2022 PGA Tour

E5 Yaz

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i still don't understand the first bunker shot. What did he think he could do?
 

E5 Yaz

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Oregon state and local officials start to make noises about LIVTour event at Pumpkin Ridge

But in Oregon, there also is anger over the hit-and-run death of Fallon Smart in 2016. She was 15 when she was killed on a Portland street.
Saudi student Abdulrahman Sameer Noorah, who was in college in Oregon, was facing a trial on first-degree murder charges when he removed a tracking device and vanished. U.S. authorities believe the Saudi government helped arrange for a fake passport and provided a private jet for travel back to Saudi Arabia. The case was featured on "60 Minutes."
https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/34152449/liv-golf-headed-oregon-first-stop-us-many-local-officials-oppose-event
 

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cshea

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Less pressure too. It’s basically a bunch of exhibitions for a lot of money. Gotta ease the mind a bit and let him just play like he is playing with buddies.
 

BigMike

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Really tough day of golf to watch today, between Lexi Thompson throwing away the LPGA even, and then Theegala's mistake, and then lip-out on 18.

Although I thought the coverage was way over the top on him hitting his driver on 18. Kid played to win. Obviously I think going for the miracle 2nd shot was a mistake.
 

BaseballJones

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Less pressure too. It’s basically a bunch of exhibitions for a lot of money. Gotta ease the mind a bit and let him just play like he is playing with buddies.
Why are they "exhibitions" and not "real" tournaments? I get that without a cut it's a lot less pressure and everyone will make some money, but there's also tons of money on the line for winning. These guys won't treat them as exhibitions, I don't think. They'll go hard to win.
 

Average Reds

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Why are they "exhibitions" and not "real" tournaments? I get that without a cut it's a lot less pressure and everyone will make some money, but there's also tons of money on the line for winning. These guys won't treat them as exhibitions, I don't think. They'll go hard to win.
Throw in guaranteed appearance money for the big names and you’ve hit on precisely what makes them exhibitions.

The big names get their money no matter the outcome. The less-famous are guaranteed better money than they made on the PGA Tour no matter how badly they play. They also play less golf (54 vs 72 holes) and use a format (shotgun start) designed to minimize the grind of the professional game.

An incredibly well-compensated exhibition tour is exactly what this is.
 

BaseballJones

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Well even in these events, there's a much higher purse for the winner than for the guy who finishes last. No matter who you are. And there's professional prestige on the line. These guys will compete hard. It won't feel the same as the US Open obviously, but they won't compete against each other any less than they would in the Valspar Championship.

Yes the three round format is different than the PGA Tour. But so what? That doesn't make it not a real tournament. The International, despite using the wacky modified Stableford scoring system (no other event on tour did this) was still a real tournament.

The fact that the players will all make a lot more money doesn't mean they're not real tournaments. The difference between first place ($4 million) and 11th place ($500,000) is gargantuan. These guys concentrate on putts super hard just to finish 33rd instead of 34th, which might be a difference of a few thousand dollars (there were actually 6 guys this year tied at 33, and they made $41,600; the guys tied for 39th made $29,250). Think they won't compete HARD for several million dollars?

I dunno....I guess just because there's more money involved and there's no cut doesn't mean it's not a real tournament. It's DIFFERENT, that's for sure. Very different. But that doesn't mean it's just an exhibition. These guys won't treat it as just an exhibition, I don't think.
 

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They'll compete, for sure, but there's no pressure. There's no history or legacy here like having a putt to win Arnie's tournament at Bay Hill. There's no FedEx Cup points or World Ranking points or earning exemptions into majors. For the lower tier guys, there's no worrying about their next paycheck and accumulating enough points to retain their Tour card for the next season. At least through 1 event, there's no fans.

Sure, some guy will feel a little pressure if he has a putt to win $10 million vs.v $5 million or whatever, LIV is as low pressure as you can get. There are member-guests that will be more pressure packed than what LIV trots out.
 

BaseballJones

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I can see why as a fan you'd consider these to be exhibitions. They'll be new events, or things we've never heard of before. And the prize money makes it seem like nobody will really care since they'll all just be rolling in it.

But I find it incredibly hard to believe that professional golfers, who are used to taking their time to make sure they knock in a 3 foot putt that allows them to finish 33rd instead of 34th, thus earning them a few extra thousand dollars, will suddenly not compete hard, or won't feel pressure when a tournament is on the line. A guy like Mickelson maybe less so because he's getting $200 million. But not all these guys are like that. They're on their last round, in the top 10 with a chance to win, thus making an extra $3.5 million? Yeah, they'll feel the pressure, even if it seems ridiculous to US that they should feel any pressure in that moment.

And on the note about pressure...I mean...years ago my kid pitched for his little league all star team, getting a huge start in a big playoff game. He was 12. But he felt a TON of pressure. Of course TO THE GUYS IN THE EVENT, the member-guest you mentioned might make those folks feel the heat, just like my 12 year old felt the heat. To the pros in these LIV tournaments, I can't imagine, given their intense competitive nature and the money that's at stake, they will just be like, oh whatever, it doesn't matter if I win or not because I'm already rolling in the dough. No, they're going to feel it big time.

