2022 Dolphins: Our coach is cooler than yours

soxhop411

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If the league cared about safety at all, they wouldn’t have added a 17th game, there wouldn’t be Thursday night football games at all, there wouldn’t be turf fields, etc.
and I agree with this as well
lets not forget this is the same league that tried to bury the results of a concussion study in 2016 that would have made the NFL look bad

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/24/sports/football/nfl-tried-to-influence-concussion-research-congressional-study-finds.html

As I said last night, the NFL cares little about player safety as everything they do is for fucking PR speak...

its going to take a death of an active player due to blunt trauma to the head or a congressional investigation for them to actually give a shit
 

BigSoxFan

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I'm asking this question seriously--do we know if the doctors saw the video of Tua tripping? I know they have tablets and what not but I could imagine a world where the spotter or someone says Tua tripped after hitting his head, they examine him, they ask him about tripping, he says its his back (and if the doctors hadn't seen the video that could be plausible) and they gave him him the no concussion diagnosis. And if you did clear him without seeing the video it becomes really hard to change your diagnosis or put him in the protocol or whatever and concede a mistake.
That’s a good question. I assumed the protocol would naturally look at the video in addition to speaking with the impacted player. That “trip” basically gave me Reggie Lewis flashbacks. It is so chilling to watch.
 

radsoxfan

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This is a terrible situation, and I understand your perspective here. But the question is: If Tua looked JUST FINE in the days following last week's game, and if the team's (and league's ??) medical experts completely cleared him, why would the coach - who isn't remotely a medical expert at all - not play him? If medical experts say, look, he's actually fine, totally good to go, it seems crazy to me that a coach would NOT play a guy in that situation.

I just don't know how this is on the coach, unless he saw something in Tua that made him think twice, and then he STILL put him in the game. But barring that, if the medical people give him a full thumbs up, seems like the coach did what the coach is hired to do.

I get that this may represent a flaw in the entire system, but I don't think the fault is with the HC.
The blaming of McDaniels is nonsensical, I agree 100%.

People are upset, perhaps rightfully so. But is misplaced and kind of strange to see actually.

As much as we may be concerned Tua had a concussion on Sunday, these are often not black and white issues. It’s entirely unfair to expect a coach to override a team of trained docs that did the evaluation.

We’re not talking about some moral failing of obeying an order you know to be reprehensible. We’re talking about listening to trained professionals making their (hopefully good faith) determination about player’s diagnosis.

I also don’t think there is a coach in league history that would have sat Tua last night, it’s wild to suggest otherwise.
 

SoxInTheMist

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The blaming of McDaniels is nonsensical, I agree 100%.

People are upset, perhaps rightfully so. But is misplaced and kind of strange to see actually.

As much as we may be concerned Tua had a concussion on Sunday, these are often not black and white issues. It’s entirely unfair to expect a coach to override a team of trained docs that did the evaluation.

We’re not talking about some moral failing of obeying an order you know to be reprehensible. We’re talking about a trained professional making their (hopefully good faith) determination about player’s diagnosis.

I also don’t think there is a coach in league history that would have sat Tua last night, it’s wild to suggest otherwise.
Grady Little would have left him in...
 

21st Century Sox

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I think the worst thing McDaniel said last night was that Tua was diagnosed with a concussion and "nothing more serious." That's a very alarming comment.
^^ This^^ The league still looks at concussions as "getting your bell rung" despite the science and discussion. This is a post game presser with little to no rehearsal, it is how NFL coaches feel. I thought the biggest tell regarding Tua's overall health going into the game was adding a 3rd string QB to the active roster for last night, when they did not do so yet this year.
 

riboflav

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I guess McDaniels could have gone to the owner and said he didn’t trust the medical staff and asked for a second opinion? Even that’s a stretch.

I know went to Yale and seems sharp, but it’s nonsensical to expect the coach to make medical decisions.
Honestly, in high school, coaches can sit out athletes for any suspected injury purpose regardless of what trainers and doctors say.
 

Marciano490

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Is it even possible for any type of back injury to cause the difficulties Tua had last week? I’ve never seen that except from head trauma, in which case I’ve seen that often.
 

8slim

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The blaming of McDaniels is nonsensical, I agree 100%.

