2022-2023 General Celtics thread

The Mort Report

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 5, 2007
6,884
Concord
I don't get involved in the officiating discussion here much (its the equivalent of yelling at clouds) but imo, if you are seeking consistent and uniform enforcement across the league, you will be disappointed. From my perspective, its a given that superstars and certain bigs will be officiated differently than NBA ham and eggers. It has always been thus...
I'm just saying that if the NBA is going to make a conscious decision to curtail complaining about fouls but not calling it straightish then there will be ejections every 76ers and Bucks game. Probably Lakers too. Is that what the league really wants? Do you think they'll be able to force these guys into accepting a different set of rules for fouls?
 

radsoxfan

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 9, 2009
13,622
I saw that too and cringed. The memo cites language directed at an official. Hopefully this is a learning moment for Grant.
Yup, I read those lips too, pretty clear and I cringed as well.

Wouldn’t be surprised if that was a major part of the suspension given the female ref involved.
 

Saints Rest

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
The contact with the official did not seem fully intentional; more a matter of carelessness . But still, it’s a big no-no, and the punishment fits.
I agree about the lack of intention on the contact, but I wonder if the suspension is more due to the verbiage afterwards when he clearly went a bit crazy to find out he was T'ed up for that.
 

mwonow

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 4, 2005
7,095
Was it Tommy who got himself thrown out of a game so he could see the CBS broadcast of the Lakers' huddles during time outs?
 

Van Everyman

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2009
26,993
Newton
How much of the Grant tech and suspension do we think is related to the fact that it was a female referee? I actually think that’s a good thing if so. If not, both of those decisions are indefensibly bad.
 

Saints Rest

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
How much of the Grant tech and suspension do we think is related to the fact that it was a female referee? I actually think that’s a good thing if so. If not, both of those decisions are indefensibly bad.
I think it was somewhat related, but only because Grant called her a b----. In my mind, like the Tatum tech the other day, if the ref had let the bump go as unintentional contact, then GW doesn't go ballistic and never says anything. Well, nothing more than his usual complaining about any call against him.
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
18,099
I think it was somewhat related, but only because Grant called her a b----. In my mind, like the Tatum tech the other day, if the ref had let the bump go as unintentional contact, then GW doesn't go ballistic and never says anything. Well, nothing more than his usual complaining about any call against him.
And Grant is not going to get any benefit from unintentional contact when he complains about a call. It is up to Grant to avoid creating the contact in the first place in that situation.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
30,502
How much of the Grant tech and suspension do we think is related to the fact that it was a female referee? I actually think that’s a good thing if so. If not, both of those decisions are indefensibly bad.
The expulsion was based on the fact that GW brushed her. While he didn't intend it, as I said in the game thread, if he's going to show up a ref, he better not touch the ref (I don't it matters whether the ref is female or male).
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,113
Santa Monica
The expulsion was based on the fact that GW brushed her. While he didn't intend it, as I said in the game thread, if he's going to show up a ref, he better not touch the ref (I don't it matters whether the ref is female or male).
Frankly, he's lucky it's only one game. Popping up and acting like that is a jackass move. Dray-esque

As soon as he brushes her he needs to stop and apologize. Instead, he acts surprised and runs his mouth.
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
44,477
Melrose, MA
OK, this loss was a bad one - one that leads me to wonder where this team is headed.

It's only been 5 games, but we haven't seen a full 48 minute effort from the team yet. We haven't seen the team lock down on defense yet. Not for a whole game, but not even for ramping up the D when they need it in a game.

What this team reminds me of is last year's below .500 first half team (their nadir was a loss to the Knicks in early January that dropped their record to 18-20) or the .500 Brad Stevens team from the year before. Same kind of "one and a while we are going to actually dig in and compete" energy as those teams.

Through 4 games this team was a defensive mess, but they had - and this is rare in an NBA season - three full days off followed by a home game to work on cleaning up some of those issues. Yet, they still showed up with a spotty overall effort and poor defense. If they accomplished anything in those three days, not much of it was evident. This game brought back another failing from last year's first half - the inability to close out a close game. They also have the same fear of attacking rim protecting defenses from last year.

This is still a flashier offensive team than last year's edition, Brogdon helping a lot there, but it is also a team that can still be shut down offensively in key possessions, like last year's team.

Based on what I have seen so far, I expect a mediocre first half that looks a lot like Celtic mediocrity of the recent past, followed by an attempt to flip the switch in midseason, perhaps when Rob returns. I'm not predicting that - there's a long way to go to January - but If that was the case this is the way they would look. I'm not even 100% opposed to that approach, but if they are going to do they should dail back on minutes to key players instead of working them extra hard.

The Celtics were without Grant in this one, and Mazzulla started his small lineup against big, athletic, rim protecting Cleveland (Allen and Mobley) and it went about as poorly as one would expect. AFter about 5 minutes they were down 15-6 and Blake came in for White to match up better in terms of size. It didn't immediately help all that much, as Cleveland expanded its lead to 11 over the next 2 minutes.

