2022-23 NBA Game Thread

[InstaFace]

Man it's just such a shame that the Lakers are currently swapping the unprotected #6 pick for the #28 pick with New Orleans. Just a tragedy, couldn't have happened to a nicer franchise.

(Tough trade to assess, even today)

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

76ers @ Pels is spicy with CJ and Embid leading the way. CJ is 9-13 from deep with a quarter and a half to go.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

LeBron up to his ole “stat padding” again with a ho-hum 47/10/9 in the Lakers win down in Atlanta. Freak.

 

[Sam Ray Not]

Warriors now 3-16 on the road ... and 16-2 at home.

4-0 on the current homestand without Steph and Wiggs.

 

[benhogan]

Warriors now 3-16 on the road ... and 16-2 at home.

4-0 on the current homestand without Steph and Wiggs.

Really good 4th quarter-win last night. Kerr has done a great job scotch taping this together.

Ironically the Wiggins/Curry injuries forced them develop their bench, which was a major early-season weakness. I could see Bob keeping the 5 + Poole, Donte, and Kuminga. Make the rest of the roster available to add 1-2 rotational pieces

Their starting 5 (also when Poole plays with them) is absurdly good. Suspect they can replace what they lost in Otto/GP2 via trades in Feb.

Usable vets like Poeltl, JRich, Plumlee, Beasley, Olynyk, Oubre, Caruso, and Burks would be better than the crap the Warriors are running off the end of their bench

 

[Sam Ray Not]

I could see Bob keeping the 5 + Poole, Donte, and Kuminga. Make the rest of the roster available to add 1-2 rotational pieces

That’s what I’d do. But I get the sense Joey Lightyears and a contingent in the FO still have a lot of professional pride bound up in the development of Wiseman. Big Jim has looked significantly less terrible after returning from Santa Cruz (and he mostly crushed it in SC) … but that to me just means he might now have a bit of trade value to a rebuilding team with patience.

Still think something like Wiseman and Ryan Rollins to Spurs for Zach Collins — with the Ws using the added roster spot to guarantee both Ty Jerome and Anthony Lamb — could be win-win all around, including for young James, who really needs extended run and a longer leash to develop. But I think I’m in a minority on that in DubNation: a lot of fans seem to have the same emotional attachment to Wiseman that Lacob does. I get it, as he brings a combo of size and athleticism the team lacks, plus seems like a really good dude to boot.

Speaking of Lamb and Jerome: those two have been low-key lifesavers for this team. Both have been fantastic; and together with Donte (who basically looks born to play Kerrball, kind of a mini Draymond with a better jumper) have held together a ship that was leaking badly and, without their two best players, in serious danger of sinking into the WC near-cellar with the Lakeshow.

Jerome in particular has been a revelation the last few weeks — kinda like a light-skinned Brogdon, with his UVA pedigree, high hoops IQ, and ability to get to his spots, not get sped up, hit big shots, and generally calm down the game on O.

There’s a world where the 5 starters plus Poole-DiVincenzo-Kuminga, plus a sprinkling of Jerome and Lamb (and maybe Iguodala if he still exists) is enough come playoff time. But I’m with you in thinking one more veteran big or big wing who’s better than Wiseman and JaMychal Green is closer to a necessity than a luxury.

 

[benhogan]

That’s what I’d do. But I get the sense Joey Lightyears and a contingent in the FO still have a lot of professional pride bound up in the development of Wiseman. Big Jim has looked significantly less terrible after returning from Santa Cruz (and he mostly crushed it in SC) … but that to me just means he might now have a bit of trade value to a rebuilding team with patience.

Still think something like Wiseman and Ryan Rollins to Spurs for Zach Collins — with the Ws using the added roster spot to guarantee both Ty Jerome and Anthony Lamb — could be win-win all around, including for young James, who really needs extended run and a longer leash to develop. But I think I’m in a minority on that in DubNation: a lot of fans seem to have the same emotional attachment to Wiseman that Lacob does. I get it, as he brings a combo of size and athleticism the team lacks, plus seems like a really good dude to boot.