People are upset, perhaps rightfully so. But is misplaced and kind of strange to see actually.

As much as we may be concerned Tua had a concussion on Sunday, these are often not black and white issues. It’s entirely unfair to expect a coach to override a team of trained docs that did the evaluation.

We’re not talking about some moral failing of obeying an order you know to be reprehensible. We’re talking about listening to trained professionals making their (hopefully good faith) determination about player’s diagnosis.

I also don’t think there is a coach in league history that would have sat Tua last night, it’s wild to suggest otherwise.
I agree with all of this.

And I'll add... what do you all expect? Pro football is a sport where adult men knowingly and willingly destroy their bodies for fame, glory, fun and money. The NFL has come a long way, but it'll never do enough to genuinely prioritize player safety, because it is not possible. Tackle football is not a safe sport. Period.

This situation completely sucks. Tua seems like a lovely guy and I hate to think that he's going to facing a lifetime of brain issues due to what's happened the past week. However, some of you are enraged. I mean, if you don't watch the NFL because of its barbarism then that's a fair emotion to have. Otherwise we're all complicit, and we're all going to be on our couches this Sunday at 1pm watching games. Someone, in some game, is going to be carted off with a life altering injury by 1:15pm. This is what everyone has signed up for.
 

BaseballJones

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Honestly, in high school, coaches can sit out athletes for any suspected injury purpose regardless of what trainers and doctors say.
Coaches can sit players for whatever reason they want. That's not in question. The issue really is that if the HC, who is NOT a medical guy at all, is told by the team's (and league's?) medical experts that a player is fully healthy and fully cleared to play, he's likely to play the guy unless there are OTHER reasons (disciplinary, performance, whatever) to not play him.
 

sodenj5

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^^ This^^ The league still looks at concussions as "getting your bell rung" despite the science and discussion. This is a post game presser with little to no rehearsal, it is how NFL coaches feel. I thought the biggest tell regarding Tua's overall health going into the game was adding a 3rd string QB to the active roster for last night, when they did not do so yet this year.
People have jumped on that comment a bit, and to be fair it doesn’t sound great. I do think the context of the situation matters.

When Tua is slammed like that, and his hands are in that fencing response immediately, combined with the previous week and a disclosed back injury, you probably fear that it could be something significantly worse than a concussion. He did sort of expound on that a little, but I don’t think McDaniel was trying to downplay the significance of a concussion.
 

BigSoxFan

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I agree with all of this.

And I'll add... what do you all expect? Pro football is a sport where adult men knowingly and willingly destroy their bodies for fame, glory, fun and money. The NFL has come a long way, but it'll never do enough to genuinely prioritize player safety, because it is not possible. Tackle football is not a safe sport. Period.

This situation completely sucks. Tua seems like a lovely guy and I hate to think that he's going to facing a lifetime of brain issues due to what's happened the past week. However, some of you are enraged. I mean, if you don't watch the NFL because of its barbarism then that's a fair emotion to have. Otherwise we're all complicit, and we're all going to be on our couches this Sunday at 1pm watching games. Someone, in some game, is going to be carted off with a life altering injury by 1:15pm. This is what everyone has signed up for.
There are things you can prevent and thing you can’t. You can’t prevent a 300 pound DL from tackling and injuring a QB during a play. Shit happens.

But what you CAN do is prevent a clearly-compromised player from going back into the meat grinder before he’s ready.

That’s what people are upset about, not the severity of injuries that we all accept can and will occur.
 

Shelterdog

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That’s a good question. I assumed the protocol would naturally look at the video in addition to speaking with the impacted player. That “trip” basically gave me Reggie Lewis flashbacks. It is so chilling to watch.
As we all might remember from spygate or the bengals videotaping thing (often forgotten but losing a third in 2021 still stings!) the NFL has a lot of very particular rules about what video is made available where during games. If memory serves (and I wasn't able to find a copy of the Game Operations Manual online, I think they try to keep that relatively confidential) you aren't able to have the television copy playing anywhere the coaching staff could access it. Anyhow, it's just a thought and you'd obviously hope that the doctors are able to see the video, if available, of the potential injury or symptoms.
 