Then Mazzulla went to Kornet from Blake who had picked up 2 fouls, and Kornet was one of the bright spots for the Celtics yesterday. He didn't light up the scoreboard, but the Celtics settled down and played better with him in. Over the rest of the quarter they stormed back into it, outscoring the Cavs 22-10 over the final five minutes of the quarter to take a 1 point lead.

The second quarter was all Celtics, 41-29, to put them up 13 headed into the half. Tatum and Brown were on first in this quarter, combining for 27 of the 41 points. Brown had 3 assists. They even went back to the single big lineup for about 5 minutes of the quarter and it was fine. But a lot of the second quarter success was shooting: they were 14-20 overall and 6-9 from three.

In the third quarter, Cleveland began to take control of the game, outscoring the Celtics by 9 to cut the lead to 4 going into the 4th. Tatuj m played the whole quarter and scored only 6 points on 3-5 shooting. Brown was even colder, shooting 1 for 5 and having 3 turnovers. Nobody picked up the slack.

The fourth quarter was the typical Celtics inability to close a game. Tatum was out for the first 5 minutes after playing the whole third, and when he came back in he was a nonentity. He was sitting on 30 points on 10-14 shooting (and 7-8 from the line), and the Celtics were up by 5 points when he came in. He shot 0 for 3, had 2 rebounds, and did nothing else. The Celtics as a team scored only 15 in the quarter.

The OT was a slaughter, with the Celtics being outscored 18-9.

Performances of note:

Tatum had a great first half and OK thord quarter before falling off the map in the 4th. He finished with 32 points. Brown had a good scoring game, also with 32 points, also adding 8 rebounds and 4 assists, but his game was marred by 6 turnovers. Brown and Tatum combined for 10 of the Celtics 19 turnovers.

Horford went 41 minutes in this game, and was good on offense (5-7 shooting and 4 assists for 12 points) but MIA on the glass (2 rebounds).

Smart had another terrible shooting game, 3 for 15 including 2 of 9 from three. In terms of shot selection, he was mostly taking catch and shoot threes in the flow of the offense (not early clock threes), which is hard to complain about. At the same time, if he's going to continue to shoot 23% from three, he needs to dial back on those, too.

Smart's biggest positive contribution to this game was his execution of 2 2-for-1 plays, at the ends of the first and third quarters. In Q1, the Cavs score to go up 4 with 33 seconds left. Smart drives and misses a layup with 29 seconds left, but Vonleh follows and dunks with 27 seconds. Cleveland misses a layup with about 5 seconds, Smart gets the rebound, brings the ball up, and hits Sam Hauser for a deep three at the buzzer. In Q3, Smart hits a 3 with 28 seconds left, Cleveland misses at the other end, and Smart gets the rebound and hits White with a full court pass for a layup with 1.2 seconds left. In retrospect, those are 2 improbably 5-0 runs that made the game look closer than it actually was.

Brogdon flashed his usual offensive skill, scoring 9 points and adding 5 assists in 22 minutes. Some good plays from him keyed the first quarter turnaround. He had one turnover when he tried to pass to an unsuspecting Blake, who took the ball off his face. Or maybe that turnover went to Blake? One thing I had hoped Brogdon might be the answer to - late game offensive struggles - did not materialize. He played 5:40 in the 4th quarter and his only impact on the stat sheet was one rebound. Did not attempt a shot nor get an assist. The OT was even worse, as he was a -6 in 1:43, during which his only stat was a foul.

Kornet played 25 minutes and was decent, held his own, collecting 4 points, 5 rebounds, and 3 assists. Against a good CLevaland frontcourt. Maybe the most optimistic thing about today's game is that Kornet showed he can gve them decent minutes against some teams. He looked lost in his previous game. Kornet, 7'2", does a weird thing I've never seen before when he is guarding the rim and the ball is swung to the corner for a three attempt. We are used to seeing smaller, more athletic bigs like Rob and Al close out tomthe corner to prevent (or in Rob's case block) a three attempt. Kornet cannot do that and instead does something I've never seen before - he comes out to the edge of the lane and then does a vertical leap with arms extended upward as though he is doing a verticality challenge of a drive. But he's nowhere near the shooter! The first couple of times I saw this I wondered if he was trying to concede the shot and not allow the guy in the corner to pass underneath for a layup. But then Scal explained what Kornet was actually doing on those plays: because he's 7'2", he can jump and get his hands up high enough to obscure the shooter's vision of the rim. I guess that might actually be effective for some shooters - a couple of guys did miss from the coner when Kornet was doing his thing. The other thing Kornet did in this game was get absolutely posterized by Mitchell.

Not too much to say about other guys. Vonleh and Blake did not play much but were OK in limited minutes, other than Blake letting a routine pass go off his face. Hauser played 11:40 and was somehow a +23 in that time, though he only scored 5 points himself.
 

Humphrey

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 3, 2010
3,163
You just know LeVert would suck every single night if he put on a green uniform, just one of those guys who kills you then fades into the background.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
30,502
This is the second game in a row where the Cs got torched by a guard who could score at all 3 levels. Last night it was LaVert's 41 (including 6-8 on 3P) and Monday night it was Dosunmu, who was 9-10 from the field including 4-4 from 3P. Part of the issue is that the Cs have no rim protection. Part of the issue also may be that teams are getting up for the Cs.

