2022-2023 General Celtics thread

Saints Rest

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The Celtics have eight players shooting 40% or higher from three. That’s insane.

The team is at 50/40/85% for the season.

Even Smart is shooting 36% from three, and an encouraging 53.6% from two. The excellent spacing and ball movement creates lots of open space inside the arc.

Mazzulla has an offensive juggernaut on his hands. Every player accepts his role, and thrives in it. It’s really a beautiful example of efficient offense in its purest form in the three point era.

Hauser has exactly one unassisted basket this season, a putback. Every AL three has been assisted. 89% of White’s threes have been assisted. 91% for Grant Williams.

Open catch and shoot threes off ball movement has their offense looking like shootaround. Even Tatum is relying less on self generated threes, at 69% assisted this season, compared to 58% last year. It’s going to be very interesting when they add a top rim runner like Rob Williams to the offense.
I wonder if Smart is benefiting as well from the 3PA being reduced because the style of offense AND the depth of the offense has reduced the number of times that he either has to, or feels like he has to, launch 3's.
Fake EDIT: Looked at Marcus's stats. His 3PA/game is almost exactly the same as last year (5.0 vs 5.1), but his 3P% is up from 33% to 36%
 

ehaz

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I was admittedly not the biggest fan of the Gallo signing when it was announced, but it's kinda crazy that the best catch-and-shoot 3P guy on the roster probably won't play a minute this season. Without the ACL, would Gallo be shooting like 55% from 3 or something insane like that in Mazzulla-ball?
 

GreenMonster49

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It's weird for us old-time NBA fans, but it makes a ton of sense, in terms of saving travel (in terms of player health/fatigue). Why make two trips to a city when you could just make one trip and play two games.
If you're a real old-time NBA fan, playing two games in a row in a city happened a few times a season (as far as I can tell from game logs, at least from 1951-52 through 1965-66).
 

HomeRunBaker

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The other shoe to drop? This team will be better once PTL is ready to go
It will depend on his usage. He changes a lot and change to this offensive unit can only go in one direction as it’s operating at its max productivity.
 

benhogan

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It will depend on his usage. He changes a lot and change to this offensive unit can only go in one direction as it’s operating at its max productivity.
I imagine the teams' offense will not take a hit with TL over Kornet (4 OUT/1 IN).

I know Marcus got DPOTY but I got Rob being the bigger cog in the Boston Clampdown.

More rebounding from Rob will correct the only thing missing from this team.

140 here we come! ;)
 

SteveF

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TL probably hurts the offense when he plays over Horford.
The spacing is worse with TL, but the offensive rebound rate will improve to mitigate that to some degree. Plus there's the lob threat which could improve the Celtics ability to get to and finish at the rim.
I think TL is a complete offensive upgrade over Kornet.
-----
Some stats others might find interesting:

Smart as PnR ball handler: 1.3 PPP on 2.4 possessions/game (98.3 percentile).
Brown as PnR ball handler: 1.08 PPP on 3.5 possession/game (89.8 percentile)
White as PnR ball handler: 1.06 PPP on 2.2 possession/game (88.2 percentile)
Tatum Post Ups: 1.41 PPP on 1.5 possessions/game (100 percentile).
 

benhogan

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TL probably hurts the offense when he plays over Horford.
The spacing is worse with TL, but the offensive rebound rate will improve to mitigate that to some degree. Plus there's the lob threat which could improve the Celtics ability to get to and finish at the rim.
I think TL is a complete offensive upgrade over Kornet.
-----
Some stats others might find interesting:

Smart as PnR ball handler: 1.3 PPP on 2.4 possessions/game (98.3 percentile).
Brown as PnR ball handler: 1.08 PPP on 3.5 possession/game (89.8 percentile)
White as PnR ball handler: 1.06 PPP on 2.2 possession/game (88.2 percentile)
Tatum Post Ups: 1.41 PPP on 1.5 possessions/game (100 percentile).
I'd keep White in the starting unit and let Rob work his way back with the 2nd unit

