Relatedly, though, I seem to recall reading in years past about the "coaching of the coaches," which, I assume, would start with the coordinator. It seems to be holding up on the defensive side.
2022 Patriot Offense
- Thread starter Toe Nash
- Start date
Especially after seeing the screenshots that Bedard and the like were posting yesterday, for me it's not just a matter of Patricia and Judge being punching bags. The entire offensive coaching staff needs to be replaced.
Not sure if the wholesale changes are needed.
Focusing on TE and WR coaching, RB is not an issue, Nick Caley has been the TE coach for five seasons. The WR coaches are very green, Troy Brown in season one coaching that group along with Ross Douglas in his first season with the receivers. Douglas was with the defense last year and this is only his second year coaching. Outside of Patricia and Judge, the offensive assistants don't have much in terms of resumes as it relates to offense. Overall, it is a very inexperienced group when it comes to coaching offense or having a background involved in offense.
https://www.patriots.com/team/coaches-roster/
While I agree that the offense needs to change next year, how on earth could anyone tell if Bill Yates or Troy Brown or Ross Douglas (or even Joe Judge) is doing a good job?
EDIT: Also while I'm quite convinced the Pats offense sucks--they don't score points!--I have zero faith that anyone in the Boston media has the knowledge to say if a play is well-designed or not, and Bedard sitting there doing his video reviewing and declaring plays good play or bad plays is, too me, hysterical. (Kurt Warner doing the same? Sure, that has value to me).
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Well, the WR are having a bunch of issues, so it's not illogical.
My opinion is that they are missing that "role model" WR that sets the standard for all other WR on the team. The guy that works his ass off, runs great routes, that the rest of the guys look up to add respect and want to emulate. Edelman, Moss, Welker, Branch, etc.
Is there any difference between the "role model" WR you describe above and "a very talented WR"? Just about everyone agrees that the team would be better with a physically gifted player like Justin Jefferson.
The idea that the team needs a "role model" receiver seems hard to test. I'm not present at Patriots practices, nor in the locker room, so I have no idea who, if any, of the current WR is "working his ass off", nor who, if any, are respected by their peers. Thanks to members much more knowledgeable than I, it is possible to learn which receivers are running great routes. I think our discourse would be more satisfying if we stuck to topics for which there is clear objective evidence.
My brother and I watch games together. When things don't go the Pats way, my brother is quick to claim that "they just don't look like they want it." I don't know how to respond to such criticism. Trying to look inside the head of another human being (let alone eleven of them) is impossible, and can easily lead to baseless statements. If he'd say something like "boy, the left tackle completely missed his block" or "why did Jones hold onto the ball for so, so long?", we'd have a more constructive conversation.
The WR coaching could absolutely suck, but I certainly can't tell the difference between the player, the coaching, the scheme, the offensive system as a whole, etc. Troy Brown and Ross Douglas are both coaching the WRs--are they both doing their job? Neither? Who is coaching up Marcus Jones who seems to be doing well? Are the routes actually being run wrong or is Mac Jones throwing in the wrong place? Is the bad spacing a WR coaching issue or an overall offensive system? Are Brown and Douglas doing a good job of getting players ready for their specific matchups and diagnosing how to attack the DBs and helping with the overall gameplay? Sometimes coaches get responsibility for various scouting and play design elements (third down or whatever)--how are they doing at those jobs? There are so many questions that are so far from obvious to me that I certainly don't think I can judge if the WR coach is doing his job--and that's with unit that's one of the worst performing groups in the NFL!
Ultimately it's just insanely hard to judge if a coach is a a good coach or a bad coach and that becomes more and more true the further down the coaching rank you go.
EDIT: One sign of good coaching would be that a unit and it's players tend to improve over time. Not a lot of evidence of that on offense although specifically with WR the injuries confound the analysis a little.
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Strictly speaking, they don't have a coordinator. Now, in the past, they've often had a coordinator without naming a coordinator, but I get the sense that the offense is more of a collaborative process between Patricia, Judge, and Belichick rather than Patricia serving as a true coordinator. Patricia is calling plays on game days, but I'm not sure if he's plugged into the WR minutiae on this level. I'd be kind of surprised if he was, given that he's also responsible for coaching the OL.