Speaking of Lamb and Jerome: those two have been low-key lifesavers for this team. Both have been fantastic; and together with Donte (who basically looks born to play Kerrball, kind of a mini Draymond with a better jumper) have held together a ship that was leaking badly and, without their two best players, in serious danger of sinking into the WC near-cellar with the Lakeshow.

Jerome in particular has been a revelation the last few weeks — kinda like a light-skinned Brogdon, with his UVA pedigree, high hoops IQ, and ability to get to his spots, not get sped up, hit big shots, and generally calm down the game on O.

There’s a world where the 5 starters plus Poole-DiVincenzo-Kuminga, plus a sprinkling of Jerome and Lamb (and maybe Iguodala if he still exists) is enough come playoff time. But I’m with you in thinking one more veteran big or big wing who’s better than Wiseman and JaMychal Green is closer to a necessity than a luxury.

Poeltl was born to share the 5 with Loon on the Warriors. Screen setting/rebounding/paint defender savant.

Jerome is more like Pritchard (with minutes) than Brogdon IMO. Fine as your 10th man. Malcolm's physicality lets him get to the rim on PGs/most wings.

Not sure they even need POINTZ from the bench if DD is going to shoot ~40% from 3. BUT Alec Burks, who I've been high on since the Summer, is scorching hot. He's been pretty darn good since the Warriors sprinkled pixie dust on him 3-4yrs ago. He could be your Otto filler. Troy Weaver is always up for a dumb move.

All they've been through has only made their roster stronger. I'm sure Bob will strike, the West is there for the taking with the SUNS setting. Denver, Memphis, Mavs, & NOLA are not really multi-year, deep playoff-tested. Out of that bunch, Memphis' mentality/bully style is the one team in the West I'd be concerned with. The Grizz would relish sending Curry/Poole into the 3rd row and making it a scrum with Dray.

 

[the moops]

Still think something like Wiseman and Ryan Rollins to Spurs for Zach Collins

Holy moly, is Wiseman stock that low? Zach Collins has played 60 games in the past 3 years and when plays is a fine player, but most certainly not a difference maker

 

[Sam Ray Not]

Holy moly, is Wiseman stock that low? Zach Collins has played 60 games in the past 3 years and when plays is a fine player, but most certainly not a difference maker

Yeah, Poeltl might be better — as Ben Hogan notes, high IQ, great screen setter, thicker, stronger, and more durable than Collins. Where I prefer Collins is that he’s a bit more switchable and athletic, and stretches the floor on O, so you can more easily play him alongside Dray and Loon. Maybe more importantly: where Poeltl would be a half-year rental who would almost certainly move on next summer, Collins has a $7M partial guarantee next season that could potentially be converted into a multi-year deal for his prime age 25-28 seasons.

Who knows what the Spurs or Warriors are thinking, tho. Part of me thinks Kerr isn’t gonna play any true center not named Dray/Kevon more than 5-10 mpg in games that matter, so we’re better off targeting a big wing who he would play. I don’t know what’s going on with Otto Porter’s latest foot injury, but if it’s not too serious, I might kick the tires there, given the Raptors already have like 18 forwards and seem vaguely on the verge of imploding.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Holy moly, is Wiseman stock that low? Zach Collins has played 60 games in the past 3 years and when plays is a fine player, but most certainly not a difference maker

The problem with Collins is that you can’t start him due to his inability to defend without fouling which creates rotation issues as he can’t be relied upon to be available while allowing the opponent to get into an early bonus at start of 1Q & 3Q. The Spurs recently started him 6 consecutive games and in an avg of 25 mpg he fouled out 3x and finished with 5 fouls in the other 3.