There are probably only a handful of starting units better than Brogdon/Hauser/Grant/TL/Tatum (that would start Q2/Q4)
 

lexrageorge

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It will depend on his usage. He changes a lot and change to this offensive unit can only go in one direction as it’s operating at its max productivity.
I was going to suggest that TL start on the bench, but @benhogan beat me to it. Williams will also help late in Q4 in close games where a key rebound or block or steal can be just as important as a basket, and it will be more difficult for the Celtics to get off an open 3 in rhythm.
 

dhellers

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I was going to suggest that TL start on the bench, but @benhogan beat me to it. Williams will also help late in Q4 in close games where a key rebound or block or steal can be just as important as a basket, and it will be more difficult for the Celtics to get off an open 3 in rhythm.
Al is a solid and useful player, but when he is running on rationed energy he is not impactful.

Which is to say: If Al plays 28 vs 32 minutes per game, his 1 to 28 minutes will be BETTER ; and whoever (TL) takes his 28 to 32 minutes will contrribute more than AL would of.

IOW: figuring out TL's minutes is nice problem to have!
 

benhogan

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I was going to suggest that TL start on the bench, but @benhogan beat me to it. Williams will also help late in Q4 in close games where a key rebound or block or steal can be just as important as a basket, and it will be more difficult for the Celtics to get off an open 3 in rhythm.
I've been a shrink-wrap Al/TL proponent for a while. Splitting the 5 minutes between Rob and Al would protect them until the playoffs. I could also see them go double BIG in certain matchups.

Basically, CJM should experiment with lineups between now and Game 70
 

Jakarta

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I've been a shrink-wrap Al/TL proponent for a while. Splitting the 5 minutes between Rob and Al would protect them until the playoffs. I could also see them go double BIG in certain matchups.

Basically, CJM should experiment with lineups between now and Game 70
With the emergence of Kornet at a serviceable backup, I think they can give Al and TL 1 out of every 3 games off for the next couple months, and in the games they do play, keep minutes to a max of 32 (ideally more like 26-28). They can then re-evaluate in Mid-February and decide if they want to ramp up minutes/game frequency in anticipation of the playoffs.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I imagine the teams' offense will not take a hit with TL over Kornet (4 OUT/1 IN).

I know Marcus got DPOTY but I got Rob being the bigger cog in the Boston Clampdown.

More rebounding from Rob will correct the only thing missing from this team.

140 here we come! ;)
I’m all-in on TL taking Kornet’s 14-18 min on a nightly basis on the second unit for a multitude of reasons.
 

benhogan

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With the emergence of Kornet at a serviceable backup, I think they can give Al and TL 1 out of every 3 games off for the next couple months, and in the games they do play, keep minutes to a max of 32 (ideally more like 26-28). They can then re-evaluate in Mid-February and decide if they want to ramp up minutes/game frequency in anticipation of the playoffs.
Agreed.
Back-to-backs and playing sub-.500 teams could be a good spot for load mgmt for one of TL/Al + a wing/ball handler (recent Charlotte/Wash approach)...This would lead to Kornet/PP getting ~15 mpg in those situations
 

TripleOT

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Tatum‘s offense was trash in the second Heat game at home, after lighting them up 48 hours previous. This was one of the few times this season that Boston let its offense get bogged down. Brogdon was off too, turning in a minus 20, going 2-7 for 6 points, and zero assists.

Boston was up 13 with the ball with 3:15 left in the third, but Brown characteristically fumbled the ball at the top, leading to a Butler runout that keyed a little Miami run that kept them in the game. Besides the five untimely turnovers, JB had a big game, with 37 points on 23 shots, 14 rebounds, 5 assists, and a crazy banked three to tie up the game with 1.6 seconds left.
 

Jimbodandy

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They'll need to adjust a bit. Miami was able to successfully spiderman zone all night and most of the regular drivers were kinda rendered ineffective (basically everyone except Brown). They forced everyone to shoot long, and shots did not drop. Tonight is another example of why you need other ways to beat a team (e.g. defense would have been nice). This one was reminiscent of some of the bad losses last year--let the other team hang around through lax defense and turnovers, with some poor shooting and bad ball stagnation mixed in, then their closers finish the job at crunch time.

