a phenomenal game! Clark is probably the single best female player to ever play the game (thus far) and deserves all the accolades she gets. LSU's team beat Iowa's...their team was just better overall and it was super fun to watch. We also now have a new rivalry, which (hopefully) will be fun to watch.

And another positive - people are talking about all of this (sportsmanship, black vs. white, female vs. male, equal evaluations, etc)...hopefully, in a productive way.
 

OCST

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I don’t buy the postgame makes it so different narrative. Shit talkers code is we are willing to accept the consequences. If I was Clarke and someone shit talked me after a game they beat me at I would think “well, I guess I had that coming”. Live by the sword die by the sword.
This.
 

Humphrey

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Here's the published points of emphasis for NCAAW officiating this year, right on the first pages of the rulebook:

"Players' taunting, baiting, finger-pointing, trash-talking, and inappropriate gestures have increased during the past several seasons. Players and coaches are permitted to celebrate an individual or team accomplishment, but they cannot direct that celebration towards their opponent."
Well, there ya go. If Clark directed her little celebrations towards Lville and others, the officials should have t-d her up. If Reese did what she did in Clark's face before the final buzzer, same thing. As I said before, they lost control of the game.
 

OCST

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First - the quote you attributed to me was from the article.

And second - regarding your rulebook excerpt - I guess I missed the criticism after this:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2HLUWB5jxs


or this:

View: https://twitter.com/i/status/1640182237005004801


Look - I don't disagree that it might be better if this wasn't part of the game, but it's clearly been attributed unfairly to black female players. I mean, seriously - when even the first lady is suggesting that the losing team (starting lineup all white) should come to the White House when an all black team wins their first national championship??? I'm sure we'll see her suggest that the losers in the men's competition should accompany the winners.
Dr Biden way out over her skis on this one. I’m sure Iowa would have the sense to decline. You earn that shit.
 

CFB_Rules

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First - the quote you attributed to me was from the article.
Yes I know but it was posted and quoted uncritically.

Sports leagues across the country have to deal with this attitude, though. In my state, all high school sports have a zero tolerance policy for taunting. It’s an automatic ejection and a FOUR game suspension for the first offense.

And I would agree with anyone who says that’s draconian. But it’s not harmless fun, either. I’ve worked in lots of leagues that adopt “pro rules, except trash talk allowed”. You know what always happens? They fight. Not even just semi-pro leagues, I worked a league consisting only of police officers and they beat the living shit out of each other on the field because someone took offense to a celebration.
 

amh03

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Yes I know but it was posted and quoted uncritically.
LOL...so you cherry-picked that one line? Hilarious...if you're going to attribute someone else's words to me then I'd actually have preferred you'd picked:

Any attempts to demarcate or find differences in how Reese and Clark taunted is just part of the dog whistle. If you’re trying to bend over backwards to defend Clark while slamming Reese you are in serious need of introspection.
 

CFB_Rules

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LOL...so you cherry-picked that one line? Hilarious...if you're going to attribute someone else's words to me then I'd actually have preferred you'd picked:
You chose which parts of the article you wanted to quote and post here, not me.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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I love that Clark does shit that pearl clutchers would regard as not entirely lady like at the highest level of competition and 10 million people watch women’s sports. I hate that when a transcendent athlete of color does much the same, but not exactly within the box of deportment that we say is appropriate, we lose our shit. It’s gross.

I’m not going to fight against the point made by an actual ref that taunting can lead to fighting and is a problem when not at the final four. Fine, conceded.

But if people cannot see the problem in the way this is covered it feels like maybe they are not looking quite hard enough.
 

DJnVa

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I’m with luckiestman- can’t get taunted if you win. As for Reese, good for her for getting a bunch of attention in a sport where she’ll be paid shit
Relatively be paid shit. She has more NIL deals than any player in college hoops--men or women.
 

CFB_Rules

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The right answer is: Caitlin Clark was wrong. Angel Reese was also wrong. Whether you want to call it pearl clutching or whatever, it’s specifically prohibited behavior by the rules of the game they agreed to when they signed up to play. Clark being wrong doesn’t make Reese less wrong.