Average Reds

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People have jumped on that comment a bit, and to be fair it doesn’t sound great. I do think the context of the situation matters.

When Tua is slammed like that, and his hands are in that fencing response immediately, combined with the previous week and a disclosed back injury, you probably fear that it could be something significantly worse than a concussion. He did sort of expound on that a little, but I don’t think McDaniel was trying to downplay the significance of a concussion.
I would agree that it’s a poor turn of phrase and that context is important.

At the same time, it’s indicative of how the NFL looks at their players (as fungible assets) and the whole subject of concussions. (An annoyance rather than a serious injury concern.)

That last sentence isn’t a criticism of McDaniel. His attitudes are no worse/different than any other coach. It’s a sport-wide problem.
 

Fishercat

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I agree with all of this.

And I'll add... what do you all expect? Pro football is a sport where adult men knowingly and willingly destroy their bodies for fame, glory, fun and money. The NFL has come a long way, but it'll never do enough to genuinely prioritize player safety, because it is not possible. Tackle football is not a safe sport. Period.

This situation completely sucks. Tua seems like a lovely guy and I hate to think that he's going to facing a lifetime of brain issues due to what's happened the past week. However, some of you are enraged. I mean, if you don't watch the NFL because of its barbarism then that's a fair emotion to have. Otherwise we're all complicit, and we're all going to be on our couches this Sunday at 1pm watching games. Someone, in some game, is going to be carted off with a life altering injury by 1:15pm. This is what everyone has signed up for.
Just to add on to this...I've kind of disengaged from football as a sport in the past three years. It's rarely on TV anymore, I don't plan around it, I see clips for things like this...it's nice. The cavalier and frankly terrible treatment by the NFL of head injury issues is a great reason to stop watching football and enjoy your Sundays again if you're so inclined. I think 8slim's absolutely right, I do think folks who spend 1-11 on Sundays and Mondays/Thursdays in front of the TV watching games should consider the alternative here if this disgusts them. Because as much as I wish they would do it differently, I don't think any NFL team handles this much differently* unless their doctors are making different calls.

* Like... the doctor who punctured Tyrod Taylor's lung who is being sued for malpractice by Taylor is still the Chargers team doc when they have one of the two or three most valuable QBs in the league (as a long term investment) on their roster. Teams may not be prioritizing long term player safety in their medical staffs here...
 

cshea

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As we all might remember from spygate or the bengals videotaping thing (often forgotten but losing a third in 2021 still stings!) the NFL has a lot of very particular rules about what video is made available where during games. If memory serves (and I wasn't able to find a copy of the Game Operations Manual online, I think they try to keep that relatively confidential) you aren't able to have the television copy playing anywhere the coaching staff could access it. Anyhow, it's just a thought and you'd obviously hope that the doctors are able to see the video, if available, of the potential injury or symptoms.
Do they have spotters? I would assume the independent neurologists / spotter would need to have access to all TV feeds to do that job.
 

radsoxfan

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Honestly, in high school, coaches can sit out athletes for any suspected injury purpose regardless of what trainers and doctors say.
There are too many differences between high school and pro to list, but one major difference is that there is often not an independent neurologist involved in the decision.
 

cornwalls@6

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Is it even possible for any type of back injury to cause the difficulties Tua had last week? I’ve never seen that except from head trauma, in which case I’ve seen that often.
I’ve dealt with occasional back spasms for the last decade or so, due to a sciatic nerve issue, and couple of them have been severe enough to bring me to a knee, or at least cause me to grab a chair or a door frame to brace myself. So they can, momentarily, make you feel unstable your feet. But nothing like the obviously dazed, wobbling appearance he had last week.
 