 

[benhogan]

Yeah, Poeltl might be better — as Ben Hogan notes, high IQ, great screen setter, thicker, stronger, and more durable than Collins. Where I prefer Collins is that he’s a bit more switchable and athletic, and stretches the floor on O, so you can more easily play him alongside Dray and Loon. Maybe more importantly: where Poeltl would be a half-year rental who would almost certainly move on next summer, Collins has a $7M partial guarantee next season that could potentially be converted into a multi-year deal for his prime age 25-28 seasons.

Who knows what the Spurs or Warriors are thinking, tho. Part of me thinks Kerr isn’t gonna play any true center not named Dray/Kevon more than 5-10 mpg in games that matter, so we’re better off targeting a big wing who he would play. I don’t know what’s going on with Otto Porter’s latest foot injury, but if it’s not too serious, I might kick the tires there, given the Raptors already have like 18 forwards and seem vaguely on the verge of imploding.

Bob may have Life after Dray in the back of his mind with Wiseman? Agree with you that it's not the best environment for him or Kerr to develop. There is a clever archetype that the Warriors have developed from the 5 and Jimmy isn't that. Curry washed Superstar has ~4 high-end years left on the odometer. Old Klay keeps bubbling to the surface. Everything should be built around SC/AW/KT/JP 4yr window, the kids be damned. Just add high-end D/role players.

They are the only thing out West, that should mildly concern Boston.

 

[chilidawg]

Yeah, Poeltl might be better — as Ben Hogan notes, high IQ, great screen setter, thicker, stronger, and more durable than Collins. Where I prefer Collins is that he’s a bit more switchable and athletic, and stretches the floor on O, so you can more easily play him alongside Dray and Loon. Maybe more importantly: where Poeltl would be a half-year rental who would almost certainly move on next summer, Collins has a $7M partial guarantee next season that could potentially be converted into a multi-year deal for his prime age 25-28 seasons.

Who knows what the Spurs or Warriors are thinking, tho. Part of me thinks Kerr isn’t gonna play any true center not named Dray/Kevon more than 5-10 mpg in games that matter, so we’re better off targeting a big wing who he would play. I don’t know what’s going on with Otto Porter’s latest foot injury, but if it’s not too serious, I might kick the tires there, given the Raptors already have like 18 forwards and seem vaguely on the verge of imploding.

A healthy Otto Porter would be a good fit for the C's as well me thinks.

 

[TheRooster]

The problem with Collins is that you can’t start him due to his inability to defend without fouling which creates rotation issues as he can’t be relied upon to be available while allowing the opponent to get into an early bonus at start of 1Q & 3Q. The Spurs recently started him 6 consecutive games and in an avg of 25 mpg he fouled out 3x and finished with 5 fouls in the other 3.

To moops point, the problem with Collins is that he can't stay healthy. Everything else is irrelevant

 

[ElUno20]

Awful Clipps loss to a pacers team that cant guard their own shadow. Shitty 4th qtr officiating treating Haliburton like michael jordan didnt help.

12pm east coast starts for traveling west coast teams should be banned.

 

[InstaFace]

Didn't we lose to the Pacers and Haliburton too, hardly a week ago? Maybe they're better than we think.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Didn't we lose to the Pacers and Haliburton too, hardly a week ago? Maybe they're better than we think.

The Pacers are so legit. I don’t know what anyone has seen from their body of work this year that would lead someone to think otherwise. They are 20-17 and already been through their long west coast trip.

 

[Euclis20]

Luka with another monster night that somehow seems quiet - 51 points on 29 shots, 9 assists, 6 rebounds (and 0 turnovers) but the Mavs barely sneak by the lousy spurs. I think the award is Luka's to lose if they finish in the top half of the WC playoffs, even if Tatum's defense is criminally underrated (especially in comparison to Luka).