You look at Dosunmu's highlights below, and it's not just one thing. People are late on switches. Guys are biting on pump fakes. Open mid-range shots oagainst drop coverage. Even noted wing defender JT was beat fwice. I presume LaVert's highlights would be the same.

Maybe it takes some time to get on the same page or maybe TL cleans up a ton of mistakes. We shall see.

View: https://twitter.com/SBN_Ricky/status/1585015318350508032
 

bankshot1

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 12, 2003
24,652
where I was last at
cross posting from the game thread

Mitchell and Lavert put on an Elgin and Jerry offensive display and fucking torched the Celts.
I was curious and put the Google machine to work and according to my QnD search found that teammates scoring 40 or more points in the same game has happened about 15+ times in NBA history, including twice by Jerry and Elgin. (nice guess bankshot)

Last night was the 2nd time it happened to the Celts, the first being when the Sun's Paul Westphal (43) and Walter Davis (40) totaled 83 points against Boston Celtics on January 5, 1978.





https://www.allaboutbasketball.us/basketball-records/list-of-nba-teammates-that-scored-40-points-or-more-in-same-game.html
 

dhellers

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 31, 2005
4,203
Silver Spring, Maryland
...OK, this loss was a bad one - one that leads me to wonder where this team is headed....
... the inability to close out a close game. They also have the same fear of attacking rim protecting defenses from last year.
... Brogdon helping a lot there, but it is also a team that can still be shut down offensively in key possessions, like last year's team.
The D is a concern, but probably fixable with effort. And the D isn't so terrible as to be fatal flaw.

But combing blah D with an O that can disappear -- and you lose to even mediocre (ala Chicago) NBA teams, even when you build large leads.

And inconcistent O has been a problem the entire 2Js era.

I ascribe it to the lack of a 3rd dependable scorer; someone who can at least put up at least okay numbers against good teams playing serious D, especially in crunch times.
Even someone who is negative on D could help during serious droughts -- if the other team is scoring all the time, and you aren't scoring at all, your D can't get much worse but your O can get a lot better
(at least for a while).

Does that mean that the main Celts need is not another big man, but some kind of Vinnie Johnson? Or maybe give PP and Hauser a serious run to see if they can fill that role, while waiting for the Williamses to get healthy and/or control their tempers.
 

Just a bit outside

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 6, 2011
7,929
Monument, CO
The D is a concern, but probably fixable with effort. And the D isn't so terrible as to be fatal flaw.

But combing blah D with an O that can disappear -- and you lose to even mediocre (ala Chicago) NBA teams, even when you build large leads.

And inconcistent O has been a problem the entire 2Js era.

I ascribe it to the lack of a 3rd dependable scorer; someone who can at least put up at least okay numbers against good teams playing serious D, especially in crunch times.
Even someone who is negative on D could help during serious droughts -- if the other team is scoring all the time, and you aren't scoring at all, your D can't get much worse but your O can get a lot better
(at least for a while).

Does that mean that the main Celts need is not another big man, but some kind of Vinnie Johnson? Or maybe give PP and Hauser a serious run to see if they can fill that role, while waiting for the Williamses to get healthy and/or control their tempers.
I think Brogdon is that guy. He is a better third scorer than most teams can run out there.
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
12,678
You just know LeVert would suck every single night if he put on a green uniform, just one of those guys who kills you then fades into the background.
If he could arrange to play Boston 82 games a year he’d go down in NBA history as the GOAT.
 

Fishy1

Head Mason
SoSH Member
Nov 10, 2006
5,872
Huge game by Levert last night. I think that's the biggest story here. Guy who's played more than 50 games only once in his career, averaging around 18 since he elevated his game... went for 41. Celtics D wasn't great from what I watched of the game, but it took Levert and Mitchell having absurd games and hitting a bunch of fuck-you threes to send it to overtime.

I'm still not worried about this team. Defense is going to struggle till Rob comes back. Vonleh in particular was getting picked on last night. He's had some nice moments cleaning up the glass, but he's a major liability on the other end. Thought Kornet played pretty well even though he got posterized. I think him versus Vonleh is a wash but he was the better option last night

They've got to get Brogdon going. He's averaging just 22 mpg so far. That's fine if they want to shrink-wrap him for the playoffs, but I'd like to see him shooting more. I'd like to see the ball in White's hands more too. Those two guys combined for just ten shots last night while Smart took fifteen.

Smart's hit a rough patch with the shooting. Tough to watch him miss 12 shots in a game. But I think he's mostly been making good choices so far this season.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,113
Santa Monica
OK, this loss was a bad one - one that leads me to wonder where this team is headed.

It's only been 5 games, but we haven't seen a full 48 minute effort from the team yet. We haven't seen the team lock down on defense yet. Not for a whole game, but not even for ramping up the D when they need it in a game.

