2022-2023 General Celtics thread
- Thread starter RorschachsMask
- Start date
Except that you are responding to something I never said. (Hint: I never said or meant that start players never slump.) But whatever. Enjoy your high horse.
Pritchard must really be in the doghouse, I thought last night was the perfect game to get him some minutes as a spark/disrupter to change the way things were going. One of the few instances where PP seems to be a better fit than Hauser.
I was going to quote Eddie’s question about why Blake was used but Pritchard fits my point as well.
Growing up I was taught that if something doesn’t make sense all you have to do is follow the money to find the answer. This exercise really allowed me to think outside the box in figuring things out. In basketball, NBA in particular, I learned myself that if a coaches substitution patterns don’t make sense you follow the defensive matchups/rotations and will likely find the answer.
The Pritchard one is easy. Much of our defensive strategy was to not allow Randle the iso mismatches via switches which is his bread and butter. Having one of Smart and Brogdon on the floor at all times negated the Knicks go-to set late in the shot clock. Once Thibs realized that this was not going to work he was forced to use secondary options. There wasn’t really a spot for Pritchard in this game plan.
This broad argument only works to a point. Surely, the gameplan for tonight was not to lose by 15 or to start out hitting 2 of their first 17 from three. At some point, when things are not working, there should be a plan B or C. Saying "Pritchard [or anyone else] is not in the game plan" is one thing, saying "Pritchard won't get a look even if the game plan is a spectacular failure" is something else.
Mazzulla often seems unwilling or unable to adjust on the fly.
The strategy DID work on Randle so there really wasn’t a need for a Plan B. Are you the same person screaming for more Derrick White minutes every night? More Brogdon minutes? Of course there is Smart…..so who loses their minutes last night so the Knicks can create the Randle iso mismatches that we gameplanned against effectively for the purpose of having an inferior offensive player on the floor?
The minutes for Pritchard would have come from Hauser, who was not getting looks for 3's (not exactly his fault, team was having a problem) and was also getting beaten off the dribble (also was a teamwide problem last night). Hauser is great when he can hit 3's and just stay in front of his man. When that's not working for his 15 mins, why not stick Pritchard in there? Things he can do better than Hauser: dog his man relentlessly, run/finish in transition, get some rebounds. Hauser looked overwhelmed last night, Pritchard tends to look less so. Pritchard is not going to win the game but he might upset the Knicks' flow, stop Brunson or Hart a little, or spark a transition basket or two.
What I'm advocating is for that the objective should be to win, and the game plan should be a means to that end. And if that means is not getting you there, something else should be tried. Mazzulla more or less rode his plan to a 15 point loss.
So every time we are down 15 the coach should go into panic mode and run up worse lineups to reduce the lead? C’mon man. You still didn’t answer which gets benched for their rotation out of that group.
Perhaps the more pertinent question - how many games have the Cs lost when they played well? I can't think of any off the top of my head. When they play well, they win. That's a good trait to have.
And maybe NYK has improved by adding Josh Hart. They have won every game Hart has played in for them (6-0).
Serious question for those who think the Celtics are leaving food on the table in terms of wins: What should their record be at present if they went all out to win every game?
Now to answer that it feels like you need to answer this.
What about managing star minutes? Is there a way to optimize minutes so that you can dial back Tatum's usage and still capture every possible regular season win? Is subbing Pritchard for Tatum and Brown going to satisfy both requirements of winning games while sparing players workloads?
There are people here who think this team is not maximizing its current opportunities because the coach isn't pulling the right levers. Yet some of the same people are also concerned about running the teams best players into the ground. What gives?
Is there some secret lockdown lineup featuring Pritchard-Kornet-Griffin-Hauser-Grant that can play lockdown D for 20+ minutes while PP rains contested threes all over teams that isn't being used?
How do you optimize this team's regular season?
Now to answer that it feels like you need to answer this.
What about managing star minutes? Is there a way to optimize minutes so that you can dial back Tatum's usage and still capture every possible regular season win? Is subbing Pritchard for Tatum and Brown going to satisfy both requirements of winning games while sparing players workloads?
There are people here who think this team is not maximizing its current opportunities because the coach isn't pulling the right levers. Yet some of the same people are also concerned about running the teams best players into the ground. What gives?
Is there some secret lockdown lineup featuring Pritchard-Kornet-Griffin-Hauser-Grant that can play lockdown D for 20+ minutes while PP rains contested threes all over teams that isn't being used?