Good to get this one on film imo. Gives Joe something to work on with them.
 

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After last night’s game, what jumps out as the thing not mentioned with PTL’s return is six more fouls at the quality end of the roster. How different would things have been if, when Al and Jayson had to sit, they could have brought Williams in?

My God, what a luxury. Salivating…
 

Eddie Jurak

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This was an ugly game reminiscent of the Celtics struggles in the playoffs last year. All the old flaws were there on display:
  • Poor ballhandling and a ton of turnovers
  • Lots of offensive sets where just one player handled the ball, often ending with a contested three or a drive into traffic that got swallowed up
  • Allowing Miami to do a ton of damage on the offensive glass
  • Ballhandlers wilting under defensive pressure
  • Poor contribution from the bench (aside from Grant who was excellent)
  • Giving up a big (13-0) run in the 4th quarter and not showing composure down the stretch
  • Letting weird and erratic officiating throw them off their game
Basically, Miami broke the vaunted Celtics offense and the Celtics spent a lot of the game looking uncomfortable and disinterested. (For the game, I mean, I don't think the Celtics will suffer lasting ill effects from this one, although it does suggest that they haven't gone nearly as far towards fixing last years playoff problems as it might have looked.)

A couple of things I thought were especially disappointing:
  • I thought getting and keeping the Celtics out of ruts like the spent this game in was a big part of the reason why Malcolm Brogdon was acquired, but he played one of his worst games as a Celtic and didn't see the floor during crunch time. He played 21 minutes, shot 2 of 7, no assists, 2 rebounds, 1 steal, 1 turnover, and was a team worst -20. If it turns out that he is more of an offensive accelerant (makes the offense play better when it is already playing well) rather than a guy who can set the tone, he may not be the playoff solution I had hoped he could be. Too soon to judge, but this is exactly the kind of game I would have wanted to see him make a positive impact.
  • Mazzulla had no in-game answers to this. Whatever he maight have said or tried, none of it impacted the game. Just one week ago, against Sacramento, with the Celtics looking lifeless and out of sync, Mazzulla went to fan favorite Payton Pritchard who sparked an immediate turnaround leading to a convincing win. Today, Pritchard did not even get a look. Even though he can handle the ball and the Celtics as a unit struggled to do that all game, even though the Celtics might have benefited from getting the crowd into it just as they did last week, Mazzulla did not even look at him.
Luke Kornet played only 10 minutes and hyperextended a knee. It didn't look good and IANAOS but it looked like he'll be on the shelf for a bit.

Jayson Tatum was awful: 5 for 18 from the field, 0 of 7 from three, only 6 trips to the line. He did have 12 rebounds, but he also had 5 turnovers. A lot of his threes were from offensive sets where 4 guys stood around and watched him launch a contested shot.

Marcus Smart had a solid in-the-paint game. He shot 8 for 14 overall in which he was perfect from 2 but terrible (1 of 7) from three. He also had 9 assists, usual for him, but also 4 turnovers, which was reminiscent of last year's playoff Marcus.

Jaylen Brown was the one star on the team who mostly managed to have success. He led the team with 37 points, on 12-23 shooting, including 5-11 from three, got to the line more than Tatum, hit 8 of 9 from the line, and hauled down 14 rebounds and had 5 assists. He was consistently willing to get the ball and try to drive, even as his teammates tended to prefer to stand around on the perimeter. He was able to get through some pretty thin seams to reach the basket, but sometimes he tried to drive through seams that went there, leading to 5 turnovers. When Smart, Tatum, and Brown combine for 14 turnovers in a game, it is problably not going to be a win for the Celtics.

Other than Brown and Smart, the only really strong performance was Grant. He scored 18 points on 6 of 8 shooting (4 of 6 from three), plus 4 rebounds, 2 assists, a steal and a block in 33 minutes. He has been mastering the sidestep three and hit a couple of huge ones in this game.