Shelterdog

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Do they have spotters? I would assume the independent neurologists / spotter would need to have access to all TV feeds to do that job.
There are spotters, I don't know if the spotters have TV copy, I assume they do. But from the examining doctor's perspective I think there's a difference between hearing someone say "he wobbled when he got up" and actually watching that tape.
 

riboflav

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Coaches can sit players for whatever reason they want. That's not in question. The issue really is that if the HC, who is NOT a medical guy at all, is told by the team's (and league's?) medical experts that a player is fully healthy and fully cleared to play, he's likely to play the guy unless there are OTHER reasons (disciplinary, performance, whatever) to not play him.
I have done this several times and have seen other coaches do this as well. Yes, even when a trainer clears a player during a game. Most of the players tested positive for a concussion after the game. When in doubt sit him out and give all trainers and coaches and med staff etc. the power to do this. This is done at every level but the pro level. Med/trainer staff can clear players but any coach can rule players out. Cuts down on the corruption and each coach and person feels a share of responsibility in making sure players are safe.
 

radsoxfan

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But what you CAN do is prevent a clearly-compromised player from going back into the meat grinder before he’s ready.
We're getting towards Dunning-Kruger land here with a lot of these takes. The guy looked wobbly Sunday, i hear you it's all a little odd. There are paid professionals with a lot of training that evaluated it. If they botched it, they should be held accountable.

If Tua was complaining behind the scenes to McDaniels or something, then he should have alerted the docs. But to have a player say he's totally fine, to have the medical staff say he's totally fine, and have the coach hold out the starting QB anyway....I cannot emphasize enough how much of an unreasonable expectation that is (and honestly, a weird precedent).
 

Shelterdog

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There are too many differences between high school and pro to list, but one major difference is that there is often not an independent neurologist involved in the decision.
We talked about it in the game thread but one fascinating piece of this is that (at least according to the 2020 concussion protocol, can't find a newer version online and not sure if there is one) is that the actual concussion protocols don't really match how they're depicted to the public. Most importantly while there is an independent neurologist that neurologist doesn't seem to have a veto and it's the team's doctors ultimate determination about whether the player can return to play (and the team doctor's determination as to whether to diagnose a concussion or not). Indeed if the unaffiliated neurologist disagrees with the club physician the neurologist "will be given an opportunity to explain the basis of his/her opinion", "This will be discussed in a collegial fashion in private as to why the player should or should not be returned to the game" and then the Club physician communicates the final decision to the player. So as I read the rules its possible that the neurologist says there's a concussion, tells it to the team doctor (in private), isn't necessarily allowed to share that view with the player, and the Team Doctor presents the no concussion view to the player without necessarily sharing the view of the neurologist.

Obviously a smart team doctor would listen to what the independent neurologist says, but it doesn't appear that the neurologist has any involvement in the ultimate decision other than to provide information to the team doctor.
https://static.www.nfl.com/image/upload/v1597677293/league/dhfywrwelyfsivvia3ie.pdf

EDIT: Do we actually know that the independent neurologist said on Sunday that there was no concussion?I assume s/he concurred with the team doctor's analysis, but I'm not actually seeing that stated.
 
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bigq

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If the league cared about safety at all, they wouldn’t have added a 17th game, there wouldn’t be Thursday night football games at all, there wouldn’t be turf fields, etc.
This is kind of where I am at as well. The league wants their star players to play because it drives fan engagement. Many NFL players are subjecting themselves to a lifetime of pain management after their playing days as well as the horrors of CTE. The NFL cares about player safety to the extent that it helps them look like a responsible organization and protects them from liability. Certainly there have been advancements in player safety including helmet design and penalties for head shots but let's not forget that football is an incredibly violent and dangerous game and it is really the mighty $ that drives the NFL.
 

BaseballJones

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I have done this several times and have seen other coaches do this as well. Yes, even when a trainer clears a player during a game. Most of the players tested positive for a concussion after the game. When in doubt sit him out and give all trainers and coaches and med staff etc. the power to do this. This is done at every level but the pro level. Med/trainer staff can clear players but any coach can rule players out. Cuts down on the corruption and each coach and person feels a share of responsibility in making sure players are safe.
No I get it - if you're still in doubt, you have the power to sit a player. But if you have no doubt? If the guy by all appearances looks healthy, and all the medial people say he IS healthy, what "doubt" are you likely to have?

Let's say nothing happened this week, but NEXT week he took the same kind of hit. I mean, we'd be just two weeks removed from a concussion, and wouldn't it be similarly "obvious" that Tua shouldn't have played? If you're the coach with no medical training, whose expertise are you relying on?