But also, it’s possible to point out that somebody did something wrong without pointing out all of the other examples of other people who have also done wrong in the past. The majority of people watching Sunday were watching their first women’s basketball game of the year. That being the case, it’s highly likely they didn’t have deep knowledge of the wrongs committed by every player leading up to the game. I reject the idea that criticism of Reese can only come from a place of misogyny or racism.
 

johnmd20

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Criticism of Reese ONLY can come from a place of racism & misogyny.
So you are saying you cannot criticize any black woman ever? That seems like a little much.

Where does criticism of Luka Doncic being an out of shape puffball come from then?
 

amh03

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So you are saying you cannot criticize any black woman ever? That seems like a little much.
Nope…that’s not what I am saying.

This is an ongoing discussion…context matters.
 

bosox188

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Ultimately it didn't warrant much more than a "weird flex but ok" reaction (if that), and it sucks that it's drawn so much discussion. The word "classless" is perhaps my least favorite word in sports fandom, as a Pats fan I've associated its usage with sore losers ever since LaDainian Tomlinson said it after the Pats beat down the Chargers in the playoffs.

But there is a fun fact that really deserves to be getting more shine: Angel Reese and Jordan Hawkins are cousins, and now both national champs.
 

Kliq

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I thought in the moment it was weird she seemed like she rather taunt Clark than celebrate with her teammates, but that was the extent of it.

It turned into a big deal because the Facebook crowd, who didn't watch the game, will react to it as this big story. My Mom asked me about "that women's basketball player that taunted that other one, what a jerk!" yesterday. It's perfect fodder for that crowd, which turned it into a bigger deal. Clark and Iowa didn't say anything and have now totally downplayed it.
 

BigJimEd

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Any attempts to demarcate or find differences in how Reese and Clark taunted is just part of the dog whistle. If you’re trying to bend over backwards to defend Clark while slamming Reese you are in serious need of introspection.
This. Lot of people need to look inward.
 

CFB_Rules

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So you are saying you cannot criticize any black woman ever? That seems like a little much.

Where does criticism of Luka Doncic being an out of shape puffball come from then?
I believe they mean to say

"Criticism of ONLY Reese comes from a place of racism & misogyny. "

which is perfectly agreeable. Rather than the way you (and I, at first) read it, which is:

"Criticism of Reese can ONLY come from a place of racism & misogyny."

Which is absurd.
 

amh03

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Criticism of Reese ONLY can come from a place of racism & misogyny.
Criticism of Reese, absent criticism of another player doing the same thing…that’s why ONLY was characterized. And it’s also what happened.

Great quote from Caitlin. I agree completely with her.
 

Valek123

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I didn’t like the after the whistle stuff live, but straight up if Clark had no issue with the situation I withdraw all complaints. Felt bush league to me, but without rewatching every single possession and interaction between those two I take Clark’s comments to read we talked shit non stop back and forth and she had the upper hand at the buzzer.

I still wish this amazing matchup wasn’t so horrifically officiated as I think it effected Iowas depth more than LSU’s. The better team won and congrats to LSU, it was a great game plan and they executed at an absolutely amazing level.

Hidden in all this about Angel and Caitlyn‘s stuff was Jasmine Carson’s absolutely blistering performance. She was absolutely sensational, rose under the brightest lights to almost hit every single attempt and stretch Iowa hopelessly out on the court allowing the bigs to go to work on the glass.

I’ve never been a fan of Mulkey, but she put her team in a great place to win it all and let them play their style to close it out. Congrats to LSU, one hell of a run!
 

amh03

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Hidden in all this about Angel and Caitlyn‘s stuff was Jasmine Carson’s absolutely blistering performance. She was absolutely sensational, rose under the brightest lights to almost hit every single attempt and stretch Iowa hopelessly out on the court allowing the bigs to go to work on the glass.
So true!

And it seems as if the team feels that way…noticed both in the coverage of them arriving home as well as at the rally back at school, it was Carson carrying the trophy. She was amazing!