White was OK, Kornet was mostly a non-factor before getting hurt, Hauser was mediocre in relatively short minutes. His line says 1 of 3 from three, but one miss was a halfcourt heave.

The officiating in this one was also bizarre, with all sorts of ticky tack fouls being called on both sides.

I wonder how much of this was due to the two straight home games vs Miami factor. Spoelstra had the chance to make adjustments after the first game.

This was probably a good game for the Celtics to have played at this point, because Mazzulla needed to see this happen from the sideline. He needs to fix this.
 

Reverend

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Could part of the reason for Brogdon’s poor performance be that he had to play out of his normal role of coming in to lead the second unit because he was called into service much earlier in the first quarter due to Al and Tatum having to sit?
 

128

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This was an ugly game reminiscent of the Celtics struggles in the playoffs last year. All the old flaws were there on display:
  • Poor ballhandling and a ton of turnovers
  • Lots of offensive sets where just one player handled the ball, often ending with a contested three or a drive into traffic that got swallowed up
  • Allowing Miami to do a ton of damage on the offensive glass
  • Ballhandlers wilting under defensive pressure
  • Poor contribution from the bench (aside from Grant who was excellent)
  • Giving up a big (13-0) run in the 4th quarter and not showing composure down the stretch
  • Letting weird and erratic officiating throw them off their game
Basically, Miami broke the vaunted Celtics offense and the Celtics spent a lot of the game looking uncomfortable and disinterested. (For the game, I mean, I don't think the Celtics will suffer lasting ill effects from this one, although it does suggest that they haven't gone nearly as far towards fixing last years playoff problems as it might have looked.)

A couple of things I thought were especially disappointing:
  • I thought getting and keeping the Celtics out of ruts like the spent this game in was a big part of the reason why Malcolm Brogdon was acquired, but he played one of his worst games as a Celtic and didn't see the floor during crunch time. He played 21 minutes, shot 2 of 7, no assists, 2 rebounds, 1 steal, 1 turnover, and was a team worst -20. If it turns out that he is more of an offensive accelerant (makes the offense play better when it is already playing well) rather than a guy who can set the tone, he may not be the playoff solution I had hoped he could be. Too soon to judge, but this is exactly the kind of game I would have wanted to see him make a positive impact.
  • Mazzulla had no in-game answers to this. Whatever he maight have said or tried, none of it impacted the game. Just one week ago, against Sacramento, with the Celtics looking lifeless and out of sync, Mazzulla went to fan favorite Payton Pritchard who sparked an immediate turnaround leading to a convincing win. Today, Pritchard did not even get a look. Even though he can handle the ball and the Celtics as a unit struggled to do that all game, even though the Celtics might have benefited from getting the crowd into it just as they did last week, Mazzulla did not even look at him.
Luke Kornet played only 10 minutes and hyperextended a knee. It didn't look good and IANAOS but it looked like he'll be on the shelf for a bit.

Jayson Tatum was awful: 5 for 18 from the field, 0 of 7 from three, only 6 trips to the line. He did have 12 rebounds, but he also had 5 turnovers. A lot of his threes were from offensive sets where 4 guys stood around and watched him launch a contested shot.

Marcus Smart had a solid in-the-paint game. He shot 8 for 14 overall in which he was perfect from 2 but terrible (1 of 7) from three. He also had 9 assists, usual for him, but also 4 turnovers, which was reminiscent of last year's playoff Marcus.

Jaylen Brown was the one star on the team who mostly managed to have success. He led the team with 37 points, on 12-23 shooting, including 5-11 from three, got to the line more than Tatum, hit 8 of 9 from the line, and hauled down 14 rebounds and had 5 assists. He was consistently willing to get the ball and try to drive, even as his teammates tended to prefer to stand around on the perimeter. He was able to get through some pretty thin seams to reach the basket, but sometimes he tried to drive through seams that went there, leading to 5 turnovers. When Smart, Tatum, and Brown combine for 14 turnovers in a game, it is problably not going to be a win for the Celtics.