And also....though it SHOULDN'T be this way because adults matter as much as kids do.... it really is different when you're talking about a 14 year old kid versus a 25 year old adult who is getting paid lots of money to play. We tend to take extra precautions to take care of kids.
 

radsoxfan

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I have done this several times and have seen other coaches do this as well. Yes, even when a trainer clears a player during a game. Most of the players tested positive for a concussion after the game. When in doubt sit him out and give all trainers and coaches and med staff etc. the power to do this. This is done at every level but the pro level. Med/trainer staff can clear players but any coach can rule players out. Cuts down on the corruption and each coach and person feels a share of responsibility in making sure players are safe.
This is because resources at high school games are completely different. Coaches do have to take some ownership sometimes. It's apples to oranges.

Not to mention these are high school kids rather than professional athletes.
 
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There are things you can prevent and thing you can’t. You can’t prevent a 300 pound DL from tackling and injuring a QB during a play. Shit happens.

But what you CAN do is prevent a clearly-compromised player from going back into the meat grinder before he’s ready.

That’s what people are upset about, not the severity of injuries that we all accept can and will occur.
Captures my view well. I think you can also push things toward more safety, even accepting that there’s going to be some inherent level of risk in the sport. And part of that safety is having players that can sustain the violent hits (either through protective equipment or their own resilience/ability to avoid injury).
 

BigSoxFan

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We're getting towards Dunning-Kruger land here with a lot of these takes. The guy looked wobbly Sunday, i hear you it's all a little odd. There are paid professionals with a lot of training that evaluated it. If they botched it, they should be held accountable.

If Tua was complaining behind the scenes to McDaniels or something, then he should have alerted the docs. But to have a player say he's totally fine, to have the medical staff say he's totally fine, and have the coach hold out the starting QB anyway....I cannot emphasize enough how much of an unreasonable expectation that is (and honestly, a weird precedent).
He wasn’t fine. I don’t care what the doctors said. They were wrong and either grossly misdiagnosed him or didn’t have all of the information. The system failed Tua.
 

Trlicek's Whip

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We’re talking about hypothetical Brady, not actual Brady. Giselle’s English isn’t even that great. She’s probably confused concussion with percussion. Tom was taking up the Xylophone in the offseason.
If you're known for one thing in here it's your consistent, quality posting through sheer unchecked defensiveness about your team allegiance.
 

Bozo Texino

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Not watching any football this year, but I did just see the clip from last night.

That was genuinely frightening. I've seen fencing responses before, but nothing like that. I'm concerned for Tagovailoa's quality of life moving forwared.
 

CouchsideSteve

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I find it very difficult to believe anyone inside the organization thought Tua was just fine. The fact that they activated their 3rd QB for the game was telling.

I understand why others absolve McDaniel, but I don’t believe the question of accountability is framed correctly. To suggest that holding Tua out would be “overriding” the medical professionals is a false premise. It’s McDaniel’s job to set the active roster. By his own admission (see above), he knew Tua wasn’t 100% and played him anyway. The results were tragic. People get fired for making commonplace decisions all of the time if the results are catastrophic failures. Especially when the tail risk scenario was foreseeable, which it obviously was here.

Maybe Tua will be fine. But McDaniel’s value to the organization is disproportionately tied to his ability to develop the QB — he took a risk with the best one on the roster last night, and it’s likely to cost the team. The franchise is in a worse place than 15 hours ago. I think the guy in charge carries fault. Others do not, evidently.
 

8slim

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There are things you can prevent and thing you can’t. You can’t prevent a 300 pound DL from tackling and injuring a QB during a play. Shit happens.

But what you CAN do is prevent a clearly-compromised player from going back into the meat grinder before he’s ready.

That’s what people are upset about, not the severity of injuries that we all accept can and will occur.
But this happens every week, this case was just potentially egregious. Many of us are Pats fans, and supposedly there's a chance that Mac Jones plays on Sunday. Is there any doubt that if he does he's "compromised"? What if he plays next week after getting more "treatment" (a.k.a. a shot to override his body's pain receptors)?

David Andrews has been playing for 2 years with a serious blood clot condition. Does anyone even think about that anymore? A doctor cleared him, so I guess he's fine? Teddy Bruschi played weeks after having a stroke.

I assume that the vast majority of NFL players are "compromised", in some way, every time they take the field.
 