 

[chilidawg]

Luka with another monster night that somehow seems quiet - 51 points on 29 shots, 9 assists, 6 rebounds (and 0 turnovers) but the Mavs barely sneak by the lousy spurs. I think the award is Luka's to lose if they finish in the top half of the WC playoffs, even if Tatum's defense is criminally underrated (especially in comparison to Luka).

Jokic says hold my beer.

 

[Euclis20]

Jokic says hold my beer.

To win a 3rd straight, Denver has to be the best team in the west (at least) and Jokic has to be better than 17th in scoring. The advanced stats have him as good as ever, but the competition has gotten better. Luka is just putting up bonkers numbers:

View: https://twitter.com/NBA/status/1609399525898354691?s=20&t=8qToO2n4CLWDFbifsvYjGQ

 

[Sox Puppet]

If you're Phoenix, Atlanta, or especially Sacramento, you have to be kicking yourself hard every time you look at one of those Doncic highlight reels.

 

[luckiestman]

If you're Phoenix, Atlanta, or especially Sacramento, you have to be kicking yourself hard every time you look at one of those Doncic highlight reels.

It’s not like Bill Simmons didn’t tell them

 

[Euclis20]

If you're Phoenix, Atlanta, or especially Sacramento, you have to be kicking yourself hard every time you look at one of those Doncic highlight reels.

If nothing else, this season should completely put to bed the notion that Doncic for Young+ is anything remotely an even trade. It's never going to be in the Tatum/Fultz category, but still pretty ugly.

 

[InstaFace]

It’s not like Bill Simmons didn’t tell them

Wait we're crediting Simmons' "throw everything at the wall and see what sticks" prognosticating strategy now? If someone were to do a full accounting of all his predictions, every single player in the league would be predicted to be a superstar at some point or another. The pre-draft hype about Markelle Fultz was just as effusive as that of Doncic, the 180s Simmons did were just as breathtaking.

 

[Jimbodandy]

Doncic this year is reminding me of those peak Harden years where he put up bonkers numbers and his teams went nowhere. It's like watching peak Mike Trout, except in hoop you're supposed to drag a team to the finals when you're that good.

 

[Euclis20]

Doncic this year is reminding me of those peak Harden years where he put up bonkers numbers and his teams went nowhere. It's like watching peak Mike Trout, except in hoop you're supposed to drag a team to the finals when you're that good.

Yup, the comparisons with Harden are pretty good (right down to the lousy defense). Harden was a slightly more efficient scorer (because he was better at getting to the line and far better once he got there), but Luka is a better rebounder and a much better playoff performer. The only guy in recent history who was able to drag mediocre teams all the way to the finals repeatedly is prime Lebron, who was almost as much an offensive weapon as Harden/Luka while also being an all-NBA level defender. I don't know if it's their style of play or their teams' inability to put quality talent around them (it's not a coincidence that the closest the Durant warriors got to losing was when 32 year old Chris Paul played with Harden), but the Mavs still need a legit all-star next to Luka to be a serious contender. Christian Wood ain't that guy.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

If nothing else, this season should completely put to bed the notion that Doncic for Young+ is anything remotely an even trade. It's never going to be in the Tatum/Fultz category, but still pretty ugly.

I’m not sure it isn’t far from Tatum/Fultz as Young has a lot of Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf vibes about him from where I sit.

 

[the moops]

Luka with another monster night that somehow seems quiet - 51 points on 29 shots, 9 assists, 6 rebounds (and 0 turnovers) but the Mavs barely sneak by the lousy spurs. I think the award is Luka's to lose if they finish in the top half of the WC playoffs, even if Tatum's defense is criminally underrated (especially in comparison to Luka).

I agree. The #'s Luka is putting up is bonkers, and his team is really bad. If he didn't play, that team would be battling Detroit for the # 1 lottery slot.