Other than Brown and Smart, the only really strong performance was Grant. He scored 18 points on 6 of 8 shooting (4 of 6 from three), plus 4 rebounds, 2 assists, a steal and a block in 33 minutes. He has been mastering the sidestep three and hit a couple of huge ones in this game.

White was OK, Kornet was mostly a non-factor before getting hurt, Hauser was mediocre in relatively short minutes. His line says 1 of 3 from three, but one miss was a halfcourt heave.

The officiating in this one was also bizarre, with all sorts of ticky tack fouls being called on both sides.

I wonder how much of this was due to the two straight home games vs Miami factor. Spoelstra had the chance to make adjustments after the first game.

This was probably a good game for the Celtics to have played at this point, because Mazzulla needed to see this happen from the sideline. He needs to fix this.
Good stuff. When the C's are sluggish, as they were for much of the game, I don't understand why Mazzulla often doesn't give Pritchard a look.
 

tims4wins

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Great recap EJ.

I love that they played this type of back to back at home. It's awesome for playoff prep, it's the exact same schedule. Hopefully Joe & Co learn from it.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Great recap EJ.

I love that they played this type of back to back at home. It's awesome for playoff prep, it's the exact same schedule. Hopefully Joe & Co learn from it.
It struck me as a weird thing that I have never seen before, and really does seem to hand an advantage to the team that lost the first game. But I do think it is good, the league should keep it.
 

tims4wins

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It struck me as a weird thing that I have never seen before, and really does seem to hand an advantage to the team that lost the first game. But I do think it is good, the league should keep it.
Is advantage the right word? Either way, how many times after the opening round did the Celts let up after a convincing win in the playoffs? Seemed like after almost every win. And similar story last night. So, they still have work to do in this department.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Grant was phenomenal. Seems like a small thing but the sidestep opens up so much for him. If you have a great catch and shoot guy who struggles off the dribble, it’s not too hard to render him less effective by running him off the first look.

We’re still in small sample territory but 1 dribble shots account for over 10% of his fga this year, up from just under 4% last year, and he’s hitting them at 38%. He hit around 37% of them last year but it’s the volume/comfort that is critical here. He’s much more comfortable taking that one dribble three this year.

He’s also shooting better and more often inside the arc after 2 dribbles (6.3% of fga at 63% > 10.6% of fga at 69.2%). His overall 2p% is up from 57% last year to 65%. He only takes about 2 shots per game inside the arc but it’s nice to know a Grant pumpfake is less likely to be a wasted possession this year.

It’s a classic Avery Bradley-style “improve one or two key things” role player upgrade.

Also, this is purely anecdotal but he seems more immune to the run of play. In other words he seems more comfortable now taking big shots when things aren’t going great or the other team is on a run. He hits a bunch of “answer” shots last night, the kind of shots that can be really backbreaking for an opponent because they’re coming from a role player.
 
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joe dokes

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I thought one thing that hurt the Celtics was that Tatum really tried to force his own offense in the 4th Q. Unsuccessfully, most of the time.
I understand that sometimes, players at his level need to "get going" or whatever it is, and who knows, it might work most of the time, but it looked to me like JT stalled whatever offensive cohesion the Celtics were managing to grind out in the 4th.

Miami is good. Butler was insane. Foul trouble was an issue. On to Brooklyn. Vaughn is not Spoelstra.
 

benhogan

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Not sure what kind of product the NBA wants, but the refs blew the whistle all night. It made the game a half-court slogfest. Exactly what Miami wanted. It also sent JT, Horford, White, Lowry, Bam, and Dedmon to the bench for periods in the first half (throwing off Celtic rotations)

CJM should continue to rotate Brogdon, White, Hauser throughout the game. We've had 3 OT games and in all 3 he has barely made a move from Q4/OT. It's been the same group, and they got stale as @Eddie Jurak noted above.

Sandcastle washed out to sea. They'll learn from this loss & the upcoming road trip will tell us more.
 