DJnVa

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But this happens every week, this case was just potentially egregious. Many of us are Pats fans, and supposedly there's a chance that Mac Jones plays on Sunday. Is there any doubt that if he does he's "compromised"? What if he plays next week after getting more "treatment" (a.k.a. a shot to override his body's pain receptors)?

David Andrews has been playing for 2 years with a serious blood clot condition. Does anyone even think about that anymore? A doctor cleared him, so I guess he's fine? Teddy Bruschi played weeks after having a stroke.

I assume that the vast majority of NFL players are "compromised", in some way, every time they take the field.
There's a difference between a busted ankle and a brain injury though. That difference matters.

But I guess an injured ankle could lead to a player slowed up just enough to then get crushed and suffer a concussion, but eventually we're 7 degrees of Kevin Bacon-ing this thing.
 
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8slim

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There's a difference between a busted ankle and a brain injury though. That difference matters.

But I guess an injured ankle could lead to a player slowed up just enough to then get crushed and suffer a concussion, but eventually were 7 degrees of Kevin Bacon-ing this thing.
Absolutely. Do we not think that there are a bunch of no-name lineman and special teams players getting on the field this weekend who may be nursing an undiagnosed concussion? This was one of the most recognizable players in a national game, so the attention on it is sky high. I just find some of the outrage a little over-the-top.
 

Fishercat

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I also think (hope?) that if the Patriots decide to run Mac Jones out there this week they'd get some real criticism and then if he hurt himself in the same area or as a consequence of his limited mobility that the medical and coaching staff would get similar blowback (though to DJ's point, the NFL hasn't exactly been sued, settled, and then had substantial attention on poor treatment of ankle injuries (maybe because NFL teams actively staff orthopedic docs and not neurologists). And like...maybe we should be more concerned about lower profile players also having these undiagnosed and undertreated concussions if this is the case - maybe the level of anger is less than it should be for most players rather than more than it should be for a few? Like, no amount of money makes it better those guys especially don't.
 

BigSoxFan

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But this happens every week, this case was just potentially egregious. Many of us are Pats fans, and supposedly there's a chance that Mac Jones plays on Sunday. Is there any doubt that if he does he's "compromised"? What if he plays next week after getting more "treatment" (a.k.a. a shot to override his body's pain receptors)?

David Andrews has been playing for 2 years with a serious blood clot condition. Does anyone even think about that anymore? A doctor cleared him, so I guess he's fine? Teddy Bruschi played weeks after having a stroke.

I assume that the vast majority of NFL players are "compromised", in some way, every time they take the field.
I mean, it's the NFL. Everyone is busted up to some extent. But some cases are clearly more egregious than others. Anyone with a working set of eyes saw on Sunday that Tua was messed up. If the NFL can't get the obvious cases like Tua on Sunday correct, then just ditch the entire protocol process altogether. Tua said "he's fine" so he must have been.

You're right that this is getting more attention on it than it would have had some random OG gone down but that's kind of the nature of the sport. There will always be a hyperfocus on the QBs.
 

BigJimEd

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Obviously a smart team doctor would listen to what the independent neurologist says, but it doesn't appear that the neurologist has any involvement in the ultimate decision other than to provide information to the team doctor.
https://static.www.nfl.com/image/upload/v1597677293/league/dhfywrwelyfsivvia3ie.pdf

EDIT: Do we actually know that the independent neurologist said on Sunday that there was no concussion?I assume s/he concurred with the team doctor's analysis, but I'm not actually seeing that stated.
I don't believe we know what the neurologist recommended. Everyone's assuming they cleared Tua but we really don't know. They could have been 100% against it, 100% ok with Tua returning or somewhere in between. The fact that the "independent" neurologist can't rule a player out by themselves tells you all you need to know about the NFL's priorities.


It does appear based on the protocol linked above that they do have access to the video. I find it very hard to believe a neurologist would rule out a concussion after seeing that.

Nowinski noted 5 separate signs and he was very far from the only one saying this earlier in the week.
Nowinski, watching last Sunday’s game from his Boynton Beach home, recognized, “five separate signs of a concussion, any of which should’ve mandated removal from the game.” He listed the five:

1. Tagovailoa grabbed his helmet, suggesting his head was an issue.

2. He wobbled as he stood up.

3. He shook his head in a, “clear-the-cobwebs move that in my experience happens only when you have visual disturbance,” Nowinski said.