 

[benhogan]

I don't know if it's their style of play or their teams' inability to put quality talent around them (it's not a coincidence that the closest the Durant warriors got to losing was when 32 year old Chris Paul played with Harden), but the Mavs still need a legit all-star next to Luka to be a serious contender. Christian Wood ain't that guy.

was Christian Wood supposed to be that guy? They gave up #26 in the '22 draft for him + a bunch of filler. His contract is friendly. He's one of the few off-season wins they've had recently. Dallas has a lot of overpaid & general crap on that roster (Hardaway, Bertans, Dinwiddie, Bullock). They had Ntilinka playing high-leverage minutes last night

not sure why Wood gets singled out?

I’m not sure it isn’t far from Tatum/Fultz as Young has a lot of Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf vibes about him from where I sit.

Agree that Trae is overrated. For the 100th time POINTZ pay, and Trae is the poster boy. That ECF euphoria is wearing thin. His size, defense, attitude, and 3pt% would scare the crap out of me if he was the face of my franchise. I get an early John Wall-euphoria vibe to Trae.

BUT Fultz is pretty awful, I can't imagine him ever playing rotational minutes on a playoff team.

 

[NoXInNixon]

Man it's just such a shame that the Lakers are currently swapping the unprotected #6 pick for the #28 pick with New Orleans. Just a tragedy, couldn't have happened to a nicer franchise.

(Tough trade to assess, even today)

In a world where Covid never happened, the Lakers probably don't win that title, and the AD deal is viewed as one of the worst ever.

 

[InstaFace]

I think their championship equity over the last 3 seasons probably exceeds 1 title. They got paid their expected value, I would say.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

was Christian Wood supposed to be that guy? They gave up #26 in the '22 draft for him + a bunch of filler. His contract is friendly. He's one of the few off-season wins they've had recently. Dallas has a lot of overpaid & general crap on that roster (Hardaway, Bertans, Dinwiddie, Bullock). They had Ntilinka playing high-leverage minutes last night

not sure why Wood gets singled out?


Agree that Trae is overrated. For the 100th time POINTZ pay, and Trae is the poster boy. That ECF euphoria is wearing thin. His size, defense, attitude, and 3pt% would scare the crap out of me if he was the face of my franchise. I get an early John Wall-euphoria vibe to Trae.

BUT Fultz is pretty awful, I can't imagine him ever playing rotational minutes on a playoff team.

Fultz may be starting for a playoff team in 4 months.

 

[Jimbodandy]

In a world where Covid never happened, the Lakers probably don't win that title, and the AD deal is viewed as one of the worst ever.

Yeah and all those people don't die too.

 

[benhogan]

Fultz may be starting for a playoff team in 4 months.

uh oh, the HRB ledger must be massively long Magic season wins

is Jonathan Isaac ever going to reappear?
Jalen Suggs, what's his story? or Cole Anthony?

Orlando has a collection of interesting players (and high draft picks). At some point, they may put it together.

 

[Euclis20]

I’m not sure it isn’t far from Tatum/Fultz as Young has a lot of Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf vibes about him from where I sit.

What Young does moving forward is almost irrelevant to the comparison. Maybe some of his performance is fools gold because his defense is so bad, but he still led the Hawks to at least one deep playoff run, and led the league in both points and assists last year (hasn't been done in about 50 years). Even if it's short-lived, you can't take away his all star or all-nba appearances.

Likewise, it's also irrelevant what Fultz does moving forward (because whatever value he provides won't be to the team that traded Jayson Tatum for him). He's one of the biggest busts in NBA history, he played fewer games for the team that drafted him than Anthony Bennett, plus they traded away an additional 1st round pick to get him (Atlanta did the opposite when they traded away Doncic, they received an extra 1st). These trades aren't close, not at all.

was Christian Wood supposed to be that guy? They gave up #26 in the '22 draft for him + a bunch of filler. His contract is friendly. He's one of the few off-season wins they've had recently. Dallas has a lot of overpaid & general crap on that roster (Hardaway, Bertans, Dinwiddie, Bullock). They had Ntilinka playing high-leverage minutes last night

not sure why Wood gets singled out?