Tudor Fever

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CJM should continue to rotate Brogdon, White, Hauser throughout the game. We've had 3 OT games and in all 3 he has barely made a move from Q4/OT. It's been the same group, and they got stale as @Eddie Jurak noted above.
This is a problem and needs to be fixed. Yesterday, there were zero substutions from the middle of of Q4 to the end of OT. Why not rotate in Brogdon, White, and/or Hauser, even if only for a play or two? Instead they were all glued to the bench while 5 probably exhausted players were performing at a subpar level.
 

Koufax

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Agreed. It is a glaring problem. Miami was subbing in OT, but not the Celtics.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Is advantage the right word? Either way, how many times after the opening round did the Celts let up after a convincing win in the playoffs? Seemed like after almost every win. And similar story last night. So, they still have work to do in this department.
I think advantage is the correct word. Teams that lose will look for adjustments to make; teams that win will just stick to what worked the previous game. Thus, an advantage.
 

tims4wins

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I think advantage is the correct word. Teams that lose will look for adjustments to make; teams that win will just stick to what worked the previous game. Thus, an advantage.
Would you use the same word in the middle of a playoff series? That the losing team in the previous game has an advantage going into the next game? Maybe you would. Just curious.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I think advantage is the correct word. Teams that lose will look for adjustments to make; teams that win will just stick to what worked the previous game. Thus, an advantage.
Agreed. I didn’t have time to dig into this more in the gambling thread last night t and need to watch how these regular season “mini-series” go but in general the losing team is going to have adjustment, motivational and sense of urgency advantages. We’ve seen this for years with the playoff zig-zag series results. We saw all of these factors play out last night.
 

GreenMonster49

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Agreed. It is a glaring problem. Miami was subbing in OT, but not the Celtics.
Many of Miami’s substitutions were bringing Herro in for offense (or off for defense)—the Celtics didn´t have a similar issue.
 

dhellers

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Not sure what kind of product the NBA wants, but the refs blew the whistle all night. It made the game a half-court slogfest. Exactly what Miami wanted. It also sent JT, Horford, White, Lowry, Bam, and Dedmon to the bench for periods in the first half (throwing off Celtic rotations)

CJM should continue to rotate Brogdon, White, Hauser throughout the game. We've had 3 OT games and in all 3 he has barely made a move from Q4/OT. It's been the same group, and they got stale as @Eddie Jurak noted above.

Sandcastle washed out to sea. They'll learn from this loss & the upcoming road trip will tell us more.
The reluctance of coaches to substitute in OTs is endemic. Like they are more afraid of the chance that a sub makes a mistake then of near certainty that fatigue renders the closing unit getting more and more mediocre.

In particular, AL and Grant were not BOTH needed defensively (other than Bam who does Miami have that is an inside threat), and when Al's minutes add up his efficiency often drops.

In particular, Butler hunted him knowing that Al is just not quick enough to really bother his fadeaway. A fresh Brogdon, even one having an off night, could of been better at both ends!?
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Would you use the same word in the middle of a playoff series? That the losing team in the previous game has an advantage going into the next game? Maybe you would. Just curious.
I don't if I would call going down 1-0 in a playoff game an "advantage" but I would imagine that it's pretty difgicult for the winning coach to change anything that resulted in a win.
 

slamminsammya

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Jaylen was the player of the game last night, but I still was bothered by the number of turnovers he had just forcing the ball into traffic. How many times does he have to see that happen against the same team before he makes an adjustment?
 

Imbricus

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I only saw the first half, but was surprised at how slow and sluggish the Celtics offense often looked. They'd burn 11 seconds just getting the ball a little over halfcourt, and not seem to care. The ball wasn't zipping around. When they passed and drove, they were susceptible to turnovers. Miami's defense collapsed well on drives, and it seemed Heat defenders were leaning the right way to intercept passes, as if they knew what was coming. The turnovers really stung. The officiating stunk, but it didn't seem to favor either team, except of course it slowed the game down, and that worked to the Heat's advantage.

I was surprised after the game to learn that Herro is only 33% from 3 this season; he seems to shoot about 60% against us. Just one of those things.

I agree wholeheartedly that this will be good film to analyze. The Celtics have some stuff to figure out. Talentwise, I think they are better than the Heat, but Miami is a very smartly coached team, and that can count for a lot.