WE might not. But I suspect THEY will. They're pros after all - they play for pride and for money. Lots and lots of money. And yes, that matters to them.
 

cshea

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I just disagree. You almost never hear golf professionals say they were nervous over a shot/putt because of the money on the line. They don't get nervous because they have a putt to win $2.5 million, they get nervous because by making the putt they win their names goes on the same trophy that Jack and Tiger won. The guys finishing 33rd and 34th I would argure the FedEx Points and retaining their card is more at the top of their mind than the prize money. If a player misses, I don't think it's "Shit, I lost $25,000" its "Shit I fell to 127th in the FedEx Cup."

The LIV trophies are blank. The 48 guys who will tee it up at Pumpkin Ridge already have FU money. It's a hit and giggle. Additionally, the shotgun start makes it pretty difficult for the players to know where they actually stand in a tournament. There could be two guys tied playing their last hole 9 holes apart from each other, it's impossible for them to really know what's happening.
 

BaseballJones

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I just disagree. You almost never hear golf professionals say they were nervous over a shot/putt because of the money on the line. They don't get nervous because they have a putt to win $2.5 million, they get nervous because by making the putt they win their names goes on the same trophy that Jack and Tiger won. The guys finishing 33rd and 34th I would argure the FedEx Points and retaining their card is more at the top of their mind than the prize money. If a player misses, I don't think it's "Shit, I lost $25,000" its "Shit I fell to 127th in the FedEx Cup."

The LIV trophies are blank. The 48 guys who will tee it up at Pumpkin Ridge already have FU money. It's a hit and giggle. Additionally, the shotgun start makes it pretty difficult for the players to know where they actually stand in a tournament. There could be two guys tied playing their last hole 9 holes apart from each other, it's impossible for them to really know what's happening.
I assume they have leaderboards out on the course, right? If I'm playing a shotgun tournament, we are all starting and finishing at basically the same time (give or take a few minutes). If I'm heading into my 18th hole (whichever hole that happens to be), I look up at the leaderboard and it tells me in real time what the standings are. I see a guy one shot behind me, and I know he's also on his last hole. I don't see how that's an issue. I don't LIKE playing shotgun style because I don't want my round to start on the 5th and end on the 4th. But whatever, they'll figure that out.

I guess we'll just agree to disagree. I remember a story once of Gary Player taking a long time over a short putt for an 11. Asked afterward why he took so long over the putt when it was for an 11, he said, "Because an 11 is better than a 12." I just think these things matter to these guys. But I admit I could be wrong. Maybe they're all just going to play these rounds for fun knowing they're pocketing money regardless.
 

Comfortably Lomb

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Really tough day of golf to watch today, between Lexi Thompson throwing away the LPGA even, and then Theegala's mistake, and then lip-out on 18.

Although I thought the coverage was way over the top on him hitting his driver on 18. Kid played to win. Obviously I think going for the miracle 2nd shot was a mistake.
Lexi Thompson is really starting to put together a portfolio of collapses down the stretch on Sunday.
 

Senator Donut

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Lexi Thompson is really starting to put together a portfolio of collapses down the stretch on Sunday.
The Zalatoris comparisons are inevitable with second-place major finishes and those ugly short range misses. I'm surprised she hasn't starting arm-locking like he has or otherwise done some dramatically different to try to fix her stroke. She putts with her glove on, but I think she's always done it that way.
 

FL4WL3SS

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Throw in guaranteed appearance money for the big names and you’ve hit on precisely what makes them exhibitions.

The big names get their money no matter the outcome. The less-famous are guaranteed better money than they made on the PGA Tour no matter how badly they play. They also play less golf (54 vs 72 holes) and use a format (shotgun start) designed to minimize the grind of the professional game.

An incredibly well-compensated exhibition tour is exactly what this is.
Other sports offer guaranteed money, are those exhibitions too?
 

Average Reds

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Other sports offer guaranteed money, are those exhibitions too?
The decoupling of performance with reward is a pretty strong indicator of the difference between a serious competition and an exhibition. So, yes.

Does that mean that the players in LIV have no incentive to win? Of course not. But this isn’t a competition where players are trying to earn a living. This is about showering the talent with cash.

I have no problem with people who may enjoy watching it. That’s just how I view it.
 

FL4WL3SS

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The decoupling of performance with reward is a pretty strong indicator of the difference between a serious competition and an exhibition. So, yes.

Does that mean that the players in LIV have no incentive to win? Of course not. But this isn’t a competition where players are trying to earn a living. This is about showering the talent with cash.

I have no problem with people who may enjoy watching it. That’s just how I view it.
Is it decoupled though? I'm pretty sure the top players in the world got much better offers. There's still lots of incentive to be a big name and get more money.

I get that people don't like it, but they needed to start from somewhere. Step one is attracting talent.
 

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A key part of the equation is that the talent - even those not getting appearance money - is guaranteed to get paid every week. The only question is how much.