What this team reminds me of is last year's below .500 first half team (their nadir was a loss to the Knicks in early January that dropped their record to 18-20) or the .500 Brad Stevens team from the year before. Same kind of "one and a while we are going to actually dig in and compete" energy as those teams.

Through 4 games this team was a defensive mess, but they had - and this is rare in an NBA season - three full days off followed by a home game to work on cleaning up some of those issues. Yet, they still showed up with a spotty overall effort and poor defense. If they accomplished anything in those three days, not much of it was evident. This game brought back another failing from last year's first half - the inability to close out a close game. They also have the same fear of attacking rim protecting defenses from last year.

This is still a flashier offensive team than last year's edition, Brogdon helping a lot there, but it is also a team that can still be shut down offensively in key possessions, like last year's team.

Based on what I have seen so far, I expect a mediocre first half that looks a lot like Celtic mediocrity of the recent past, followed by an attempt to flip the switch in midseason, perhaps when Rob returns. I'm not predicting that - there's a long way to go to January - but If that was the case this is the way they would look. I'm not even 100% opposed to that approach, but if they are going to do they should dail back on minutes to key players instead of working them extra hard.

The Celtics were without Grant in this one, and Mazzulla started his small lineup against big, athletic, rim protecting Cleveland (Allen and Mobley) and it went about as poorly as one would expect. AFter about 5 minutes they were down 15-6 and Blake came in for White to match up better in terms of size. It didn't immediately help all that much, as Cleveland expanded its lead to 11 over the next 2 minutes.

Then Mazzulla went to Kornet from Blake who had picked up 2 fouls, and Kornet was one of the bright spots for the Celtics yesterday. He didn't light up the scoreboard, but the Celtics settled down and played better with him in. Over the rest of the quarter they stormed back into it, outscoring the Cavs 22-10 over the final five minutes of the quarter to take a 1 point lead.

The second quarter was all Celtics, 41-29, to put them up 13 headed into the half. Tatum and Brown were on first in this quarter, combining for 27 of the 41 points. Brown had 3 assists. They even went back to the single big lineup for about 5 minutes of the quarter and it was fine. But a lot of the second quarter success was shooting: they were 14-20 overall and 6-9 from three.

In the third quarter, Cleveland began to take control of the game, outscoring the Celtics by 9 to cut the lead to 4 going into the 4th. Tatuj m played the whole quarter and scored only 6 points on 3-5 shooting. Brown was even colder, shooting 1 for 5 and having 3 turnovers. Nobody picked up the slack.

The fourth quarter was the typical Celtics inability to close a game. Tatum was out for the first 5 minutes after playing the whole third, and when he came back in he was a nonentity. He was sitting on 30 points on 10-14 shooting (and 7-8 from the line), and the Celtics were up by 5 points when he came in. He shot 0 for 3, had 2 rebounds, and did nothing else. The Celtics as a team scored only 15 in the quarter.

The OT was a slaughter, with the Celtics being outscored 18-9.

Performances of note:

Tatum had a great first half and OK thord quarter before falling off the map in the 4th. He finished with 32 points. Brown had a good scoring game, also with 32 points, also adding 8 rebounds and 4 assists, but his game was marred by 6 turnovers. Brown and Tatum combined for 10 of the Celtics 19 turnovers.

Horford went 41 minutes in this game, and was good on offense (5-7 shooting and 4 assists for 12 points) but MIA on the glass (2 rebounds).

Smart had another terrible shooting game, 3 for 15 including 2 of 9 from three. In terms of shot selection, he was mostly taking catch and shoot threes in the flow of the offense (not early clock threes), which is hard to complain about. At the same time, if he's going to continue to shoot 23% from three, he needs to dial back on those, too.

Smart's biggest positive contribution to this game was his execution of 2 2-for-1 plays, at the ends of the first and third quarters. In Q1, the Cavs score to go up 4 with 33 seconds left. Smart drives and misses a layup with 29 seconds left, but Vonleh follows and dunks with 27 seconds. Cleveland misses a layup with about 5 seconds, Smart gets the rebound, brings the ball up, and hits Sam Hauser for a deep three at the buzzer. In Q3, Smart hits a 3 with 28 seconds left, Cleveland misses at the other end, and Smart gets the rebound and hits White with a full court pass for a layup with 1.2 seconds left. In retrospect, those are 2 improbably 5-0 runs that made the game look closer than it actually was.

Brogdon flashed his usual offensive skill, scoring 9 points and adding 5 assists in 22 minutes. Some good plays from him keyed the first quarter turnaround. He had one turnover when he tried to pass to an unsuspecting Blake, who took the ball off his face. Or maybe that turnover went to Blake? One thing I had hoped Brogdon might be the answer to - late game offensive struggles - did not materialize. He played 5:40 in the 4th quarter and his only impact on the stat sheet was one rebound. Did not attempt a shot nor get an assist. The OT was even worse, as he was a -6 in 1:43, during which his only stat was a foul.