One last thing: Mazz has to rest his starters better. He might be worse than Ime. As others noted, why not give Pritchard a little run, especially in a game where they keep turning the ball over? Pritchard has a good assist-to-turnover ratio and has been a good spark off the bench this year.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Many of Miami’s substitutions were bringing Herro in for offense (or off for defense)—the Celtics didn´t have a similar issue.
Yeah every loss or bad stretch isn’t bc someone is always “gassed.” The “gassed” defense created 3 TO in overtime including drawing a charge. Although the naysayers can point to Mazzulla’s 0-3 OT record.
 

The Mort Report

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Jaylen was the player of the game last night, but I still was bothered by the number of turnovers he had just forcing the ball into traffic. How many times does he have to see that happen against the same team before he makes an adjustment?
+1. I feel like you can see it's going to happen in advance too. I can't quite put my finger on it, but I think he tries to over dribble the ball when he doesn't have to and dribbles into people, not around them like Tatum does. He so friggin athletic he doesn't need that extra dribble after his first move. He needs to think more north-south, make one move, protect the ball and get downhill to the rim. We see him do it all the time, he just gets too cute a couple times a game for no reason. To me they are like the bad Marcus passes, don't force it if you don't have to
 

benhogan

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Yeah every loss or bad stretch isn’t bc someone is always “gassed.” The “gassed” defense created 3 TO in overtime including drawing a charge. Although the naysayers can point to Mazzulla’s 0-3 OT record.
are there any "CJM naysayers"?

It's fair to point out that Boston slowed the attack down in Q4/OT in 3 games along with substitutions coming to a halt. Not sure if they were gassed, wanted to slow it down or were fine with ISO ball. BUT Boston has the best bench/rotation in the NBA and that should be exploited. CJM & Staff will review and get better. IME had head coaching growing pains his first few months also.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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There are coach naysayers all over this board. I wonder how some of those people would stand up to their own scrutiny - or perhaps that's what is happening via projection.

In any event, if people are going to complain about Mazzulla's time out and substitution decisions, their case would be bolstered by data or at least something more than - "I would have done it much differently than the person who won 18 of the first 23 NBA games they have head coached". Because they are, in effect, arguing they could do better with no obvious basis other than "trust me".

Otherwise, the default is that complaint comes from one our fellow basement dwellers who has never coached beyond youth sports and isn't schooled in what stats say about optimal usage etc.
 

benhogan

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Professional coaches make substitution errors, players miss and GMs make bad trades/signings.

SoSH is a good place to discuss them, sorry if that upsets people
 

Imbricus

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On substitutions, for starters, no Heat player last night played more than 39 minutes. Three Celtics played at least 41, with Jaylen at 46. I suspect that Tatum would have probably been close to 46 too had he not run into foul trouble early. Is that a problem? Could that have contributed a little to the rash of turnovers? Not sure, but I think it's a subject worth talking about.
 
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wade boggs chicken dinner

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Just someone speculating. The guy from which this was sourced - Greg Sylvander - also had this tweet in response to the point that GW is a FA at the end of the season:

"He is indeed a free agent and that is also something to watch down the line if nothing materializes via trade"​

View: https://twitter.com/GregSylvander/status/1599139801306832897?cxt=HHwWgoCpsafLpLEsAAAA
 

HomeRunBaker

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Jan 15, 2004
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are there any "CJM naysayers"?

It's fair to point out that Boston slowed the attack down in Q4/OT in 3 games along with substitutions coming to a halt. Not sure if they were gassed, wanted to slow it down or were fine with ISO ball. BUT Boston has the best bench/rotation in the NBA and that should be exploited. CJM & Staff will review and get better. IME had head coaching growing pains his first few months also.
Late 4Q and OT if tight games are always going to slow to a crawl due to the combination of each possession carries more significance as the defense intensifies. This isn’t new at all.
 

benhogan

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Late 4Q and OT if tight games are always going to slow to a crawl due to the combination of each possession carries more significance as the defense intensifies. This isn’t new at all.
Agreed. I think the Refs also had a hand in slowing the game down last night.