How do you optimize this team's regular season?
The Knicks’ offensive game plan revolves around Randall bumhunting. Pritchard can dog Gs. He can’t dog 6’8” 250 lb Fs. He would need to be shooting 100% from three to be an asset there.
I think there is a wide gap between “panic mode” and “failure to adjust at all,” Mazzulla is at one extreme, and he should be more willing to adjust without going all the way to panic mode.
This is a point that has gone underappreciated in these threads, which is that a lot of teams have gotten better this season. Not just at the deadline, but those too. Not going to be an easy path for the Celtics although they have a more favorable health prognosis than an older team like the Suns.
I don't think Pritchard makes a bit of difference last night.
I will go to my grave saying that putting in Blake in the 1st quarter over Muscala was fucking strange as shit though. Those 6 minutes that Blake was on the court, resulted in a -11 (2nd worst on the team last night). When Joe finally went to Muscala, it opened everything up a bit resulting in a couple of different Celtic runs. Muscala in his 11 minutes was a +/- of 0 (only him and D White weren't negative, White was also a 0).
Griffin came in with 5:36 to go in the 1st, in a 10-9 game. He finished the quarter by committing an offensive foul, a defensive foul, missed 2 3's, and the Knicks went on a 17-6 run, and finished the quarter leading 27-15. The C's never recovered from that.
That was my biggest issue with the coaching decisions last night, and a whole bunch of folks noted it immediately in the game thread.
Yep. The only nice stretch of the game was when they went five wides.
Yeah, I think I have to object to the characterization that Tatum was just walking the ball up and hoisting threes and/or they weren't competitive last night. That wasn't my takeaway from watching at all.
Just looking at the shot chart:
- White missed at least three wide-open threes from the corner, including one at the buzzer of the first half, which would have been a nice boost going into the locker room.
- As noted by Scal, Houser missed a wiiiiide open three from the corner that would have cut it to seven in the fourth; he missed and it turned into a layup on the other end, down 12.
- Three of Tatum's 8 misses from 3 were in the first five minutes of the game; after that he was generally shooting off of ball screens, where he can be deadly.
- The corner 3 is the most efficient shot in the NBA - Knicks were 7-9 from there, Cs were 2-11, if that evens out just a little, it's a tight game
I think it's really hard to argue that 9-42 from 3 is just something you need to battle through. Sometimes the shots don't go down and it's something that's a known-known with the way Joe wants to play. It's not like the last five minutes of this one was garbage time.
Just looking at the shot chart:
- White missed at least three wide-open threes from the corner, including one at the buzzer of the first half, which would have been a nice boost going into the locker room.
- As noted by Scal, Houser missed a wiiiiide open three from the corner that would have cut it to seven in the fourth; he missed and it turned into a layup on the other end, down 12.
- Three of Tatum's 8 misses from 3 were in the first five minutes of the game; after that he was generally shooting off of ball screens, where he can be deadly.
- The corner 3 is the most efficient shot in the NBA - Knicks were 7-9 from there, Cs were 2-11, if that evens out just a little, it's a tight game
I think it's really hard to argue that 9-42 from 3 is just something you need to battle through. Sometimes the shots don't go down and it's something that's a known-known with the way Joe wants to play. It's not like the last five minutes of this one was garbage time.
Very well put with the last line. The game was largely decided by the Celtics going 1-12 in the 1st quarter and 2/19 in the 1st half from deep. It seems strange to point to a lack of adjustments when they played the 2nd half even, and it stayed a competitive game until late despite such a disastrous start.
Exactly.
They were down 15 3rd Q. @ Philly. Does Joe get credit for staying the course and coming out with a win?
He did adjust against the Knicks, Blake didn't work, so he went with Muscala in the second.
Some off you guys act like Mazzulla would be obligated to keep Pritchard in the game and play him big minutes if he gave him some run on a night when the C's can't hit 3-pointers.
With Brogdon and Smart out, Pritchard was in the rotation recently and, more often than not, played well. If he comes in and hits his first shot, maybe Joe keeps him in for a while. If Pritch is throwing up bricks and/or getting abused on defense, then Joe can always yank him at the first opportunity.
With Brogdon and Smart out, Pritchard was in the rotation recently and, more often than not, played well. If he comes in and hits his first shot, maybe Joe keeps him in for a while. If Pritch is throwing up bricks and/or getting abused on defense, then Joe can always yank him at the first opportunity.