Kornet played 25 minutes and was decent, held his own, collecting 4 points, 5 rebounds, and 3 assists. Against a good CLevaland frontcourt. Maybe the most optimistic thing about today's game is that Kornet showed he can gve them decent minutes against some teams. He looked lost in his previous game. Kornet, 7'2", does a weird thing I've never seen before when he is guarding the rim and the ball is swung to the corner for a three attempt. We are used to seeing smaller, more athletic bigs like Rob and Al close out tomthe corner to prevent (or in Rob's case block) a three attempt. Kornet cannot do that and instead does something I've never seen before - he comes out to the edge of the lane and then does a vertical leap with arms extended upward as though he is doing a verticality challenge of a drive. But he's nowhere near the shooter! The first couple of times I saw this I wondered if he was trying to concede the shot and not allow the guy in the corner to pass underneath for a layup. But then Scal explained what Kornet was actually doing on those plays: because he's 7'2", he can jump and get his hands up high enough to obscure the shooter's vision of the rim. I guess that might actually be effective for some shooters - a couple of guys did miss from the coner when Kornet was doing his thing. The other thing Kornet did in this game was get absolutely posterized by Mitchell.

Not too much to say about other guys. Vonleh and Blake did not play much but were OK in limited minutes, other than Blake letting a routine pass go off his face. Hauser played 11:40 and was somehow a +23 in that time, though he only scored 5 points himself.
No love for Hauser?

He has been effective in his limited minutes this season. He isn't nearly the defensive sieve many wrung their hands about in the off-season.

You're not the only one to forget about him so you're in good company
 

Imbricus

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 26, 2017
4,810
I watched the first half. At halftime, I checked the box score and thought, "If they can continue to hit 56% of their threes, they'll be unbeatable." Of course that's unsustainable.

I guess Kornet had a good game, but the memory I'll take away is him getting posterized by a guy who's a full foot shorter than he is. By season end, I think we'll probably be able to stitch together a highlight reel of Kornet getting posterized. He just doesn't seem to play with the kind of aggression or fire in the belly that you want to see from a guy coming off the bench, trying to carve out a bigger role for himself. Just contrast Kornet with Kabengele.

Anyway, the Celts got outrebounded 42-34 and Horford had a measly 2 rebounds. Cavs were just reaching up and over our guys to pluck the ball out of the air. I've seen a few stories this week that Brad is sniffing around on available bigs, which makes sense. Always got to be putting out feelers, and the Celts definitely have a need.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 24, 2002
48,209
I watched the first half. At halftime, I checked the box score and thought, "If they can continue to hit 56% of their threes, they'll be unbeatable." Of course that's unsustainable.

I guess Kornet had a good game, but the memory I'll take away is him getting posterized by a guy who's a full foot shorter than he is. By season end, I think we'll probably be able to stitch together a highlight reel of Kornet getting posterized. He just doesn't seem to play with the kind of aggression or fire in the belly that you want to see from a guy coming off the bench, trying to carve out a bigger role for himself. Just contrast Kornet with Kabengele.

Anyway, the Celts got outrebounded 42-34 and Horford had a measly 2 rebounds. Cavs were just reaching up and over our guys to pluck the ball out of the air. I've seen a few stories this week that Brad is sniffing around on available bigs, which makes sense. Always got to be putting out feelers, and the Celts definitely have a need.
I think Kornet's issue and the only issue is that he simply isn't as athletic as most of the people with whom he shares the court. Its not a motor issue - its the chassis. He seems to always be in the right position and he does some nifty little things in terms of setting seals. He just isn't in the same league physically with many of the other players.

Posters are fun but have no impact on wins/losses imo.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,113
Santa Monica
Kornet, Blake, Vonleh are scotch tape.

The good thing is Brad has no problem getting trades done. While PP is facing a numbers/minutes issue, he did show he can be a rotational player for a Finals team. Shooting is the most valuable commodity in the NBA and he's been up above 41% for 2 seasons. He also had the highest 3pt% after the AS break.

A defense-first bench BIG/frontcourt player should be attainable. Vanderbilt or Poeltl please (would need to use Gallo$$$+)
 

chilidawg

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 22, 2015
5,934
Cultural hub of the universe
Does that mean that the main Celts need is not another big man, but some kind of Vinnie Johnson? Or maybe give PP and Hauser a serious run to see if they can fill that role, while waiting for the Williamses to get healthy and/or control their tempers.
No, we're deep at guard already, which is partially why we're playing small a lot. Hauser maybe, I'm doubtful about PP. Talent up front is what we're lacking after losing both Gallinari and RW.

Defensively I think the problem is just as much the perimeter guys getting beat as it is the lack of help defense. The former just shouldn't be happening given the level and depth of talent we have there. The latter is a personnel issue imo.
 

Imbricus

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 26, 2017
4,810
I think Kornet's issue and the only issue is that he simply isn't as athletic as most of the people with whom he shares the court.
Eh, I don't know, though that might be part of it. Pritch isn't very athletic but he seems to play with a higher level of intensity. Kornet strikes me as more of a low-key guy.
 