4. He fell while walking.

5. He would have fallen again if teammates hadn’t helped him.

“The NFL’s supposed keep you out with no chance to return when you display such gross motor disturbance,” Nowinski said. “The story that, ‘I tweaked my back,’ is preposterous. He doesn’t even reach for his back at all. No good doctor should take the player’s word. The mechanism is in place to protect the player.
 

radsoxfan

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The fact that the "independent" neurologist can't rule a player out by themselves tells you all you need to know about the NFL's priorities.
I admittedly don’t know the protocol details….. what does this mean?

They have to get sign off from Dr. Ross and Dr. McDaniels?
 

Shelterdog

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I don't believe we know what the neurologist recommended. Everyone's assuming they cleared Tua but we really don't know. They could have been 100% against it, 100% ok with Tua returning or somewhere in between. The fact that the "independent" neurologist can't rule a player out by themselves tells you all you need to know about the NFL's priorities.
If I'm an independent neurologist I'm sure I'll tell the team doctor my opinion but I'm not about to give up a paying gig with sideline tickets by going public with my doubts, resigning over a marginal case where the team doctor disagrees with me, etc.


Responding to radsox, it seems that under the protocols while the neurologist can institute an exam on a player for a possible concussion and participates in the exam, the ultimate decision on whether there was a concussion or whether someone needs to enter the full concussion protocol is one hundred percent up to the team doctor. It would be one hundred percent consistent with the NFL's concussion protocols for the independent neuro to have diagnosed Tua on Sunday and concluded that he definitely one hundred percent had a concussion, been overruled by the team doctor, and never conveyed his diagnosis of concussion to the player.
 
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BigSoxFan

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I admittedly don’t know the protocol details….. what does this mean?

They have to get sign off from Dr. Ross and Dr. McDaniels?
The link below (and bolded) seems to suggest that the Team Physician makes the ultimate call here.

https://www.nfl.com/playerhealthandsafety/health-and-wellness/player-care/concussion-protocol-return-to-participation-protocol

Improvements to the Concussion Protocol

For the 2018 season, the Head, Neck and Spine Committee made additional improvements to the Concussion Protocol:
  • Added a third UNC who will monitor the broadcast video and audio feeds of each game from the spotters' booth, and notify on-field UNCs of possible head, neck or spine injuries.
  • Defined impact seizure and fencing responses as independent signs of potential loss of consciousness, representing "No-Go" criteria under the current Protocol. Players who display either of these signs at any time shall be removed from play and may not return to the game.
  • Required an evaluation for all players demonstrating gross motor instability (e.g., stumbling or falling to the ground when trying to stand) to determine the cause of the instability. If the team physician, in consultation with the sideline UNC, determines the instability to be neurologically caused, the player is designated a "No-Go" and may not return to play.
  • Officials, teammates, and coaching staffs have been instructed to take an injured player directly to a member of the medical team for appropriate evaluation, including a concussion assessment, if warranted.
  • Required all players who undergo any concussion evaluation on game day to have a follow-up evaluation conducted the following day by a member of the medical staff.
 

radsoxfan

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The team doctor is the one who decides if a player is cleared.
Seems pretty clear to me any investigation will (and should) be centered on the neurologist and team physician then.

If the neurologist did not clear him but the orthopedist did…. There’s some more Dunning Kruger for ya.
 

Jimbodandy

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Grady Little would have left him in...
Well done.

The "coach can't override medical opinion" talk has to stop. Coach can't put a guy in who wasn't cleared. Coach absolutely can keep a guy on the bench who was cleared. Especially since it is now common fucking knowledge that second concussions are catastrophic. My nephew got a concussion in high school and was allowed to play the following week (also a QB). They did a bullshit concussion review (just like Tua's clearly). The next game (7 days later), he ran into the back of his own OT on a running play and knocked himself out. No violent collision, no head hitting the turf. Just his facemask contacting the upper back of his own tackle as he cut the corner too hard. Kid needed to be led off the field by the hand, and mom kiboshed football forever. This was five years ago I think, maybe four.

