He took 4 obvious roiders and threw Ortiz in. He also left others off that should have been on, so I take it as a troll job of Ortiz by throwing him in with the roiders. Maybe I’m wrong, but it is Mazz. Either way, I’ll take ir.
2022 Hall of Fame Class
- Thread starter E5 Yaz
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So he took whet to me are obviously the 3 best players on the Ballot (Bonds, ARod, Clemens). All people who without "steroirds would have gotten 97% of the vote or more (should have been 100)
Then you add in Manny who was a home town player Maz covered. Maybe not as sure a thing as the others, but another guy who in a world wihout Steroids in a mid 90% vote on his first ballot.
So you can make an argument he voted for the 4 best players on the Ballot, plus Ortiz.
I don't see how that is casting shade on Ortiz, by putting 4 better players on the ballot with him
So would you prefer he voted for obvious steroid users and snubbed Ortiz or that he vote for Ortiz and leave everyone else off?
I’ll take it back, he has voted Bonds/Clemens/Manny before, though strangely this is the first year for Arod?
https://baseball.vote/voters/tony-massarotti
I should have checked first.
https://baseball.vote/voters/tony-massarotti
I should have checked first.
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If he wanted buzz he would NOT have included Manny or Ortiz.
I don’t understand your argument at all
I don't get this take either. Mazz voted for what should be three slam dunks: ARod, Bonds and Clemens. He voted for the two best players that he covered every day in Manny and Ortiz. Should he voted for Wagner, Kent, Helton, Jones, Sosa, Sheffield, etc? Maybe. But maybe he didn't think that he saw the others enough to give him his vote, which is more of an evaluation of himself as a baseball observer. But at least he's honest and those other players aren't slam dunks. Or maybe he's a small Hall guy. IDK. But Mazz' ballot is justifiable.
Yeah, especially if you ignore steroids and take the 'who was most feared / well regarded at the time of playing' (i.e. ignoring the WAR-based discussions now), I think that's probably a pretty good top 5 (assuming you ignore Schilling for 'he's an asshole' reasons).
With analytics and better incorporation of defense, looking back, I think you can make a good case for at least Rolen and Kent (if not a couple others) above Manny. But it's definitely not anywhere close to as stupid as some of the other ballots discussed above.
I'm the last person to defend Massarotti, but wasn't he covering all these guys while they played? If he's still got a vote 15 years from now, when he debating Rafael Devers' candidacy, maybe that's a problem.
Imagine if Nolan Ryan took some of that Clemens stuff instead of Advil for his aches and pains, he'd probably still be throwing no-hitters and beating up third basemen.
Schilling, who doesn't want to be on the ballot, wants to go into the HoF as a Diamondback
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/diamondbacks/2022/01/06/curt-schilling-reiterates-baseball-hall-fame-team-preference-diamondbacks/9114337002/
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/diamondbacks/2022/01/06/curt-schilling-reiterates-baseball-hall-fame-team-preference-diamondbacks/9114337002/
The HoF should put Schilling in an Astros cap. They can say it's punishment for the sign stealing fiasco.
And by my quick math, Clemens had bWar of 92.6 from 84-97, and from I can tell McNamee said 1998 was the first injection year (I don't know if that was pre or post season, but his bWar in 98 was 8.1).
But that 92.6 puts Clemens above notable HoF such as : Spahn, Pedro, Nolan, Gibson, Halladay (bWar 65). I didn't go past there.
Neither of Kershaw nor Scherzer are going to catch 92 and both are likely to be HoF.
Clemens had a HoF career before the roids in 1998.
Im sure BB and Arod are similarly strong.
The refusal to vote for these guys is actually incredible. Clemens first half of his career , before roids, would slot in at #13 in HoF pitcher bWar, out of 84 pitchers. Oh and he had plenty of memorable moments, RoY, TWO 20 strikeout games, pitching triple crown (97) (another in 98).