Eagle3

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 26, 2004
574
On the Mitchell dunk Kornet was there in perfect position to defend the rim, but then as Mitchell came down the lane he backed up. That not only gave Mitchell room to go over him and reach the rim, but also eliminated the possibility of taking the charge since he was inside the circle. Not sure if he was afraid to take the hit or what, but all he had to do to avoid the poster was hold his ground and go straight up .
 

chilidawg

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 22, 2015
5,934
Cultural hub of the universe
On the Mitchell dunk Kornet was there in perfect position to defend the rim, but then as Mitchell came down the lane he backed up. That not only gave Mitchell room to go over him and reach the rim, but also eliminated the possibility of taking the charge since he was inside the circle. Not sure if he was afraid to take the hit or what, but all he had to do to avoid the poster was hold his ground and go straight up .
There was another play where he was in position to contest but didn't even get his hands up. Too soon to tell, but I'm not optimistic.
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
44,477
Melrose, MA
Here is Kornet's weird jumpy thing (twice on the clip below).

https://videos.nba.com/nba/pbp/media/2022/10/28/0022200072/251/443268ce-1006-cee3-6f79-db6bedb0d802_1280x720.mp4

https://www.celticsblog.com/2022/10/29/23429531/luke-kornet-sees-first-significant-minutes-of-the-regular-season-boston-celtics-cleveland-cavaliers

He even unveiled this defensive tactic where he attempts to block the view of the rim to perimeter shooters. “We’re visually-dependent people. If you can do it right, it can have some effect,” Kornet said after the game.

It’s a technique that the 7’2 center has been working on for the last two years and predominantly last season in the G-League. “I’ve been told it works. I came about it pretty organically,” Kornet said after a video went viral on social media during the game. “I’ve been told it makes a difference and in the amount of times I’ve used it, it seems to make a difference. If numbers start indicating otherwise, I’ll adjust.”
 

PedrosRedGlove

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 5, 2005
670
Eh, I don't know, though that might be part of it. Pritch isn't very athletic but he seems to play with a higher level of intensity. Kornet strikes me as more of a low-key guy.
Both can be true, Pritch has an exceptional motor, but his lack of athleticism and strength probably play a role in Kornet being so low key. If he tried playing with a high motor he'd probably get called for more fouls than Daniel Theis.

Kornet is particularly unathletic for a serviceable NBA player. Even compared to a bench player like Pritchard who has great quickness and is incredible at repeating his jumper consistently. I saw a draft profile that called Luke Kornet a "below the rim" player, Luke Kornet has a 9'6" standing reach.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
30,502
The D is a concern, but probably fixable with effort. And the D isn't so terrible as to be fatal flaw.

But combing blah D with an O that can disappear -- and you lose to even mediocre (ala Chicago) NBA teams, even when you build large leads.

And inconcistent O has been a problem the entire 2Js era.

I ascribe it to the lack of a 3rd dependable scorer; someone who can at least put up at least okay numbers against good teams playing serious D, especially in crunch times.
Even someone who is negative on D could help during serious droughts -- if the other team is scoring all the time, and you aren't scoring at all, your D can't get much worse but your O can get a lot better
(at least for a while).

Does that mean that the main Celts need is not another big man, but some kind of Vinnie Johnson? Or maybe give PP and Hauser a serious run to see if they can fill that role, while waiting for the Williamses to get healthy and/or control their tempers.
Hauser and PP are shooters, not scorers.

I think one of the issue with the Cs offense is that it doesn't seem like they have a go-to play that they can count on to get buckets. Both JT and JB are great players but other than 3Ps and transition, they have to work really hard to get to to get their buckets. And last year, their transcendent D led to a lot of easy buckets which made their offensive half-court issues less noticeable.

They have never really figured out what to run when they really really need a bucket. As seen by the elbow fadeaway jumper that JT shot with the game on the line.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,113
Santa Monica
Hauser and PP are shooters, not scorers.

I think one of the issue with the Cs offense is that it doesn't seem like they have a go-to play that they can count on to get buckets. Both JT and JB are great players but other than 3Ps and transition, they have to work really hard to get to to get their buckets. And last year, their transcendent D led to a lot of easy buckets which made their offensive half-court issues less noticeable.

They have never really figured out what to run when they really really need a bucket. As seen by the elbow fadeaway jumper that JT shot with the game on the line.
Tatum's ISO dribble fest to burn game clock and take the last shot rarely yields a good look (or results)
 

128

Member
SoSH Member
May 4, 2019
10,016
Tatum's ISO dribble fest to burn game clock and take the last shot rarely yields a good look (or results)
I know it's unfair to compare players, even super-talented ones, to Bird, but I always thought No. 33 was going to nail that last shot. When it goes in for Tatum, I'm as surprised as I am happy.
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
44,477
Melrose, MA
Well, this was the game where the Celtics mostly had their defense going and kept Washington from doing much more than cutting the elad to the high single digits on a couple of runs.

They came out flying, hitting shots, locked in on D, and looking excellent in the first, which they won 34-15. In the second quarter they built their lead up to 24 before letting some sloppiness settle into their game and allowing Washington to close to within 11 at the half, winning the quarter 32-24. The offensive in the firs thalf was mostly Brown (21) and Tatum (18).