I think Agholor is actually that kind of role model guy, the problem is Agholor sucks on the field.
I agree with this. The only thing that's for certain is that any issues are ultimately Belichick's responsibility and therefore fault. He has the power to change anything he doesn't like (whether coaches, techniques, or personnel) and any authority anyone else has is at Belichick's behest.
What is hard is, if outsiders like Orlovsky and Warner see these issues, you have to imagine Belichick and his cohort do as well, spending so much more time with things, yet things haven't improved at all over the course of the season and in many ways have gotten worse.
I agree that it's BB's responsibility and fault. This is getting away from the specifics of this conversation but this raises the big question of what RKK really can do with BB in the "BB is god" running a franchise model. RKK can say the offense wasn't good, make changes, BB says sure, I'm bringing in a wide receiver coach from UCLA, making Yates the full time OL coach and adding Ferentz to the coaching staff as the assistant OL coach and making Matty P the full time coordinator and stripping down the play calling process because the issue was really too many cooks in the kitchen, what is RKK supposed to do? He could order BB to sign a full time credible offensive coordinator but I'm dubious about how that would work, how much the coordinator would want to work here under those circumstances.
I'm sure BB sees more problems with the offense than Orlovsky and Warner do and the fact that the offense is getting worse if anything is at least partially a reflection on the coaching but you have the same problem--RT is a disaster, two tops WRs and two tops RBs have been missing time, MCDaniels certainly knows enough about the Pats system to mess with the players a little--that it's hard to divvy up the big old blame pie.
I ultimately think this is a good thing, though. You don't want the owner, a non-football person, interfering in the decisions that the head football person has decided is the right course of action. Kraft CAN do whatever he wants - it's his team - but in a well-functioning organization (which the Pats have been, obviously), he's not going to invoke that right very often. We can argue about whether Patricia is qualified or whether Belichick is still the right person to lead the organization, but I think it's pretty clear we don't want Kraft (or any non-football person) making football decisions. I'm not picking on Kraft, I think he's a great owner, but a lot of what makes him a great owner is he defers to Belichick's judgment.
My understanding (I thought it was from the Halberstam book, but I can't find it now) is that Kraft appreciates that Belichick answers his questions and explains things (going back to his 1997 stint post-Cleveland), so I imagine there will be questions and discussions. Probably there already have been several. But I expect Kraft will defer to Belichick at the end of the day.
I think one of the reasons they have gotten worse is you don't see a bunch of wrinkles built in. You don't see those creative gotchas that you would under JMD. You are seeing the same plays they use all season. The one innovative thing they were doing was their pony package but since Damien has been hurt they scrapped it. Like look at play action or lack thereof vs the Raiders - you would think that given the success of the run game (and I know this is not correlated) that they would use play action.
The Athletic talks about easy buttons in the passing game. Something the offense can execute reliably that puts their guys in an advantage. I ask you what is their easy button? They don't have one. It isn't play-action. It isn't RPO's. It isn't quick game. It isn't empty. It isn't tempo, etc etc etc.
The Athletic talks about easy buttons in the passing game. Something the offense can execute reliably that puts their guys in an advantage. I ask you what is their easy button? They don't have one. It isn't play-action. It isn't RPO's. It isn't quick game. It isn't empty. It isn't tempo, etc etc etc.
My suspicion is, given how much they've used PA in the past, how little they've used it this year, and how much they used it in the two Bailey Zappe weeks, is that Mac Jones doesn't like PA / under center / turning his back to the defense. And the blocking issues don't help (the INT vs Arizona came on an under center / PA look where Hunter Henry got pantsed).
I think they expected it to be the run game coming into the year but it's been MIA and I think they're grasping at straws week-to-week. They arguably had their best rushing performance of the season Sunday, so maybe they figured something out? I kind of doubt it though.