If Clemens had dropped dead on Jan 1 1998, he would have been in the HoF years ago.
edit - links
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/clemero02.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_pitching.shtml
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Seriously, I don't know why people keep wanting to accommodate lying cheaters. It's not like he's offered an explanation, or even asked for anyone's forgiveness. He's just relying on entitlement. And people to make the argument for him.
What do you want Roger or the others to do? Public PR campaign?
Ford used to doctor balls, Perry would spit on them. Other pitchers likely used uppers. Recent generation of pitchers used enhancing stuff like Spider Tack etc, and some of them will make the HoF.
This holier than thou stuff is absurd. Many players cheated throughout the years. And I eliminated Roger's proven steroid years and he is still better than 80% of HoF pitchers. Koufax had a 12 year Hof Career with a total bWar of 53.1. Soo Roger's 13 year 'career' with 40 more bWar generated doesn't count?
I do think this thing where we are supposed to assume people were clean before the first time they got caught is quite naive.
ed- to be clear. He would have my vote. But I am not assuming he didn’t use something when he was on the Red Sox.
He's a roider and a cheater. He used illegal drugs to get a competitive advantage over other players. Step one might be for him to admit it and apologize. Burden's on him.
This is like "How to be Human, 101" stuff.
He's on his own for the Mindy McCready thing though.
Yup, no other cheaters or shitty humans made the HoF. Never. It is a paragon of ‘How to be human 101.’
Chop off his ‘98 onward years, still a hall of fame guy before then.
Plus, ya know, all these guys are compared to players of the same era, and in the late 90s early 00s, he still dominated many other roided players.
I say all this disliking Roger! I was born in 83, so my memories of him are early 90s and then bailing on us.
I got your arguments the first time you made them.
Take a bWar break and try to figure out my simple superseding one.
To be fair, McGwire was a much better liked player than Clemens and full contrition didn’t get him anywhere.
Illegal? Do better!
It was Bud encouraged!
Thanks for pumping Mindy into the conversation.
Clemens and Canseco were teammates in 1995-96. Seems the most likely point in time when he started juicing, if not earlier.
Harold Baines was teammates with Canseco and McGwire for 3 years. Seems likely he juiced since he was teammates with them. Let's kick him out.
I believe Clemens should be in. Just saying his juicing likely started long before 1998.
Bud might also be blamed for Billy, age 28, carefully. . .nurturing a friendship with a 15 year old, one who admits they immediately had sex at age 18. The parallels with cheating only after he crossed the magic HoF line are remarkable. Seems like upstanding character - a trustworthy fellow.
I never understood what it is about FanBois. Like, how does one throw ther sense of what is and isn't cheating out the window? And for a fat millionare's vanity? It's mind boggling.
What????? There were rumors when Clemens gained a lot of weight during his last 2 years with the Red Sox.
People's minds are mostly made up. Personally, I don't care at all if a player juiced. It's just how the game was played. An era of ridiculously bloated freaks hitting dingers and throwing hard fastballs into their 40s. Everyone, EVERYONE, knew players were on something at the time and it was totally fucking awesome baseball to watch. I would vote them all in. I was entertained.
Agreed. The only thing the steroid era does for me is inflate the bar for the numbers a bit. The era gets the asterisk. Mainly because we just can't know who else was doing it. To me, you don't have "steroid guys" you just have the ones that got caught.
I'm a fairly honest person. Honest enough to say if I played in that era, and everyone was not only doing steroids but it was practically encouraged and certainly expected, I'd do it.
However, I would stop when the crackdown started. I wouldn't be able to afford designer alternatives like the top tier cheaters. And, ultimately, I'd fess up and apologize. Steroids themselves aren't the issue for me. But how they handled the shift does factor in. I think this is what is blocking guys like Bonds, Clemens and ARod.
Personally, I let them all in, but include credible allegations on their plaques or at least group them around a steroid era exhibit that names names. But I see the Hall as history more than personal honor.