The third quarter was back and forth for a while, Celtics adding one point to their lead in the first 7.5 minutes. Then Brogdon basically took over. The Celtics went on a 9-4 2 minute run where Brogdon scored all 9 for them, upping the Celtic lead to 17. Brogdon also assisted on a Hauser three before the quarter ended and the Celtics took a 19 point lead into the 4th.

They never closed to within 20 in the 4th (until the garbage time end) and Mazzulla yarked the starters and Brogdon with 5 minutes to go. FInal score 112-94, the firs time this season that the Celtics have held an opponent below 100.

Brown was the game's high scorer with 24 points (and 10 rebounds) in 30 minutes. Tatum added 23 points, 4 rebounds, 3 assists, and a steal in 27 minutes.

The next most notable Celtic tonight was Brogdon, who had his Celtic high of 23 points in 23 minutes. And more than the points, he just broke the game open for the Celtics late in the third. He shot 6-12 from the field, 3-5 from three, and a perfect 8-8 from the line. He had his drive and ctahc and shoot working for him tonight. When he broke the game open by scoring 9 straight Celtic points, it began with him getting foulded on drives and ended with a ctahc and shoot three. He also added 4 assists, second on the team after Smart.

Marcus is still shooting poorly, 2-6, and 1-5 from three, but he led the team with 6 assists, added 3 rebounds and 2 steals, and did not turn it over.

Horford and White had quiet games, each playing 24 minutes.

Grant was back and scored 10 points along with 3 rebounds and 3 assists, and did not turn it over, although he played in garbage time and some of his stats are from that. Grant's passing looks improved this year.

Luke Kornet was the first big off the bench, and he had another decent game. In 19 minutes, he had 3 points, 4 rebounds, 3 assists, 2 blocks, and 3 turnovers - at least one of those was an offensive foul setting a screen. He scored his 3 points in the fourth quarter on - and I am not making this up - a sidestep three! Brogdon drove, kicked it out to Kornet in the corner, a Wizard player closed out, and Kornet calmly took a dribble, stepped to the side, and buried a three. He also did his "jump to contest from 15 feet away" thing a couple of times, and, as dumb as it looks, the one guy who shot "over" him missed. On the negative side, there is a real timidness to his game sometimes - Scal called him out for his unwillingness to go up strong when he gets the ball under the basket. In one respect - and one respect only - he reminds me of Rob. When he gets the ball under the basket with a defender on him, he immediately passes it out. All in all, I like the guy. I mean, he is what he is - a replacement level NBA big - but he seems like one who can fit in here and help bridge the gap to Rob. He does need to learn to get after it more. Speaking of which...

Sam Hauser is a guy who is starting to get after it more. He shot 3-5 from three in 23 minutes, including garbage time, scoring 9 points. I think the threes he hit were all of the catch and shoot variety, while the two he missed were ones he dribbled or stepped into. I don't think I've seen him hit a non-catch-and-shoot three all year. But in addition to his threes, he also had 5 rebounds (third on the team behind Brown and Al), 2 assists, a steal, and a block. He puts effort in on D and on the glass. Back in the preseason, he had a couple of good games where Brogdon was feeding him catch and shoot opportinities and he was burying them. I mention that because he often plays with Brogdon and Brogdon has no hesitation whatsoever about getting him the ball. His first 3, which he missed, was in transition where Brogdon was a little too eager to get him the ball - got it to him where he had to take a step before launching, and he missed. Anyway, he's acclimating to the league and earning his minutes.

This is not great, BTW, and maybe explains why we are not seeing Marcus at his best so far:
View: https://twitter.com/John_Karalis/status/1586882950456647681?s=20&t=_-rJ1J3k1ZGM_YE5ggI21Q

John Karalis: Asked Marcus Smart how he's feeling physically.. he smiled and said he's ok "for the most part." Says the slip in Montreal aggravated his past oblique and hip issue
 

dhellers

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 31, 2005
4,203
Silver Spring, Maryland
Hauser and PP are shooters, not scorers.

I think one of the issue with the Cs offense is that it doesn't seem like they have a go-to play that they can count on to get buckets. Both JT and JB are great players but other than 3Ps and transition, they have to work really hard to get to to get their buckets. And last year, their transcendent D led to a lot of easy buckets which made their offensive half-court issues less noticeable.

They have never really figured out what to run when they really really need a bucket. As seen by the elbow fadeaway jumper that JT shot with the game on the line.
Perhaps Brogdon can be a consistent scorer. He took the game over in the 3rd q vs the zards! But against quality defences?
 