Did you notice for the next PA sequence they had Jonnu pass blocking vs Arizona? Could be a coincidence but Henry has had even fewer snaps at pass pro than Jonnu. I think that’s true for last year as well. Personally I do not think it’s a coincidence. Although it reminds me of Jonnu last year I think vs Hou or maybe IND where there was a big play to think Brandon Bolden but got called back because he held. Neither of their TEs can handle their blocking duties. Makes me want Darnell Washington even more. Jonnu is slightly better but they both suck.
Phil Perry did some analysis on this recently. The Pats over the 4 games prior to the Raiders, were actually really good when running plays under center.
https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/patriots/could-tweak-produce-drastically-different-results-patriots-offense
Mac was asked about it recently too:
"As I always say, I played in the wing-T in high school, so I was under center in every situation," he explained. "In college, it was the opposite. So I’ve done both. Then obviously in the NFL, done both. Like both. Don’t have a preference. I think either one is good. It’s all about executing the plays."
If it wasn't his preference, then why has there been so much shotgun called lately?
"I’m not sure," he said. "You’d have to ask the coaches. I know there’s specific things, but you’d have to ask them about it."
https://sports.yahoo.com/mac-jones-no-preference-shotgun-210100286.html#:~:text="As I always say, I,in the NFL, done both.
Orlovsky and Warner weighing in on the issues against Cinci. The offense is broken and hopefully BB has not broken Mac with stopgap hires on the offensive side.
Only redeeming part of these is I found Warner to be great in his breakdowns. Great follow.
View: https://twitter.com/danorlovsky7/status/1607443976931639296?s=46&t=HxtLaWaTQVTkQsPD3JRACg
View: https://twitter.com/kurt13warner/status/1607408398848462850?s=46&t=HxtLaWaTQVTkQsPD3JRACg
And these notes, from Warner, are about the Pats according to a couple Pats beat writers.
View: https://twitter.com/kurt13warner/status/1607354743193575424?s=46&t=HxtLaWaTQVTkQsPD3JRACg
Only redeeming part of these is I found Warner to be great in his breakdowns. Great follow.
View: https://twitter.com/danorlovsky7/status/1607443976931639296?s=46&t=HxtLaWaTQVTkQsPD3JRACg
View: https://twitter.com/kurt13warner/status/1607408398848462850?s=46&t=HxtLaWaTQVTkQsPD3JRACg
And these notes, from Warner, are about the Pats according to a couple Pats beat writers.
View: https://twitter.com/kurt13warner/status/1607354743193575424?s=46&t=HxtLaWaTQVTkQsPD3JRACg
I mean, do we think Belichick is, or is not, aware of this?
If he IS aware, do we think HE thinks it's a problem?
If he DOES think this is a problem, what do we think HE thinks is the solution?
If he IS aware, do we think HE thinks it's a problem?
If he DOES think this is a problem, what do we think HE thinks is the solution?
Belichick watches film, so it's a safe assumption that he is both (a) aware of the problem; and (b) does indeed believe it is a problem. I mean, I honestly cannot fathom the alternative answer to either question.
As for solution, the default and boring and unsatisfying answer is that there is not much to be done at this point in the season other than to keep practicing and going over film with the players and hope that the mistakes right themselves. Firing Patricia now is unlikely to solve anything.
I have to believe that he realizes changes will need to be made in the offseason. But it's impossible to know what he has in mind when it comes to changes. May or may not involve firing or reassigning Patricia. He will also be dealing with the fact that if Mayo leaves for Denver that he will lose a couple of lower level assistants as well.
I was driving before this past game and heard Belichick's pregame interview with Zolak. When asked about how well the Bengals have turned things around, Belichick said:
"They've done a great job building this team from where they were three years ago. To the players they've accumulated, the consistency that they've kept with you know, Coach Taylor and the rest of the coaching staff. They kept a lot of continuity there and it looks like that's paying off for them."
I heard that and thought Matty P is running the offense next year.
"They've done a great job building this team from where they were three years ago. To the players they've accumulated, the consistency that they've kept with you know, Coach Taylor and the rest of the coaching staff. They kept a lot of continuity there and it looks like that's paying off for them."