Again, this is just my view. I have no interest in watching this.
 

BaseballJones

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Is it decoupled though? I'm pretty sure the top players in the world got much better offers. There's still lots of incentive to be a big name and get more money.

I get that people don't like it, but they needed to start from somewhere. Step one is attracting talent.
There are lots of people on the LIV tour that will experience in their lives an enormous difference between a first place check and even an 11th place check. These pros are not going to just laugh around the course and treat it like an exhibition. They'll be there to win (or play as well as they can and make as much money as they can). It feels like an exhibition to fans maybe because it's so different from the normal PGA Tour. But different =/= exhibition.

I'm curious what the guys on the LIV tour think, because at the end of the day, my opinion is meaningless. It's whether THEY think it's a real tournament or not that counts.
 

Zomp

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So Chamblee tweeted something interesting that I cannot find a source on. But basically he said Schwartzel’s first place money wasn’t in addition to his guaranteed money. That it is essentially drawn against their money.

In another tweet he says he’s heard this from “many great sources close to the players”.



If true I’m surprised nobody has written about it yet and makes the talk of these being glorified exhibitions basically spot on.
 

E5 Yaz

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So, the "guaranteed" money is a Saudi-controlled bank that the players draw from depending on how they finish?
 

BaseballJones

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I don't understand this. So Schwartzel was guaranteed X amount of money. Ok cool. He then wins the tournament, which had a top prize of $4.7 million. Instead of paying him $4.7 million, they simply said, ok, that's coming out of your X amount of guaranteed money? I.e., he didn't win ANYTHING, really?

This sounds conspicuously like how advances work in the book publishing industry.
 

Senator Donut

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Oregon state and local officials start to make noises about LIVTour event at Pumpkin Ridge



https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/34152449/liv-golf-headed-oregon-first-stop-us-many-local-officials-oppose-event
It'll be fascinating to see the reaction LIV Golf gets in the United States. State-owned investments in sports are much more normalized in Europe, especially in soccer, where Qatar Airways, Etihad, and Emirates are on the shirt of about half of the top clubs. When Qatar Airways was in negotiations to sponsor Miami FC, backlash was swift and no deal was made. The participant list for LIV is also heavily tilted internationally, which could also be because it plans to be a truly global series, unlike the PGA Tour.

I think golf fans are fare less likely to care than soccer fans just based on political demographics, but this has the potential to be a back eye for LIV if there are protests which overshadow the golf.
 

Zomp

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I don't understand this. So Schwartzel was guaranteed X amount of money. Ok cool. He then wins the tournament, which had a top prize of $4.7 million. Instead of paying him $4.7 million, they simply said, ok, that's coming out of your X amount of guaranteed money? I.e., he didn't win ANYTHING, really?

This sounds conspicuously like how advances work in the book publishing industry.

That is what Chamblee is saying, yes.
 

snowmanny

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Do all the players on the Saudi Tour have guarantees? If so, then the prize money -initially at least, until some guarantees are met -is all fake.
 

Average Reds

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Do all the players on the Saudi Tour have guarantees? If so, then the prize money -initially at least, until some guarantees are met -is all fake.
Here’s a clue from a story about the three players announcing today. One of them was Eugenio Chacarra, a top amateur:

Speaking with Spanish golf journalist Hugo Costa, Chacarra said his LIV Gold recruitment happened very quickly, eventually leading to him committing for two years of events. If he plays well enough to finish among the top 32 players, he’ll be able to compete for a third year of events, too.
What they are describing is a two year contract with an option for a third year. Which means that Chacarra is getting guaranteed appearance money.

https://golf.com/news/matthew-wolff-and-top-amateur-join-liv-golf-portland-field/?amp=1

If that’s how they are dealing with amateurs, it stands to reason that every player has a similar deal. The amounts will differ - sometimes dramatically - but every player is guaranteed a minimum level of fairly extreme wealth in exchange for the Saudi’s controlling their career for the next two or three years.

This also tells me that what we have speculated about is true - the “competitions” are nothing more than exhibitions where they divvy up the pre-negotiated salaries. It’s not a pure exhibition, in the sense that, over time, players can presumably win more than they have been guaranteed - or, as is the case with Chacarra, they can be given a contract extension based on performance. But it’s pretty damn close.
 

cshea

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In today's news, PGA Tour and DP World Tour strengthened their alliance.

The Tour is pumping more money into the DP World Tour. Additionally the top 10 plyers in the RTD, that aren't already exempt, will gain a PGA Tour Card for the next season.

View: https://twitter.com/RyanLavnerGC/status/1541844616764342272?s=20&t=TjykM6BRIQEuVPMPhb-XEw


It looks like they are changing the Tour qualification from the KFT. Looks like it's now just 30 cards that will be awarded at the end of the playoffs, instead of 25 regular season and 25 playoffs. Then the top 5 and ties at Q School.

View: https://twitter.com/RyanLavnerGC/status/1541846970930692101?s=20&t=TjykM6BRIQEuVPMPhb-XEw