Agree that Trae is overrated. For the 100th time POINTZ pay, and Trae is the poster boy. That ECF euphoria is wearing thin. His size, defense, attitude, and 3pt% would scare the crap out of me if he was the face of my franchise. I get an early John Wall-euphoria vibe to Trae.

BUT Fultz is pretty awful, I can't imagine him ever playing rotational minutes on a playoff team.

I didn't really mean to pick on Wood, just that he's their 2nd best player, and that's a shame for them.

 

[the moops]

BUT Fultz is pretty awful, I can't imagine him ever playing rotational minutes on a playoff team.

I don't know about this. Fultz would be seeing rotation minutes on at least a few playoff teams. DAL sure could use another ball handler. MIL could use another guard. I am sure there are several other teams too

 

[Jimbodandy]

I don't know about this. Fultz would be seeing rotation minutes on at least a few playoff teams. DAL sure could use another ball handler. MIL could use another guard. I am sure there are several other teams too

That says more about how shallow some of these teams are than how valuable Fultz is. Guys with 50% true shooting in 2022 shouldn't be getting playoff minutes.

 

[benhogan]

I don't know about this. Fultz would be seeing rotation minutes on at least a few playoff teams. DAL sure could use another ball handler. MIL could use another guard. I am sure there are several other teams too

The pressure/bright lights of the playoffs wouldn't be a great spot for him.

Orlando is a good place for him to avoid attention, where he still struggles to show up to play. Some weird Markelle injury will crop up soon. Maybe he'll play more next season when his 3yr extension ends.

He's turned in one OKish 72 games played season and a good year at Washington into $86M. That has been his most impressive skill.

I can't imagine him cracking MIL top10, since I'd rather have the ball in Pat Connaughton, Wes Matthews, George Hill, or Joe Ingle's hands

 

[kfoss99]

Deleted: dead link.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

What Young does moving forward is almost irrelevant to the comparison. Maybe some of his performance is fools gold because his defense is so bad, but he still led the Hawks to at least one deep playoff run, and led the league in both points and assists last year (hasn't been done in about 50 years). Even if it's short-lived, you can't take away his all star or all-nba appearances.

Likewise, it's also irrelevant what Fultz does moving forward (because whatever value he provides won't be to the team that traded Jayson Tatum for him). He's one of the biggest busts in NBA history, he played fewer games for the team that drafted him than Anthony Bennett, plus they traded away an additional 1st round pick to get him (Atlanta did the opposite when they traded away Doncic, they received an extra 1st). These trades aren't close, not at all.

I don’t understand your position here at all. Are you saying that their future performance doesn’t matter in how we judge them? What if Trae is out of the league in 4 years while Fultz is a starter on playoff teams? That shouldn’t count? I’m confused.

 

[Euclis20]

I don’t understand your position here at all. Are you saying that their future performance doesn’t matter in how we judge them? What if Trae is out of the league in 4 years while Fultz is a starter on playoff teams? That shouldn’t count? I’m confused.

Of course future performance matters generally, but:

1. Whatever Fultz does going forward, it won't benefit the Sixers, so any impression of the original trade (Fultz for Tatum and a 1st) is 100% set in stone at this point. Fultz' future performance can potentially lift him up the list of #1 overall busts, but that trade is done.

2. Whatever happens with Young going forward, he's already provided infinitely more value to Atlanta than Fultz did to Philly. Young could suffer a career ending injury next week and Atlanta could still say they made out far better than Philly.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Of course future performance matters generally, but:

1. Whatever Fultz does going forward, it won't benefit the Sixers, so any impression of the original trade (Fultz for Tatum and a 1st) is 100% set in stone at this point. Fultz' future performance can potentially lift him up the list of #1 overall busts, but that trade is done.