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I did not like CJM's rotations last night.
- They should have gone with a spread 5 offense earlier and more often last night.
- The two big line up currently stinks on both ends.
- Rob is not bringing that disruptive energy. He's not making the energy defensive plays, rim running, or forcing second chances like he can. He may benefit from playing shorter stints at a higher frequency.
- Drag Mitchell Robinson out to the damn arc and open up the paint for penetration.
- Credit to him for trying to go to Blake early to spread 5, but Blake wasn't that guy. Probably should have gone to Moose earlier.
- Hauser was garbage last night. He could not stay in front of Hart and Barrett and they killed him. He gave them very little in terms of shooting on the other end. The leash needs to be shorter with him. PP is not ideal with how physical the Knicks guards are, but Hauser wasn't it, and maybe PP can give you that energy.
- Grant turning into a pumpkin is tough on the rotations. I thought he was okay in the Philly game giving some good minutes against JoJo. But last night he was back to being slow on rotations, getting killed off the dribble, and contributing nothing on the offensive end. He's playing himself into another contract in Boston.
This feels like the heart of the matter. To be generous to CJM now is the time to figure out if the 2 big lineup is the one to roll with going into the post-season. This starting lineup simply doesn’t have a lot of minutes together this season and they have to figure it out because the rhythm and movement are not quite there.
White hopping back into the lineup absent Jaylen didn’t help.
Rob is not the same player as last year and that’s a glaring red flag. Maybe that’s just a function of gelling with this lineup again. It’s probably more important to figure that out now and live with the downside of the bumps along the way.
Horford/TimeLord playing together, using Adv Off/Def Rtg
Last year: 761 minutes 113.2 // 99.9 // +13.3
This year: 267 minutes 119.7 // 101.8 // +17.9
Combining Rob and Al on the floor isn't a problem.
https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced?GroupQuantity=2&Season=2022-23&TeamID=1610612738&dir=A&slug=advanced&sort=GROUP_NAME
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Pritchard grabs 4.2 rebounds per 36. Hauser 5.9
Pritchard is shooting 34.4% on drives to the basket. Hauser 61.5%
I guess Pritchard can dog his man though
Only in this sense: his injury timing sucked because he was playing the best basketball of his life right up until Tatum broke his face. I don't think there's reason to worry about him getting back to that form, but he does need to get there by June.
But wasn’t he pretty much there the two games following the ASB?
21/45 combined including 5/9 from 3 and going for 30 vs Indy and 26 vs Philly. I didn’t get a chance to watch much of those games so I am legit asking the question since I’m primarily using the box scores as evidence.
Yeah, he was their best player against Philly a lot of the game. Kept them in it early, and led the unit that built the 4Q lead. Indy was also solid.
They missed him a lot against the Knicks.
I've got no problem with what Jaylen has given them since he came back from getting his face busted up. My problem with Jaylen has been and will remain the turnovers. He's good for a handful of head scratchingly bad possessions every game and they seem to be concentrated during periods when the C's are struggling to get going and he's forcing it.
Just good wholesome Cs content with Brad hanging with KG and Pierce. And also Brad dragging Scal.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CpVUTtDDYsF/?igshid=NTdlMDg3MTY=
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CpVUTtDDYsF/?igshid=NTdlMDg3MTY=
The full episode (1 of 2) can be found here. It’s definitely worth the watch, Mazzulla has a great talk with them as well.