I heard that and thought Matty P is running the offense next year.
Think positive---Matty P will stay and coach the OL and BoB will get the offense.
This.
I remember when Zappe was running the offense for those couple weeks, there was a lot of criticism that Patricia was sabotaging Jones/running the good plays for Zappe etc. He was directly asked about it and replied something to the effect of -- we essentially run the same offense always, variation is due to what zappe knew versus jones AND when it came to playaction the play caller preference. He directly implied Jones wanted more gun and less PA.
Matty P can still get a check from the Pats but not be in charge of anything. Probably best for all concerned.
It would be tough to change completely and integrate new people but it's shocking that almost nothing has improved. I know they get limited real practice time but come on.
For shits and giggles I went back to the preseason / training camp thread and read the first 10 or so pages. Key things people were pointing out:
- All the beat writers were talking about how the offense, especially the OL was bad. Specifically, OL blowing assignments, getting blown up on running zone blocking plays, losing one-on-one blocks and miscommunicating on routes.
- Few quotes from posters:
- "From all I’ve read and heard, from sources we’ve watched and consumed and calibrated over many years, this is more RED FLAG-y than anything I can remember. In fact, I can’t think of what would be second. This sounds like an unprecedented disaster that they’d better fix fast."
- "Well, I'm full on panic mode. Last time a Pats team looked this bad, they won 16 of the next 17 games."
- "Everyone on the beat is saying the offense looks as bad as they can remember, so I believe it's concerning, especially when coupled with who they have running the show on that side of the ball and the lack of experience in the room. It's not a death sentence obviously, but it's not that early in the process either. "
- Thornton looked good in camp as well as Marcus and Jack Jones
- Lots of discussion about it probably being a good idea to cut Agholor
- Bourne looked poor in camp from many sources
- CBs looked good in camp and preseason games
So in that reddit forum the upvotes are Pat Patriot and the downvotes are clownface Goodell lol
Thanks - apologies for forgetting the link. I was surprised by how many people in the thread agreed that this is an ongoing and noticeably problematic issue for the 2022 Pats.
Memo to NEP OCs from OGG:
"Bunch formation" does not mean bunching receivers together in the middle of their routes.
"Bunch formation" does not mean bunching receivers together in the middle of their routes.
I wonder about this too. Stuff like WR running into each other (and the receiver spacing issues in general) seems like it would either be the play design or (more likely) the WR coaching. I'm guessing as OL coach, Patricia is not heavily involved in the nuances of how WR are taught to run their routes.
Now the shitty run blocking and the communication breakdowns in blitz pickup / pass protection? I'm sure Patricia deserves a good chunk of blame there. I just don't think he has a lot to do with the WR issues.
Watch this play from last year where Meyers quickly gets open:
View: https://twitter.com/ezlazar/status/1608469705714720770
And then watch this year where he stutter steps his way into a delayed route and into traffic
View: https://twitter.com/ezlazar/status/1607874222801702912
View: https://twitter.com/ezlazar/status/1608469705714720770
And then watch this year where he stutter steps his way into a delayed route and into traffic
View: https://twitter.com/ezlazar/status/1607874222801702912
Agreed. Last year Mac hits Jakobi on the right hash. This season he waits and hits him on the left. Why not throw earlier?
I also wonder what impact removing the FB from our offense has had. In the clip from last year, #58 bites hard on the PA, creating space for Jakobi behind him. Jakobi squares in at 10 yards, into the space vacated by the LB. In the other clip, Jakobi dicks around before getting into his route. If he breaks it off at 10 rather than 14 yards, the SAF likely commits earlier, creating room for Thornton behind him ... and giving Mac time to make that throw before the protection breaks down.
Yes, I get that this is partially Jakobi's fault, but throw the ball sooner, Mac. That's an easy 15 yard completion waiting to be had.
I also wonder what impact removing the FB from our offense has had. In the clip from last year, #58 bites hard on the PA, creating space for Jakobi behind him. Jakobi squares in at 10 yards, into the space vacated by the LB. In the other clip, Jakobi dicks around before getting into his route. If he breaks it off at 10 rather than 14 yards, the SAF likely commits earlier, creating room for Thornton behind him ... and giving Mac time to make that throw before the protection breaks down.