2. Whatever happens with Young going forward, he's already provided infinitely more value to Atlanta than Fultz did to Philly. Young could suffer a career ending injury next week and Atlanta could still say they made out far better than Philly.

Ok now I understand what you were saying. This makes sense from the Sixers perspective. I honestly feel Young is going to have a relatively short career especially if he sustains some injuries.

 

[Sam Ray Not]

Ok now I understand what you were saying. This makes sense from the Sixers perspective. I honestly feel Young is going to have a relatively short career especially if he sustains some injuries.

Predicting durability/longevity is always a bit of a fool’s errand, but I’d put my money on Trae with his ground-bound game and borderline elite shooting having a more extended prime (à la Nash or Steph) than Ja Morant.

 

[snowmanny]

But on the other hand, Doncic has ended up so far ahead of Young that what Young does is not all that important. The trade is a blowout. It's like analyzing Joe Barry Carroll vs Gail Goodrich to compare the Parish/McHale and Magic Johnson acquisitions.

But as for comparing the Tatum trade vs the Doncic trade, the Celtics had the number one pick and could have just picked Tatum. The Mavs were at five and needed to trade to get Doncic, so I think that wins.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Predicting durability/longevity is always a bit of a fool’s errand, but I’d put my money on Trae with his ground-bound game and borderline elite shooting having a more extended prime (à la Nash or Steph) than Ja Morant.

Not really. We have a long history of diminutive guards being ineffective/out of the league by age 30. Young has been an elite “scorer” due to his quickness……he’s never been an elite shooter. These are the type of 6-foot guards who have had shorter careers once they lose a step.

 

[chilidawg]

Steven Adams with the Down Under triple double, 13 Offensive rebounds, 10 defensive rebounds, 11 points.

 

[benhogan]

Not really. We have a long history of diminutive guards being ineffective/out of the league by age 30. Young has been an elite “scorer” due to his quickness……he’s never been an elite shooter. These are the type of 6-foot guards who have had shorter careers once they lose a step.

Agreed on the shrimpy PG pumpkin issue
Poor IT, I'm not sure any player has gone from 3rd in the MVP to unplayable so quickly.
Kemba went from All-NBA/All-Star starter to Danny begging anyone to take him off our hands within months.
As soon as a hip/knee/leg injury robs an ounce of quickness from a diminutive PG it's over.

Travis Schlenk, ex-Golden State Warrior exec, sold Hawk Nation that Trae Young was the 2nd coming of Curry. While Trae's first 4 seasons lapped Steph's in POINTZ/Assists, Young has never developed the 3pt stroke that Steph uses to bend defenses.

As soon as the 76ers closed the books on Markelle Fultz, that was the biggest draft trade bust ever. If Trae spoils in the next 1-2 years, you could make an argument that the Luka/Trae deal passes it since Young would gum up the Hawk's cap space for numerous seasons.

 

[Sam Ray Not]

Not really. We have a long history of diminutive guards being ineffective/out of the league by age 30. Young has been an elite “scorer” due to his quickness……he’s never been an elite shooter. These are the type of 6-foot guards who have had shorter careers once they lose a step.

It’s a nuance, but I’d call Trae more “small” than “diminutive.” He’s closer in size to Steph and Nash than to IT. He’s taller than CP3, who has aged just fine.

He also just turned 24 three months ago, and has been quite durable throughout his career, so I’m not sure why we’re breaking out the actuarial tables on him just yet. I know life comes at you fast in the NBA, but discussion of the death of Trae seems a bit premature.

In any case, my point was a relative one: that ground-bound small guys who rely primarily on skill (e.g. Steph, CP3, Nash, Stockton) tend to age better than high-flying small guys who rely more on explosive athleticism (e.g. Rose, Marbury, Francis, Westbrook). So as long as we’re worrying about the decline of guys in their early 20s, I’d be less concerned about Trae than about Ja.