View: https://youtu.be/-7KcKY1NqWE
Made me wonder with all of the White talk (which is awesome), how the rotation guys compare for Assist%, Turnover% and ratio between:
Sorted by Turnover Rate
Player AST%/TOV%/Ratio
Marcus 28.3%/18.3%/1.55
Grant 8.8%/14.0%/.63
TL 9.3%/13.6%/.68
Brogdon 22.0%/12.0%/1.83
Jaylen 15.5%/11.9%/1.30
Jayson 21.4%/10.6%/2.02
White 19.5%/9.7%/2.01
Al 11.7%/7.5%/1.56
Sorted by Assist Rate
Player AST%/TOV%/Ratio
Marcus 28.3%/18.3%/1.55
Brogdon 22.0%/12.0%/1.83
Jayson 21.4%/10.6%/2.02
White 19.5%/9.7%/2.01
Jaylen 15.5%/11.9%/1.30
Al 11.7%/7.5%/1.56
TL 9.3%/13.6%/.68
Grant 8.8%/14.0%/.63
Sorted by Ratio
Player AST%/TOV%/Ratio
Jayson 21.4%/10.6%/2.02
White 19.5%/9.7%/2.01
Brogdon 22.0%/12.0%/1.83
Al 11.7%/7.5%/1.56
Marcus 28.3%/18.3%/1.55
Jaylen 15.5%/11.9%/1.30
TL 9.3%/13.6%/.68
Grant 8.8%/14.0%/.63
Conclusion: Tatum and White are the clear outliers as to creating for others without committing too many turnovers. MB is in that group but the bottom of that tier. Some others are decent at creating (Marcus) or avoiding turnovers (Al) but not both. Jaylen is kind of in the middle for both, but does neither great and scores out only above TL and Grant who are somewhat poor at both.
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Feels like that loss was on CJM. Had them up 28 and then lost by double digits. Just... where was the coaching there? I get that guys had to make plays, that shots weren't falling, but you should never, ever, EVER lose like that.
Just the opposite. Joe recognized early on that the focus wasn't there, but the team just didn't respond. Tatum, Brown and Smart have to be better and lead this team.
I'm still trying to figure out how the team goes from #1 on defense last year to dogshit D this year.
Dogshit? We’ve been among the best defensive teams across the board all season. One unfocused trap game in February doesn’t change that.
I guess we just don't know. It feels like a very well coached team wouldn't blow a 28 point lead and then lose by double digits.
Yes, Tatum, Brown, and Smart have to lead better but this was... whew.
I'm not sure it had to do with coaching. To me, the Cs went up big early and then loss focus, and then BRK spread out the Cs and attacked mismatches. The Cs turned the ball over and couldn't really stop Bridges or Dinwiddie consistently.
Switching defenses are great when a team has small guys who can battle big men and big men who can credibly guard on the perimeter. Because if a team doesn't, switching is just going to cause mismatches that can be exploited outside and inside. Tonight was the latter.
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Just the opposite. When did CJM have this epiphany, was it when the Celts were up 28 and running a fucking clinic that Red Auerbach would appreciate? Did he forsee an epic collapse? Very doubtful. IMO it more probable he did not have the tools to refocus a team that melted in the 2nd and 3rd qtrs. There was time to address the issues. IMO2 there is enough shared irresponsibility for both players and their coach tonight. No one gets a free pass.
Tonight's 180 was epic and memorable. Yes its just one game in March, but there have been too many games this year where this veteran team led by a rookie coach loses focus big leads and the game. It's a real problem they have to fix.
Ymmv
I think there is something wrong with the team, whether that be coaching or something else I have no idea.
I would be willing to write this game off as "Celtics just didn't have it today" or whatever except that Jaylen Brown played 42 mintes and Jayson Tatum played 37. There was a point early in the 4th Mazzulla should have pulled them all out and said "this was just one of those days, see you Monday." But Mazzulla desperately wanted to win this one and the team wasn't going to do it for him. On a different team in a different circumstance I would have said that this was a "firing the coach" game from the players. I don;t think that is the cas ehere but something seems deeply amiss.
One thing that happened is that Brooklyn went very small and destroyed the Celtics, who did not try to counter by going small.
Another thing that happened is Cam Johnson piked up 4 fould in 7 minutes in the firs thalf and the Celtics did not even attempt to target him in the third quarter.
As I've said before, Mazzulla is not good at adjusting on the fly.
The bizzarre thing is how hard the shorthanded Celtics played innthose last couple of games before the break and how poor the team has played since then. They are 3-2, but only one really good 48 minute effort and win, vs Philly.
Maybe it is not a big deal and the team just isn't motivated for this latter part of the season the way they will be in the playoffs. I can buy that. But if that's true, why are Tatum and Brown getting 40ish minutes in a blowout loss?
It seems clear to me they are trying to do two things simultaneously and that make sense to be doing at this stage of the season. 1) try to set rotations and get guys reps together that will be in place in the playoffs, and 2) go only 80% or really exactly the percentage of effort they need to win against their opponent, again looking forward to the next stage. But when they coast even a little, the way the team plays doesn't really work, and you end up like last night. I don't think this is like some sort of structural issue with the team or anything. We really just need to get to the playoffs intact.