Yes, I get that this is partially Jakobi's fault, but throw the ball sooner, Mac. That's an easy 15 yard completion waiting to be had.
Those are different plays. The 2021 play, you've got 2 WR running routes to get open just past the sticks. It's a quick-hitter. The 2022 play is a Yankee concept - it's a deep shot designed to stress the post safety. The timing of the play is different.
Yeah, a lot of folks saying Mac should have thrown it earlier. Pause that video right when Mac hits his drop, right at the 4 second mark. Neither receiver are looking at him, and neither look his way for another 5+ steps. If Mac releases that when he hits his drop, the ball is early, and probably picked by the safety because Meyers never would have seen it coming.
OK, I get that these are different routes. Still, it seems like Jakobi needs to threaten the safety sooner to create space for Thornton. If he can get the safety leaning forward, Mac can drop it in behind him. The timing/execution is poor all around. It's not all on Mac for sure.
That aside, it looks like Mac still could have thrown it sooner. Instead, he seems to be waiting on Thorton and comes back to Jakobi late. This could have been a completion just inside the left hash rather than an incompletion outside it.
That aside, it looks like Mac still could have thrown it sooner. Instead, he seems to be waiting on Thorton and comes back to Jakobi late. This could have been a completion just inside the left hash rather than an incompletion outside it.
The play is designed for Thornton to create room for Meyers, rather than the other way around. The FS' job is to take away that deep middle route (he will often literally be referred to as the "post safety"). The QB is gonna peek to the deep route, but the throw is going to the in cut unless the FS is asleep.
I think Mac is watching the S, but I agree the timing is off. Whether that's on Mac or Jakobi or the play design or the rush speeding up the process, or some combination, I dunno.
It sure feels like the 2023 draft will need to be extremely offense heavy. They have needs at every position group except RB. Meanwhile the D looks like it probably only has needs at FS and DT/NT.
I think the Patriots D needs help at all 3 levels still. Line, definitely at linebacker, deep safety and they can use another corner. But they need to rebuild the offense especially the OL.
This team continues to need help across the board. Right now the safety position is very good but DMac might be done after this year so they need more help there. And as this year shows, you can never have too many quality corners. Their DL is improved for sure and looks strong, and the LBs are improved but could stand more serious upgrades.
On the offense, RB is in good shape, and I think the WRs are fine, but again, really could benefit from having a true WR1 stud. The OL is a mess and needs a TON of work. Plus they need a new punter and maybe even a new kicker.
On the offense, RB is in good shape, and I think the WRs are fine, but again, really could benefit from having a true WR1 stud. The OL is a mess and needs a TON of work. Plus they need a new punter and maybe even a new kicker.
I wish DMac had caught that INT, he'd be one away from Ty/Raymond for the all time team lead going into Buffalo. Looks like he'll never get there now.
Jarring stat from Curran today. They've scored fewer TDs than the Cam season, and their fewest since 2000. They've only been in the 20s or 30s six times: the first 4 BB years, 2020, and this year.
Important to remember how much different the offensive era is now, too.
These are the 16-game touchdown totals for the Patriots offense since Bill Belichick’s been head coach.
Important to remember how much different the offensive era is now, too.
These are the 16-game touchdown totals for the Patriots offense since Bill Belichick’s been head coach.
- 2022: 28
- 2021: 45
- 2020: 32
- 2019: 42
- 2018: 47
- 2017: 48
- 2016: 51
- 2015: 50
- 2014: 47
- 2013: 44
- 2012: 59
- 2011: 57
- 2010: 56
- 2009: 47
- 2008: 42
- 2007: 67
- 2006: 45
- 2005: 44
- 2004: 44
- 2003: 32
- 2002: 37
- 2001: 36
- 2000: 28
Add to that seven of this year's 28 have come from the defense and one on special teams. They have 20 offensive touchdowns this year ... which is nuts