 

[Sam Ray Not]

Agreed on the shrimpy PG pumpkin issue
Poor IT, I'm not sure any player has gone from 3rd in the MVP to unplayable so quickly.
Kemba went from All-NBA/All-Star starter to Danny begging anyone to take him off our hands within months.
As soon as a hip/knee/leg injury robs an ounce of quickness from a diminutive PG it's over.

Travis Schlenk, ex-Golden State Warrior exec, sold Hawk Nation that Trae Young was the 2nd coming of Curry. While Trae's first 4 seasons lapped Steph's in POINTZ/Assists, Young has never developed the 3pt stroke that Steph uses to bend defenses.

As soon as the 76ers closed the books on Markelle Fultz, that was the biggest draft trade bust ever. If Trae spoils in the next 1-2 years, you could make an argument that the Luka/Trae deal passes it since Young would gum up the Hawk's cap space for numerous seasons.

In the “misery loves company” department: at least with their #3 pick ATL got a legit star who at age 22 was the best player on an conference finalist, plus another lotto swing who hasn’t panned out in Reddish. All SAC got, picking one slot higher, is Marvin freaking Bagley. And PHO shouldn’t feel that great about the Ayton pick, either.

That makes three GMs who in their old age can lie on the bed together, like the Wolverine meme, mournfully watching videos of Luka.

 

[Kliq]

It’s a nuance, but I’d call Trae more “small” than “diminutive.” He’s closer in size to Steph and Nash than to IT. He’s taller than CP3, who has aged just fine.

He also just turned 24 three months ago, and has been quite durable throughout his career, so I’m not sure why we’re breaking out the actuarial tables on him just yet. I know life comes at you fast in the NBA, but discussion of the death of Trae seems a bit premature.

In any case, my point was a relative one: that ground-bound small guys who rely primarily on skill (e.g. Steph, CP3, Nash, Stockton) tend to age better than high-flying small guys who rely more on explosive athleticism (e.g. Rose, Marbury, Francis, Westbrook). So as long as we’re worrying about the decline of guys in their early 20s, I’d be less concerned about Trae than about Ja.

Yeah, Trae's already a turnstile on defense so the level for him to drop off isn't that steep. He's really not a player that relies on speed or explosiveness on offense at all, him losing a step shouldn't be that big of a detirent.

 

[benhogan]

It’s a nuance, but I’d call Trae more “small” than “diminutive.” He’s closer in size to Steph and Nash than to IT. He’s taller than CP3, who has aged just fine.

Yea, you're right on Ja. His high-flying daredevil act into BIGs probably won't age well. Really like your concept of "ground-bound" players being less injury-risky (Blake also cratered quickly). Guessing players like Luka/Joker will age well.

Picking nits, but I would push back on your "size" definition. Height isn't the only measure of "size", you need to throw strength/girth into the equation. It's why players like Dray/Smart can chop down taller BIGs. CP3 has much more girth/strength than Trae, who is a twig & already a hideous defender. He loses a hair of quickness, he becomes even more unplayable against all Wing offenses.

In the “misery loves company” department: at least with their #3 pick ATL got a legit star who at age 22 was the best player on an conference finalist, plus another lotto swing who hasn’t panned out in Reddish. All SAC got, picking one slot higher, is Marvin freaking Bagley. And PHO shouldn’t feel that great about the Ayton pick, either.

That makes three GMs who in their old age can lie on the bed together, like the Wolverine meme, mournfully watching videos of Luka.

Luka is the deathbed nightmare for all GMs involved. Let's throw Memphis/Orlando into the equation for not getting involved when ATL was waving #3 around. It's not like LUKA was some hidden gem like Joker. Everyone knew of him and had tape from the age of 13. The Dragan/Hezonja experience probably scared PHX/ORL off

It's tough to compare the bigger draft trade blunder. BUT we're definitely guilty of piling in on the Sixers (& Lakers), for missing on JT. Just imagine if the Lakers had Bron/Tatum over the last 4 seasons