Jed Zeppelin

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 23, 2008
51,291
Hauser simply being tall makes a lot of difference. You think you can always just attack guys like this but it tends not to be that simple unless they are really lead-footed. So far in defensive situations he is doing enough to make guys work for shots.
 

bellowthecat

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2010
589
Massachusetts
In consecutive defensive possessions Hauser guarded Beal and Porzingis 1 on 1. Beal didn't score and Porzingis passed the ball away. I know Beal had a rough night, but Hauser acquitted himself well in both instances. 6 games in and he has looked surprisingly competent as a defender. Nesmith wishes he had Sam's footwork.
 

gattman

New Member
Jul 15, 2005
263
Silver Spring, MD
In consecutive defensive possessions Hauser guarded Beal and Porzingis 1 on 1. Beal didn't score and Porzingis passed the ball away. I know Beal had a rough night, but Hauser acquitted himself well in both instances. 6 games in and he has looked surprisingly competent as a defender. Nesmith wishes he had Sam's footwork.
It’s funny— during the playoffs this past season my 9 year old suddenly became a big basketball fan. Like absorbing everything. So we watched everything during the preseason. And we’re watching a game and he says definitively “I like Sam Hauser. He’ll be good. You shouldn’t make fun of him.”

Message received. Hauser is a f’n great shooter, We knew that. But he reliably knocks down every open shot (which puts pressure on the D opening up other things). But he also works his ass off on D, has a good BB IQ, has size, and can generally handle himself on the court.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
11,997
I don't see a good reason that Hauser should not play 25+ a night all the time. The D is completely fine, and his shooting is extremely real and opens up the floor a lot.

That Brogdon/Jaylen/Grant/Hauser/Kornet lineup was very hard to guard.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
11,997
I wonder if the Cs brass think they have a rebounding issue or whether they think it will be fixed when TL comes back?
The thing is, when they play Kornet at backup C, the team isn't small at all. My guess is that they feel like
a) can't get away with Grant at backup C much
b) need to emphasize effort on the boards they way they have on D; both have been lacking
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,113
Santa Monica
I wonder if the Cs brass think they have a rebounding issue or whether they think it will be fixed when TL comes back?
Playing small (replacing TL with White) with Horford as your Center (a poor rebounding 5) is definitely leading to rebounding issues. When TL returns it lets every other starter return to having a size advantage (Smart/Brown/Tatum as your 1-3 is SIZEABLE). Then the rebounding issue is neutralized. Still expect Brad to add rotational frontcourt help in Jan/Feb and ramp up Rob slowly to have him peak during the playoffs.

I don't see a good reason that Hauser should not play 25+ a night all the time. The D is completely fine, and his shooting is extremely real and opens up the floor a lot.

That Brogdon/Jaylen/Grant/Hauser/Kornet lineup was very hard to guard.
Hauser's footwork/fundamentals on defense are worlds better than Aaron Nesmith (plus Sam doesn't look terrified when playing). A masterstroke by Brad of getting out of AN development hell and adding a better version of that archetype

Beal hunted Hauser, with zero success. Couldn't get around him + Sam challenged BB's shot without fouling.

A second unit of:
Brogdon/Hauser/Grant "Bro Hausnt" +
a BIG +
a JAY
could be weaponized. Both Corner Offices' will warp the defense with Brogdon breaking down 2nd unit PGs from the top. Kornet isn't a bad option since he's quick to pass out of the post for a step in 3
 

Koufax

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
5,936
As Scal indicated last night, it would be most helpful if Kornet would go to the hoop every once in a while. If he passes out every time, the passing lanes will close down.
 

chilidawg

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 22, 2015
5,934
Cultural hub of the universe
As Scal indicated last night, it would be most helpful if Kornet would go to the hoop every once in a while. If he passes out every time, the passing lanes will close down.
OTOH, of the three times I recall him getting the ball down low, twice he was doubled and made a pass out for an open 3. The third was the time Scal commented on, and he definitely had an opportunity to score there that he passed up.

Random early season stats:

JT shooting 56/41/90 is sick.
Marcus shooting 32/22/87 is sickly.
C's are -6pts/100 with Marcus on the floor, +20 with him on the bench.
Sam Hauser has taken 18 threes and 1 two.
GW has an efg% of 91. Hauser at 84%.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,113
Santa Monica
As Scal indicated last night, it would be most helpful if Kornet would go to the hoop every once in a while. If he passes out every time, the passing lanes will close down.
Agreed. A dunk/layup trumps all.

Finding an opposing 2nd unit disciplined enough to not have a player drawn into the lane, when the ball is in the post, would be unique. Asking bench players to stay on the perimeter, front Brown/Grant/Brogdon/Hauser, while closing all passing lanes is easier said than done.

In theory, baiting Kornet into shooting a fadeaway, should be the opponents' strategy.

Doesn't really matter too much since Luke is scotch tape until Brad upgrades the frontcourt.
 

GreenMonsterVsGodzilla

Member
SoSH Member
OTOH, of the three times I recall him getting the ball down low, twice he was doubled and made a pass out for an open 3. The third was the time Scal commented on, and he definitely had an opportunity to score there that he passed up.

Random early season stats:

JT shooting 56/41/90 is sick.
Marcus shooting 32/22/87 is sickly.
C's are -6pts/100 with Marcus on the floor, +20 with him on the bench.
Sam Hauser has taken 18 threes and 1 two.
GW has an efg% of 91. Hauser at 84%.
and Grant at the top of the leaderboard in 3P% with Hauser in the top 10.