It also slows down in the playoffs. Good tape for CJM and practice for the players for when it counts. They'll make some adjustments
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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On substitutions, for starters, no Heat player last night played more than 39 minutes. Three Celtics played at least 41, with Jaylen at 46. I suspect that Tatum would have probably been close to 46 too had he not run into foul trouble early. Is that a problem? Could that contributed a little to the rash of turnovers? Not sure, but I think it's a subject worth talking about.
Its not the subject that's the problem. Its that most of us struggle to put coherent posts together but have no problem randomly firing off a take that the coach is doing it all wrong because we say so. No analysis is being done. Its a generally worthless exercise.

This is a sports message board. We should feel free to discuss things. An appeal for people to support their positions with actual information doesn't seem unreasonable and was the basis for membership when I joined.

"Trust me, I watch a lot of sports" may be a compelling argument for some but it seems silly here. Show us why timeout usage or MPG or rotations are an issue and tell us what they cost - I am certain people can come up with plenty of legitimate criticisms of Mazzulla or any coach. But absent data, these posts are the equivalent of a sports radio call in transcript.

Edit: Your post is a perfect example of what I am talking about. You put some information in it, compared it to another set of data and asked a valid question. If everyone can do that, we can have a better discussion about usage patterns and coaching strategy imo.
 
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SteveF

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https://nbarotations.info is a pretty good heat map type source for team/player rotations if someone wants to check how the Celtics' rotation works compared to the rotations of other teams, or how the rotations have worked for a player this season compared to past seasons.
 

Imbricus

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Its not the subject that's the problem. Its that most of us struggle to put coherent posts together but have no problem randomly firing off a take that the coach is doing it all wrong because we say so. No analysis is being done. Its a generally worthless exercise.
Eh, I think you're overstating this a bit. (1) I agree that we should be making more analytical, data-driven posts, and also that I could've used better phrasing above, and will watch that in the future. (2) But some areas have more analytics/data than others: we can break down three-point shooting in a variety of ways, but I haven't seen that much analytics around player substitutions/minutes played per game, and the impact on a team's effectiveness or winning percentage.

Show us why timeout usage or MPG or rotations are an issue and tell us what they cost
Timeout usage, sure, you can show whether it's an issue or not, and what it costs. Whether rotations are an issue and what that costs? Not sure how you show that. Jaylen gets injured late in a game because he's arguably playing 4 minutes more than he should? Would that be a cost? Or more like freak luck? Or Smart battles a nagging injury longer because he's playing an extra 3.4 mpg? Or a Celtic looks gassed in a certain game -- how do you quantify that? Or how do you quantify the impact of a substitution that was never made?

I think the signal-to-noise ratio is really pretty good on these boards. But not everything is data/analytics. Just do a search on the "eye test."

Anyway, not trying to turn this into an argument. I think you did make some very good points. Further, I'm letting the topic go here (so if you want to call me a silly, uninformed twit, go ahead, and there'll be no rebuttal, hah!).
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Timeout usage, sure, you can show whether it's an issue or not, and what it costs. Whether rotations are an issue and what that costs? Not sure how you show that. Jaylen gets injured late in a game because he's arguably playing 4 minutes more than he should? Would that be a cost? Or more like freak luck? Or Smart battles a nagging injury longer because he's playing an extra 3.4 mpg? Or a Celtic looks gassed in a certain game -- how do you quantify that? Or how do you quantify the impact of a substitution that was never made?
I know you've tapped out but those are very tricky questions to ask and answer as you are well aware. My response would be that we can and should be asking if coaching decisions contributed to those outcomes. What we should not do is conclude that they either were or were not because its almost impossible to prove.

Back to MPG, I have a bias here and its that these people are generally young, healthy and they are built for hooping. Fatigue is a real issue for NBA players but it really feels like some of the complaints about the C's workload here aren't based on anything other than personal preference. Per your post and the link I shared, its clear that fatigue/game load contribute to injuries but how much is an open question. Maybe we can at least wait for a bad outcome before critiquing workload.