The "well he was having conversations and participated in game planning all week" nonsense needs to stop as well. Also the "I talked to him last night, and he was asking about the guys" talk. Just because you can literally talk doesn't mean that you don't have brain damage. I was knocked out for three hours after a car accident and apparently had long conversations with hospital staff, my mom, and my girlfriend for days. Was hospitalized for 48 hours and remembered about 30 minutes of that time total. Why are we perpetuating these archaic tropes? This level of TBI is like being blackout drunk. Just because you can operate a car doesn't mean that you should.
 

radsoxfan

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I would find fault with McDaniels if there evidence he:

1. Tried to persuade the medical staff to clear Tua

OR

2. Asked Tua to misrepresent his symptoms (“hey bud, we really need you, if you say this is a back thing, they won’t be able to declare you out”.)

Otherwise, lots of misplaced blame here.
 

radsoxfan

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Well done.

The "coach can't override medical opinion" talk has to stop. Coach can't put a guy in who wasn't cleared. Coach absolutely can keep a guy on the bench who was cleared. Especially since it is now common fucking knowledge that second concussions are catastrophic. My nephew got a concussion in high school and was allowed to play the following week (also a QB). They did a bullshit concussion review (just like Tua's clearly). The next game (7 days later), he ran into the back of his own OT on a running play and knocked himself out. No violent collision, no head hitting the turf. Just his facemask contacting the upper back of his own tackle as he cut the corner too hard. Kid needed to be led off the field by the hand, and mom kiboshed football forever. This was five years ago I think, maybe four.
It’s a sad situation, and I’m sure lots of people have similar anecdotal examples.

I don’t think any NFL coach would override his medical staff (particularly given the resources available in the NFL) and player to hold him out.

Asking him to make that medical decision is honestly totally unfair to the coach and just looking for someone high profile to blame.
 

Shelterdog

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I would find fault with McDaniels if there evidence he:

1. Tried to persuade the medical staff to clear Tua

OR

2. Asked Tua to misrepresent his symptoms (“hey bud, we really need you, if you say this is a back thing, they won’t be able to declare you out”.)

Otherwise, lots of misplaced blame here.
A third case where I'd place blame is if he was willfully blind--like he knows the back thing was bullshit but rolled with it because hey, the doctors get to make that call.
 

radsoxfan

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A third case where I'd place blame is if he was willfully blind--like he knows the back thing was bullshit but rolled with it because hey, the doctors get to make that call.
I’ll give you that one too, if there is something nepharious going on behind the scenes and he knows about it (even if he’s not involved at all)…. That’s definitely his job as coach to say something.
 

8slim

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Coach absolutely can keep a guy on the bench who was cleared.

The "well he was having conversations and participated in game planning all week" nonsense needs to stop as well. Also the "I talked to him last night, and he was asking about the guys" talk. Just because you can literally talk doesn't mean that you don't have brain damage.
1- A coach can keep a guy on the bench for anything. Like, say, benching your top receiver from last season for unspecified reasons. But, again, no coach is going to bench their starting QB because he thinks his team's medical staff made a bad diagnosis. If a coach really thought that he'd tell the team he wants a new team doctor. A coach has to trust that the medical personnel he works with are competent.

2- So do you think Tua didn't remember the past 4 days? I get what you're saying, but there has to be a logical line right? He literally was diagnosed with a concussion last night so I don't get the objection to the "talking with the guys" comment. That didn't impact the diagnosis at all, apparently. No one is disputing that he got a concussion last night. As to the former, if he wasn't showing any signs of concussion from Sunday afternoon to Thursday at 8pm I don't know what to tell you.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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This is some serious avoidance by ESPN, and if you think it's a coincidence, you're an idiot.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/34692842/miami-dolphins-quarterback-tua-tagovailoa-taken-hospital-head-neck-injuries

It is addressed as a head/neck injury in the title as well as throughout the article. The word "concussion/concussed" only appears 7 times. Three of them were direct quotes from McDaniels. The other four were addressing his entrance into the "concussion protocol". ESPN never called it a concussion.

The video on the article shows Tua roll from his side to his back, but conveniently cuts off before showing his arms seize up.

This article was very carefully curated...